Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: J_A_B on September 23, 2000, 08:07:00 PM
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Since we are getting the F6F-5, will it have the option to replace two of the .50's with 20mm?
My guess is it will.
First of all, several other planes are modeled with rare arament options.
Second, the F6F-5 was built with the 20mm's in mind. There was nothing stopping the Navy from using them more; the planes required no special modification to use them. It just worked out that they weren't used much. They were used though, mostly on night fighters but on some day fighters, as well.
Third, they wouldn't be a "super weapon" It would decrease the F6F's ammo load, add weight (thus degrading performance,), and be harder to aim. Fair tradeoffs.
I am also guessing that HTC has already decided on whether it will have this option or not--as stated, theyt are already working on the F6F. Maybe one of the aircraft programmers could answer this for us.
J_A_B
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Put that big radar in left wing, model its weight, model its drag, and fly the F6F only by night. Then, yes, get 20mm with the F6F5.
IF not, sorry but no 20mm. We LW people have to hear all the times we yell for MG removing option in 190s that as it wasnt a standard in LW to remove MGs from 190As, we can't do it in AH. Nothing stopped LW people to erase those MGs, isnt it?. But still we can't do it in AH.
Same with your F6F. Nothing stopped USN to put 20mm in them, but as they didnt, there is no reason why we must have an option for it.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-23-2000).]
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And BTW wich rare armament options do you mean?...the only that comes to my mind is the 4x20mm F4U1-C, only 200 built... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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I don't want F6F 20mm version...
0.50cal is sufficient to fight.
F4U is too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Mitsu
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screw 20mm cannon
6 .50's is plenty
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When they bring the f6 here it will be my regular ride.
Please dont leave it a 6 50 cal plane.
The f6 was a 2 cannon ride too. It adds a whole new dimention to the plane.
I flew a 6 50 cal f6 in aw3. Adding the 2 cannon option adds excitement. For me anyways.
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Hi
Only the nightfighters had the 20mm as far as I know so I dont think a dayfighter type should have them in the sim, sorry but it just did not happend.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Originally posted by eye:
When they bring the f6 here it will be my regular ride.
Please dont leave it a 6 50 cal plane.
The f6 was a 2 cannon ride too. It adds a whole new dimention to the plane.
I flew a 6 50 cal f6 in aw3. Adding the 2 cannon option adds excitement. For me anyways.
Yes, and Hispanos for the LW planes would really add another dimension also..
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6 Brownings only.
We aren't getting the night fighter, so lets stick with what it really used. No 20mm cannon on the F6F-5, if we get a radar equipped F6F-5NF, then fine, give it the cannon.
FWIW, the P-51D hits plenty hard with 6 fifties.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Any bets if more 20mm's were used in non-radar mounted F6F-5's than the total build of fully finished "production" Ta152's ? :-)
In fact, I feel that the most common set-up of an aircraft should be the one modeled for guns and bombs, for all aircraft. If any "in the field" mods are allowed, then all "in the field" mods should be allowed.
Too tough to program? Then stick to what was most likley to be used. If you want what was used in historic combat, ie...
"Same with your F6F. Nothing stopped USN to put 20mm in them, but as they didnt, there is no reason why we must have an option for it.
Then only allow the most common set-up. If you want what could have been, ALL bets are off for both sides.
For the Axis, long range bombers, full production of trial run aircraft, and no being out numbered 3 to 1.
For the Allies, B-29's in Europe, use of aircraft in production but not sent overseas into combat (F8 Bearcat, P-51H, P-80, F-7F Tigercat) in '45 as they were not a "must have" as the Axis was down and out and only the day of the end was in question.
MC202
Dino in Reno
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Yes, go on with late war plane set and perk projects. Thats what you will get: debates about rare, uber armed or specialized a/c. Ahhh ... very good, and we are still waiting for real and historical kites ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Perk the 20mm's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yep, agree entirely Gatt. A lot of work will be put into the perk planes yet very few people will get to use them. Hope HTC doesn't use too much time on perk planes when we could have some much needed early planes.
