Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: fscott on February 10, 2001, 02:44:00 AM
-
The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.
fscott
-
I wonder how many of those Hellcat pilots wrote letters to Kawanishi designers and complained about the unrealistic uberness of the Niki.
fscott
-
Build it, and they (I) will shoot it down. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Over Iwo Jima, Saburo Sakai returned to the cockpit of his Zero, minus an eye lost in combat months earlier.
He shot down 3 F6F's, and was then surrounded by a further 15 F6F's which he managed to evade until they returned to base.
He landed without a single bullet hole in his aircraft, even though he had been subjected to continual firing passes from the F6F's during their engagement.
So, fscott, can we infer from this that the Zero was a better aircraft than the F6F?
In fact, are you inferring anything at all? If you're saying that the George was in experienced hands the equal of any Allied fighter, then of course I agree with you.
------------------
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 02-10-2001).]
-
Originally posted by fscott:
The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.
fscott
Did muto claim to have shot down 4 F6Fs, or do Navy records indicate four were lost? The reason I ask should be obvious. Japanese Navy and Army pilots usually overclaimed by a factor of 4. I can present you with episode after episode where the Japanese claimed to have shot 4 or more American fighters, and NONE actually failed to return to their base or carrier. Even Sakai's total has be revised down to about 21 victories. On the other hand, post war investigation has revealed that U.S. pilots overclaimed by an average factor of 1.5 to 1. The Russians were almost as ambitious as the Japanese, having claimed three times more Luftwaffe aircraft than actually served on the eastern front. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
One final point. The N1K2 was just about 100 mph slower than the P-47N, which was appearing in ever greater numbers over Japan in the last 5 months of the war. More importantly, the P-47N made its best speed at an altitude barely attainable by the George, much less being able to fight up there. The same goes for Ki-100, which is also highly over-rated by most Japanese fighter fans. This fighter was no faster than the Ki-61, nor was there any improvement in its overall flight envelope.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by fscott:
He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.
fscott
In AH, he would had catch them when runing away and shot them down till they slpit into various heading to flee.
-
All that N1k would have to do is get those planes into a vertical fight frenchy. The N1k can do 2 or 3 consecutive immelmans and GAIN speed in the process. Gawd knows what mucked up antimatter drive that thing has.
-
It gets better widewing-
This story came up quite awhile ago on the UBB and Pyro plugged it up quite well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It seems that several memoirs have noted that the story of that Nik were fabricated. In fact the nik was accompanied by other fighters and the TOTAL kill record of the engagement was attributed to the Nik to boost it's importance. Remember this was fair to the Japanese- all their kills were counted by squadron not by individual pilots.
If you do a search of the UBB for Vermillion and Pyro and the Nik2 one of the threads will have the quotes from the memoirs in question supplied by Pyro.
BTW about Soviet kill stats you are in error Widewing. Soviet stats are actually one of the closest to reality than any other service. The issue here was that most translations didn't account for "group kills" leading to more kill claims than german planes flown. In reality when more than one plane was engaged and no-one could claim or confirm who actually destroyed the enemy the pilots involved recieved a "group kill" that did not count towards their ace tally. This is actually quite fair as it is like the Probables in western counts, but when misunderstood would seem to make the VVS overclaiming horribly.
------------------
If your in range, so is the enemy.
(http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/sorrow/sorrow.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sorrow[S=A] (edited 02-10-2001).]
-
Originally posted by fscott:
The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.
fscott
So? Saburo Sakai fought, alone, 15 Hellcats over Okinawa, and he survived.
Sure, he did not claim 4 kills...but he was half blind.
And in a A6M5
We all know the A6M5 was the best fighter on the pacific theater, right?
<G>
-
<<<The N1k can do 2 or 3 consecutive immelmans and GAIN speed in the process.>>>
Film, please!
ra
-
I can do endless loops in the AH La5 and gain altitude while I do it. It must be uber. Lets have it nerfed. No aircraft can do that until the F-15. Everybody knows it. These aircraft were all poswered by two-stroke lawn-mower engines. Everybody knows it. They could barely get off the ground. Everybody knows that too. When they did, they were almost certain to fall apart.
Jeez, don't you guys ever stop whining?
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
-
Originally posted by ra:
<<<The N1k can do 2 or 3 consecutive immelmans and GAIN speed in the process.>>>
Film, please!
ra
Go back in this same forum, Bloom25 filmed 27 consecutive loops starting at low speed and winning altitude in each one.
People in this forum said that it was normal. I dont believe it, but if so much people says that it is OK, it must be.
BTW a plane only a bit heavier than the Spit IX, with a 2000hp engine and doesnt make any noticeable effect at the top of the loop? at barely 100mph?
Curious. But people keep on sayint is OK, so it must be ok.
-
No RAM, if you go back and look at the film you will not see what you are claiming.
First off, the person who made the film, didn't start looping at normal minimum rotation speed like you think. They waited until around 250mph+ before they allowed the N1K2 to rotate off the runway. This is very important.
Plus they used an elevated runway (3k or 5k I can't remember), and once they were off the end of the runway, and did several loops their altitude actually dropped below that of the starting base altitude (ie if they would have started at sea level they would have crashed before completing that number of loops). Which is another point to consider.
Lets keep the facts straight and the propaganda to a minimum.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 02-10-2001).]
-
Originally posted by Vermillion:
No RAM, if you go back and look at the film you will not see what you are claiming.
First off, the person who made the film, didn't start looping at normal minimum rotation speed like you think. They waited until around 250mph+ before they allowed the N1K2 to rotate off the runway. This is very important.
Lets keep the facts straight and the propaganda to a minimum.
