Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: thorsim on February 22, 2010, 03:20:09 PM
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ummm ...
they make me sad and annoyed ...
should they ?
t
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262s shouldnt be able to do it, its wings should break when -2Gs are felt on the air frame. ;)
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I agree, it seems all German iron is highly over modeled in this fashion. I've read many reports where they said no more than -1G would surely damage the aircraft beyond repair or recovery.
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I think this topic of discussion came up on 200 the other day....I think it ended up with someone finding a loop hole in the flight model and gaming it....sort of like when people bail before a bomb lands on their flak. :devil
:bolt:
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I brought it up on 200. Just frustrated with a d 200, stick stirring C-205 that kept doing neg G such that I could just not hit him. I had read HEARSAY (I don't know---just read it) with regard to my former game that it creates micro warps. Anyway, I just vented my frustration. When I am in trouble I do evasive maneuvers, ie, defensive scissors, or a barrel roll and go for the overshoot. Many, many players simply micro stick stir with slight rolls and repeated negative gs. Oddly the sim lets this happen with no loss of E. I've actually flown straight, easing the nose down, or tapping the "I" key---and the wiggling con pulls away. Its a game. I'd like Thor to post his stuff on the 151 vs Hispano---so we can discuss if the Hispano is way over the top. If someone knows the truth about neg gs and warp I'd love to hear.
:salute
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There was a 190 doing that same thing today. Part of me thinks it is lame but there is another part that thinks its just trying survive. What are they suppose to do just let you kill them.
Don't like it but see why they do it.
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Without any data in front me........................... ..............
I have to think -2 is far below what the actual gForce needed to break the 262's wings off.
Where is grizz? Where is Lusche?
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I was in a D11 chasing a A8, at D400 he started the electric fish dance.. I took me well over 1000 rounds to kill him, it seemed like many of them just.. passed through him :headscratch: no hit sprites nothing.. It was absurd how LONG it took me to kill the guy, he would nose down hard then up then flip left and right. I totally gave up on trying to "lead" him, because his plane pointed 3 different directions every second, so I just aimed at the general path he was taking.. I.E. the heart of the spasm and just fired when he crossed it..
he (pilot) would have been unconscious or completely disoriented a few seconds into this crap.
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Where is Lusche?
probably already making a pie chart :devil
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:huh
Right now, in my hotel room, I'm at -1 gForce.
I agree, it seems all German iron is highly over modeled in this fashion. I've read many reports where they said no more than -1G would surely damage the aircraft beyond repair or recovery.
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:lol
What's funny is when a player cries foul on a jet doing some controlled neg G maneuvers as 'gaming the game' only to /.ef in his tank as a bomb is about to hit it. How does that work in RL? A tank driver sees a bomb is going to hit him so he magic school buses it out of there? :lol The irony!
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I was in a D11 chasing a A8, at D400 he started the electric fish dance.. I took me well over 1000 rounds to kill him, it seemed like many of them just.. passed through him :headscratch: no hit sprites nothing.. It was absurd how LONG it took me to kill the guy, he would nose down hard then up then flip left and right. I totally gave up on trying to "lead" him, because his plane pointed 3 different directions every second, so I just aimed at the general path he was taking.. I.E. the heart of the spasm and just fired when he crossed it..
he (pilot) would have been unconscious or completely disoriented a few seconds into this crap.
:rofl :aok
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it seems to me that if the average man can handle 5 G's, they would make the planes to go to at least that limit....
To think the 262's wing's rip off at 2 g's is.... :rolleyes:
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Been in Armored vehicles. believe me unless you just unass the vehicle you are dead meat. You would not see it coming.
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it seems to me that if the average man can handle 5 G's, they would make the planes to go to at least that limit....
To think the 262's wing's rip off at 2 g's is.... :rolleyes:
I believe he was saying -2g.
Wab
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I think most of us have ripped the wing tips off a 262 at least once, when it's happened to me i was usually to busy to figure out how it happened also not running film either. as for the on the deck stick monkeys, what do you expect...
most folks scream if you get the (rapid stick movement) message including me so i think you can't have it both ways.
sure it's a cartoon world and not real life so what makes ya happy?
froger
(edit) personally i would like to see the flight model more realistic so the stick stir crowed would stay straight while i shoot :D
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umm i guess nobody got what i was saying ...
picture a scissor where cross has been made and trail a/c is opposite aspect angle yet he pushes -G and gets enough lead to make a kill on plane going the other way ...
that kind of "WTF ??? NO EFFIN WAY!!!" kind of stuff just annoys me to no end ...
happened to me twice yesterday, is it just lag and his plane hasn't rolled on my FE yet or is it actually somebody pushing over into a shot ?