Regards
'Nexx'
[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 09-24-2000).]
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I don't think we should have a 20mm version of the F6F at all.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Why Santa?
I have seen alot of requests for the armament options for the Nightfighter varients of German Aircraft. For instance the Me110, Ju-88, and others.
So, why not the F6F?
Actually, I am somewhat against it myself, but I am just pointing out that it starts a dangerous precedent by picking and choosing which guns we "like" and which we "don't like".
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Why Santa?
I have seen alot of requests for the armament options for the Nightfighter varients of German Aircraft. For instance the Me110, Ju-88, and others.
So, why not the F6F?
Because we ask for a Ju88C with the weight of Radar, drag or aerials, and heavier weapons. We dont ask for a Ju88A4 with 4x20mm and 2x30mm. This is what J_A_B suggests, the weapons of a night fighter put on a day fighter. Then I will start asking for a Ju88S1 with 4x20mm and 2x30mm option, not forgetting the schrage music installation. And of course with no Radar weight and no aerial drag. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm all ok with the idea of the F6F5-N. With radar. With drag. With weight. and with 20mm. But not a day fighter with an option VERY rarely (if ever) used operationally.
We asked not so long ago for the option to remove cowl MGs from Fw190A5 and A8. We got the answer that "as it was very rarely done in WWII, you can't do it in Aces High".
So I say...Hispanos in daylight F6F fighter?
As it was very rarely done in WWII, you can't do it in Aces High.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]
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I don't think you should go down this road because what your basically doing is saying a plane can have any armament it wants provided it fits in the wing.
Taking a spit for example it could have 8x 0.303s , 4x 0.303 + 2x 20mm, 2x 0.5 + 2x 20mm or 4x 20mm.
And i dare say a lot of planes will have similar options and the truth is the F6F would lose more than it would gain if it got it's 2x 20mm with 4 cannon spits etc. flying round.
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Fw190A8 with 2x30mm Mk103s comes to mind...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I am sure that alot LW planes would lose alot also with new weapon loadout options...
but noo... everyone is against that, but they still talk about having allied planes with similar settings.
I don't find any logic in this.
If LW planes are not allowed, why would allied planes be?
Come on guys, get thinking this issue; either you're against LW and allieds different weapon loadouts or you're for them.
Not just "LW does not need, but allies do"
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First of all, I did not say whether I personally wanted to see 20mm's on Hellcats.....My post stated that I think F6F's will have them as an option.
Second, there WERE day-fighter F6F's with the 20mm's. Not a whole lot, but they did exist, and probably in greater numbers than the cannnon hog. If I had a scanner I would scan you the evidence.
If you would like added armament options for the JU-88, then ask for them. I for one wouldn't mind one bit seeing more options. It would give the Axis planeset something equivelant of B-25H's and the like.
I don't know how familiar you are with the F6F. It is NOT a late-war top of the line fighter like the other USAAF fighters. It is a mid-war design. It turns somewhere between the Spit IX and the ME-109F. Its sustained climb is about the same as the F4U, probably somewhat worse. It is dog slow, slower than the ME-109F. It also has a poor roll rate. The N1K2 can outperform it in ALL areas under 15000 feet. The F6F was designed for killing Zeros, which it does very well. Unfortunately, the arena isn't full of Zeros. Don't worry, this plane is NOT going to dominate the arena.
The 20mm option wouldn't upset play balance a bit, and would increase the effectiveness of the F6F. That is why I think it will be an option.
Personally, I'll live either way.
J_A_B
[This message has been edited by J_A_B (edited 09-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
The 20mm option wouldn't upset play balance a bit, and would increase the effectiveness of the F6F. That is why I think it will be an option.
It wouldn't upset balance either if Ju-88 would have it's 1000kg bomb options, 13mm gun replacing 7.92mm in the ventral turret.