Me? the things straight ME!?
he pulled off the runway at 150-175mph.
GET THE THINGS STRAIGHT; VERMILLION!
<G>
-
On the issue of consecutive looping and gaining alt... Would you expect a plane to be able to maintain a constant speed at the bottom of the loop? Maybe even pick up a couple mph? If this was the case, even if looping, it is gaining E. Thus it should be able to climb while looping.
Now, the issue of 3 consecutive immelmans and still gaining speed is completely different. Like someone said above... lets see film.
AKDejaVu
-
Originally posted by Vermillion:
No RAM, if you go back and look at the film you will not see what you are claiming.
First off, the person who made the film, didn't start looping at normal minimum rotation speed like you think. They waited until around 250mph+ before they allowed the N1K2 to rotate off the runway. This is very important.
Plus they used an elevated runway (3k or 5k I can't remember), and once they were off the end of the runway, and did several loops their altitude actually dropped below that of the starting base altitude (ie if they would have started at sea level they would have crashed before completing that number of loops). Which is another point to consider.
Lets keep the facts straight and the propaganda to a minimum.
http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/nikidemo.ahf (http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/nikidemo.ahf)
[Verm], you guys intrigued me, so I grabbed a Niki 50% fuel offline and went for a test flight. I accelerated to 150 I think (up to you to check), I went straight up to loop it a couple of times, then I went for tailstalls, I noticed the plane was winging over but I still had control of it once nose went down (convinient).
I did a dive too from the alt I was, good acceleration, notice my start alt and end spped. I did a high G flat turn, have a look to my turn radius (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I still could be precise enought to fly under hangar. Just before landing I went vertical again and tried to spin it by applying full back pressure and rudder at the stall nose up. I could barrely achieve a starting of spin. I idled throttle and landed. It can land on a CV w/out arresting hooks for sure too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm not squeaking if it's normal or not, but it sure is a wonder plane, especially if flown by an experten.
Any coments on the film Vermillon, Ram, any1?
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
On the issue of consecutive looping and gaining alt... Would you expect a plane to be able to maintain a constant speed at the bottom of the loop? Maybe even pick up a couple mph? If this was the case, even if looping, it is gaining E. Thus it should be able to climb while looping.
Now, the issue of 3 consecutive immelmans and still gaining speed is completely different. Like someone said above... lets see film.
AKDejaVu
As I said, DejaVu, I find hard to believe that what is seen in bloom's film is believable. But almost everyone that saw it and posted in bloom's thread said it was OK. I dont say is porked, I say taht I find it hard to believe.
Frenchy, IMO (please note this is a PARTICULAR opinion), the N1K2 E retention is way too good. And I keep on saying that a plane with 2000hp and a weight comparable with that of the spit should feel the torque more strongly than what it does right now.
But I seem to be almost alone in this perception, so its clear I must be wrong.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-10-2001).]
-
Saw my film Ram? Should take care of the 250 MPH pull up and 3-5K alt argument (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:
Saw my film Ram? Should take care of the 250 MPH pull up and 3-5K alt argument (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Frenchy, I have reached the conclussion that is useless to say anything more. 90% of the people of this board thinks that the nik is OK, so if they are so sure, let them have the UFO on the MA. What is me, I run away each time I see one.
-
1 n1k is jumped by 2 P-38s and a Spitfire. N1k does 1 immelman to avoid first bouncer (P38), levels on top of immelman for a second, then does ANOTHER immelman to avoid the 2nd P-38 that bounced it (me). While I go over the top I see the n1k level again and point its nose towards me. Then he immelmans AGAIN to avoid the spitfire.
Fight ends as the 2 P-38s are shot down by the ufo and spitfire I dont know what the heck happened to it, never saw the pilot get a kill while I pulled my chute near the water.
Film? Sure, gimme a sec, ill have to lower myself to fly that crate. Gnnnn......
*Tac Last reported running naked across the runway with a paper airplane on his hand doing wooshy noises*
-
RAM, don't sweat it too much about the N1K, it won't do you any good.
Over the last few days I've been trolling through the BBS picking up the names of those who have consistently posted that there is nothing wrong with the N1K.
You'd be amazed how many of them fly at least 50% of their total sorties in the N1K2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And most of their other sorties are in the CHog (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
-
Every time I get caught be a F4U brandishing a quartet of 20mm hispano's from hell and wind up riding my piering plane while it plumates to the planet I grit my teeth and curse it's uberness...The fact of the matter is that's the way it was and sometimes the truth hurts(your ratio).
Every time I get in the N1K2-J and engage an enemy I marvel at the piss pore trajectory of the Type 99II compared to the Hispano's from hell....the truth
Every time I am the N1K2-J and dam smart P-51 pilots use's his speed advantage over me it bit's why can't he be dumb like that last guy and try and tun fight me me at 5k?!??!....
The grass is always greener that's the whole truth and nothing but the truth,sell what U will but the finding of the truth is what it is all about, moreover the realization of it and the acceptance...Learn your plane of choice(s) and use it to it's best advantage and don't whine because the other guy knows his better than U. learn it or die trying.
Brady
------------------
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwCwcDEJznXbXfCxAJfgD0a7w1sDVrWuMP28UBOabRCH339Yvya3KrR2Q8UMjrBJ)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 02-10-2001).]
-
Ironic Jekyll. Strange that someone that hasn't flown the N1K since 1.04 came out would deam himself such an expert on its flight model or killing prowess.
Typical LW.
AKDejaVu
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Ironic Jekyll. Strange that someone that hasn't flown the N1K since 1.04 came out would deam himself such an expert on its flight model or killing prowess.
Typical LW.