CUZ pushing over into getting a kill shot in a scissor is just soooo setting off the BS meter in my intuitive mind.
P.S. it was not me suggesting -2g was impossible in anything the other night(i thought that pretty unlikely myself)
and i am not sure where i have expressed an opinion on the MG 151 VS. Hispanos ...
+S+
t
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it seems to me that if the average man can handle 5 G's, they would make the planes to go to at least that limit....
To think the 262's wing's rip off at 2 g's is.... :rolleyes:
That little thing.... (-)
It means "negative". Stow the 'tude, open the eyes.
At -2 G, the pilot loses his eyes in real life. Capillaries burst. I doubt there was an airframe in WW2 that even got close to handling -2 G's, and staying intact.
Just for a benchmark.... the F-22 is rated at +9.0 /-3.0 Gs for the airframe. After that, it can come unglued. The pilot, meanwhile will likely be blinded at least semi-permanently, with any sustained push to -3.0 G.
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umm i guess nobody got what i was saying ...
That's because you didn't explain anything in your original post.
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That's because you didn't explain anything in your original post.
could be, but ...
" -G lead shots "
seemed pretty clear to me ...
any thoughts on them btw?
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That little thing.... (-)
It means "negative". Stow the 'tude, open the eyes.
At -2 G, the pilot loses his eyes in real life. Capillaries burst. I doubt there was an airframe in WW2 that even got close to handling -2 G's, and staying intact.
Just for a benchmark.... the F-22 is rated at +9.0 /-3.0 Gs for the airframe. After that, it can come unglued.
ummm ...
http://www.extraaircraft.com/ea300.asp
FAA Certified Load Factor +/- 10 Gs
as far as the going blind stuff, we've all heard that before :lol
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That little thing.... (-)
It means "negative". Stow the 'tude, open the eyes.
At -2 G, the pilot loses his eyes in real life. Capillaries burst. I doubt there was an airframe in WW2 that even got close to handling -2 G's, and staying intact.
Just for a benchmark.... the F-22 is rated at +9.0 /-3.0 Gs for the airframe. After that, it can come unglued.
As far as the human limits to negative G's:
From wiki G-force page:
Resistance to "negative" or "downward" g, which drives blood to the head, is much lower. This limit is typically in the −2 to −3 g (−20 m/sē to −30 m/sē) range. The subject's vision turns red, referred to as a red out. This is probably because capillaries in the eyes swell or burst under the increased blood pressure.
It would probably be difficult to get back to base with burst capillaries in the eyes, but this seems like over modeling to me. You can get pilot wounded, have your own blood splattered across the cockpit but as long as you get back to base and end flight before you die, you are magically healed and ready to fly again. It's a game.
As far as WW2 aircraft limits to negative G's:
I have no idea. If the limits are not posted in manuals, you would have to look at cross sections of the wing design, materials used, and reinforcement in place to figure out what kind of bending moments it could take in the opposite direction.
As for the negative G limits in the game:
Not sure, I'd have to test. When I initiate neg G maneuvers in the Me262, I usually pull enough neg G just upon the cusp of red out which IIRC, onset occurs at less than negative 3 Gs which coincides with the max human allowable.
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ummm ...
http://www.extraaircraft.com/ea300.asp
FAA Certified Load Factor +/- 10 Gs
as far as the going blind stuff, we've all heard that before :lol
That's unreal. Look into the medical tests on -G's. There are quite a few that predict severe hemorrhaging in the brain at -4.5 and well...... a lot worse any more than that. Nobody's volunteered for the tests I guess.
Here's the NASA table for flight safety maximums (human): And these are absolutes, no safety net built in.
Time (min) +Gx -Gx +Gz -Gz
.01 (<1 sec) 35 28 18 8
.03 (2 sec) 28 22 14 7
.1 20 17 11 5
.3 15 12 9 4.5
1 11 9 7 3.3
3 9 8 6 2.5
10 6 5 4.5 2
30 4.5 4 3.5 1.8
So unless the body is sideways (X) you're screwed totally at -4.5 G's and .3 minutes.
