Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Miska on February 17, 2010, 07:49:03 PM

Title: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Miska on February 17, 2010, 07:49:03 PM
Would it be possible to allow trim changes on the ground but not in flight?  This would simulate being able to rig an aircraft for hands off flight at a certain speed, but the inability to change the rigging in flight.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: guncrasher on February 17, 2010, 11:12:15 PM
arena is not even here and already thinking of ways to game the game

semp
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: FLS on February 18, 2010, 04:16:33 AM
I expect trim will be enabled in flight to simulate holding your stick in position with bungee cords.   :D
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Miska on February 18, 2010, 07:24:12 PM
Guncrasher,  I don't understand.  How is this gaming the game?
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: guncrasher on February 18, 2010, 08:44:21 PM
I have no idea, I blame the two beers I drank  :D.

semp
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Miska on February 18, 2010, 09:10:56 PM
Ok, thanks :)
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Krusty on February 18, 2010, 09:42:06 PM
I doubt you'll adjust anything, really. The speeds you're flying at have a whopping range of 75mph from stall to max speed in many cases... Not really much need for trim back then (heck, getting it in the air was a feat unto itself!).
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Miska on February 19, 2010, 06:32:33 PM
Contemporary accounts make it clear that rigging the aircraft for hands off flying at a preferred speed was a big part of pre-flight.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: FLS on February 19, 2010, 06:37:16 PM
Contemporary accounts make it clear that rigging the aircraft for hands off flying at a preferred speed was a big part of pre-flight.

I'm sure that helped when changing the ammo drum on the top wing.   :D
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Miska on February 19, 2010, 09:00:36 PM
Exactly :)

Disabling guns during a reloading period would also greatly add to the game.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 19, 2010, 09:10:14 PM
I bet combat trim and all the other bells and whistles will be available.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: fyvsix on February 19, 2010, 09:21:47 PM
I bet combat trim and all the other bells and whistles will be available.

Unfortunate, I think this will be the case. Trim has no place in a WW1 sim and acually detracts from the character of the machines.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: FLS on February 19, 2010, 09:46:59 PM
Nobody will be forced to use trim or the map or the radio etc.   :D
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Nemisis on February 20, 2010, 02:25:53 AM
I doubt they had maps showing exact locations of all enemy bases in WW2, so stop whining  :devil.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 20, 2010, 08:33:56 AM
The Sopwith Camel would start to loop if the pilot left the controls in the neutral position.  Not having that tendency would be a very different kind of "selective realism" than the standard GPS maps and radios.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: FLS on February 20, 2010, 08:46:06 AM
The Sopwith Camel would start to loop if the pilot left the controls in the neutral position. 
Would that be at all speeds?
It would be interesting to see a reference for that.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 20, 2010, 08:59:03 AM
Obviously not at stall speeds.

There's been a number of references to this cited over at the RoF forums.  I'll see if I can dig one up.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: BaldEagl on February 20, 2010, 08:59:11 AM
Unfortunate, I think this will be the case. Trim has no place in a WW1 sim and acually detracts from the character of the machines.

Neither does autopilot but I bet it's there as a consession to gameplay.  How else are you going to get a beverage break in?
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 20, 2010, 09:01:40 AM
(http://premium1.uploadit.org/Federico//Sopwith-Camel-Macmillan_02.jpg)
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Miska on February 20, 2010, 09:02:38 AM
FLS, I've already decided to use trim only on the ground, obviously, and not to use voice. I was just wondering to what extent these design elements would be included in the game.  I really don't mind if they aren't, since they are easily implemented by the individual player.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 20, 2010, 09:04:55 AM
Neither does autopilot but I bet it's there as a consession to gameplay.  How else are you going to get a beverage break in?

Again, auto-level for beer runs doesn't neuter the handling of the aircraft in a fight.  At least with WW2 aircraft nearly all of them had trimmable elevators.  The only WW1 aircraft I can name with elevator trim is the SE5a.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Simba on February 20, 2010, 07:00:12 PM
"Trim has no place in a WW1 sim and acually detracts from the character of the machines."

Not lateral or directional trim, certainly, but it should be included in those aircraft that were fitted with pitch trim such as the SE5a and Bristol F2B Fighter.

