Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Citabria on July 14, 2001, 10:26:00 PM
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so tough that it survived the tremendous forces of a glacier for over 40 years and is now being restored to flying condition.
(http://home.carolina.rr.com/airbearsden/images/DCP00397.jpg)
I've seen pictures of p38's with half their tails shot off, 37mm holes in the wings and numerous accounts of severe damage sustained... yet the p38 kept flying and got their pilot home.
the p-38 pilots loved headons! they didnt have the problem of their wings and etc falling off from a few hits.
a p38 has even colided head on with a 109 turning the 109 into a wingless twisted wreck... the p38 returned home and belly landed.
did you know the p-38 had 2 radiators for each engine?
[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: Citabria ]
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Preach on Cit! We're with you! :D :)
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1st cit, a glacier is a good place to hide something from the dmg cause by enviromental forces like wind, rain etc. look at the mammoth in sibiria.
And stories about planes coming home after incredible dmg are there for every type of plane.
He are some i found while reading the histories of JG26 and III./JG54
A fw190 collided with a spit in midair, losing the outer quarter of the the wing and the aileron, pilot had no prob to fly home and land it safety, the spit fell apart and crashed.
Another one was hit by 20+ 0.5 cals, coming home with the pilot not even noticing them and landing back at base. There they discovered that 3 0.5 had torn through one prob blade, 2 were stop by the pilots seat armor etc.
In Op "Bodenplatte" a D9 pilot had the bad luck to collided with a tree when flying in low level. Cutting of last 4 meters of the tree. returned home with the plane vibrating a bit, when landed, i was found that each prob blade was "a bit" shorter than before.
and so on and so on
P.S. i agree the vertikal stabilizer of the P38 falls of if u only look angry at him, this should be fixed
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warren bodies book on the p38 contains some interesting pictures.
1 of them shows a p38 that returned from a straffing mission after coliding with a telephone poll
another shows a p38 that landed after coliding head on with a halifax BOMBER! the halifax' vert stab was embeded in the left wing of the p38
tac I'm sure has massive amounts of pictures of p38s returning with rediculous amounts of damage.
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Originally posted by Naudet:
1st cit, a glacier is a good place to hide something from the dmg cause by enviromental forces like wind, rain etc. look at the mammoth in sibiria.
my point about the glacier is the density of the p38 is very high. there was also a b17 that ditched with the p38's. they found the b17 but the glacier had crushed it and torn it apart. the p38 was incredibly well built
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Not trying to piss in your wheaties, but the reason why the B17 was damaged while the P38 was not is due to the fact that the B17 didn't fill up with snow/ice completely but the 38 did.
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and why did it fill up completely with ice/snow?
(http://home.carolina.rr.com/airbearsden/images/DCP00399.jpg)
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Cit,
A glacier is a cumulative effect. The farther down the plane is, the more pressure it would see. If it were like 30 or 40 feet down.. it would be crushed. 80 feet is enough to turn ice into jello... thus causing the glacier to flow.
Take a trip to Alaska some time and learn tons of useless glacier trivia ;)
AKDejaVu
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the p38 was under 268 feet of ice. it did not turn to jello
(http://thelostsquadron.com/recov9.jpg)
the b17 they located next to it was a twisted mess
(http://thelostsquadron.com/recovf2.jpg)
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First of all, the B17 might have been crushed on landing already..
Secondly, the reason those planes were found in that depth is that heavy objects tend to melt their way through ice. Hang a weight hanging from a block of ice with a metal string.. the string will melt its way through the ice (also the block of ice will freeze again being left intact after the wire melted all the way through.)
So taking this into consideration, the ice was probably not crushing the planes THAT much unless it moved. More likely they were floating to the bottom of the glacier in the small melted bubble they created in the ice.
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my point is the Aces High P-38 damage model is to flimsy
the p38 should be much more resiliant in Aces High than it is currently
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the B-17 was not damaged that bad, it looks like a normal belly landing. I have seen several pictures myself.