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I was in a D11 chasing a A8, at D400 he started the electric fish dance.. I took me well over 1000 rounds to kill him, it seemed like many of them just.. passed through him :headscratch: no hit sprites nothing.. It was absurd how LONG it took me to kill the guy, he would nose down hard then up then flip left and right. I totally gave up on trying to "lead" him, because his plane pointed 3 different directions every second, so I just aimed at the general path he was taking.. I.E. the heart of the spasm and just fired when he crossed it..
he (pilot) would have been unconscious or completely disoriented a few seconds into this crap.
Ahh yes the famous -G pushover into the land trout.
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Wait so your saying the German Iron have an easier time shooting doing neg Gs? I cant make any shot doing neg Gs in a 109 or 152.
As far as the "Neg G pushover" it does cause a warp for me on my end, which I think Im not the only one :salute
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I agree, it seems all German iron is highly over modeled in this fashion. I've read many reports where they said no more than -1G would surely damage the aircraft beyond repair or recovery.
What? you are 1G siting still on the ground. :headscratch:
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That little thing.... (-)
It means "negative". Stow the 'tude, open the eyes.
At -2 G, the pilot loses his eyes in real life. Capillaries burst. I doubt there was an airframe in WW2 that even got close to handling -2 G's, and staying intact.
Just for a benchmark.... the F-22 is rated at +9.0 /-3.0 Gs for the airframe. After that, it can come unglued. The pilot, meanwhile will likely be blinded at least semi-permanently, with any sustained push to -3.0 G.
absolute nonsense I do -2 all the time in my RV-6 it is rated for +6 -6Gs
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umm i guess nobody got what i was saying ...
picture a scissor where cross has been made and trail a/c is opposite aspect angle yet he pushes -G and gets enough lead to make a kill on plane going the other way ...
that kind of "WTF ??? NO EFFIN WAY!!!" kind of stuff just annoys me to no end ...
happened to me twice yesterday, is it just lag and his plane hasn't rolled on my FE yet or is it actually somebody pushing over into a shot ?
CUZ pushing over into getting a kill shot in a scissor is just soooo setting off the BS meter in my intuitive mind.
P.S. it was not me suggesting -2g was impossible in anything the other night(i thought that pretty unlikely myself)
and i am not sure where i have expressed an opinion on the MG 151 VS. Hispanos ...
+S+
t
Yep, keep in mind that he is not really where you see him. Some times close, some times way off. I see people firing at me after a head on pass and then the pings start coming in. It depends on the day and the map (maybe map a coincidence). Some days are just bad for me.
On another note, I dont mind the negative G, stick twisting etc in order to avoid getting killed. It is annoying and makes me waste a lot of ammo but I guess that is all they know. What gets to me is that they can pull away from an LA7 while they are doing that.
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I was aware that Thor was discussing something different from my brief "arghh, stick stirring, neg G C-2" on 200. I just chimed in because someone mentioned it, ie, to clarify what I said on 200.
It is a game and i don't expect people to just volunteer to be an easy kill. It would be nice if they did actual defensive maneuvers (like the ones I mentioned). Instead, they do the mini moves that I think effects gunnery calcs---I emptied an entire ammo load from my FM-2 converged SHORT (I was VERY close) and did not even get a ping. I'm NOT crying 'foul'---the game has so many elements that are unrealistic---its a sim and a great one. I was just expressing frustration. I actually read a real life account of a P-40 pilot who was rtb and ammoless on the deck. He said he just jiggled and and rocked the stick around like hell until his pursuer ran out of ammo. My problem with the sim is I wish the con would slow down because of all the moves, but P-47s with one wing continue at full speed---so why not.
I'm having fun so no problems here.
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Here's the NASA table for flight safety maximums (human): And these are absolutes, no safety net built in.