Fw190A-8 having all those options it had.
I believe people has asked it enough many times by now...
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Verm, because it is an abberation. It's somewhat non historical, in that most F6G's dinnae have it.
Sure, add them, but then let them only fly at night.
It's taking the role of one plane and utilizing it in another. Like with the F4U-C, which was a ground pounder but in AH rules the skies in terms of K/D ratio.
If there are any errors or abberations in AH, I'd like to see 'um removed to more truly represent "real life" numbers and roles. If that means 190 gets only 2 20's, fine with me.
Just not sure I want a chog equivalent abberation more. I believe we both know how it'll be flown, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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"It wouldn't upset balance either if Ju-88 would have it's 1000kg bomb options, 13mm gun replacing 7.92mm in the ventral turret.
Fw190A-8 having all those options it had"
--Fishu
Yep...and I agree that thoose should be options, too.
Really, though, a F6F with the 20mm's wouldn't be much more effective than a normal F6F. It would just be a different option.
FYI, F6F performs a lot like the Macci 202--definately not a high-class performer. Instead, the big advantages of the F6F were stability and ease of operation from carriers.
J_A_B
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I really hate arguing for the side I'm against but here goes.
Santa, your already repeating the "Luftbabble" that the others have started without doing any research.
The F6F-XN (X= 3's & 5's) aircraft were not "abberations".
Of the total of 12,200 F6F's produce, almost 1,700 were F6F-XN's (about 1,400 -5N's and the rest -3N's) . There was also according to the information on the Navy site, that states that some of the straight F6F-5's (non night fighters) built from late 1944 onwards were also armed with the x2 20mm + x4 .50's, but it doesn't state a number. So I will use the number >1,700.
Now, How many Fw190A8's were built with x2 30mm Mk108's, x2 20mm MG151's, and carried Wgr21's ? Or how many Me109F4's were built with 20mm gondola's? Or G10's armed with the 30mm Mk108 and the x2 20mm gondola's? I may be wrong, but I don't think there were even a total of 1,700 G10's produce at all (I do know there were only about 700 K4's produced).
So how is the F6F-5N's with 20mm's any more of an "aberration" than the Luftwaffe aircraft I just mentioned?
Now, I agree that the version with x6 .50's is the representative model. However as I have pointed out, we have many Luftwaffe aircraft that have most if not all possible armament options, even the "non-representative" ones.
I'm just saying that you have to judge on the same basis. If one type gets all "the goodies", so should the others.
Like with the F4U-C, which was a ground pounder
Ah... now I'm starting to see that your just repeating what you see on this board about American aircraft, without doing your own research (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Nothing wrong with that but be careful, because alot of it is bias'd and not true (ie. alot of the stuff from your historical squadron compatriots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ).
The F4U-1C was not designed as a "ground pounder". It may have served in that role somewhat, and it certainly excels in that role in AH, but it was not designed to be that way.
The F4U-1C was merely the first fighter (and one of the actual few designs that reached the combat zone before the end of the war) designed to a new Navy philosophy on armament.
While the US Army was a proponent of the .50 heavy machine gun, The US Navy had decided by early to mid 1944 that the 20mm hispano armed aircraft were far superior to the .50's armed aircraft, and that future designs and production of aircraft would be armed exclusively with the 20mm's.
Might I suggest the book:
"Report of Joint Fighter Conference, NAS Patuxent River, MD 16-23 Oct. 1944"
Edited by Francis Dean (also the author of "America's Hundred Thousand")
ISBN #: 0-7643-0404-6
There is a chapter in it that talks about the Navy's decision in detail, and how they planned to implement it. In fact the Army representatives argued in great detail with the Navy personnel at this conference on the issue.
The only reason that more x4 20mm armed Navy fighters didnt' see combat was merely a problem of availability and a change over in production.
But the 20mm Hellcats were there, and in appreciable numbers.