AKDejaVu
LOL he only says that the major part of the people yelling the N1K2 FM is correct are dedicated niki riders, and you answer this way?
typical AKDejaVu. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-10-2001).]
-
The grand champions of overclaiming have to be US Bomber gunners in Europe...almost all oversight and review (such as that applied to US fighter pilots) was removed for morale purposes...it was easier to go out and get torn to shreds if you believed you were giving as good as you got.
Also, it suited the political purposes of the bomber faction..just as the idea that Midway was won by USAAF level bombers was the standard story till after the war (Or that a lone B-17 sank the Japanese Battleship Haruna off the Phillipines in 1941..this was accepted as fact and the pilot (who did not survive the mission) deified.
They'd routinely shoot down the entire LW fighter strength in the West in a week :-)
A single 190 bursts into flame making a run through a B-17 box? Every gunner shooting at it claims and gets a kill...there's 20 LW shot down right there :-)
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 02-10-2001).]
-
I think the only big concern with the N1K2-J come from those flaps...it not only reshapes the chamber of the wing, the butterfly flaps make the N1K2, for the most part, a biplane, when extended. Two seperate flying surfaces are created once the flaps drop, and that seems like a reasonable amount of drag not being developed through manuvers.
There are a couple of things not accounted for, namely instant deployment...that didn't happen. The automatic flap system was based on AoA and speed, and took a few seconds to deploy according to speed and AoA. Second, there are some other form of flaps on N1K2 in addition to the accounted-for butterfly flaps, already worked into the flight model. It's and extra system that was not on the real one-- there were no other flap systems. I'm not sure what they are suppose to represent...as they add drag and no real lift benefits. The butterfly flaps deployed automatically for landing as well.
- Bess
-
RAM,
I can loop the La5 endlessly and gain altitude with it while I do.
Is it f****d up too?
I do fly N1K2s once in a while, but most of my kills are in the A6M5b.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
-
HA HA HA I knew when I posted that article I was gonna start another uber-Niki flame thread! HA HA HA!
So what was my point? I wonder if this had happened in AH, how many of the Hellcat pilots would come immediatley to the BBS and post about how overly-uber the Niki is. I know all about Saburo Sakai's engagements. That's because he was overly-uber.
fscott
-
I did some testing as well.
The N1K2 can maintain a 2.5k ROC, making a left-hand spiral with full right rudder, at 100mph, right off the runway, with WEP. (As a comparison the G10 can maintain a 3.0k ROC in the same situation)
From 300mph the N1K2 can make two full Immels and come out level at an avg 125mph.
Also, the N1K2 can make make 3 Immels from 300mph, albeit the last one has to be completed with a stall. It's very easy to hammerhead instead of brining the nose over after two Immels.
From 400mph the N1K2 can make 3 full Immels and come out at @ 110mph, and can the nose can usually be raised enough for an additional hammerhead. I got the nose over for a fourth Immel during one set.
This is from sea level. From 4k It can accelerate to 385mph in a 0g powerdive. Starting at sea level, the 300mph immels have an exit altitude @3.5k. From 400mph, exit altitude is 4.5k.
Using the G10 for comparison again, it's exit altitudes are generally the same, but can only make two Immels from 300mph, and two Immels and a hammerhead from 400mph. From 4k, the G10 accelerates to 370mph in 0g powerdive.
The N1K2 certainly does not gain energy in the vertical, but it has very slow bleed rate, even under constant G's. The exit speed and altitude from 300mph form sea level of a vertical eight is about 125mph and 3.5k. These are from 5-3G constant G's until the speed drops below 165mph, where this is no longer possible.
will post film later if I have time.
- Bess
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 02-10-2001).]
-
Well, tonight I was defending A49.
Got a N1k up to 8k, see an enemy n1k, 2 b17's and a B-26 at 12k (I was at 8k).
N1k dives on me I do the ufo manouver and corckskew 90 degrees UP for about 2000 ft, then dive on him (my speed was still above 200 mph), 1 ping and his wing comes off. I let him spiral down, barely under control.
I climb up to the bombers, I get the B26 with a low 12 HO, it blew apart with one short burst, keep going, see a low 17 (abot 2k below me), aim to intercept on his path, end up doing a side-pass, his guns ping me a LOT (FIRST time I've EVER experienced my plane receive so much buff lead and not blow up or lose entire components), no damage, 1 burst, B17 explodes.
2nd b17 was smoking (I had jumped it earlier in a P-38 and hit 1 of its engines, buff guns pinged me once and my p38 blew apart), so I do a High 12 pass, he pings me as I twist under him, then I pull UP b17 fills my sights, ball turret pinging me, 1 burst, hit the wing, it falls off. B17 dies
I then get jumped by an F4U, I do the magic upwards corkscrew, F4U overshoots, im at 100 mph (and no loss of control nor any problems turning my plane, which was its nose pointed to the stars), twist it downwards, see the F4U on the bottom part of his split S.. I dive after him. In no time I catch up, then hog levels and then the hog begins to outdistance me... I notice im too far from the field and let him go, immelman at 480 mph, nose back to field, speed is about 400-390 mph (it was a HARD pull on that stick).
In field I see 2 goons about to land, I kill one that was really close to ground and in the process of shooting it my stick spikes and I auger into the dirt.
So 1 n1k flown in a point-and shoot manner (except for the evasives when the n1k and chog jumped me) not only screwed a coordinated field take, it got 1 n1k, 2 b17's 1 b26 and 1 goon and I STILL had around 300 rnds of ammo on those guns.
Its WING COMMANDER all over again! LONG LIVE THE N1KHAI! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
49 fell later on with a heavy cap that faced 2 defenders only.