I would have to agree with the person above who stated that the 38 filled up with water from melting or what ever and it froze, thus it was not crushed like the b-17 was. its kinda like filling a bottle with water, put the cap back on and then drop it to 20,000ft below the ocean, it will not be crushed, but do that with an empty glass bottle and it will be crushed. maybe because of the size of the B-17 that is why it did not fill up with ice?? who knows but god?
cit, give up on the 38 here. it will give you more peace and serinity here because it is way too anti P-38. play another sim :)
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why would I have pics of badly damaged 38's? They ALL came home UNDAMAGED and with lotsa kills! :) :) :D
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Citabria,
FYI, ask Tac to see the photos that he took of the 38 tail I showed him. The bottom line on that portion of the aircraft, it is the weakest link in the system. Tac was amazed when I showed him what the main attachpoints in the horizontal consisted of. As for Glacier Girl, it was not as well preserved as originally believed. The spar was cracked and twisted, due to the movement of the ice. Along with a multiude of other problems that are shown on their web site. Another lot to keep in mind is also the amount of time involved in that restoration. Anything can be rebuilt, ask Tac to show you the pics of what he saw of the original Corsair we rebuilt. It hit the side of a mountain and broke into bits, literally. We also have a 38 that is being rebuilt after its colision with a mountain, and that is worse. Opinions on this subject are always going to be there, but make sure you are well aware of the facts before forming an opinion is all I ask.
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Originally posted by Citabria:
my point about the glacier is the density of the p38 is very high. there was also a b17 that ditched with the p38's. they found the b17 but the glacier had crushed it and torn it apart. the p38 was incredibly well built
They found a snowman, all pretty and neat. So, the snowman has a bone structure stronger than a B17 and equal as the P38.
Hittler cloned the snowmen and launched them to American B17s. That's why sometimes, while walking in the French countryside you find snowmen from frozenland!!!
:eek:
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Bad trip eh?
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In my opinion the damage modeling in Aces High is not as well done as many of the other program features (still better by far than the competition). Fires, ammunition being set off and single crippling hits of numerous types simply aren’t modeled. A lot more fighters should die suddenly from a round hitting in the right place (setting the engine on fire for example) and far less should die from structural failure. Bearing this in mind, the following information is from: Aircraft Vulnerability in WWII, The Rand Corporation. Pages 46-47.
Table 6 shows that roughly three of every four damaged P-47s (we able to return to base)…, compared to three of five P-38s and P-51s…
Interrogation of the 148 fighter pilots who had been lost in operations over enemy territory and later returned to England revealed that the damage to the engine, oil system, fuel system, or flight controls was involved in over half of the aircraft losses. The engines of the P-51 and the P-38, and the oil system of the P-47 were stated to have been the most vulnerable parts of the aircraft. Fire occurred in 59% of all the cases in which the circumstances of the loss were known and there was smoke in an additional 13 percent…
Contrary to what might be expected, the second engine of the P-38 probably increased the vulnerability of the airplane.
Even though the 38 was a much larger and sturdier aircraft than the 51, it was essentially as vulnerable to battle damage. Real aircraft rarely died by getting a wing or stabilizer sawed off, and compared to the US radial engined fighters the P-38 was rather fragile because it was prone to catching on fire due to the large area taken up by the 2 inline engines.
Hooligan
[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Hooligan ]
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One aspect that seems to be left out of the discussion is how would we, the users, experience more intricate damage modeling?
Bearing in mind there was no HUD to tell a pilot what was wrong with his craft, what would we be prepared to accept as feed back? A text message saying something like "elevator cable severed", or would we prefer that the plane somply didn't handle, without knowing why?
At present, I can look out the cockpit and see the damage. Could I do that with damaged or trapped control wires?
Which is more realistic, a radio fire burning out the plane, or simply to lose all text send & recieve?
