Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Pongo on May 26, 2000, 12:55:00 AM
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I would ask for the following.
BF109G6
be upgraded to AS model
FW190A8
Be given MW50
Jabo version with
No mw50
Cluster bomb.
R4M rockets
Mk103 gondolas
AP load out for the mg151s
Some extra armour
FW190A5
Have the 2 stage supercharger like grafs machine.
Tune the cockpit graphics to the quality of the newer planes.(real snivel there)
All aircraft have option of leaving off cowl guns. When wing guns are not selected remove them from plane graphic
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YEH second all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
When the Yak comes, I bet I'll be flying a lot of A5, so it better be good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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What's this about an A-5 with a two stage blower? As far as I know such a machine did not exist. Are you thinking of GM-1?
A-8 was not built with R4M or MK 103. You must be thinking of another plane.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-26-2000).]
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There was an a5 with a 2 stage blower.(my dragon 190a5 is has the markings and its in LW aces of the western front plate 9.
I know but how hard would it be to have a 190f8...
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 05-26-2000).]
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How about a BMW 801F(2400hp) engine in the Fw 190A-5? Make it fly a bit better.
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Pongo, see my other post about the rockets, and you are right that they should be on an F-8 or F-9. But including prototype items like MK 103 is about the same as including the X-4. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The problem with MW 50 on the A-8 is that AFAIK there is no flight test data or engine power data showing power vs. altitude.
I have several books which cover the engine development of the 190 in detail, and the only two-stage BMW 801 was the 801E which was not produced and was never fitted on a 190. It was a longer engine, and would have required a major redesign.
I'm guessing somebody confused "two-stage" and "two-speed" somewhere along the line, hence the remark in the Osprey book. The external supercharger intakes were not uncommon, used on A-3/U7, A-5/U3, A-6/R4, as well as various F and G series planes.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-26-2000).]
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< doesnt know the difference between two stage and two speed. But knows its unsafe to assum
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Huh?
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I dont know what the diff between the two types of super charger are. But wouldnt either have an effect on the performance of the AC?
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Two-stage supercharger is actually two superchargers in series. The second stage is useful at high altitude when your first stage can't provide enough boost. Air goes into the second stage, gets compressed, then goes to the primary stage and gets compressed some more. This was used on the later Merlin engines (Spit IX, P-51B onward) as well as the R 2800 in the F4U and F6F.
Two speed supercharger is just a single blower with a dual-speed transmission. So when you hit an altitude where your blower can't provide enough boost in first gear, you shift into second gear and away you go. Most planes in WW2 had a multi-speed blower.
The Fw 190A/F/G/S had a two-speed single-stage blower. The speed was was controlled automatically by the Kommandogerät.
A two-stage unit for the BMW 801 would have really helped the 190 at high altitudes, but it never appeared. Tank was forced to try turbocharging, which didn't work out due to metallurgy problems. So Tank was forced to go elsewhere for engines, which is why the Jumo 213 and DB 603 ended up in the Fw 190D and Ta 152.
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What where the extra intakes on Grafs A5 for then?.
Hes the leader of a high alt fighter squadron. And he has a specialy modified A5 that several sources state is a 2 stage super charger. You say it cannot be one. Then what was it. But that is enought I suppose.
All we need is some doubt about any German capability to get it ruled out of the game, while all we need is some hope of an Allied capability to get it in.
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Pongo;
Not sure exactly either as to their effect on in-flight performance.
As to the compressors. Two Stage implies that there are basicaly two air compressors (blowers / air pumps). They are physically connected in series. The discharge of the first provides the suction to the second. This provides a two step change in the boost pressure.
Uses for this type of compressor (non-aircraft), generally appear in applications where a high flow rate is desired. The horspower requirements are more efficient, than a single high pressure change across a single stage compressor.
I have a two 7 stage air blowers running downstairs.
The compressor has two main requirements for torque or horsepower (supplied by the engine). They are to compress (raise the pressure) and to pump (move)the air.
I suspect that the two stage blower would be marginally more efficient concerning Hp use, but the additional weight and complexity might be an offset vs a single stage compressor.
Truth be known, I wonder if it was actually a "Two Speed Two Stage" compressor, the name being truncated for common usage.
Interesting discussing fellas... Thanks! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Pongo, as I pointed out, quite a few Fw 190A/F/G were built with the external supercharger intake. This type of intake uses the "ram" effect to increase manifold pressure.
There is a tradeoff though - additional drag.
At low altitudes, the 801 could generate excess manifold pressure from the supercharger alone. I.e. Manifold pressure below rated altitude was limited by detonation, not by supercharger capacity. Any additional pressure from the ram effect would be vented via the wastegate. So at low altitude, all the external intake did was add drag.
But above the rated altitude of the engine, this extra pressure from the intake can be used, and it was apparently worth the extra drag.
These intakes first appeared A-3/U7 which was a lightened high-altitude version of the A-3. I have also heard of them on A-5 and A-6 which were equipped with GM-1 for high altitude work. On F and G series planes they were used with air filters for duty in the desert and on the dusty steppe.
I have performance figures for an A-8 with GM-1, but I can't find anything for a plane with the external air intakes. I'll poke around some more tonight.