Time (min) +Gx -Gx +Gz -Gz
.01 (<1 sec) 35 28 18 8
.03 (2 sec) 28 22 14 7
.1 20 17 11 5
.3 15 12 9 4.5
1 11 9 7 3.3
3 9 8 6 2.5
10 6 5 4.5 2
30 4.5 4 3.5 1.8
... shows that people can withstand -7G for up to 2s. each neg G evasive movement will be in in the 0.1s range at most so the pilot isnt a limiting factor for this kind of evasion.
is the aircraft a limiting factor? not sure, but its easy to test - the film viewer shows the accelerometer readings, pushover real quick and see if the wings fall off, and at what G. I suspect this isnt an issue either - it doesnt take much -G to displace an aircraft 20yds off its heading, which if you're saddled up at d200 is enough to defeat the shot.
no E cost for this kind of maneuvering? rubbish. get to max level speed, note speed, do evasives, note speed again. 1000 perks says your speed has dropped.
unrealistic?
from the defender:
It would only be a matter of seconds now. I had lost airspeed, and even if I turned left or right, or dived, I would still, probably, not be able to escape him [saddled up 109]. But then I remembered sitting back in Eshott, listening to two RAF Battle of Britain pilots talking. Their words stuck in my memory: "The important thing is to do something. Make no movement gently, but be as violent as possible..."
from the attacker:
When he saw me behind he began to whip back and forth, left and right, as violently as he could. I followed, but it was hard to line him up for a shot. Finally, as we kept whipping back and forth, left and right, I began to shoot before he whipped and he had to fly through my fire.
Shaw spends several pages describing a "jinking" defense against saddled up opponents.
as for (relatively) sustained neg G evasion, its a standard ACM - the Hartmann Escape.
I see alot of comments about "neg G BS!", essentially they're just whines about not getting an easy kill.
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I was aware that Thor was discussing something different from my brief "arghh, stick stirring, neg G C-2" on 200. I just chimed in because someone mentioned it, ie, to clarify what I said on 200.
It is a game and i don't expect people to just volunteer to be an easy kill. It would be nice if they did actual defensive maneuvers (like the ones I mentioned). Instead, they do the mini moves that I think effects gunnery calcs---I emptied an entire ammo load from my FM-2 converged SHORT (I was VERY close) and did not even get a ping. I'm NOT crying 'foul'---the game has so many elements that are unrealistic---its a sim and a great one. I was just expressing frustration. I actually read a real life account of a P-40 pilot who was rtb and ammoless on the deck. He said he just jiggled and and rocked the stick around like hell until his pursuer ran out of ammo. My problem with the sim is I wish the con would slow down because of all the moves, but P-47s with one wing continue at full speed---so why not.
I'm having fun so no problems here.
I said the thing about someone on 200.....it wasnt about you just bad luck I guess. I was talking about DadsGuns
:salute
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I agree, it seems all German iron is highly over modeled in this fashion. I've read many reports where they said no more than -1G would surely damage the aircraft beyond repair or recovery.
nvm missed the -
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as for sustained -G lead shots, some time back my D25 got bounced by (I think) SirVlad. I started a scissors which looked ok, he was slightly out of phase, then after one direction change he didnt roll to follow me but instead pulled -G and a sustained burst ripped my wing off. gamey? no. impressive? definitely. :)
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Let me hold still while I let you kill me....... :huh
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quite :)
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At -2 G, the pilot loses his eyes in real life. Capillaries burst. I doubt there was an airframe in WW2 that even got close to handling -2 G's, and staying intact.
I've been to over -2G R/L...eyes are fine. The guys flying acro go well over -2G, they land okay so have to assume the eyes are okay.
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as for sustained -G lead shots, some time back my D25 got bounced by (I think) SirVlad. I started a scissors which looked ok, he was slightly out of phase, then after one direction change he didnt roll to follow me but instead pulled -G and a sustained burst ripped my wing off. gamey? no. impressive? definitely. :)
ya think ...
man when i saw that it just bugged me, maybe because my turn/controllability is so poor in the a8 that another plane can not only follow my +G pull in a scissor but pull lead and do it pushing over -G ...
mind you we may have not been so fast that we were pulling a ton of Gs but it still left me scratching my head and grumbling quite a bit, i fly out my rear view quite a bit and rely on aspect angles to determine my safety, after 13 or so years of this i have never had to worry about -Gs under nose tracking (except for a brief period in WB when the KRAUTS were up to some shenanigans) because getting killed by a plane 180 degrees out of phase is a bit much imo ...
i guess i will call it lag, and keep an eye out for it ;)
good discussion though
+S+
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I've been to over -2G R/L...eyes are fine. The guys flying acro go well over -2G, they land okay so have to assume the eyes are okay.