Personally, I don't care what the Hellcats will be armed with, I won't be flying any of them since they do not fit my flying style tastes.
I just see them all targets. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
However I think we do need to use the same standards for possible armament options across the board, whether its American, Japanese, Russian, Bristish, or Luftwaffe.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Perfectly right, Verm. Bring the F6F5-N. With hispanos. With Radar. WIth Radar weight. With Radar drag. Its perfectly okay with me.
What's not okay with me is to put a daylight fighter with the F6F5-N weapons but not its drawbacks.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Like with the F4U-C, which was a ground pounder but in AH rules the skies in terms of K/D ratio.
<sniff> <sniff>
Is this that same old rotten bait?
Santa are you going run the k/d numbers of the F4 against the two FW's, removing ground targets from the counts?
Or just go ahead and admit you are trolling? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by RAM:
Perfectly right, Verm. Bring the F6F5-N. With hispanos. With Radar. WIth Radar weight. With Radar drag. Its perfectly okay with me.
What's not okay with me is to put a daylight fighter with the F6F5-N weapons but not its drawbacks.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]
RAM, Re-read Verm's Post, Not ALL of the F6F's equipped with 2x20/4x50cal were night fighters. There WERE F6F's that were NOT night-fighters that were equipped as such.
I'm very fond of the F6F, yes, Yes i would like to see the option available to use 2x20/4x50, OR 6x50. will i be dissappointed if the option is not there? sure. I won't whine and cry about it tho, because i can see HTC's POV if they choose not to model it. I would also love to see the many different options that the LW machines (I.E. 190) have available to them modeled as well. As you know RAm i have the Utmost respect for your abilities as a pilot, but i think you are being a hair close-minded on this issue. <S!>
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Hamish!
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/assassins2.gif)
(On Leave)
<===<The ASSASSINS>===> (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
[This message has been edited by Hamish (edited 09-24-2000).]
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I dont see whats wrong with the 6*50s...
I fly the mustang almost exclusiley and i find the 6 50 cals by far a superior gun package to a 2 * 20 mm package. set your convergence right, learn not to rely on 1 ping turbo lazer kills, and you'll find 6 50 cals shred planes very easily.
Im not against it, just think people underestimate a 6 50 cal set up.
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Vermillion,
You just forget one thing...
US had alot better capabilities for mass production than German.
Simply said: If there was done 50 tanks that destroyed over 500 tanks, should we now leave it because there wasn't made +500 pieces of it?
This isn't simulator anyway, so what are you worrying vermillion, the great allied whiner?
(well, what else could I say about you.. you're talking against LW time to time)
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Originally posted by Toad:
<sniff> <sniff>
Is this that same old rotten bait?
Santa are you going run the k/d numbers of the F4 against the two FW's, removing ground targets from the counts?
Or just go ahead and admit you are trolling? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Being rather dense I don't quite get what point you are making, but as an aside I have run those numbers in the past for other reasons. The F4U-1C has the highest k/d against purely fighters (no buffs, no ground targets) but its is only very slightly ahead of the FW190A5. The margins aren't spectacular though: the F4U-1C kills the opponent 60.2% of the time. Most planes are near 50% while a few dogs, like the Spit V are down around 33%. This is for 1.03 not the revised FM of 1.04.
715
Oops.. forgot to add a bit of info possibly relevant to his topic: the cannon hog does way better than the 50 cal hog (60.2% vs 38.9%)
[This message has been edited by 715 (edited 09-24-2000).]
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How common was the mg151 load out on the mc205?
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Pongo,
the first series came out lightly armed (spring-summer 1943). Then, directly from the third series on, all C.205s mounted 2x20mm cannons.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 09-25-2000).]
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Toad, no. This was just meant to illustrate that its primary purpose was a2g, and in AH it is used as a2a with very great success. That the info I got from some dudes (yanks, believe it or not) was wrong I dinnae know.