The n1k has SERIOUS issues in this game. I dont know what it is, I dont know if the plane really was like that or not, but I know that in AH it is THE ride of choice to hone those X-Wing skills.
-
Not to add to the flame or whining but folks the nik will with 100% fuel and a 150mph take off speed will do consecutive loops.
By no means do I feel this is correct. The aerobatic champions we have today with power and lift a WWII fighter has never seen wont do this.
Yes I can post a film doing this in the MA it is very easy to do.
------------------
http://www.cornhusker.net/~predator (http://www.cornhusker.net/~predator)
-
Oh dear DejaVu, you've really put your foot in it this time.
You see gentle readers, Dejavu has obviously had a look at my stats to come up with the above little gem. He finishes by saying 'Typical LW'.
So DejaVu, be honest. You looked at my stats. Which aircraft did I fly the most in 1.04 and 1.05? Hmmm? How about, second most common ride? You'll find LW iron well down the list (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Typical AKDejaVu. When he has nothing coherent to say, he doesn't attack the message, he attacks the messenger.
Deja, I've often flown the N1K in the training arena, usually when giving a lesson or taking part in FFA. It helps to be flying an aircraft with the turn capability of a Spitfire, the guns of a CHog and the acceleration of a 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But I won't fly it in the MA. I would NEVER want anyone in the MA to think me a N1K flyer!
So Deja, now that you've proven yourself an idiot, you want to keep going? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 02-11-2001).]
-
Actually Reaper, the aerobatic champs have nowhere near the kind of power that the N1K2 or most of the AH fighters possess. Furthermore a 150 mph takeoff speed is ridiculously high for a WW2 fighter or a modern acro bird.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-11-2001).]
-
Originally posted by funked:
Actually Reaper, the aerobatic champs have nowhere near the kind of power that the N1K2 or most of the AH fighters possess. Furthermore a 150 mph takeoff speed is ridiculously high for a WW2 fighter or a modern acro bird.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-11-2001).]
Nor do the modern acro birds have anything near the weight of a WW2 fighter, right funked?
------------------
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
-
Hey dudes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I've taken the f6f and N1k up, built a little speed and then done two consecutive negative g loops, without hitting the ground, starting at 100agl.
How 'bout that? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Tried it in G10 and A5, dinnae work, but might be me.
------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"
-
Santa are you talking outside loop here? Pushing the stick forward from 100 AGL and looping?
-
As 4 Wide's claim that Jap pilot's overclaimed by a factor of 4, that is an over-generalisation.The fact is, that because 4 most of WW2 kill credits were shared by the unit & not by individuals, it has become very complicated 4 historians 2 divine various IJNAF & IJAAF aces' scores.However, there has been a lot of work done in the last 10 yrs, and a much clearer picture has emerged.Some scores have been significantly diminished, by up to 4 times, whilst others have barely changed.One thing is certain - Sakai's score hasn't been revised down to 21 or 22 kills.Most historians still believe his score stands closer to 60.There r several excellent books which cover WW2 Jap aces & a great one to start with which is easy 2 buy and is a great primer on the subject is Osprey's Aircraft Of The Aces - #22 "Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45" & #13 "Imperial Japanese Army Airforce Aces 1937-45". I'm sure u have probably already heard of them, as most simmers seem to own at least 1 or 2 of the series.
As 4 the N1K2-J's handling, it does seem overly uber, but as I've never flown one, I can't make a definitive comment on the subject (unlike some of the "experts" on this thread).The auto combat-flap system which used a manometer 2 measure speed & AoA was simple, yet an engineering marvel at the time.It does appear that all things being equal (which they never are), an N1K2-J could run rings around any late-war Allied fighter.OTH, whether it could do it 2 the extent that Shiden-Kai's do in AH is highly debatable.Since the George's legion of mechanical probs aren't modelled in AH, that also adds 2 the AH N1K's credit ledger.
My suggestion is this.Why doesn't AH model the N1K1-J? I'm talking about the early model N1K1-J with the outboard Type 99's in pods as well as fuselage mounted 7.92mm light MG's,(the vast majority of N1K1-J's were the"'stock' model) not later models which had the same armament as the N1K2-J.By all accounts, whilst the 2-J Shiden-Kai was superior in vert & horizontal turns in comparison 2 Allied a/c like the F6F & F4U, the 1-J Shiden has been constantly described as being roughly equal 2 the F6F.The 1-J Shiden's outboard podded cannons added considerably 2 drag, making it even slower than the 2-J Shiden-Kai, as well as affecting its maneuvrability.The 1-J still had the auto combat-flaps, but the extra drag experienced by the Shiden as has been mentioned had an eefect on performance and handling.
Having the N1K1-J modelled would allow the N1K2-J 2 be perked.Does that sound like a bad idea? I dunno, I'm just suggesting it. I am a fan of being as realistic as possible in a sim, but we must remeber that this is a GAME, and an expensive one at that (relatively speaking).HTC has 2 try 2 be as realistic as possible whilst balancing game-play issues.
Personally, I'm sick of seeing N1K2-J's and F4U-1C's crowding the arena.They are easily the most flown a/c in AH, probably followed by the Spit.Those of us who'd like 2 fly other a/c are often frustrated by the superiority of these 2 a/c, and many finally succomb and start flying these machines themselves, feeling they have no choice.Sure, there r guys like Nath-BDP and a small number of others who can make a/c like the 190A-8 dance, but the average Joe can't compete on equal terms with Chog & N1K flying players.AH should now be called "Chogs & N1Kis High".