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"All we need is some doubt about any German capability to get it ruled out of the game, while all we need is some hope of an Allied capability to get it in."
Gotta be kidding me...
First of all, I don't make these decisions, Pyro does.
Second, I am a big Fw 190 fan, and I'm only engaging in this discussion to learn more about the development of the plane. You say two-stage supercharger and my ears perk up.
If you've got sources, tell me! What were some Werknummers for planes in Graf's Staffel? Was there a particular Umrustbausatz number associated with these planes? Any special designation for the engine? Performance figures?
Unless you've got anything, I tend to think it's more likely that the Osprey people confused two-speed with two-stage, than it is likely that 5 different historians of Fw 190 development completely missed a critical innovation in BMW 801 development.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-26-2000).]
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What exactly is a 109G6 AS model, and how is it different from the "normal" model?
(Not a trick or troll or anything, just want to know)
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you guys remember when the p38 came out?
funked neutered it real good for us (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
thanks funked
oh that was an american plane too
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LOL I'm an equal opportunity amazinhunk. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Funked
I know you have the goods on these AC and an apparently great research library. I appreciate your clearifications. I am sure that Pyro has great numbers on these aircraft and both of you know a hell of a lot more about it then me.
But I feel that the game has a strong allied bias. Every time I put the nose down on my G10 I feel that certainly other counties planes must have had this accelerate to death problem...but no it was a specifically german problem. As I slowly drag my 190 to 20k behind the spits and p38s my squadies fly I wonder at the utility of such a pig of an Aircraft. When I see how its handling is crippled by its normal 4 cannon armement load I am amazed that the vast majority of FWs in use used that load out.
So Ya, I think that people in this game that want better representations of german planes are "whiners" and people that have a gripe about US planes are a "lobby". And HTC is in the lobby. In spite of your protests to the contrary and the excellent way you represnt your point of view...so are you.
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oh that was an american plane too
Yeah, but it wasn't a Spitfire, was it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh, and Pongo... remember that the A8 version we have in AH is the 'Sturmbock' version, with extra armour and no MW50.
Don't think of it as a fighter, because it certainly wasn't .... it was a pure bomber interceptor - nothing more.
Frankly, I'm amazed that it does as well as it does in the AH arena. Maybe that's why it was neutered in the modelling. Imagine the A8 weighing 900lbs less, and with an extra 400hp at its command!
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
What exactly is a 109G6 AS model, and how is it different from the "normal" model?
(Not a trick or troll or anything, just want to know)
There was a fairly large variaty of engines that went into Bf109Gs. The early and typical 109G6 was equiped with a DB605. There were 700 or so 109g6s that had the DB605As engine. It was a normal 605 with a uprated supercharger for higher altitude.
MW50 and GM1 upgrades to the engine were also common, but not present in the G6 in the game apperantly.
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Jekyll
Is the A8 a sturm model? I really dont think it was intended to be one, but I am not sure. It certainly is not more robust then the other aircraft in the game. I just think that Pyro thinks the plane was a pig.
But if it was a bomber interceptor then it is unfortunate that its intended prey has been deliberatly increased in defensive fire and damage resistance. Mostly in response to the capabilities of the F4U-1c.
But like a person in an unhealthy relationship I love the plane. And I enjoy flying it. I just dont think that it gets a fair shake here.
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Pongo, you have left the realm of fact and entered the world of fantasy and conspiracy theories. Good luck, I doubt you will find any satisfaction.
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Funked..
Dont try to hide your agenda and Ill give more weight to your concerns for my mental health.
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LOL hidden agenda! Yes I am part of the evil underground anti-Luftwaffe conspiracy... MUAHAHAHA!
You have no idea how funny this is for me, because on AGW I have been accused of having a pro-Axis agenda on many occasions.
The problem is that people on both sides of the argument don't like to hear the facts. They have a mental picture of how it "should be" and they reject any information that doesn't fit the picture. I get a kick of finding and presenting such information. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Well I have readily admited that I am primarily coming from the how "I imagined it" base. You seem to keep being suprised by that..But bud you are a Spit dweeb....
And MW50 in a Fw190A8 and 109G6 was not a fantasy.
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Ooooooooooh name calling! The last resort of a loser.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-26-2000).]
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What was the performance impact of the G6AS? Before and after if possible. Speed and climb
would do nicely. Oh and when was it introduced?
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Pongo, AFAIK the A8 we have in AH is the Sturm model, extra armour and no MW50.
Funked is well aware of that, in fact, HE brought it to my attention.
So we have a purely anti-buff A8 trying to do the air-superiority dance in Aces High.
Like I said, I continue to be amazed that it does as well in the stats .... must be some durn fine 190 pilots out there. Imagine them in a MW50 A8 or (god-forbid) a D9!
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Nashwan:
The G/AS was very close to the G-10 performancewise according to Oleg Maddox's research. (IL-2 game producer)
So since the G-10 is allready in the game there is not much use to put the G/AS into the game also.
Historicly the G/AS fighters gave Luftwaffe a reasonable good high alt escortfigher to protect its "bomber-busters" in late 1943.