Which is more realistic, a single ping Fw engine kill, or a single ping "oil spill black out" over the wind shield and the engine still runs.....which would the luftwhiners prefer?
How would a P38 pilot at 25K know the difference in our simulation between a head wind and loosing the valve seats? Could engine roughness/vibration be programmed into force feedback? What of those with out FF?
Reading about Forts, it seems a major worry for B-17 crews was a windmilling prop. Are we prepared to have a prop blade fly through the cockpit and kill us, or would that be too gamey?
And for exact realism, we ought to able to ram each other, as this tactic was documented as used by every single airforce in every single theater. Are we ready to unleash that on the arena?
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As for the ridiculous and utterly unwarranted "luftwhiner" comment Seeker we would definatly prefer the second. Fw190 and Bf109 had very nice and apparently effective windshield washers just designed with such mishaps in mind. Anyhow its a moot point as the 1 ping 190 (and P38 BTW) engine death is soon to be history my friend.... :D
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Windshield wipers for clearing oil away...
Now THAT's the best one I've heard in years!
Here's a test you can do Grunherz:
Change the oil in your car someday, save the used oil and pour it over a DRY window pane. Take a squijie (spelling?) and TRY to get all the oil off.
You'll have smudges and other nasty things covering the window pane.
-SW
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Anyhow its a moot point as the 1 ping 190 (and P38 BTW) engine death is soon to be history my friend.... :D
It's nice to know this whole issue soon will be history, but I think you see this fix as some sort of a "instant cure it all". I hope you won't be disapointed.
mx22
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I'm with Cit. It seems like the 38 is simply the most fragile plane in the entire plane set. Its a target that everyone in here drools over when they see... is it not?
xBAT
P.S. TAC we still need to do that test.
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Originally posted by batdog:
I'm with Cit. It seems like the 38 is simply the most fragile plane in the entire plane set. Its a target that everyone in here drools over when they see... is it not?
xBAT
P.S. TAC we still need to do that test.
Of course everyone drools. It's so huge, you cant miss it even with your eyes closed :D
mx22
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I'M SOORY ABUT THE LUFTWHINERS COMMENT BUT isee them whine so much ANd i'M VERY upset about this!
.) sEE! A SMIley face SO YOU KNow i'M NOt being OFFENSIVE OR DEROGITORY.
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They weren't wipers like the ones on cars SW, in fact this system didnt use wipers at all.
:) Ill let u figure out how it worked since you are obviously so "knowlegable". :D hehe
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what a hell is hard to copy about Lw planes ?
try to fly a entire tour in 190
u will need to learn shot below 300 and if u wona stay alive u need to learn be patient try the 190 a8 i ndefensive manovers vs spits and bouncing ponys
why u BIGEST ALIED HEROS cant anderstud the LW planes are not the easy birds ?
about plane toughnes , do no but it take damn big load of 20 mm from Lw palne to shot down 1 p 38 and about super jfk bulets what riping the poor P38 , well then problem is maybe in 50 caliber bulets ?
anyway ,,, wonder what exploding in 190 wing if out of ammo and no fuel in it ?????
i like to know if some 1 have logical explication plzz
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not a double post jsut forget to EXPLAIN in first post why LW fan players not HAPY.
ahh and u call this lwhiners
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Batdog:
The 38 is not remarkably fragile in the game, but it is a HUGE freaking target and easy to hit. That is what provides its appeal to the shooter.
Hooligan
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Nope, its fragile. I'm right and your wrong and I'm simply gonna be mule-headed about it.
:)
xBAT
P.S. You fly it alot?
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One thing to remember when looking at pictures of battle-damaged planes that made it home: These are the ones that survived. The ones that exploded or fell apart after a few hits didn't make it back to get photographed. They only show up on gun camera film.
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
Batdog:
The 38 is not remarkably fragile in the game, but it is a HUGE freaking target and easy to hit. That is what provides its appeal to the shooter.