Anaxagoras, that description of the Camel's flying characteristics is very good - what book is it from, and where might I find a copy? I'm fortunate enough to own Bridgman and Stewart's 'The Clouds Remember', which is informative but not so detailed when it comes to Sopwith's Humpy One.

 :cool:
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: FLS on February 20, 2010, 07:17:15 PM
I can understand an individual A/C being tail heavy but why would they make them all like that? What was the upside?
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Bronk on February 20, 2010, 08:52:22 PM
I can understand an individual A/C being tail heavy but why would they make them all like that? What was the upside?
You wouldn't need a lot of force to pull back on the stick.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: FLS on February 21, 2010, 01:53:11 AM
It makes sense to set the tailplane incidence to balance the weight of the engine, guns, and pilot, all in the front third of the A/C, but it's silly to think they'd get it wrong. I expect it was tail heavy under some conditions but was rigged to fly in trim most of the time.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 21, 2010, 10:06:46 AM
It makes sense to set the tailplane incidence to balance the weight of the engine, guns, and pilot, all in the front third of the A/C, but it's silly to think they'd get it wrong. I expect it was tail heavy under some conditions but was rigged to fly in trim most of the time.

They didn't "get it wrong."  I read of an account by a man who ferried a Spad VII to the old Rhinebeck aerodrome, and at the end of the short flight he was exhausted without having performed any stressful maneuvers.

Here is another passage from the same source:

(http://premium1.uploadit.org/Federico//Sopwith-Camel-Macmillan-Notes-2.jpg)

From what I've experienced in RoF, if they did their homework correctly, the hands-off altitude would be well over 12k ft.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 21, 2010, 10:22:19 AM
Anaxagoras, that description of the Camel's flying characteristics is very good - what book is it from, and where might I find a copy? I'm fortunate enough to own Bridgman and Stewart's 'The Clouds Remember', which is informative but not so detailed when it comes to Sopwith's Humpy One.

The original post says the passage was written by Norman Macmillan, but didn't mention which of his books it is from.

I suppose this whole tail heavy discussion is just more ammunition for you and the SE5, eh? ;)
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: Wmaker on February 21, 2010, 05:30:44 PM
I bet combat trim and all the other bells and whistles will be available.

While I tend to think so too, I really really hope trims will be modelled only where they existed. So far we haven't seen any trim indicators in the screenshots but they might still be there somewhere. We shall see. :)
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: FLS on February 21, 2010, 05:36:41 PM
They didn't "get it wrong."  I read of an account by a man who ferried a Spad VII to the old Rhinebeck aerodrome, and at the end of the short flight he was exhausted without having performed any stressful maneuvers.

Here is another passage from the same source:

(http://premium1.uploadit.org/Federico//Sopwith-Camel-Macmillan-Notes-2.jpg)

From what I've experienced in RoF, if they did their homework correctly, the hands-off altitude would be well over 12k ft.

The information you supplied verifies my statement that it was rigged to fly in trim most of the time. Assuming of course they were usually flying at a reasonable altitude for a war zone. Thanks.  :aok

That Spad 7 stopped at my dad's airfield on it's way to Rhinebeck, he has a grass strip and the Spad has a wooden tailskid so they were avoiding concrete runways. You probably know that from reading the account. My dad had an opportunity to fly it and turned it down. I still can't believe it. When I saw it at Rhinebeck it had a flat and the 2 volunteers trying to fix it kept pinching the tube so it looked like it was going to miss the show. I was able to help them out, it's the same as fixing a bicycle tire, so the Spad was able to fly that day. If you have a link to the ferry account I'd enjoy reading it.
Title: Re: Trim on WW1 Aircraft
Post by: LesterBoffo on February 22, 2010, 02:37:06 PM
I doubt you'll adjust anything, really. The speeds you're flying at have a whopping range of 75mph from stall to max speed in many cases... Not really much need for trim back then (heck, getting it in the air was a feat unto itself!).

 Well there were several fighters and two seaters that had elevator trim wheels, if not also rudder trim, in the cockpit.

 The Sopwith Tripehound and Half Strutter, and the Royal Air Factory SE5, SE5a and RE8.  So yeah, if the game allows for it, it should be modeled in these aircraft.  R. Collishaw was quoted as saying that the Half Strutter was very nice to fly in with your hands in your Sidcot pockets, on cold days.  Not that we have any of these worries, mind you.