I don't have a huge problem with the F4U's FM, but its quad Hispanos r just way too deadly and afford the user an incredible advantage.I'm not saying that they aren't modelled realistically.I'm asking why such a deadly fighter which was built in such tiny numbers & served with such few units is readily available in AH.I keep being told, "Aw, its HiTech's favourite fighter - it's goin nowhere ;-) ", by those who love the Chog. I don't know if that's true or not. I'm not going 2 accuse HT of anything because I've never read or heard anything by him on the subject.One thing I do know is this: If HT *has* included the Chog because its his personal favourite (that's a big IF) he should remember that it's the paying customers who pay good money 4 the benefit of playing AH.The developers should fight their urge 2 include a/c which unbalance play because of their love of such a/c.
From a balance of play standpoint, there is simply no reason 2 include the Chog as an unperked fighter.The same can probably be said 4 the Shiden-Kai.Otherwise, the only other way to redress the balance would be 2 have an RPS in AH, which many ppl simply do not want.For that 2 happen, more early-mid war a/c would have 2 be modelled, and whether most AH players want 2 fly early war a/c is questionable.Whatever is done, something *has* to be done.What is the use of modelling so many different fighters when only 2 of them appear 2 be flown by about >40% of players (when Japanese players are on during peak Japanese playing hours, it seems as if >50% of AH players at that time are flying N1K's alone!)?
As 4 the Ki-100 being no better than the Ki-61, Wide doesn't know what he's talking about ;-) Even the J2M Raiden which has often been pilloried received glowing praise from an in-theatre US test-pilot who flew a J2M captured on the outskirts of Manila.He described it as (I'm not paraphrasing) basically being delightful to fly and the best Japanese fighter he had flown yet (the inference being he had quite some experience in flying different types).He commented on its high rate of climb.His only complaint was that the ailerons became very heavy above 300 mph.However, as the Raiden was designed as a fast climbing straight-line interceptor, it was thought 2 be less of a problem than it would be in fighters such as the Ki-84.
[This message has been edited by C_R_Caldwell (edited 02-11-2001).]
-
Quick quiz. What was the first fighter ever modelled in Warbirds? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
-
Hi
Ive flown the Niki a lot, maybe too much,as some of you have pointed out. Basically it just doesnt feel like the other planes in here when it comes to E-retention, I dont know why,I dont know how to test E-retention, but it simply feels wrong. Actually I think it resembles the FM of a Jane's WW2 Fighters Spit9. Thats prolly why I like to fly the niki when things dont go well in the 109, its very simmilar to the planes in Janes WW2 Fighters. They can climb very long without stalling/spinning, they can hover on the top of a stall-climb - long enough for a controlled stall, they just dont need very much forward speed to pull wild vertical and turn manouvers, exacltly like the niki. I liked Janes for a long time, but its very crappy roadkill FM got tired and uninteresting so I left. You all pretty much know that I hate the chog and the niki in AH, thats why guys, they just remind me too damn much of the cheap
unchallenging, no skill, roadkill of Janes FM and weapons. Im sad to say but I dont think HTC gives a damn about niki or chog being changed, and why should they? These planes prolly draw in and retain more $$$ customers (QUAKERS), due to their incredible ease of use/killing, than they piss off and push away existing customers (HARD CORE DEDICATED FLIGHT SIMMERS), whom I soppose AH was originally targeted at with a high-end FM. Face it the new QUAKERS $10,$15,$20, or $30 a month is the same as DEDICATED SIMMERS $30 to HTC.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
Originally posted by C_R_Caldwell:
As 4 Wide's claim that Jap pilot's overclaimed by a factor of 4, that is an over-generalisation.The fact is, that because 4 most of WW2 kill credits were shared by the unit & not by individuals, it has become very complicated 4 historians 2 divine various IJNAF & IJAAF aces' scores.However, there has been a lot of work done in the last 10 yrs, and a much clearer picture has emerged.Some scores have been significantly diminished, by up to 4 times, whilst others have barely changed.One thing is certain - Sakai's score hasn't been revised down to 21 or 22 kills.
According to at least one historian, who took the time to research the topic, Sakai's total includes 37 aircraft that were present and accounted for after Sakai said he had shot them down. The fact remains that the Japanese claimed to have shot down more than four times the losses suffered by their enemies. Typical of this is the air combat during the Nomonhan Incident in Manchuria. The Japanese claimed to have shot down or otherwise destoryed 1,260 Soviet fighters. Actual Russian losses were 207. That's an overclaiming ratio of better than 6 to 1. The Russians claimed to have dispatched 653 Japanese aircraft, with acknowledged losses being 162. This results in overclaiming by a factor of 4 to 1. The simple facts are that the Japanese had an incredibly liberal method of recognizing claims. Virtually any pilot could say he shot down an enemy and without a shred of corroborating evidence, it was accepted. Anyone with an attention span of greater duration than a gnat's fart can see that Japanese victory claims are virtually worthless as historical evidence. I should add that the Japanese Army took a severe beating at the hands of the Red Army in Manchuria.
Most historians still believe his score stands closer to 60.
Name one, please. I have a problem with a pilot who confused a Douglas SBD with an F4F, only to be nearly killed by the rear gunner. Worse, Sakai reported that he had be hit by a TBF. Don't get me wrong, Sakai was a truly honest man, and as fine a gentleman as ever there was. Nonetheless, I must wonder if he saw what he thought he saw. Honest men can be as overly optimistic as anyone else.
There r several excellent books which cover WW2 Jap aces & a great one to start with which is easy 2 buy and is a great primer on the subject is Osprey's Aircraft Of The Aces - #22 "Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45" & #13 "Imperial Japanese Army Airforce Aces 1937-45". I'm sure u have probably already heard of them, as most simmers seem to own at least 1 or 2 of the series.