But it seems to have been quite rare til spring 1944 when the "Light" Gruppe of each Geschwader seems (according to OOB) to have been equipped with G/AS fighters.
Might have been due to production troubles of some kind that delayed its "mass" deployment.
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Nattulv
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
[This message has been edited by LLv34 Nattulv (edited 05-27-2000).]
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I think it would be somewhat slower than a G10. But instead we end up with a G6 that is like a heavy G2. No MW50 and No GM1. No AS engine.
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
Pongo, AFAIK the A8 we have in AH is the Sturm model, extra armour and no MW50.
Funked is well aware of that, in fact, HE brought it to my attention.
So we have a purely anti-buff A8 trying to do the air-superiority dance in Aces High.
Like I said, I continue to be amazed that it does as well in the stats .... must be some durn fine 190 pilots out there. Imagine them in a MW50 A8 or (god-forbid) a D9!
Hehe time for PILL_MAN coming!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Jekyll in answer to your fears, Fw190A8 does so well in MA because JG2 flies it with regular timing (I do it all time), and the few people outside us that does it so are rel hotsticks (MANDOBLE, Pongo, Funked...sometimes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), Trimmer...)
The plane is a pig. But is flown by heartly 190 lovers. If you give us the A5...hehehehe we are going to hear some serious whinin on MA...and if you give us MW50 to A8 the cries are going to be louder than Cannonhawg's whines (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
D9 will be a loooong wait. But when I start to catch runnin mustangs it will make good the awaiting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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at least the g6 in AH is the standard issue 109g6, not the rare hot rod converted one.
thats good to know for scenarios where you actually try to replay historical events.
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Originally posted by Citabria:
at least the g6 in AH is the standard issue 109g6, not the rare hot rod converted one.
thats good to know for scenarios where you actually try to replay historical events.
I understand what you say Citabria,and strange as it is I agree with you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
I think the best choice should be what I stated some time before, make Boosters an option to be chosen in Hangars, not an standard plane modelled around it.
I know it would be more workload for Pyro, but I think the results would be worth the time spent.
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I agree with ya too Cit. I really dont want to get rid of the vanila G6-AM. They definatly had the varios boost systems available though.
I never knew befor this post that all BF109g6-as versions had the g10ish nose and the tall tail.
Well I definatly want the bump nose 109 so I guess we stay with the one we have. Hope they hadnt allready started the AS artwork..... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Pyro chose very well with the planes he chose for the game so far. Except for one. I think HT put him up to that one.
So I guess Funked stomped on the 103 gondola I requested. I cant do without my bump nosed 109 so the AS is canceled. The MW50 for the 190A8 is not a go for some reason. I still dont understand that one really.
Oh well. I guess I will weuger on with what I have and hope that the A5 gets the kind of generosity that went into the SpitVb Flight model.
Lots of good info in the two related posts. Thanks Funked and all for the effort.
>[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Pongo, sorry I am so grumpy...
The MK 103 installation has been a favorite of mine since I built a Monogram 1/48 Fw 190 as a kid that had the MK 103 as an option. When I started flying Warbirds, I couldn't understand why we didn't have it in the game, so I went on a hunt. And I found both US and German authors saying the MK 103 was on just a few planes that were modified and tested in Germany, and not found satisfactory, so the project was cancelled. The rockets were a winner though, see the other thread I started about that.
About MW 50 on the Fw 190A, it's been a personal crusade of mine to try to find some solid information on it, so we could get in Warbirds. I've bought all kinds of books, gone to the USAF historical archives, talked with a guy who went through the RAE archives. And all I've been able to find is a couple of prototypes. No flight test data, no information on production numbers and dates, no Rustsatz number and no engine data other than a 2100 hp claim (which is sometimes also applied for the D-9 which has a completely different engine).
The thing that clinched it for me is the A-8 handbook - it goes into detail on the boost systems. There was a supplemental petrol injection system that was referred to in the past tense, a boost override system (which gave equivalent performance to the supplemental petrol injection), and a GM-1 system. The boost override gives the performance that some authors attribute to the MW 50 system. And the GM-1 system matches the physical description that some authors give for the MW 50 system.
I'm pretty sure that somewhere along the line, somebody (RAF, Jane's?) mixed up MW 50 with one of the other boost systems, a few authors used this information in their books, and here we are...
I'm still talking with some guys from Ruy Horta's 12 O'Clock High board about the subject, maybe we'll find something.
I haven't tested the AH Fw 190A-8 above 8km to see if it performs like a GM 1 plane. That might be something to ask Pyro for. No production figures on that one, but it was common enough to merit a Rustatz number (R4), and there are records for many prototypes with that system. Also it helps the 190A in an area where it is truly deficient - fighting above 25,000 feet.
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You wherent grumpy Funked. I was behaving exactly the way you described. And often will.
The 103 is also in the Dragon 190A8 kit. The one with the picture of Priller wacking a 51d over the landing beaches...
Good luck with your search.
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I guess I mean I'm sorry for jumping on your post like that, shooting down your ideas so fast. If they weren't interesting ideas that were fun to discuss I wouldn't have been so eager.