Hooligan
So are all the buffs. But you don't see them fall apart with unconcentrated fire.
:)
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I flew the 38 for a tour about half a year ago. It did not seem particularly fragile to me at the time.
Nor, when I shoot them (which recently would mean shoot them from a dhog, n1k, 109g6, or La7 or in other words a large variety of gunsets) do they don't seem particularly fragile (compared to other fighters). However they are quite easy to hit since they are so big and not particularly agile and I find it easy to put a lot of lead on the target.
Of course these are just my impressions. And until somebody actually figures out a way to test the 38 durability in a reproducable fashon and posts something besides their impressions I have a feeling that Pyro isn't going to be spending too much time investigating this.
Hooligan
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Obviously not so though :)
As you can see to preserve a P38 they where forced to froze it :D
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Cool pictures Citabria.
:D +
That would be a p38 found deep in the Greenland glacier. Hard to imagine how valuable things become in just 50 years.
I was watching the excavations eagerly on the news. It was all over the Icelandic TV for the simple reason that our folks from the university found the planes with a specially designed ice-scope.
The 38's were on their way over the atlantic with a refuel stop in Reykjavik, when they received a message that the icelandic fields were closed due to bad weather. They never made it far enough to a successful landing. Ironically, the fields were not closed, and the message was false, - it came from a german U-boat.
Nobody up here ever expected the wrecks to be that intact...some strong structure :)
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Nice pics Cit, thanks.
I don't fly the P-38 much anymore. It is too hard for me to have success in the MA. I hardly see any flying and often consider them a much easier target if I do.
Take care!
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Originally posted by Citabria:
another shows a p38 that landed after coliding head on with a halifax BOMBER! the halifax' vert stab was embeded in the left wing of the p38
what i want to know is why it colided head on with a halifax bomber :p ;)
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Originally posted by Jigster:
So are all the buffs. But you don't see them fall apart with unconcentrated fire.
:)
but buffs had alot of amour
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When you ride a motorcycle and it rains, you drive faster so the wind wipes the raindrops off your helmet. It starts somewhere at 40 mph.
I would understand that at 300 IAS even the sticky oil would be wiped off by the wind.
The idea is nice, though. HOw about flying into the oil leak stream of a plane in front of you ? How about finally getting damage from parts falling off ?
As for bouncing Ponies, I have yet to see the problem. They keep bouncing up and down, lil kids try to catch them and so. You just wait when they bounce back up and shot the damn bastards ;).
[ 07-22-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
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"but buffs had alot of amour"
Not really..they just had a bigger frame to withstand damage. Go to a museum and see a real ww2 bomber, you will see their "armour" is almost nonexistent. A b17 would barely stop a round from going in.. and it would also go OUT the other side.
I wish we could have gunner killed damage in AH.. would make things MUCH better.
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P38 is though, but I suspect its not as tough as legendary P47.
My opinion is that all planes in AH gets departed too easily.
This might be due to areal damage, instead of "what damage the bullet causes".
You won't see too many shot up planes in AH since bullets will always cause that # amount of damage where they hit (and explosive bullets will cause # amount to close by area, it seems)
In real life, bullet could have well just been shot through airframe, without causing anything than an annoying hole or cut through sensitive part of the structure and cause it to collapse.
Thats how legends borns.. they've managed to be lucky and have bullets strike in less serious manner, while others have blown up for single bullet, with plane type being irrelevant.
If P38 would get tougher in AH, then I suspect that P47 and Fw190 should get as well.
(from what I hear)
With that, we would just come up with most of the planes toughened up.
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I see a lot of planes falling apart in front of me at pretty close ranges. Not as many as some of the really good sticks, but enough.
Since Day 1 p38's have been a favorite target of mine. Especially so if they are co-alt or lower.
P38's consistantly seem to shed tail surfaces
quicker & with fewer hits than I would expect from another plane. Is this modeled correctly? Good question, ask pyro, he knows, we're guessing.