Yep... I can vouch for this, done outside loops that have peaked @ -3.9g... my eyes are still here. I will however say, for some reason, -G's are much more disorienting than positive. Much more "uncomfortable". As much as the "floppy fish" maneuver annoys me, there is no physiological reason a pilot could not do so, aside from disorientation factor, which can be trained out. (which cannot be a factor in this game unless we had RPG style pilot stats). As for airframe withstanding such, don't know the G load limits for the WW2 airframes, but a limit of less than -2G seems awfully low to me.... I could be wrong on that though. Plus, if we are talking real life, if someone is shooting at me, I will do anything I can to get away. If I bend the airframe? OH freakin well, I'm still alive, and even if the airframe is broken to a point of uncontrollability, or inability to sustain flight, i've provided myself with an opportunity to at least bail out, which I may not have had with a MG or cannon round ripping through my aircraft and body...
Sol
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oops
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ya think ...
man when i saw that it just bugged me, maybe because my turn/controllability is so poor in the a8 that another plane can not only follow my +G pull in a scissor but pull lead and do it pushing over -G ...
mind you we may have not been so fast that we were pulling a ton of Gs but it still left me scratching my head and grumbling quite a bit, i fly out my rear view quite a bit and rely on aspect angles to determine my safety, after 13 or so years of this i have never had to worry about -Gs under nose tracking (except for a brief period in WB when the KRAUTS were up to some shenanigans) because getting killed by a plane 180 degrees out of phase is a bit much imo ...
i guess i will call it lag, and keep an eye out for it ;)
good discussion though
+S+
Keep in mind also, that what you percieve as a -G push, could be simply an unloading of G's. We don't see -g's as often, thus they can be harder to judge on an enemy airframe. I have made many killshots in my 38 by unloading to 0, or a SLIGHT negative (-.5 to -1) G push.
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Neg G maneuvers definitely have their use in the game. While you don't gain any position on your enemies by Neg G'ing, it can buy you extra time to allow a friend to attempt to clear your six or to allow you to regain enough air speed to outrun your opponent in certain planes. If you are saddled by one with 2 others behind him and friends near, why engage a scissor? If you are lucky enough for the first guy to miss, you will get picked by the 2nd or 3rd behind him, <golf clap>. I'd rather just evade and try to buy myself an extra 10-15 seconds for an ally to clear my six. If no allies are present, the only option is to engage the enemy and try to pull a rabbit out of your hat.
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thinking about it I used to take loads of -G shots when I flew the typhy alot. the dreadful rollrate means that people tend to split-S when you bounce them, which is hard to follow, but you do have time to push the nose down and grab a quick burst of 20mm. I have a bunch of films of the typhy removing various aircrafts tails doing just this, if the film viewer ever gets fixed I can post. usually just on the edge of redout, so <3G?
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thinking about it I used to take loads of -G shots when I flew the typhy alot. the dreadful rollrate means that people tend to split-S when you bounce them, which is hard to follow, but you do have time to push the nose down and grab a quick burst of 20mm. I have a bunch of films of the typhy removing various aircrafts tails doing just this, if the film viewer ever gets fixed I can post. usually just on the edge of redout, so <3G?
i wonder how many round casings "falling" up back into the chamber it would take to prove the folly of a negative G gun solution ...
Neg G maneuvers definitely have their use in the game. While you don't gain any position on your enemies by Neg G'ing, it can buy you extra time to allow a friend to attempt to clear your six or to allow you to regain enough air speed to outrun your opponent in certain planes. If you are saddled by one with 2 others behind him and friends near, why engage a scissor? If you are lucky enough for the first guy to miss, you will get picked by the 2nd or 3rd behind him, <golf clap>. I'd rather just evade and try to buy myself an extra 10-15 seconds for an ally to clear my six. If no allies are present, the only option is to engage the enemy and try to pull a rabbit out of your hat.
i use the scissor a lot, and well. i can draw people in and force overshoots pretty regularly, i hope this negative g shooting thing does not ruin the one really good evasive left to the 190s ...
that would be pretty hard to take ...
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i wonder how many round casings "falling" up back into the chamber it would take to prove the folly of a negative G gun solution ...
seems unlikely, they were gas ejected iirc
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I see alot of comments about "neg G BS!", essentially they're just whines about not getting an easy kill.
Sometimes, but not EVERY time. Some of the pilots I've engaged lately are using a sustained, severe negative G maneuver as their first line of defense, which most definitely lends an air of the surreal to the engagement. While there were a lot of things I didn't like about WWIIOL - or the pilot fatigue model they used - I'm beginning to believe that I might welcome something similar here to keep some pilots a bit more "honest" when it comes to negative G maneuvers. A 2 second 450 mph transition (it's of much too long of a duration to call it a "bunt") from horizontal to near vertical followed by a half roll and a near max G turn out is not something you'd ever want to do for real. But here...