In terms of abberations, I mean "who saw real combat". Few cannon armed hogs did. And, as I said, remove all the armament you want from the 190's, I don't care, as long as it better represents the average 190 which saw battle.
But, it has to be said that with the new FM changes, the A5 is far from the über plane it was just after 1.03. And consequently, most dweebs have abandonded it.
Tour 8 (not all of it 1.04 iirc)
The F4U-1C has 9326 kills and has been killed 5633 times.
The Fw 190A-5 has 2738 kills and has been killed 2275 times.
At least a bit telling. Go ahead, subtract groundtargets (which the chog can kill with cannons with ease, and the A5 not (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-25-2000).]
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Fishu you totally miss the point.
I personally don't want to see the cannons on the F6F, but I realize that for me to argue against it, is hypcritical. I don't care which aircraft we're discussing from which country. I'm just interested in applying the same standards to them all.
So if I am for the armament options on the C.205, the Fw190, the F4U, the P51, the Yak-9U, or the Me109, which I am, then its only fair if I argue for the same "rights" for people who like other aircraft types.
A F6F-5N, which had 1,400 aircraft produced is an "aberration", while the Fw190D9 which had about 700 produced is "an icon (in the religious sense) to the historic Luftwaffe pilots". You don't see a double standard there? Just because the US made more, then it doesn't count in your opinon?
I don't see the Luftwaffe crowd yelling for the removal of the Ostwind (the F4U-1C of ground vehicles) when there were less than 100 of them made. Talk about an aberration.
Oh wait... Let me check the stats (since you guys seem so fond of doing that).
Tour 8:
The Ostwind has 9200 kills and has been killed 4027 times
A 2.28 K/D ratio, obviously much better than the 1.65 K/D of the F4U-1C
BAN THE OSTWIND, BAN THE OSTWIND!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion the Great Allied Whiner
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 09-25-2000).]
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Verm;
Keep in mind that ground vehicles get and inflated K/D, because of manuver and ack kills. The panzer got alot this way.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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Mino, I was being a smart a## (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I wasn't serious.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
I don't see the Luftwaffe crowd yelling for the removal of the Ostwind (the F4U-1C of ground vehicles) when there were less than 100 of them made. Talk about an aberration.
Yea and germans also has only tank that has a gun (wow, LW owns the countryside now)
but I would still like to see those aircrafts...
He-162 wouldn't be bad, at least there were more made than Ostwind.
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Didn't I read somewhere that the Luftwaffe actually had an entire armored division, seperate from both the Army and the SS?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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One of the problems with this particular sim is the proclivity to go with the "what-if", "isn't that cool" vehicle, rather than the representative ones. With only 200 made, most of these in crates on ships when the A-bombs were dropped, the 4-cannon Corsair is the worst example of the lot. Any *true* Hog fan knows that his plane carries 6 x .50s and is quite happy to deal with it on those terms.
Same with any plane from any nationality. However, when discussing LW birds, keep in mind that they were more likely to "field modify" planes than other countries, so "#s *built*" is not always totally illustrative. That being said, there weren't that many F4 Kanonenbooten, certainly not as many as there were G6/R6. And, of course, the Ostwind is the ground abomination of the century.
The more often you cave in to the "ueberplane" and "gottawin" mentality, the further and further the sim will deviate from a high fidelity simulation of WWII air combat, and turn into a dweebish, freakish Quake with wings. It's just common sense: you gotta start with the planes that actually flew, and in the most numbers. If you ever get to a point where you've got all those planes (good luck!!), *then* go to the fantasy birds. But not one Claude, Stringbag or Devastator before!!!!
[This message has been edited by Stiglr (edited 09-25-2000).]
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715 & Santa,
Historically, when you subtract ground targets and targets that don't shoot back (C-47's) the F4U-1C and the FW190A5 have a K/D that's so close it is statistically insignificant. The FW190A8 is about that close as well.