I'd have to estimate that 8 out of 10 P38's will lose tail surfaces with only 2 to 5 20mm hits. (ShVaks, ussually fired inside convergience at 200 to 300)
But thats all it is, an estimate, and one La-7 pilots opinion.
I just wish niki's lost tails so easy! :)
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fire some .50's at d800. same result as a 20mm at d100. ping.. CRACK.. adios tail/wing/engines (and/or all the above)
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Tac, email me. Lets do that damage test.
xBAT
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Originally posted by BenDover:
what i want to know is why it colided head on with a halifax bomber :p ;)
It occurred during climbout through a heavy overcast. Although specific information is not available as to what happened to the mauled Halifax, one did crash that day in the general area.
If you happen to have Bodie's P-38 book, a photo of the Lightning, still carrying the Halifax stabilizer can be found in it. As well as a photo of another P-38 that took down a power pole and returned with extraordinary damage.
For the record, the P-38 was just about the sturdiest airframe in existance during the war, fully able to survive sustained (several seconds) of 9 g loading, and peaks in excess of 11 g for short durations (milliseconds).
Another incident involved a P-38F that collided with a Bf-109 over North Africa. This 109 crashed into the port boom and elevator, severing the elevator from the boom, and bending the boom itself. The Messerschmitt lost a wing and crashed. Meanwhile, the Lightning returned safely.
(Note: If I recall correctly, this "P-38" was actually an F-5 photorecon bird returning from a mission when it ran into the climbing Halifax in the overcast)
My regards,
Widewing
[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: Widewing ]
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Imagine that!
5 20's removing the tail of a P38, I would expect NO LESS! The 38's tail (especially at the root of the booms) is:
#1 not big, i.e. not much of a cross section
#2 made of .050 aluminum, which will not withstand the effects and stay together under that firepower.
#3 not designed to be penetrated
These complaints are simply unfounded. There are stories of "rarities" surviving awe striking damage, but as said they are rarities. It is not the standard. Think of the countless aircraft that did not return instead. Think of Liberators taking a burst in the wing root, and the wing folding up and falling off. Or aircraft lost simply to a shell fragment puncturing a coolant line. That is reality.
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Go here http://www.geocities.com/spades53.geo/prodocs.htm (http://www.geocities.com/spades53.geo/prodocs.htm) for a report listing the effects of 20mm hits on a Ju88
The effect of 1 round hitting the base of the fin is described as
"Point of detonation: on port side of vertical member in fin. 16" above bottom of fin, 18" back from leading edge
Effect: blew a hole in the leading edge measuring about 18" vertically and extending back about 18" from the leading edge on both sides. Also distorted the fin, and lifted it's base about 9" from fuselage."
Fragmentation holes spread about 5 feet from the point of detonation.
If a P-38 kept it's tail after 2 or more of those in RL I'd be very suprised.
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"#1 not big, i.e. not much of a cross section"
yep, there lies the problem. how the FEK does it get hit 98% of times instead of something else?. I mean, wow, what a COINCIDENCE. specially on HO's.. quite prone to get that tail shot off in a HO. Or better yet, a slow plane making a snapshot hit on a REALLY high speed 38 at a hard angle... 1 ping on wing and you barely get pings on the big wing structure...but oh boy, that 2ft (or so) wide tail booms get all the hits.
Quite...interesting eh?
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I once saw a p38 that had gotten hit by a string of #500 bombs dropping from a b17 on a bombing mission and still escorted the buffs to target, and while over the target got hit by a 410mm mortar round in the canopy and still had no problem destroying the train the mortar was mounted on, even after that it destroyed 6 bf109gs by ramming them, and even after that it mowed down 3 SS grunt battalions with its single working prop using low level passes on the troops( the other engine was shot clean off by a v2 rocket earlier) and so that should be enough proof to perk that pathetic p38 in this game :)