Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kieren on May 23, 2000, 02:15:00 PM
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Ok, let's get it out in the open!
What a/c matches up with the following a/c?
FW190D-9
Spitfire XIV
Ta-152
Ki-84
La-7
P47M
P51H
Me262
Fiat G55
Mosquito (later Mk's)
Gloster Meteor
A26 Invader
Ar234
B29
and the immediate post-war:
P80
F8F
Spitfire Mk22
La9
Meteor
Let 'er rip, let's get it over with once and for all! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.hpcisp.com/~kieren/kieren.gif)
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 05-23-2000).]
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Brewster Buffalo vs MI-8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://www.danford.net/flyaway.jpg)
--my--
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My opinon only:
Aircraft that would fit in arena:
FW190D-9 (fast, but not fastest, turns like a truck, average to low climb)
Ki-84 (great TnB aircraft, very slow in our arena)
La-7 (very good low alt aircraft, but suffers badly above 15k, like current La5)
P47M (very fast, but turns like a brick)
Mosquito (later Mk's)
A26 Invader
Aircraft that would IMO unbalance things:
Spitfire XIV (perfect arena fighter)
Ta-152 (actually wouldn't unbalance arena, but it gives impression it would)
Ar234 (an untouchable bomber)
B29 (If you hate B17's, this will cause nightmares, better bring x4 Hispano's)
P80 (jet enough said)
F8F (an almost perfect arena fighter, but its blue)
Spitfire Mk22 (perfect arena fighter on steriods)
Meteor (jet enough said)
P51H (too damn fast at 480mph)
Me262 (jet enough said)
Don't know enough about it to form an opinon:
Fiat G55
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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FW190D-9
Spitfire MkXIV
Ki-84 (peice of junk according to Saburo Sakai)
La-7
P47M
Me262
Fiat G55
Mosquito (later Mk's)
Gloster Meteor MkIV
A26 Invader
Ar234
B29
Ta152
Spitfire F.21
Hawker Tempest
J3M2 Raiden "Jack"
Avro Lincoln
He177/He277
and the immediate post-war:
P80
F8F
Spitfire Mk22/24
Seafire Mk48
La9
Meteor
J7W1 Shinden
A7M3 Reppu "Sam"
Kikka
Hawker Fury
Do335
B-36
"Rita" (Japanese 4 engined, heavy land-based bomber. Much like the B-17, but with 20mm cannons)
Those are a few. If I had my books with me I could name many more.
Sisu
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Don't know enough about it to form an opinon:
Fiat G55
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Vermillion
The G.55 is not a late war monster, is a decent 1943-44 fighter, like the C.205V.
The G.56 however, engined with the mighty DB603 (1,750hp) would be a serious contender with late war allied fiters. Only a few models were built, tho.
Max speed was 685Km/h at 7,000mt. Time to 7,000mt was 7"5". Armament was 3x20mm Mausers MG151-20 or 2x20mm and 1x30mm.
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Nobody's mentioned the Tempest.
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Nashwan, I did.
Sisu
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What I really think we need is the B-36 Peacemaker. Designed for WWII, but too late to see action (by more than a year (years?)).
Convair B-36 Peacemaker
Wingspan: 230 feet
Length: 162 feet
Wing Area: 4770 square feet
Maximum Take-off Weight: 410,000 pounds
Maximum Bomb Payload: 2x 48,000 pound Grand Slam bombs
Powerplant: 6x 3500 hp R4360 radial engines, 4X 5,200 pound J47-GE-19 turbojets
Defensive Guns: 12 20mm cannons
Maximum Speed: 411 Mph
(http://www.west.net/~brianl/peacemkr/frontview.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Sisu
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FW190D-9 (Based on what I have read, it could out turn almost every allied fighter in the ETO. The exception was probably the Spit and maybe the P-38. All historical accounts I have read show it holding its own with the P-51 in all respects.)
Spitfire XIV - Don't know any equal to this bird in terms of pure fighting ability (Angles and E...guess you had to try and run 'em out of gas before they caught you..high aileron forces at high speeds though).
Ta-152 Perhaps a `long spanned' (LF?) Spit?
Ki-84 P-47M possibly, depending on alt.
La-7 Leonids call...I dont know much history on this other then the Soviet World War Two fighters Volume 1
P47M - Ki-84...see above
P51H - not that familiar with the H (Lightweight D?...perhaps the Dora or Ta-152)
Me262 - Had no contemporary at the time. Based on what I have read it had much better handling characteristics then the early meteors.