<S>
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seems unlikely, they were gas ejected iirc
then traveled a bit "down" some sort of ejection tube from gun chamber to skin exterior right?
when down is up i foresee problems ...
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Sometimes, but not EVERY time. Some of the pilots I've engaged lately are using a sustained, severe negative G maneuver as their first line of defense, which most definitely lends an air of the surreal to the engagement. While there were a lot of things I didn't like about WWIIOL - or the pilot fatigue model they used - I'm beginning to believe that I might welcome something similar here to keep some pilots a bit more "honest" when it comes to negative G maneuvers. A 2 second 450 mph transition (it's of much too long of a duration to call it a "bunt") from horizontal to near vertical followed by a half roll and a near max G turn out is not something you'd ever want to do for real. But here...
<S>
We get fresh planes and fresh pilots every sortie though, so why does it matter if our pilots are rtbing with their eye balls hanging out of their heads and their wings' structural integrity compromised?
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Sometimes, but not EVERY time. Some of the pilots I've engaged lately are using a sustained, severe negative G maneuver as their first line of defense, which most definitely lends an air of the surreal to the engagement. While there were a lot of things I didn't like about WWIIOL - or the pilot fatigue model they used - I'm beginning to believe that I might welcome something similar here to keep some pilots a bit more "honest" when it comes to negative G maneuvers. A 2 second 450 mph transition (it's of much too long of a duration to call it a "bunt") from horizontal to near vertical followed by a half roll and a near max G turn out is not something you'd ever want to do for real. But here...
<S>
Not entirely true...
I have, during some of my aerobatic instruction i got prior to buying my airplane, did a "rolling eight sided loop" wherein you start out level, pull to 45, roll 180, push to 90 (vert) roll, pull to 45 up line, roll push to level, roll pull to 45 downline, roll and push to 90 downline, roll pull to 45 downline, roll again, push to level, then roll upright after completing the maneuver. Uncomfortable? absolutely, doable, yep, did it several times with the instructor, and a few times solo so far. I wills ay it is one of the most disorienting maneuvers I learned, but as I said before, with practice, that goes away to a large degree. And we cannot model practice in AH w/o some kind of pilot stats.
Edit.. added a diagram for better reference
(http://photos.bravenet.com/389/645/485/186E309E4B.gif)
Basically this is the maneuver. This is a simple 8 sided loop diagram, but it works to describe the moves. You basically perform this manuever as diagrammed, but add a 180 degree roll on each "straight" segment.
Sol
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I've been to over -2G R/L...eyes are fine. The guys flying acro go well over -2G, they land okay so have to assume the eyes are okay.
Hey, I'm just quoting the flight medicine. At -2 G on the Z axis, (meaning force is going through pilot from foot to head, more or less) capillaries start bursting with sustained time under the applied force. By -3 sustained, the pilot can enter red-out at any time. I didn't do the work, just telling you what the work is.
Again, the NASA certified flight maximums. You should be focusing on +Gz and -Gz
Time (min) +Gx -Gx +Gz -Gz
.01 (<1 sec) 35 28 18 8
.03 (2 sec) 28 22 14 7
.1 20 17 11 5
.3 15 12 9 4.5
1 11 9 7 3.3
3 9 8 6 2.5
10 6 5 4.5 2
30 4.5 4 3.5 1.8
What little information I can find on the structural limits of Luftwaffe WW2 aircraft, the 109F4 had the best G info.... at +7 @ 360mph / -4 @ 310 mph on the airframe.
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As far as the "Neg G pushover" it does cause a warp for me on my end, which I think Im not the only one :salute
This is how those idiotic AH urban myths start...
ack-ack
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negative G shots and brass jamming in the ejection parts is a non issue for me. If HT wants to go through the trouble (for near zero payoff) then go for it. Might as well build in random gun jams to piss EVERYONE off and out of the game.
I would rather have an SE5a or Albatross added to the new 4 plane WW1 set.
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This is how those idiotic AH urban myths start...
ack-ack
How? By someone speaking truth about what they look like on their end? I hope Im not the only one with this problem, because that means something with my system is jacked up.