I'm not going to "run the numbers" again though...it's a waste of time.
The people who KNOW this and accept it don't need to be reassured.
The people that KNOW this and don't accept it will NEVER be convince.
They'd rather be (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) at the unfairness of it all.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 09-25-2000).]
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They made more 20mm day fighter f6's than f4 1c's.
By that fact alone it should be included.
You all forgeting how slow a f6 is?
Add 20mm is just a option. Its not going to make the f6 a world beater.
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Originally posted by Toad:
715 & Santa,
Historically, when you subtract ground targets and targets that don't shoot back (C-47's) the F4U-1C and the FW190A5 have a K/D that's so close it is statistically insignificant. The FW190A8 is about that close as well.
I'm not going to "run the numbers" again though...it's a waste of time.
That's what I said, F4U1C is virtually identical to FW190A5 (60.2% vs 59.8%, v1.03 FM, fighter vs fighter) but the A8 is actually statistically lower at 44.4% (k/(k+d)). But I agree with "not running the numbers" again... it's incredibly tedious to fill in the entire matrix.
715
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Originally posted by 715:
That's what I said, F4U1C is virtually identical to FW190A5 (60.2% vs 59.8%, v1.03 FM, fighter vs fighter... 715
Oh, I absolutely agree with you.
My point is that there is a certain group that just can't live with that fact.
Just guessing, but the next thing you'll here is that "In THIS particular case, though, it's the plane, not the pilot. However, in all other cases it's the pilot not the plane."
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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With F4u C and D I find it funny that C behaves alot different from D.
I find less problems taking off in C than D.
Turn rate and climb are for C also. (even if you fire away your .50 caliber bullets in D, still no help)
Why in the h?ll somebody would make later and more produced version slower, less maneuverable and poorer climber?
That wouldn't surprise me if it would be because of Goering if I wouldn't know that F4u C is US and Goering is German.
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Vermillion,
Luftwaffe wasn't just planes and pilots. They also had their own ground forces for defending air fields ( and cities? ). I have some sort of info on them at home could check if there's something said about a tank division.
// 00/09/26 fats
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WELL.
*I* have run the numbers again. Check them out dudes; it was worth it.
I even made a point about jabbing at tsjhokk drivers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), but, based on modified K/D rate.
See thread named "Stats revisited..."
It's not tedious at all, when the numbers prove yer point. It's much worse when they (like last time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) remove the rug under yer feet.
<Pulls rug>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-26-2000).]
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Well, Santa...
Since you're immune from tedium, do this for me.
Run the numbers for EACH TOUR since the A5 and the -1C coexisted.
Subtract all vehicle kills and deaths, subtract all C-47 kills and deaths. Then figure the respective K/D's.
Then post us a tour by tour comparison, so we can see how long the "whine" has been valid.
Are you rejoicing because in an unfinished Tour 8 the numbers are at long last, not a statistical "dead heat"?
What about all the previous Tours? Are you thus admitting that the incessant "whining" was indeed unjustified?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Subtract vehicle kills.. hmm, that sounds poor.
Those guns must be count in it.
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Subtract vehicle kills.. hmm, that sounds poor.
Those guns must be count in it.
Well...
A vehicle gets the kill because:
- A vehicle shoots down a plane
- A plane crashes near vehicle
- A plane frags its own bellybutton on bomb drop
- Ack kills plane and vehicle is near
"Vehicle Kills" where the of the vehicle gun actually makes the kill would be too hard to calculate.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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C47's are valid air targets and even a 202 can take one down, so I'll detract only vehicles.
Tour 5:
190A5: 9049 kills, 6342 deaths.
K/D: 1.42.
Modified K/D rate:
(9049 -73 - 396-60)/(6342-37-283-303)
K/D: 1.49
F4U-C: 10537 kills, 6142 deaths.