[/b]
I believe that these books were compiled by Henry Sakaida, correct? Well, even Sakaida says that Japanese victory claims "cannot be taken at face value."
As 4 the Ki-100 being no better than the Ki-61, Wide doesn't know what he's talking about ;-)
[/b]
Wanna bet? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
I get paid to know what I'm talking about.
Even the J2M Raiden which has often been pilloried received glowing praise from an in-theatre US test-pilot who flew a J2M captured on the outskirts of Manila.He described it as (I'm not paraphrasing) basically being delightful to fly and the best Japanese fighter he had flown yet (the inference being he had quite some experience in flying different types).He commented on its high rate of climb.His only complaint was that the ailerons became very heavy above 300 mph.However, as the Raiden was designed as a fast climbing straight-line interceptor, it was thought 2 be less of a problem than it would be in fighters such as the Ki-84.
Both the Ki-100 and the J2M were outstanding aircraft by the standards of late 1941. By early 1945, both were utterly obsolete when held up to such American fighters such as the P-47N, P-51H, F4U-4, F7F and F8F, all of which were coming on line or were already in combat service. Let's face facts, the Ki-100 was barely equal to a Battle of Britain era Bf 109E, much less being able to cope with the latest superlative hardware being fielded against Japan by the Allies.
My regards,
Widewing
-
What exactly do you have against the Japanase? Be honest now....
-
Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:
Originally posted by Vermillion:
No RAM, if you go back and look at the film you will not see what you are claiming.
First off, the person who made the film, didn't start looping at normal minimum rotation speed like you think. They waited until around 250mph+ before they allowed the N1K2 to rotate off the runway. This is very important.
Plus they used an elevated runway (3k or 5k I can't remember), and once they were off the end of the runway, and did several loops their altitude actually dropped below that of the starting base altitude (ie if they would have started at sea level they would have crashed before completing that number of loops). Which is another point to consider.
Lets keep the facts straight and the propaganda to a minimum.
http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/nikidemo.ahf (http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/nikidemo.ahf)
[Verm], you guys intrigued me, so I grabbed a Niki 50% fuel offline and went for a test flight. I accelerated to 150 I think (up to you to check), I went straight up to loop it a couple of times, then I went for tailstalls, I noticed the plane was winging over but I still had control of it once nose went down (convinient).
I did a dive too from the alt I was, good acceleration, notice my start alt and end spped. I did a high G flat turn, have a look to my turn radius (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I still could be precise enought to fly under hangar. Just before landing I went vertical again and tried to spin it by applying full back pressure and rudder at the stall nose up. I could barrely achieve a starting of spin. I idled throttle and landed. It can land on a CV w/out arresting hooks for sure too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm not squeaking if it's normal or not, but it sure is a wonder plane, especially if flown by an experten.
Any coments on the film Vermillon, Ram, any1?
[/B]
I didn't read this whole thing so someone else may have done this. I tryed it in the N1K and got the same results. I tryed it in the 109F-4 no luck. I tryed it in the P-38 and did it. 50% fuel, wep, 150 mph, off the runway, and used flaps coming over the top. It just got easyer after the first loop. I had to try it a couple of times. The secret to all of them is not to pull back to quick at first. You will build a couple miles per hour as you start up the loop. I got no film but you guys can try it. It's not to hard. It looks like if I played with the Spit IX and the La5 more I might get them to do it also. The N1K is easy compared to the others. The 109G10 will almost do the first loop. I tryed it a bit but I don't think it would do a perfect loop. It's close. Maybe if you really played with it.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-11-2001).]
-
Jimdandy.. I did the same thing with the Zeke and the 109F-4. As a matter of fact, I have yet to find a plane I can't do it with.
I have yet to see any evidence of N1k uberness. Sure its a good plane, but it just doesn't do anything that other planes don't do. It doesn't have some kind of magical energy bank and it doesn't turn instantly. It is just a plane... though somewhere near the top of the food chain.
AKDejaVu
-
I read an excellent article last year that was completly about Japanese over claiming in the Solomons. According to that article the overclaiming was systemic and had a very negative effect on the Japanese campaign against Henderson field. The Japanese were sure they had whiped out the Americans several times and consequently often never applied the force required to do the job.
I have recently read somewhere that the Japanese pilots claim to have shot down 4 hellcats in a Niki was found to be false and that no Planes were infact lost by the US unit in question. Ill try to remember where I saw that.
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Jimdandy.. I did the same thing with the Zeke and the 109F-4. As a matter of fact, I have yet to find a plane I can't do it with.
I have yet to see any evidence of N1k uberness. Sure its a good plane, but it just doesn't do anything that other planes don't do. It doesn't have some kind of magical energy bank and it doesn't turn instantly. It is just a plane... though somewhere near the top of the food chain.
AKDejaVu
Yep. I think if I wanted to spend the time messing with it I could get the other planes I tried to do it. I think the N1K is nicer to try that in than the others. The plane shines on AH because it was a great aircraft at low to medium alt's. In WWII was at a disadvantage because US bombers operated at alt's that were out of it's optimal operating conditions. When it was operating against US CV based aircraft it was great. They scream about the N1K I will hate to hear it when the Ki-84 shows up. I agree that it is one of the best planes on here but it can definitely be shot down. It's biggest advantage is the 20mm snap shot like the C-hog. It has a lot of fire power. But I can get the 30/20mm combo on the G-10 and have a lot of fire power. For that matter I've been flying the 109F-4 with the 20mm gondolas and it pops things quite well. How about a Typhoon. The C-hog is the most dangerous of all because it has the most ammo.