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negative G shots and brass jamming in the ejection parts is a non issue for me. If HT wants to go through the trouble (for near zero payoff) then go for it. Might as well build in random gun jams to piss EVERYONE off and out of the game.
I would rather have an SE5a or Albatross added to the new 4 plane WW1 set.
can't argue there, not modeling failures is a good policy, i will just be frustrated in the game ...
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When I find one of those circle jerkin 190s running on the deck I just slow down so I'm 400 behind em, then hold my trigger down until they circle jerk up into my LOF and kill them self. :)
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Not entirely true...
I have, during some of my aerobatic instruction i got prior to buying my airplane, did a "rolling eight sided loop" wherein you start out level, pull to 45, roll 180, push to 90 (vert) roll, pull to 45 up line, roll push to level, roll pull to 45 downline, roll and push to 90 downline, roll pull to 45 downline, roll again, push to level, then roll upright after completing the maneuver. Uncomfortable? absolutely, doable, yep, did it several times with the instructor, and a few times solo so far. I wills ay it is one of the most disorienting maneuvers I learned, but as I said before, with practice, that goes away to a large degree. And we cannot model practice in AH w/o some kind of pilot stats.
Edit.. added a diagram for better reference
(http://photos.bravenet.com/389/645/485/186E309E4B.gif)
Basically this is the maneuver. This is a simple 8 sided loop diagram, but it works to describe the moves. You basically perform this manuever as diagrammed, but add a 180 degree roll on each "straight" segment.
Sol
But even with practice, do you really think a pilot could continue to fight an engagement if their first move was a full redout pushover going from horizontal to vertical in a period of 2 seconds or less, followed by a 90 degree roll and what appears to be a 6+ G pullout?
Can one of you guys who know the formula's calculate for me how many G's would be generated by an aircraft making a 90 degree turn in 2 seconds at 450 mph?
<S>
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Can one of you guys who know the formula's calculate for me how many G's would be generated by an aircraft making a 90 degree turn in 2 seconds at 450 mph?
Here is my shot at the calculation:
Velocity (V) = 450 mph = 660 fps
90 degrees (Theta) = Pi/2 radians = 1.570796 radians
Time (t) = 2 seconds
Centrifugal force is Mass times Angular Velocity squared times Radius.
Angular velocity (w) = Theta/t = 0.785398 radians/sec
Radius is determined by the distance traveled at 660 fps in 2 seconds and setting that equal to a 90 degree (Pi/2 radian) arc.
Radius (r) = V * t / Theta = 840.338 ft.
Force is mass times acceleration. To get acceleration out of the Centrifugal force, we can drop mass and be left with Angular Velocity squared times Radius.
Acceleration (a) = w2 * r = 518.36 ft/s2
Gravity (G) = 32.2 ft/s2
a = 16.1 Gs
Which seems extremely high. Which is why I am posting this to see if anyone can point out mistakes.
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I dusted off the books, and got the same answer.
I need to find and review the film of the engagement, as you (clearly) cannot pull -15.1 G's in a Tempest without ripping the wings off. (We have to subtract 1 G because he was heading toward the big round ball of dirt ...)
<S>
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I dusted off the books, and got the same answer.
Kind of makes you wonder if the 450mph or the 2 seconds is accurate. I'm guessing no since it's difficult to accurately determine what the other guy is doing.
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But even with practice, do you really think a pilot could continue to fight an engagement if their first move was a full redout pushover going from horizontal to vertical in a period of 2 seconds or less, followed by a 90 degree roll and what appears to be a 6+ G pullout?
Can one of you guys who know the formula's calculate for me how many G's would be generated by an aircraft making a 90 degree turn in 2 seconds at 450 mph?
<S>
Quite true, DURATION of G's has a large impact. During those "corners" on the rolling stop sign, (8 sided loop) it is easy to hit -4 to -5 G's, but then again, we are talking for a VERY breif period of time, less than 1 second...If they are pushing to a full redout then yanking to a near blackout state, pilot fatigue and cumulative G effects would certainly come into play, I was simply basing my opinion on what I know to be true, having experienced it. I was not aware we were talking a full redout push, to a near blackout pull. THAT would play havoc on a pilot I should think. I haven't seen this kind of maneuver used in the MA very often.. since most of the -g pushes I see are more of a "bunt" type, similar to the -G push used in the rolling stop sign, a rapid application of max -g for a very brief time.
Sol
Sol