Fiat G55 - P-51? The G-55 only had 385mph @ 23k ft, but could probably out turn a 51 (Info from William Greens Fighters of WW2, Vol 2...How about the Piaggio P119 with the radial engine in the center of the fuselage (similar to P-39 layout) which could do 400mph at 22,300 ft.
Mosquito (later Mk's) Ju-388
Gloster Meteor - Me-262...maybe..see above.
A26 Invader Me-410+Ju-388=A-26 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ar234 - Can't touch this (except maybe a 51 ina dive..otherwise, brits need the canberra)
B29 - The Me-264
and the immediate post-war:
Leaving the last ones alone..would have to speculate on what Germany would have built, based on what shape we want to assume GE was in. Or do you mean Soviet contemporaries?
P80
F8F
Spitfire Mk22
La9
Meteor
(http://devildogs.com/vmf111/sdsig2.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 05-23-2000).]
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Really, this is interesting to me because many of the planes listed would have to be considered on or on the edge of the "uber" list. One must assume such planes would be entered in pairs (though there is no way to know what is planned) to help historical balance (Allied/Axis). So again, and specifically, how might you compare each a/c on the list with its direct arena rival?
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 05-23-2000).]
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I believe from reading the post of Pyros that the uber planes will be for the main arena only not any other arena. So planes like those listed above would be in the maon arena probably in pairs.
Anyone want a B19 it actually flew in the combat area. Only one of them though and I want it for my self.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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la-7=P51D or 109G10 under 8,000 ft.
It's not really uber, it's just an La-5FN
with all the drag cleaned up so it moves faster and bleeds less E in vertical fighting. Also Visibility improved by shifting oil coolers out from in front of canopy. Oh, it does have an extra cannon too.
Over 8,000 ft it's much less competetive. It does however move slightly over 400 mph TAS instead of the 390 TAS the La-5FN can do.
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FW190D-9 (Based on what I have read, it could out turn almost every allied fighter in the ETO. The exception was probably the Spit and maybe the P-38. All historical accounts I have read show it holding its own with the P-51 in all respects.)
Not bloody likely! D-9 is poor turning plane.
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jochen Jagdflieger JG 2 'Richthofen' Aces High
jochen Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) Warbirds
Thanks for the Fw 190A-5 HTC!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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You think the Ta 152 wouldn't unbalance the arena, Verm? Take a look at this...
'The flying characteristics of the Ta 152 put all previous German fighters completely in the shade. Althought I never flew the Me 262 jet, I would venture to suggest that the Ta 152 was by far superior when it came to dogfighting with the Allied fighters then in service.'
'The 2500 HP engine gave the Ta 152 a top speed of some 750kph. The three-bladed airscrew - each blade being 60 cm wide - meant the Ta 152 could life off in just 400 metres. The marked increase in span gave the aircraft a very tight turning ciecle and a fantasic climb capability - 15 metres a second and a ceiling of 14,000 metres. In my opinion there was no better fighter in operational service at the time.' - a pilot of Erpobungskommando 152, (the operational test unit for the Ta 152, late 44, the pilot is most likely Hauptmann Bruno Stolle, who had since commanded both III./JG 2 and I./JG 11)
Now onto a combat report by the only Ta 152 equipped squadron, JG 301. Pilot, Oberfeldwebel Willi Reshke, 3 kills in Ta 152 before war's end...
'At the beginning of April 1945 JG 301 based at Hagenow, Ludwigslust and Neustadt-Glewe. The latter housed both II./JG 301 and the Ta 152H-1s of the Stabsschwarm. During the afternoon of 14 April 1945 the Geshwader had flown a mission over the Eastern Front, a low-level attack on Russian positions along the Oder south-east of Berlin.
'The Stabsscharm's job was to provide fighter cover during the Fw 190's approach and strafing runs, but as there wasn't a Russian fighter to be seen far and wide, The Ta-pilots returned to Neustadt-Glewe without firing a shot. The aircraft were immediatley refuelled, taxied to their dispersals and camouflaged. The pilots were still busy attending to their machines when two enemy fighters were spotted some eight kilometres to the south-west of the field making low-level passed over ludwigslust rail-way yards.
'Three Ta 152s were ordered to scramble at once - pilots Oberstleutnant Aufhammer, Oberfeldwebel Sattler and Oberfeldwebel Reshke.