-
The performance of the N1K1-J is very similar to the N1K2-J. In fact if you modeled the N1K1-J and placed it in a RPS or "midwar" arena, it would be even more dominate than the N1K2-J is in the current MA.
The Ki61-II, the airframe upon which the Ki100 is based, does indeed out perform the Ki100 in every category except for sustained turn rate. A characteristics that we know only gets you killed in both the MA and in real life.
And Widewing is correct in my opinon about the Ki100 and other late war Japanee aircraft in comparison to the Allied.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Ive flown the Niki a lot, maybe too much,as some of you have pointed out. Basically it just doesnt feel like the other planes in here when it comes to E-retention, I dont know why,I dont know how to test E-retention, but it simply feels wrong. Actually I think it resembles the FM of a Jane's WW2 Fighters Spit9. Thats prolly why I like to fly the niki when things dont go well in the 109, its very simmilar to the planes in Janes WW2 Fighters. They can climb very long without stalling/spinning, they can hover on the top of a stall-climb - long enough for a controlled stall, they just dont need very much forward speed to pull wild vertical and turn manouvers, exacltly like the niki. I liked Janes for a long time, but its very crappy roadkill FM got tired and uninteresting so I left. You all pretty much know that I hate the chog and the niki in AH, thats why guys, they just remind me too damn much of the cheap
unchallenging, no skill, roadkill of Janes FM and weapons. Im sad to say but I dont think HTC gives a damn about niki or chog being changed, and why should they? These planes prolly draw in and retain more $$$ customers (QUAKERS), due to their incredible ease of use/killing, than they piss off and push away existing customers (HARD CORE DEDICATED FLIGHT SIMMERS), whom I soppose AH was originally targeted at with a high-end FM. Face it the new QUAKERS $10,$15,$20, or $30 a month is the same as DEDICATED SIMMERS $30 to HTC.
hehe...good lord Grunny, you are such a closet-Niki flying hypocrite it's just too damned amusing. You fly the thing all the time, yet you continuously say it's grossly overmodelled and made for Quake Dweebs. If you truely think the thing is F'ed up, then stick to your guns and don't fly it. Otherwise quit posting this "it feels wrong" nonsense.
Tour 12 Stats:
grunherz has 229 kills and has been killed 151 times in the N1K2.
grunherz has 100 kills and has been killed 59 times in the Bf 109F-4.
grunherz has 60 kills and has been killed 19 times in the Bf 109G-10.
And to the rest of you experts out there, please once and for all tell us what is wrong with the Niki and WHY. So the niki can do a bunch of loops and gain altitude? Great. You say that's wrong? Great. Why is it wrong? I don't want to hear "no plane should be able to do that". Why shouldn't the N1K2 Shiden-Kai be able to do that, and what data do you have to say that it shouldn't. Plus a list of what else it does that it shouldn't do and WHY would also be helpful. Until then, it's only as right or wrong as HTC says it is. And if they do say there's something wrong with it, then they're obviously going to fix it, so there's no point in arguing about it.
SOB
...Lately becoming a Runstang dweeb, but never too far away from the Niki.
P.S. I hate all of you! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 02-12-2001).]
-
Originally posted by Jigster:
I think the only big concern with the N1K2-J come from those flaps...it not only reshapes the chamber of the wing, the butterfly flaps make the N1K2, for the most part, a biplane, when extended. Two seperate flying surfaces are created once the flaps drop, and that seems like a reasonable amount of drag not being developed through manuvers.
There are a couple of things not accounted for, namely instant deployment...that didn't happen. The automatic flap system was based on AoA and speed, and took a few seconds to deploy according to speed and AoA. Second, there are some other form of flaps on N1K2 in addition to the accounted-for butterfly flaps, already worked into the flight model. It's and extra system that was not on the real one-- there were no other flap systems. I'm not sure what they are suppose to represent...as they add drag and no real lift benefits. The butterfly flaps deployed automatically for landing as well.
- Bess
BTW...Thanks Jigster for always adding useful information to these niki-bashing threads. Whether it's pro or con it's always worth reading (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SOB
-
Like I said SOB I speak from extensive niki flying experience. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Its just too damn easy to rack up 5,6,7,8 kill missions in that sucker and its blue cousin. And just look how often I flew the niki in tour 11, only once and even then it was only cuz I picked the wrong plane.I only take the dam thing when flying 109s becomes a pain in the bellybutton due to so many nikis and chogs in the MA. All those sobs have to do is turn like mad and even then they can climb with my zooms or at least hover long enough to get killing 600-900 yard sprayings.
FYI Tour 11:
GRUNHERZ has 123 kills and has been killed 24 times in the Bf109G-10
GRUNHERZ has 0 kills and has been killed 1 time in the N1K2
And frankly I dont see any hipocrisy in my stance on nikis. I make it quite clear that I fly the damn thing a lot every once in a while (pretty much tour 9 and 12 BTW )and thats why I hate them. Ive just been able to do too many wierd things in that piece of toejam, to trust its FM as being accurate. Other ppl have noticed this too its not like im the only one. Wasnt the niki poor at hi alt??? Not if you ask Animal in his P51 when I constantly outclimed him at 28K. Or this one day when Citabria jumped me from higher alt in a FW190A5, all I had to do was dodge one or two passes follow his dive a bit pull up and take a 600-700 yard shot just as he stalled out at the top of his zoom, while I continued climbing up, he was dead. Frankly sometimes it gets so bad I apolgize to ppl that I killed, while flying a niki- they did nothing wrong and flew clean tactics for their respective planes, but the BS niki I was in, can turn then climb then not stall, shoot then regain e, turn, climb again shoot not stall/spin. Frankly its pathetic. I cant shake the feeling that something is its vertical performance and e retention. Heck even pyro said that he belives there might be problem with the way it climbs and how much power the engine model gives. So SOB I have a good reson to dislike the niki in AH, Ive flown its wierd FM too much. Actually I prolly dont fly the niki all that often in terms of #of sorties, its just that my strike rate in that 800rds of cannon turner is a lot higher than in the G10, which only has 60rds, but that I suppose is beyond the point.
