Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: J_A_B on February 11, 2001, 11:37:00 PM
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Having read many posts about the N1K2, I was especially interested in one--the one about the endless looping ability of the N1K2
Wanting to see this for myself in action, I picked an N1K offline with 75% fuel and took off. As soon as gear up, I leveled until airspeed reached 150, then I started looping (altitude about 300 feet above runway):
The first one was the toughest--but I managed. After that, it became easier and easier to maintain a constant loop, provided I used flaps to help myself over the top.
To do this, my loops weren't quite true loops in the strict sense of the word; rather, I allowed myself to stay vertical slightly longer than necessary to gain a bit more altitude. Several times, my airspeed reached 50 MPH or less, with no penality at all--indeed, it helped bring my nose back down easier. I maintained this for about 10 loops, then became bored.
Then, as a comparison, I attempted the same feat in my favorite plane--the P-51D.
I loaded it with 75% fuel and took off, same routine. At 150-160 MPH, having gained about 300 feet, I began the loop. This first loop was a bit difficult, and I came fairly close to the ground, but after that I stabilized. Once again, I maintained this for about 10 loops, then quit.
As with before, I allowed my speed to bleed somwewhat more than necessary on the "up" of the loop to gain a bit more altitude, and used flaps over the top. Once again, my speed would drop to +/- 50 MPH and the plane would nose back down, with no apparent ill effect.
My conclusion?
I wanted to see this for myself, and I did. Not only can the N1K sustain loops from takeoff, most likely MOST the AH fighters can. The N1K is a "UFO" because it happens to be generally more maneuverable than the other fighters, and thus can make better use of this in combat. Slow-speed looping ability in and of itself is a trait shared by (probably) a LOT of the AH fighters.
I don't know if this is realistic or not; I am not an expert in the matter. Whether it is realistic is up for HTC to decide. I just wanted to post this for two reasons:
1: To mention that the N1K is not unique in this ability.
2: I have no secret motive. I just want this info to be available to the community.
Please don't turn this thread into a flamewar. This board has had enough of those, and they are not at all productive. However, any non-flame replys would be greatly appreciated.
J_A_B
PS--I am going to test this same routine in several other simulators, to see if I can do the same thing. I will post a reply upon completion.
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Followup 1--AirWarrior
In AirWarrior, I could do this same thing. Indeed, it was even easier than in AH. After the initial loop, I could gain altitude much faster than I could in AH.
J_A_B
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I have done the same with all the turn fighters. Spit,s zeke, even the p38. The spit doesnt need the climb period you mentioned.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 02-11-2001).]
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Followup 2--WarBirds
Once again, it can be done. In this game, the overall looping performance is VERY similar to AH. Torque is somewhat more of a problem, but not anything that prevented me from maintaining my constant looping maneuvers. Combat Trim in AH made these maneuvers easierthan in WB, but the overall difference was very slight.
Since I can do this in 3 different simulators, I will happily assume that there is no problem with AH in particular.
More likely, what these sims don't model is a real pilot's desire to live--no self-loving person would ever try this in reality, as a single small mistake would be fatal for sure. (and I did auger on several attempts in various sims) Plus, the usefulness of this maneuver in combat is doubtful--it leaves you VERY slow and on a predictable flight path.
As for the performance of the N1K2 in particular? WB's doesn't have it, and AW's is hopelessly mis-modeled, so I can't give any useful information. However, the N1K2 has VERY good handling in reality, and I would expect it to be able to do this sort of maneuver easier than, say, a P-51. Same could be said for a Spitfire or a Ki-43 or any lightweight plane.
Actually, I was SHOCKED that the Mustang could do this at all--it isn't known as a great looper. I expected to stall at the top and auger in, but that wasn't the case in any sim I tried. That said, it WAS a pig, but it could do it.
I hope this information is of some use to someone. Either way, it satisfies my own curiosity.
J_A_B
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Nice information JAB. Thanks for sharing it with us. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Guys read fscotts post on the N1K called Read. I did the same thing with the P-38, La5 and the Spit. I think I could do it with more of them they are just harder to do it with. I will say the N1K is the easiest to do it with.
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Combat flaps on the Niki increased lift, in essence turning it into a biplane. Quicker turns with these flaps means less loss of E. As with the F4U1c, the Niki gets picked on because it is so popular. Just wait for the Ki84, Ki100, KiAnyting
fscott
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Pyro or HiTech (I don't remember whom) stated that there is someting slightly off having to do with the N1K2's energy bleed and it would be looked at in the future.
That said, I doubt that it will cause it to be unable to loop endlessly. Those who hate the N1K2 will ignore the things stated in this thread just as they ignored my posts abouot being able to endlessly loop the La5 in fscott's "Read" thread. Like anybody who is not intellectually honest with themselves when debating, they will simply ignore any and all evidence that is contrary to their beliefs.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
A timeless truth. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Some good stuff on your site Lep thx.