K/D: 1.71
Modified K/D rate:
(10537-58-1135-1048)/(6142-21-660-426)
K/D: 1.65
Tour 6:
190A5: 8383 kills, 5430 deaths
K/D: 1.54
Modified K/D rate:
(8383-58-368-53)/(5430-19-250-179)
K/D: 1.59
F4U-C:8323 kills, 4661 deaths
K/D: 1.79
Modified K/D rate:
(8323-130-895-789)/(4661-49-430-478)
K/D: 1.76
Tour 7:
190A5: 9805 kills, 6918 deaths
K/D rate: 1.42
Modified K/D rate:
(9805-88-447-67)/(6918-32-330-174)
K/D rate: 1.44
F4U-C: 12335 kills, 7160 deaths
K/D rate: 1.72
Modified K/D rate:
(12335-208-1409-1217)/(7160-39-663-646)
K/D rate: 1.63
Tour 8: (taken from other thread)
190A5: K/D: 1.22
Modified K/D: 1.31
F4U-C K/D: 1.66
Modified K/D: 2.0
Tour 8 is an exception, since parts of it has been flown with revised FM.
Stats show pre 1.04 Dweeb A5 at a modified K/D of around 1.49. Pre 1.04 F4U-C has one around 1.68. A 0.19 difference. Then, as we all know, there were major issues with the A5 flight model, it had too much ammo, and had an fuel tank it shouldn't.
I'm not entirely sure what you want me to show with this comparison. That the A5 was dweeby? Aye, and I stated so at the time. It was fixed, and the A5 dweebs migrated.
What is interesting is comparing the F4U-C with the F4U-D - you'll find a difference much larger than the 10-20% in fm performance the C has over the D. The answer is cannons. I bet that if you put .50's in an A8 and cannons in another, you'd see a difference as well, but probably not as large (as .50's trajectory is much better than those German 20mm's).
Do guns make 100% of a difference, or are more skillfull people flying the C? You be the judge; I've already got an opinion on that.
Toad wrote:
Then post us a tour by tour comparison, so we can see how long the "whine" has been valid.
Well, if we start off with agreeing that the A5 FM was seriously flawed, it carried too much ammo and too much fuel, we have a good start. It was basically a dweebmobile.
Are you rejoicing because in an unfinished Tour 8 the numbers are at long last, not a statistical "dead heat"?
Bet ya five bucks the stats won't change significantly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). And, what you're doing is comparing the C to a Dweebmobile - and it comes out on top - everytime and even with modified K/D! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
What about all the previous Tours? Are you thus admitting that the incessant "whining" was indeed unjustified?
Nope, was fully justified. I should have whined more about the A5 though. I did whine about that one too, but not as much. Thankfully, that one is now fixed.
Now I forgot what my point was. <scratches head>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-26-2000).]
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C-47's? No, they can't shoot back. There is absolutely NO RISK in attacking a drone, unless can't avoid mother earth. No ACM involved at all.
You want evaluate the ability of the airplane to kill in combat, right? Not just target shoot? (Although I doubt K/D is much of an indicator of anything, given the way the game is played in the MA)
I think you need to run the numbers again, as it makes a real difference, IIRC.
I ran the numbers for Tour 7 in your "least popular plane topic", posted 08-08-2000 09:32 AM, and I quote:
"Well, what happens when we focus on Air-to-Air kills?
Here's a view of the F4U-1C vs the FW190-A5 when you remove ground vehicles and the denfenseless C-47 (simply a big, slow target) from the Tour 7 stats.
F4U-1C
Totals 2316 Kills, 1359 Killed
then subtract ground vehicles and the defenseless flying target...
against M3 36/3
against Panzer 209/123
against M16 226/102
against C47 51/6
Totals 1794 Kills 1125 Killed
k/D is 1.59
Now the FW190-A5
Totals 2093 Kills 1336 Killed
against M3 23/13
against Panzer 13/35
against M16 103/58
against C47 34/2
Totals 1930 Kills 1228 Killed
K/D is 1.57"
So I got F4 1.59 vs FW 1.57, essentially identical K/D.