'As the direction of take-off was in the line with the railway tracks leading straight to Ludwigslust, we were almost immediately in contact with the enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests. Flying No 3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead of my dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to be the result of enemy action, as the two Tempest pilots had clearly only registered our presence.
'So now it was two against two as the ground-level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down out V-1's (which it shot down 638 of the 1,717 launched against Britain). But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines' ability to turn would be all important. Both pilots realised from the start that it would be a fight to the finish and used every flying trick and tactical ploy possible to try and gain the upper hand. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began fully to appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.
'Pulling ever tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights, the Tempest pilot of being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed.
'The first burst of fire from my Ta 152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive action, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.
'Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately for the Tempest pilot didnt realise my predicament as he'd already taken hits.
'Instead he continued desperatly to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably - he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us.
'It so happened that the site of Oberfeldwebel Sattler's crash, and that of the Tempest pilot, who proved to be New Zealander Wt Off O J Mitchell, were only about one kilometre apart. They were buried side-by-side in Neustadt-Glewe cemetary next day with full military honors.'
The Ta, slightly put, 0wned.
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Outmaneuvering and outturning are different categories.
While Dora could outmaneuver almost all planes at high speeds and dives, there were very few planes Dora could outturn at sustained turn speed.
P 51D might just be one of those planes, regarding Dora's superior power loading. But then again, lower drag of P 51 and lower wingloading might negate this.
An interesting matchup though.
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Originally posted by Kieren:
Ok, let's get it out in the open!
What a/c matches up with the following a/c?
FW190D-9 ----P51D,P47D
Spitfire XIV ----Ta152H
Ta-152C ----P51H,P47M
Ta-152H ----SpitXIV
Ki-84 ----SpitIX
La-7 ----Me109K4
P47M ----Ta152C
P51H ----Ta152C
Me262 ----Meteor (meteor too slow)
Fiat G55 ----SpitIX
Mosquito (later Mk's)-Ju88S
Gloster Meteor ----Me262
A26 Invader ----Ju188
Ar234 ----nothing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) but it wont be so uncatchable. P47D and P51D on dive could get it)
B29 ----Ta152C (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Go229 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
and the immediate post-war:
P80 ----Go229 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), Ta183 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
F8F ----Ta152C
Spitfire Mk22 ----MiG15 (same date (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) ROFLOL!
La9 ----Me109K14
Meteor ----Go229, Ta183
Hope it is clear. Germany had matchups for ANYTHING the allied could throw to them...well the Spit Mk22 (with counter rotating props) was an UFO...but without the CR props it was a ROTATING TORQUE UFO (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Also note the difference between Ta152H (Ju enginged) and C (DB603 engined). DB engine was more powerful and had better high altitude handling. I believe it had a longer span too, so more wing surface, climbrate and better hi alt altitude handling for the cost of some of its rollrate. Not a bad compromise IMHO.
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Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-24-2000).]
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Comparison of Spitfire Mk. XIV and Ta 152H is not quite right, based on number in service and time of service.
P-80's flew combat sorties in the Med.
Very selective pro-Luftwaffe thinking by RAM. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now tell me what matchup does the Luftwaffe have for F-22?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by funked:
Comparison of Spitfire Mk. XIV and Ta 152H is not quite right, based on number in service and time of service.
I agree but I am giving comparisons on what, for me, should be equal planes. As equal I understand planes that have drawbacks and advantages, not the same,but that they would do them be in a stalemate in an one on one fight co-E. For example, Me109E and SpitI. They were different but roughly equals, the 109 slightly better, or SpitIX versus Fw190A4...again with Fw better than Spit (as Fw rules the engagement due its better speed)
As so I regard Ta152 as SpitXIV's equal with Ta slightly better than Spit.
Very selective pro-Luftwaffe thinking by RAM. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LOL!...thats for people who thinks that Luftwaffe was in technical inferiority on 1945 only because P51H and F8F were coming. nahhh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now tell me what matchup does the Luftwaffe have for F-22?
ROFLMAO!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Eurofighter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-24-2000).]
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I understand what you are saying now about equal planes, and I agree. For every super-plane on one side, you can find an equal super-plane on the other. The only exception is the Japanese, as they never got any seriously fast planes into production.
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Yak-3
Ki-100
F6F
P-63
Yak-9T,K
P-39
Mosquito
He-219
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Ta 152H-1 Specs.
Jumo 213E 1750hp T/O, 2050hp MW 50.
Max speeds: 332mph, 350mph MW 50 @S/L. 465mph MW 50 @30k. 472mph GM 1 @41km.
Initial climbrate: 3445fpm MW 50.
Ceiling: 48.5k GM 1.
Loaded weight: 10,472lbs.
Powerloading: 6.1lbs/hp or 5.1lbs/hp MW 50 @S/L.
Wingloading: 41.7lbs/sq ft. AR = 8.9
The Ta, slightly put, 0wned.
Sorry, but just because one story says it could out turn a Tempest on the deck, that does NOT make it an "uberfighter".
Ie: At altitudes up to 20k, the Fw 190D-9 would be superior in all aspects except turning. BUT, the Ta 152H-1 had heavier controls and lost some of the rollrate of the Fw 190, so it looses some manoeuverability there.
The reason it would unbalance the arena is it would be too good for taking out high alt buffs, they would be flying around at 40k+, and being flown by hordes of K.Tank groupies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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RAM,
A 109K-4 would be a match for anyone really. That thing climbs like nothing else. A dog to maneuver though.
Now a Yak-3/Vk-108 would really be a nightmare(Yes, this is one step beyond Verm's dream)! Climbs 16404ft in 3.5 minutes, or something like that! Top speed was 462mph at 20600ft. Had a 23mm NS-23 (60rds), which while low mv had a high rof. I shudder to think what kind of acceleration this diminutive fighter variant had. It would absolutely shred. Oh, and almost forgot, Yak-3s had the best view in the house too!
Pyro, I change my mind! This is my pick for uber-postwar-fighter-aircraft!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 05-24-2000).]
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P-38K
just humor me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Nath, the reason I think the Ta-152 would not be unbalancing is like Juzz said, below 20k the 190D9 was a superior aircraft.
Plus almost all Ta-152's, were the H0 (zero) model, not the H1. The H0 did not have either MW50 or GM1 boost systems, due too production problems and availability. But otherwise was similar to the H1.
I have some charts of Focke-Wulf's own performance testing and comparison between the D9,D12&13, 152C (only prototypes ever built), and the H0 & H1 models. And of all these planes I would much rather have the D9 than any of the others.
If I remember correctly, of the entire Ta-152 production run (very small in its own right), approximately less than 30 of them were the H1.
Leonid, I finally found a production number on the Yak3's with the Vk107's. Of the Yak3's produced during the war, 100 of them were equipped with the 107.
Yep the Yak3(107) would be a real terror, in fact its one of the few aircraft that I can think of that could compete with a Spit XIV on even terms.
Pyro, I change my mind! This is my pick for uber-postwar-fighter-aircraft!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I agree, the two uber planes I want too see the most are this Yak3 variant, and the P-51H
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Originally posted by funked:
P-80's flew combat sorties in the Med.
Again !
Against who ? Did it fire single shot ?
Was enemy closer than 500 miles at least ?!
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There were several sheep with Nazi sympathies in the area. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seriously though, at the end of the war there were more P-80's in service with the USAAF (45) than there were Ta 152's ever built!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-24-2000).]
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WHAT ABOUT the F7F!!! SHEESH Always the F8F but everyone forgets about the F7F. May I remind all that the F7F was A LOT closer to seeing combat then the F8F in WWII, by about 1000 miles.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Gorf
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Originally posted by funked:
Comparison of Spitfire Mk. XIV and Ta 152H is not quite right, based on number in service and time of service.
P-80's flew combat sorties in the Med.
Very selective pro-Luftwaffe thinking by RAM. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now tell me what matchup does the Luftwaffe have for F-22?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ohh yes no wonder funked. We cannot be allowed to fly in a competative plane, it's as easy as this. We with our elderly SpitIX manage to shoot down lots of LW boys, now you want them to vote for giving us more or less late war SpitXIV? They will extinct like dinasours (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Btw, I noted that LW crowd might be one of the most dedicated, but also it's also the most whining bunch of people with a "everything for me, none for you" way of thinking.
mx22
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Originally posted by funked:
There were several sheep with Nazi sympathies in the area. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seriously though, at the end of the war there were more P-80's in service with the USAAF (45) than there were Ta 152's ever built!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-24-2000).]
I was always under impression tat some 140 or so Ta 152s were built.
140 > 45 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sundog, the Germans lost quite a few Ar234s to diving Hawker Tempests; Spitfire XIVs could have also cought it in a dive. The Meteor would have outrun it easily in level flight.
Funked and Hristo, the Meteor was stationed in France in March 1945 to counter the Me262. They never met, but Meteors did get MUCH closer than 500 miles to enemy aircraft. They also saw service against V-1s, downing may of them.
In all seriousness, I don't want to see any ultra-late/post-war aircraft. No Spitfire F.21, no Ta152, no F7F/F8F, ect, ect.
The latest war aircraft/vehicles that I'd like to see are as follows:
Fw190D-9
Bf-109K-4
Tempest MkV
Spitfire MkXIV
P-47D
Ki-100
B-29
J3M2
Koenig Tiger
If jets were going to be introduced (which I'm not sure they should be), I'd select the following:
Me262
Ar234
Meteor MkIV
P-80
Some other, not so late war aircraft I'd like to see:
Brewster Buffalo (In Finnish colors)
Il-2
Pe-2
The 3 engined Italian bomber (Don't know Italian aircraft by name)
Mosquito
Me410
Hurricane
F6F
B-25
Wellington
He111
Ju87
P-40
I-16
P-61
He219
He177
SBD
TBF
"Kate"
"Val"
PBY
H8K2 "Emily"
Russian 4 engined bomber (Don't know my Russian aircraft by name either)
D.520 (French)
Ki61
Sherman
T-34/85
Whirblewind
Panther
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 05-24-2000).]
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I don't want any late war aircraft either...
In addition to Karnak's list I'd like to see:
Fokker Dva
Sopwith Camel
Fokker Triplane
Rumpler C1
Se5a
Sopwith Snipe
Neiuport 17
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Join the bring the Se5a to AH campeign now !!!!!!
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Hristos, see my post on the the production of the Ta-152.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003476.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003476.html)
The Short Version:
There were 25 prototype 152's (A's, B's, C's, and H's) and 45 production 152's (two C's, and 43 H's).
Of these only 25 total made it too active service with the Luftwaffe.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-24-2000).]
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Plus almost all Ta-152's, were the H0 (zero) model, not the H1. The H0 did not have either MW50 or GM1 boost systems, due too production problems and availability. But otherwise was similar to the H1.
Actually, Vermillion, roughly 150 Ta 152H's were build only 46 of them being H0's, 26 being built at Sarau and the other 20 at Cottbus, all fighter-varients of the H0 were equipped with MW 50, out of all the night fighter variants, all-weather fighter variants, the only H0 model that didn't have some sort of power-boost system was the H0/R21, which lacked a GM1 system. (R standing for Rustsatze or Umrust-Bausatze, field and factory conversion sets respectively). The H1 and H0 were basically the same except for an enlarged fuel capacity in the H1.
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Nath, not sure where you information came from but this guy documents each and every aircraft down to its exact werk number, and any known combat history. And the info I posted in the full post came from the book.
I will let you and him argue it out. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But all his sources are original Luftwaffe documents, and the bibliography is quite large.
He does document that at several plants quite a few aircraft were found in various stages of construction, so maybe the numbers your source is quoting counts in those aircraft. *shrugs*
If your really interested I can post the lists of all the aircraft produced, their prototype designations, or the werk numbers of the production aircraft, and see where our information matches.
The book I am refering too is by far the most indepth examination of the Ta-152 I have seen. Until I see some better source, I will personally believe the information from this source.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
If your really interested I can post the lists of all the aircraft produced, their prototype designations, or the werk numbers of the production aircraft, and see where our information matches.
I dont know if he wants that info but I am mighty interested. I'd be thankfull if you'd send it to me.
ebringas@airtel.net
Thanks in advance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Just went back thru the book to check your numbers Nath.
According to this source.
The two (2) production 152C's were produced at Erfurt-North. These were originally planed as unarmed E reconaisance aircraft, but were picked up by JG301, and armed and used in combat as C models. On 15 April '45 when the American's overan the facility, they found two flyable Ta152's, one burnt out Ta152, and a further 40 Ta152 partially completed fuselages.
The 43 production 152H's were produced at Cottbus.
On the issue of 152's built at Sorau/Adelheide.
While there was a planned prototype program for an initial total of 26 test beds, most of these were canceled or never completed. These were designated V1 thru V28.
V1-V5 were not built (5 total)
V6 was a 152C-0 prototype
V7 was a C-0/R11 prototype
V8 was a C-0/EZ prototype
V9-V12 were canceled (4 total)
V13 was a E-1 prototype
V14 was canceled
V15 was a C-2 prototype
V16-V17 were C-3 prototypes planned to fly in March 45
V18 was canceled
V19-V21 were C-5 prototypes , reordered as B-5's, planned to fly in April-March 45,
V22-V25 were canceled
V26 was a H-10, but reordered as a H0, never completed
V27-V28 were converted H0's for testing Mk103 cannons for C-3 series.
The production plans for the Ta152 C prototypes could also not be held too, on account of the war situation, and it is questionable whether more than three new-build prototypes of the Ta 152 C-0 (V6, V7,V8) and one converted aircraft (Ta152 V27 or V28) were ever built and flown.
That last paragraph was a direct quote.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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If I can get access to a scanner I will try to post the two page listing of all the production aircraft from Cottbus, which includes whatever history is available on each.
However, as much of a 190 fan as you are, I would highly suggest purchasing the book. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Since it includes quite a bit of history, technical information on the aircraft, and flight testing data as well.
Its only $24 US on Barnes&Noble online, and ships immediately, plus there are a couple of reviews of it there. ISBN #: 0-7643-0860-2
I highly reccommend it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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The comments I made about the Doras turning ability were the comments in a book about Kurt Tank, the designer of the Fw-190. So, we can assume they are somewhat biased. I will look through the book for hard numbers on turn rate vs altitude of the Dora based on flight testing.
Update: Found wing loading(S/W)numbers and power loading (W/P) numbers
Dora-9: S/W=233.33 kg/m^2 W/P=3.38 kg/kw
190A-8: S/W=237.70 kg/m^2 W/P=3.42 kg/kw
190A-6: S/W=224.43 kg/m^2 W/P=3.23 kg/kw
P-38F: S/W=237.31 kg/m^2 W/P=3.71 kg/kw
P-51A: S/W=184.36 kg/m^2 W/P=4.23 kg/kw
Spit 9 LF: S/W=158.52 kg/m^2 W/P=2.81 kg/kw
Based on these numbers (All from `Kurt Tank: Focke-Wulf's designer and test pilot' by Wolfgang Wagner (ISBN # 0-7643-0644-8)) I don't know why they state that the Dora had `good' turning ability, as the wingloading numbers clearly do not bear this out in their very own book! Thanks for the heads up Jochen.
(http://devildogs.com/vmf111/sdsig2.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 05-24-2000).]
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OK Hristo we were both wrong, let's hunt Vermillion in the arena now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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[edit]Uh-oh...Stupid me I still dont know how to read technical numbers (it seems)
LOL foolish me! I was reading the powerloading just the wrong way!!!
well it was 6 a m for me, you know my brain doesnt work very well at normal hours, so at 6 am... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Time for my pills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-25-2000).]
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and the stupid that readed wrong the numbers did a double post!!!
my god I was really asleep (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-25-2000).]
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RAM, you're interpreting the data totally wrong. The units are Kilograms per Kilowatt. A low number is good.
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Kieren, this is why we RAF types have little compunction about invading other threads. Every bloody thread discussing late war aircraft (in this case all late war aircraft) seems to become a discussion about German aircraft, Fw this, Bf that, Me here and Ta there. YES the Germans built some VERY good fighters, but why does 75% of this board have to be about them?
Sisu
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Some other, not so late war aircraft I'd like to see:
Brewster Buffalo (In Finnish colors)
I agree!
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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I just ordered that book a couple days ago. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yup, Karnak, you may be right. I did start this thread to get it "out of our system" so to speak. FWIW, I would rather be the Spit XIV in Hristo's example. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (assuming fm's similar to WB's)
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Nath, you will love it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Its definitely in the same class as America's Hundred Thousand.
I just wish this same guy would do a similar book on the entire 109 and 190 series.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Yes... it is a fantastic book... lots of very well documented data.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I say you can have the Ta152, just give me my F7F.. will blast it out of the sky!
HEHEHE boy I bet this post gets some people worked up.
Gorf
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Karnak,
Are you high? Saki said that the N1K2 was crap not the Hayate. You should really check your source. I got mine from an interview with Saki himself.
http://www.danford.net/sakai.htm (http://www.danford.net/sakai.htm)
Look down in the interview. The subtitle of "On IJN leadership".
The Ki-84 is without a doubt the finest fighter produced by Japan during the war. Excellent maneuverability, excellent power to weight ratio, good guns, good speed (for a Japanese fighter anyway) good visability, good armor, self sealing tanks, etc......
Spritle
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Spritle, my bad.
That is the source I had as well, but I lost the link and memory apparently betrayed me. I stand corrected.
Sisu