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 02-12-2001).]
-
Congrats, you didn't fly it in Tour 11. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The fact still remains that you claim to be a "hard core dedicated flight simmer", claim the Niki is only for Quake dweebs who don't care about flight sims, yet you've flown the Niki just as much as any dedicated Niki driver.
If you can climb with 109s, then I'm pretty damned impressed, as every time I meet a good 109 pilot who's got alt I end up dead or dodging. Guess I'm just one of those scores of quake dweebs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now, the only thing that I remember seeing from Pyro on this issue (and I could be remembering this wrong) is that it may perform better than it should at high alt. Aside from that, just constant squeaking. You give a lot of claims to what the plane can and can't do, and because you've flown it a lot, I actually give credence to what you say you've been able to do, but WHY is any of it inconsistant with how the real plane flew (ignoring any inaccuracies that can be found in the rest of the planeset here)? You don't actually happen to have some conflicting data or some actual WWII fighter stick time to convince me with do you? Because I truely WOULD appreciate it!
SOB
BTW...Salute for being the only plane whiner I've seen so far who also has a sense of humor about it...at least from what I've seen when I've given ya toejam in the MA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Im not exactly making a blanket statement that anyone who flies a niki is a quake dweeb. I know for example that you flew it at least from tour 7 (my first one), and u arent a dweeb. More precisly I meant that it and chog appeals to to the quake mentality in players rather than the serious hardcore sim idea that AH is supposed to be. It seems perfect for mindless type of flying, usually associated with low quality low realism FM - thus the JanesWW2 fighters reference-. Basically I feel it chepens the sim.
Now I dont know what a niki could or couldnt do in real life. However I have never read of any WW2 fighter doing 30 loops right from takeoff with minimal alt loss and even climbing. Apparently some other AH fighters can loop somewhat like this (but not quite as much), so this may be a general AH 1.04+ FM bug. However in reference to the other AH planes it seems niki benefited most from 104 FM change. Before that it was a capable and dangerous plane, that got limited use by a few more or less dedicated fliers. Then all of a sudden in 104 half the sky is full of them. Apparently the quake brigade moved from the previously overdone 190A5 to niki and chog.
This is what has me so mad bout the niki, what new perfomance figures did HTC suddenly discover to make niki so much more deadly and popular? In all likeliness there was no new stunning data. Thats why it really has me thinking that there is some subtle bug or error in its FM relating to vertical e-retention and power. That plus pyros concerns over the niki, has me wondering if its all correct.
Sometimes it seems that im some amazinhunk whiner that just likes to squeak, but thats really not the case. Actually if u think about it if we all met each other somewhere we'd prolly get along fine. I mean really how many do ppl we all know that like military history and aviation. So its ok to argue a bit as long we keep civil and not take it all too seriously. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Originally posted by fscott:
Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.
fscott
ww2 version of ack dweebs?????????????
------------------
(http://titanium3.homestead.com/files/rudedawg.jpg)
-
Well, I don't know where in the heck you got the crazy idea that I'm not a dweeb, but thanks anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now who in their right mind would attempt a bunch off loops right after takeoff in real life? I'd guess that's what you could attribute that loss of data to.
I guess I'm the 'take it as it is' kind of guy. I flew WarBirds before this and have met Pyro on numerous occasions and just know that HTC knows what they're doing and if there's something wrong it'll be fixed eventually. So, when the niki gets a seemingly better boost in performance with a new version, I assume that it's because the Niki suffered more from the inaccuracies in the previous flight model. And if it did get screwed up, it won't be screwed up for long. I'm not claiming I'm right, and actually I'm not claiming anything except that seeing the millionth post about how the Niki is screwed up because, ummm, well, just because get's annoying. I picked on you directly for it because of your seeminly contradictary post, but you're definitely not at the top of the list when I think of whiney bastards...you are on there tho' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now I'll leave you because this is just getting tiresome. I think I'll go try and get RAM riled up...you're not nearly irrational enough to be fun! And you're right, I'm sure I'd get along fine with anyone on this board I met in real life...go to the CON and that'll probably happen. Hell, I met Fatty at the con and was able to put up with him!
SOB
-
. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kaneyoshi Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.
Err, the story is a fake. It was released by the Japanese propaganda factory.
From "Imperial Japanese Naval Aces 1937 to 1945".
Quote
"Desperate to find heroes to help deflect the news of the seemingly endless series of military defeats , the Japanese press found WO Keneyoshi Muto's deeds during this sortie ideal for their propaganda purposes. An exaggerated version of the combat was duly spread that saw Muto single handedly take on 12 Hellcats, destroying 4-This myth survives to this day."
There were a total of 4 Hellcats downed but this was a Squad effort. Not the efforts of one man.
Better is the story of his death.
Muto and his flight of 6 NIK2 from the 343AG Jumped 2 lone F4U's downing one immediately. The other Pilot LT Robert Applegate was then joined by two F6F's one of which was also shot down. The remaining two (F4U&F6F) fought and destroyed all 6 of the attackers including Muto who was killed. The F4U pilot Robert Applegate was forced to ditch and F6F pilot Malcom Cagle was the only pilot from either side to land his A/C. Boths American pilots claimed three NME shot down.