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Just a note but the N1K1-Ja and A6M5 use nearly identical wings as did the somewhat changed N1K2-J, with a sligtly more tappered chord towards the wing root for the butterfly flaps and shorter, more compact ailerons.
I'm rather curious how they maintained such better performence at speed with the same wing dimensions of the Zero. It seems that small aileron correction allowed for aileron input about 200mph faster then the Zero's wing (200mph for the A6M2 -- the A6M5 had a modified wing that increased dive speeds but didn't dent the roll lock up by much) aileron lock occurs on the N1K2-J at rought 430 mph at sea level -- about 30mph slower then the F4U. (AH reference)
But the really weird thing is, they also apparently improved enough on the wing design with minimum modifications to make it an energy fighter (No doubt the extra 1000 HP of the Homare would help quite a bit) because the Zero bleeds so much energy through manuvers.
Also, the tail and rudder assemblies of the N1K1-Ja are identical to the A6M5. The only Idealisitcally 1000 more HP with the same rudder assembly seems like a rather bad decision...guess the designers thought so too...the N1K2-J added a much larger rudder that rand the full length of the vertical tail spar.
Hats of the Kawanishi...they obviously were in the UFO business if they could take a Zero's dimensions (aside from weight these two planes are extrodinarly alike, power source and firepower), add lots of weight and horse power, make it turn better, AND retain even more energy using an otherwise obselete wing design for the given situation.
That thing really is a marval considering where it came from.
- Bess
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Jigster,
I assure you, the N1K2 does NOT out turn the Zero in AH. I view N1K2's as a tasty snack whenever I see them in my Zero. I have had many an N1K2 try to out turn me and every time it leads to their death. To beat me they have to take the fight verticle or use traditional energy tatics.
If they turn, they die. Period.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 02-12-2001).]
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That's a reference to real N1K2's turning ability. At 120 MPH with the butterfly flaps fully extended, it could reportedly stay with the A6M5 (and that much easier with it's later Zero contemporaries) in the horizontal, and easily out turn it when a vertical attribute was added to the mix -- in other words spiraling.
There was just a wee bit of satircal commentary in there but I tried to keep it at a minimum because I really am amazed what they did with the airframe.
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I did once lose my heading during some weirdo loop in niki and that took for several seconds with enemy niki on me (vulcher guy)
finally I figured it out and I was going almost straight up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
didn't stall..
I just pointed nose down and immediatly were doing a loop again because enemy had just driven past me and were heading upwards - I headed after him and shot him up.
Unbelievable I told myself..
I didn't even dive for more than I had to after that "stall" when I was already pulling up after alot more speedy niki.
(I did have 50mph speed at top of the loop where I didn't know how I were angled.. didnt even think about stalling and controls were good)
views were porked that time since I hardly fly niki ever and I guess I could wake up before flying.
Niki is one big ugly bug in AH..
anti-gravitation unit.. i want that in my Fw190 too.
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Karnak I just read that other thread. You're right of course, everyone simply ignored your comments.
It seems like there are people on both sides of the fence and nobody wants to come to the middle or even look at other planes. I could care less about the flight model of anything, but it's funny to see people pick on one uber ride and don't try it for themselves, or better yet, don't try to see if any other AH planes can do the same tricks. Poking heads in the sand is what it souinds like.
It was refreshing to see that JAB tried the 51 and came up with similar results. And yet nobody's screaming about the 51 being porked. Dead silence in response to JABs comments about other sims similar characteristics.
It's time to try the same tricks with some other planes and see what happens.
Fury
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Certainly I have tried this with the 109 and it is really difficult to maintain a pitch attitude of 90 degress and performing an Immelman which most know it was the trademark move of the 109. The controls even at full power become mush and the right rudder input does not do anything more than get you into a spin. Amazingly the G6 of the 109s is better suited for the Immelman than any of the other .It is much more difficult attempting an Immelamn in the 109 than in the P51 which surprising to say the least does it flawlessly ,and pivots quite fast.
From my experience the 109 if you don't manage well your velocity you cannot go vertical and do a loop, in fact after 150 the plane hangs from a thread in the air with 100% fuel ,25% might make it a tad stable but still stalls with ease(might be due to the fact that high AoA slats are not modeled or taken into account,other sims will model it I am sure).
Whatever is allowing ths endless looping might be due to flaws in the FM system of all of these sims or that it truly happened (now, I am taking a neutral approach) I will not share my opinion due to the inevitable flack that will eventually pertrude thru these board so I am sticking to my personal experience in the sim and my plane.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Tis not important how one goes,but who goes with you.