Leaving the defenseless drone C-47's in, you got F4 1.64 vs FW 1.44.
Take the drones out of all of them and see how it looks.
Anyway, my point is that folks have been crying about the -1C as too "uber", a "dweebmobile", and all that other dross, using the "Sacred K/D Stats" to support their argument. At the same time the -A5 has had essentially the same K/D. THAT'S what I find funny. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Do cannons make a difference? I hope so..they make a difference in every other plane in the planeset. AH clearly rewards cannon armed planes and planes armed with 4 cannons it rewards the most. Is this news?
OK, now you come back with the standard LW reply: "well, in the F4 it's the plane NOT the pilot...in the FW, it's the pilot not the PLANE" chant.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Minotaur:
Well...
A vehicle gets the kill because:
- A vehicle shoots down a plane
- A plane crashes near vehicle
- A plane frags its own bellybutton on bomb drop
- Ack kills plane and vehicle is near
"Vehicle Kills" where the of the vehicle gun actually makes the kill would be too hard to calculate.
[/B]
As I understand, from F4u and Fw190 stats has no Vehicle kills / deaths counted in.
But that kill out of vehicles is important here.
F4u will most definately win any LW plane in vehicle killing.
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Toad, they cannot shoot back, but a C-47 is DEAD even if it means a c202. And hogs and c202's have *the same likelihood* of running across one.
I've proven my point and rest my case, with the C47 and the tjshokk in general. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Also, if you find it funny with the A5, whicvh was admittedly a Dweebmobile overmodelled so it was ludicrious, don't ya find it funny that it was outdone by a "realistically modelled" aircraft?
And no, I ain't a member of the LW cheer leader team, so don't even go there bud (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-27-2000).]
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Well, then add in 1000 more kills for the FW in Tour 8. Because I just shot down Ronni, Nate, Yankee and Supe in P-51's. Well, they were drones offline, but hey, a drone's a drone! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) No more skill to it than that.
You're satisfied because leaving them out favors your argument. Afraid to look at both sides and let people make up their own minds? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What if the F4 and it's guns ARE accuarately modeled? Scary thought, huh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Toad, it doesn't "favour my argument". And you've yet to come up with a reason why they should be left out. They do not skew the kill stats; all plane have an equal opportunity of meething them
Maybe we should remove c202 kills too - and JU88's, those are almost defenseless.
That big fat Lanc is also just a target when properly attacked.
I also have a limit to how tedious something can be. You want revised stats - just subtract the c47 and any other plane of your wish.
Tour 8 is not finished yet. You want that bet that it doesn't change much? Five buck.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Well, when I get home, I'll do a set without the drone.
What does target shooting have to do with fighter capability?
Bet the K/D's are closer.
Until then, let's see what the rest of the troops think.
How about it guys? Count the drone or not?
Tour 8 may not change much. You said a lot of FW drivers have dropped out of it as soon as it was fixed? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
What does target shooting have to do with fighter capability?
F4u C gets good bonus of being more agile than D and exagerated tank killer...
Just A wallpaper for mud movers (http://www.netsonic.fi/~fishu/bg/WW2_guns_bg1.zip)
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God I luv Big Blue. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)I know Fishu does also he just can't admit to it in public shhhh...
Your secrets safe with me.
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Toad, no, the LW types stayed. The dweebs (well, the non LW dweebs) left, and went to the N1K or tsjhokk (from what the stats suggest). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Originally posted by Torque:
God I luv Big Blue. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)I know Fishu does also he just can't admit to it in public shhhh...
Your secrets safe with me.
I tend to fly every plane except Japanese... (I wonder why, but I've never liked Japanese planes)
Though, I can't say that I would love hogs, even if I've liked those in WarBirds..
It is too blue for my taste (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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There won't be a 20mm option unless we do the nightfighter version.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations