Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: StSanta on September 26, 2000, 05:19:00 AM
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A bit back, there were cries of the A5 being über (which I agreed with, and consequently dinnae fly it) and of course the almightly F4U-C being über. After removing ground kills, it was shown that they were almost equivalently über for air to air combat. And the 190A5 was modified to better hit numbers, i.e more weight was added, cannon ammo reduced, fuel was removed, climb rate got worse and so forth, all as it should be.
For good measures, a new comparison between the A5 and F4U is needed. After all, fm was revised and A5 was porked a good deal to meet numbers more accurately.
Tour 8 stats (was entire tour 8 1.04? Cannot recall)
190A5 K/D: 1.2
F4U-C: 1.66
Let's modify it to remove kills of and death by vehicles:
190A5 kills: 2806 - (Ostwind)51 - (M3)3 - (M16)65 - (PNZ)17 = 2670
Deaths: 2342 -(Ostwind)248 - (M3)3 - (M16)35 - (PNZ)29 = 2027
New K/D: 1.31
F4U-C kills: 9789-(Ostwind)687-(M3)103-(M16)218-(PNZ)100 = 8681
Deaths: 5880-(OStwind)1426-(M3)18-(M16)89-(PNZ)9 = 4338
New K/D: 2.0
For the fun of it; let's bring the little brother of the F4U-C, the D.
F4U-D K/D: 1252/1967 = 0.64
Kills minus vehicles: 1252 - (Ostwind)30 - (M3)11 - (M16)12-(PNZ)14 = 1185
Deaths minus vehicles: 1967-(Ostwind)359 - (M3)9- (M16)22- (PNZ)36 = 1541
New K/D: 0.77.
Based on these numbers, I conclude that the A5 has been appropriatey porked and is flown much less by the average no skill dweeb, and that the F4U-C has benefitted from new FM changes, and with it, the A5 dweebs have suddenly realized that LW sucked and the allieds were cool.
Based on huge difference between -D and -C, I say that tsjhokk is liked and is effective more because of cannons than pilot skill.
There are much less effective planes than the A5 out there, but seemed prudent I'd compare with it since that was what we did last time.
So, eat your hearts out, tsjhokk dweebs (Verm not included (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)).
A5 has been de-dweebied (woohooo!) and F4U-C is, well, a fluff'ng tsjhokk. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Start the flames (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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One question... what is a "tsjhokk" (the literal meaning) and what language is it?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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"tsjhokk" is the way I pronounce "c-hog". I spit a lot when I do so, and it's meant to be used in a derogatory fashion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Ohhhwww Santa and his rich akzent (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'd say
Tze - Hoog
'f course i've got that ich Austrian Akzent (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Oh and btw i still think that all cannon armed planes suck .
Long live the mighty D
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StSanta;
The 1C had a K/D of around 2.0 before the A5 ever exsisted in AH.
Following your tweaked sense of logic, they need to improve the P-38, not the A5, to compete more evenly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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Gents,
It may be a small factor to some but there is a difference in FM's of the two A/C.
The C was a dedicated Air to Air machine and had limited ground attack ability based on design. It was lighter than the D which had a significant ground attack capabilty but also had more weight. This is modeled in AH. The two A/C have different FM's. The C can out turn the D by a pretty fair margin, and for folks who sometimes like to get dirty in furballs this makes a difference.
Am I dweeb? Lets see.
The LW boys have had the 109G-10 for a while now and it was the king of hill for a while but they seem to have given up on it since 1.04. However the G10 in AH has a max speed of 450MPH. This is clearly the same FM as a K model not a G. Why do they fly them if the FM is so clearly wrong? Are they dweebs as well? The C202 and C205 are the Italian representitives of the game. How many of those were produced? Does it exceed 200?
Since 200 is the magic number for dweebdom in AH surely they must have built millions of those little things right?
Here is another possible sign your a dweeb. When your field is Capped by the NME do you quick jump into a Buff, Spit or NIK2? Where is your allegiance to your reguler mount? To me that is dweebery. I fly my Hog, sometimes D but usually C weather the field is capped or I'm doing a Jabo run. Did Adolf Galland run to the end of feild and grab a NIK2 out of the reserve Japanese hanger when his field was attacked?
Also I do not understand why you keep calling the F4U-1C a late war plane? It was not. From 1943 to 1944 the F4U remained essentially the same. Water Injection being the only flight enhancing addition and that was in 1943. The only addition to the -1C was 4 cannon, hardly a late war uber plane. The late war varient of the F4U was the
F4U-4 which could out climb the G10, Spit, NIK2 and every other bird in AH as well as being faster. The FW-190D9 stats don't even come close. So if AH does go to a full late war plane set you will really have something to complain about.
Later
F4UDOA
PS. I think I have proof that Goodyear also produced a FG-1C. In what numbers I do not know. Will get back with more info.
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 09-26-2000).]
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Minotaur:
you read me wrong - I am not suggesting anyone "fix" the A5 - I am confident HTC hit the numbers pretty good on that one.
This little stats thingy was merely assembled to show that the dweeb a5 was fixed and is gone, and that the F4U is more deadly than ever.
To such a degree that one can argue that it's a candidate for the perk system (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
F4UDOA, you think the quite small difference in fm results in a K/D difference of that rate? I think postulating that is a bit wrong. The difference between them doesn't correspond to a whopping 1.33 K/D points. No way.
Not sure why you bring the G10 into this debate - logical fallacy of creating a strawman to knock down? 1.04 hasn't been too kind on the 109G10, or rather, the added difficulty of bleeding the opponent plane's e has made it less effective.
Nor am I complaining about the tsjhokk being in the game.
And no, I never do field defense in anything other than German aircraft. You'll never find me in an ackstarr either. But this really is another strawman.
Never said anything about the C being a late war plane in this post.
I doubt the monster F4U will be modelled as a regular plane in AH, so no worries there.
F4UDOA, this is not meant as a personal attack, but the statistics show a major difference here. They also show a migration of dweebs from A5 to tsjhokk. Additionally, it is quite clear that the difference in FM between C and D does not correspond to the difference in FM.
There are non dweeb tjhokk drivers out there, to be sure. But, by far, the F4U-C is used as a skill negator dweeb plane more than any other plane.
And one could argue, due to low numbers who actually saw air to air combat and very impressive stats, that it is a candidate for the perk system. If the Dora is a candidate, the tsjhokk is a certain (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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He does have one very good point.
The F4U-4 is to the F4U-1D, as the 190D9 is to the 190A8.
Both were the late war varient of their preferred aircraft that saw significant combat. And the F4U-4 was produced in large numbers too.
What bothers me is how people view certain aircraft to the point its hypocritical.
If your a fan of the P-51D, P-38L, Fw190D9, Me109G1-0 (or K4), Yak-9U, N1K2, Ki84, Spit XIV, or the La7, how can you be against either the F4U-4 or the P-47N ?
How does a F4U-4 or a P-47N differ from any of the others I mentioned, except for the fact that they may outperform your chosen bird.
But the first whisper of either of these aircraft, and people start to scream "PERK IT PERK IT!!!"
**Computer Voice: Rant Mode is now disable**
Have a nice day ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
The C202 and C205 are the Italian representitives of the game. How many of those were produced? Does it exceed 200?
Since 200 is the magic number for dweebdom in AH surely they must have built millions of those little things right?
You are right F4DOA, the 202 and the 205 are too uber, perk it, both !!
And the mighty and untouched Italian industry was producing the REAL uber cr-42 in billion of pieces, so the macchis are dweebish uber perk planes.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SrSanta;
We have been through this F4U-1C debate over and over and over and over and ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) over. This is nothing new.
Basically concerning the F4U-1C:
- Very tough airframe
- Fairly manuverable airframe
- Fairly good Hp-weight airframe
- Pretty fast airframe
- Moderately good E-retention airframe
- 4 x 20mm cannon that can smoke your bellybutton in a heart beat
Questions? Answers? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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WOWWW!!
Verm you were the only one to get my point.
Stsanta, no personel attack taken at all. However this is at least the 50th uber
F4U-1C thread I have seen. Way more than any other A/C bashing campain by at least triple.
There are attacks made on C Hog pilots daily on the message boards as well as the radio buffer. You even have your own term for them "Tsjhokk". I am mearly pointing out the hipocracy of trying to bash the big bird because it has an Uber K/D.
In short here is the deal. When I felt there was a problem with the F4U perfomance first I whined like a baby and was roundly flamed and laughed at for my feable argument. Then insted of continuing my sillyness I got educated by speaking to people who new the flight dynamics of the A/C like Wells, Funked and F.Dean(Auther of Americas Hundred Thousand) and others. Then I made a resonabale arguement that got the support of others because I could say 1+2=3. All I hear from the Hog bashers is that the A/C is too Uber. And I hear this in 10 different threads at once. It's all just wining until someone proves that the cannons are overmodeled or that NO A/C will be allowed into AH unless some number have been produced IE. that specific varient. The argument that it was a late war fighter is idiotic because it was the same exact A/C performance for almost two years since they added water injection. Simply comparing K/D to other A/C and saying that the FM is porked doesn't prove anything either. Should I also say that the F4U-1D is porked because it's K/D is so low? After all it was flight tested against a 190A-5 and was superior in many ways and also had an 11 to 1 K/D in the war. Stupid argument? Not as stupid as another C hog bashing thread.
StSanta this may sound like a flame but it is not. I am not even going to say that I disagree with you because ALL of the cannon birds in AH have a distinct advantage. Simple pointing out the one who benifits most is just silly. As far as the FM goes it was proven that the current FM is far more realitic than the old. Glide ratio's in 1.03 were a miserable 5 to 1 on A/C where they should have been 12 to 1. So clearly AH is now a more realistic simm. Just because the 109G-10 lost some of it's advantage does not make it wrong. It is still the fastest best climbing bird in the game while still being cannon armed. And as far as newbie planes. The Hog is still one of the hardest birds to fly for newbies who want to yank the stick around. The NIK2 is by far the flavor of the month.
Naso,
My point isn't to bash the 202 or 205. I am mearly asking what the production numbers are on those A/C. Do you know? And please be specific to the varient of the model.
Thanks
F4UDOA
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I believe the CHOG and DHOG FM's are ok as they are.
The high K/D ration of the CHOG is due in part because Torque flies it (lets give him 40% of the kill in the CHOG hehe) and because even the most untrained newbie, once he finds out how to take off in that Torque (force, not player) monster they can easily whack an experienced pilot off the sky in with the snapshot kill.
N1K and Chog are spray and pray birds. Ideal for newbies. A vet pilot will definetely fare better in them, and that is why we FEAR the N1K because they are mostly flown by people who KNOW how to ACM in that bird.
I'd say the CHOG has a 10% better performance than the DHOG.. but put 10 pilots of varying skill, from ACM-less to ACM-gods in a DHOG and you will see the ACM-less will fare horribly in it.. give them a CHOG and *poof*! Instant kill gallore!
That is why I believe most people here, myself included, think the CHOG is a very unbalancing plane. HTC may as well introduce the ME262.. it would be the same situation.. newbies racking up undeserved, unworked kills because they fly a plane that encourages point-and-shootalotandpray (ALLELUYAH!) instead of ACM.
Hell, I put my 12 year old cousin in a CHOG, he shot down 3 planes before he augered!. His only sim experience was a few fights in MS Combat Sim. What does that tell you?
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F4uDoa,
You know i like you alot, and please realize that the f4u is my favorite plane of the war (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But the argument i hear over and over is that the f4u-1d is "more suited to ground attack" why because it carries 4 more rockets? 4 more rocket hardpoints should weigh mabye 100 pounds. Surely the extra weight of the hispanos and 900+ rounds of ammo should mean that the plane should perform slightkly worse than the f4u-1d. I mean, do you really think 4 rocket hardpoints weigh that much?
I really don't consider myself to be loyal to any one particular aircraft type, check my stats if you don't believe me, I fly most nationalities and planes.
But I *do* have to say I think the f4u-1c isn't very fair as it is now, lest review the comparison to the Fw-190.
Speed
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The f4u-1c is faster than the FW-190 a5 at al altitudes
Climb Rate and acceleration
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Above 7k feet, the f4u-1c outclimbs and out accelerates the fw-190 a5. Below 7k, the 190 a5 outclimbs and out accelerates te f4u-1c
Dive
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The f4u-1c out dives the fw-190 a5
Durability
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The f4u-1c is more durable than the fw-190 a5
Armorment
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The f4u-1c has significantly more lethal cannon than the fw-190 a5, and carries significantly more payload for ground attack missions.
Manouverability
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The Fw-190 has a roll advantage below 300 knots (small but significant)
The F4u-1c significantly outturns the fw-190 a5
Visibility
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The F4u-1c has significantly better forward visibility than the fw-190 a5, and is able to make better snapshots with its significantly more lethal weapons.
I think that pretty much says it all? In short, I don't think that there is enough data on the f4u-1c to postulate that it should perform (ie fly) better than the f4u-1d. Additionally, I think if we took the arena's dedicated F4u pilots and put them in 190s, and took the arena's 190 pilots and put them in f4u's I *think* i know who the victor of this rumble would be. Again, I don't consider myself a 190 pilot anymore, i have flown the hog more this tour than the 190.
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From F4UDOA:
> The C202 and C205 are the Italian
> representitives of the game. How many of
> those were produced? Does it exceed 200?
> Since 200 is the magic number for dweebdom
> in AH surely they must have built millions
> of those little things right?
and
> My point isn't to bash the 202 or 205. I am
> mearly asking what the production numbers
> are on those A/C. Do you know? And please
> be specific to the varient of the model.
> Thanks
> F4UDOA
M.C.200 had aprox 1,200 units.
M.C.202 had 1,100+ built.
M.C.205 had aprox 290 new built, but M.C.202 airframes were re-built to M.C. 205 specs so the efective total is not known for sure.
Remember that the M.C.200 was a 1939/40 aircraft, the M.C.202 a 1941/2 aircraft and the M.C.205 a 1943 aircraft, all early to mid war.
For what an an Italian "late war" bird would look like, (though never in production) see the
Umbra M.B.902 (prototype destroyed in 1943, not flown):
Guns four 12.7 mm, two 20mm cannon in the nose.
Speed 429 mph at 19,680 feet
Celling 34,440 feet
Range 1,056 miles
Engines two contract built 1,475 hp DB 605's
Wing area 341.1 sq ft.
or the
Piaggio P.119 ( prototype flew 1942/3):
Guns four 12.7 mgs, one 20mm cannon in the nose.
Speed 400 mph at 22,300 feet
Celling 41,340 feet, 12 min 30 sec to 30,000ft.
Range 940 miles
Engine 1,700 hp Piaggio 18 cyl radial, mid-engine ala the P39.
Wing area 299.2 sq ft.
MC202
Dino in Reno
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I must again state that statistics don't tell the whole truth...
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Verm, I think you're missing what I am saying, or believe I am saying something that I am not.
Introduce the F4U-4. Knowing how many flies the F4U, what do you think will happen? Some people fly the plane that simply is easiest to get kills and survive in.
We'll find a steady stream of F4U-4's, and a declining number of other drivers. Even dedicated LW types will be tempted when they're shot down for the umpteenth time by a pilot they just a week earlier ate for breakfast.
Perk should not be based on when it was produced. It should not be based on numbers.
It should be based on how it influences game play. And we've both seen how popular nad effective the F4U-C is compared to its counterpart the F4U-D, or any other plane for that matter. The F4U-4 will be *significantly better*, further upsetting the balance, lessing diversity.
The Spit XIV might or might not do the same, but if the numbers I have are true, it is a very potent plane indeed.
The 190A5 upset the balance too, was fixed, and balance was restored.
The D9 will not, because it doesn't give LW that much of a different aircraft. It gives them (us) a plane that can fight at altitude, a plane that possibly can catch other B&Z'ers if they decide to run.
If it proves to upset balance, perk it immediately, and don't look back.
We could try that approach with the Spit XIV and F4U-4, but th oputcome can be extrapolated from previous experiences and comparisons between A5, F4U-C and F4U-D, and how people use them.
So, what I am saying is this: carefully think about what not perking very potent planes will do. The G10 isn't that potent in the MA in terms of raw killing power, stats show that. We can only speculate and extrapolate about the Spit XIV and F4U-4, but we can do it *well*. With regards to the D9, it doesn't add a plane that is significantly better than any other plane in the set; it gives LW some much needed capabilities, the same the US planeset already enjoy. D9 will still turn like a brick, roll a bit worse than the A8, suffer same "bar" cockpit problem, won't climb all too good and will do only one thing well; z&b.
Minotaur: F4U-D has all that, but the cannons. And that, I postulate, is 80% of the difference, and I am being very generous when I say the C has 20% performance advantage on the D.
Let me reiterate: I do *not* suggest there's something wrong with the current FM of the C or D hog. I am not whining about A5 being inferior to the C and D; it is. It was. As it should be. I ain't advocating upping A5 performance; I do quite well in it.
F4UDOA:
I admire your persistence in the F4U deal back then, you did an outstanding job, and had much of the community against you. And, quite frankly, I feel like I am in much the same position; being misinterpreted somewhat and having a legitimate point that some try to project as a whine. Therefore, i try to be concise and precise with what I say, but still, tangents arise and I try not to devote too much time on them.
This is NOT a "F4U-C is über" - thread - it ain't. This is a "let's revisit an old discussion, update it, and make some relevant observations" one. The huge difference between C and D stats cannot be attributed solely to FM; therefore I stated that much lies in the cannons. D has a negative K/D, pony with similar guns has a positive. C has an enormous positive one.
Once again, let me restate: I do not say that new FM is porked or wrong. I made a rather objective statement regarding my opinion on G10 lethality after 1.04. It's nothing more than that.
Please, I must ask you all *not* to read more into what I am saying than I say. There's no need to place words in my mouth if you will. I am one of those guys who don't gets hints, and is very frank and direct when I have something to say. It happens often that I am wrong, and I ain't afraid to admit it. So, with that said, I'll type just what I mean, and nothing more. If I wanted to say that the g10 is less effective and the new FM sucks, I would have put it in *that exact way*. I would not say "G10 is <subliminal message newfmisporked> less <hint hint hint> effective<fix fm fix fm fix fm>. Guess I am just a simple boring person in that respect, sorry about that.
Lastly, for a newbie t&b'er, the SPit, Zeke and N1K are the planes to fly. Keeping SA in t&b'ers is much more difficult than in z&b'ers, I think. For a newbie z&b'er, which requires more afterthought and patience, the F4U-C is *definitely* the plane to take. As stats seem to indicate.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Please read:
This (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001134.html)
And This (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002385.html)
Also This (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002335.html)
Of Ccourse This (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002713.html)
This (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002730.html)
Addtitionally This (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003705.html)
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now I did not post this up just to be a "hissy". You will find that the numbers and their K/D ratios have not changed a whole bunch. Statistically I bet HTC has all the tours, and they can compare them all at on glance. We can not do this, we must wade through each cycle of the data base. It is a pain, but to each their own.
Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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F4UDOA,
as MC202 said, the C.205 is an early 1943 fighter. Some 260 have been built and saw combat till the end of the war. Italy was and is a small power so plz take these numbers with a grain of salt. Do you wanna compare 200 F4U-1C with 200 C.205? Do small C.205 numbers mean dweeb plane? LOL, yes I think that the late-war-uber-fighter-syndrome is hitting badly here ... WW2OL where are you ??? LOL, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 09-26-2000).]
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You know what happens to me when I hear about C-hogs and their turbohispanos?
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/dvv/asthanos.gif)
GRRRRRR
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Zigrat,
I'm glad to hear your point of view on this subject because not only do I value your opinion but I think others do as well.
I'm also glad you like me but I am also overmodeled at this time. In 1.05 there will be a whole new me to kick around (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway the F4U-1D was a ground attack bird and I can not explain the weight difference between the two A/C. I can only say that it is clearly modeled in AH and it gives the C about 10% better turning capabilty. This alone is enough to make me fly the C hog.
Unfortunately I have never been able to get specifics out of Pyro or HT on the weight difference. Keep in mind it is not a speed difference so I don't believe drag is involved here. I would really like to what modeled weights are of these birds.
Comparison
Speed
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The f4u-1c is faster than the FW-190 a5 at al altitudes
I believe it should be. The speed charts seem pretty accurate to me in the AH help files and I have no reason to belive otherwise. Do you disagree?
Climb Rate and acceleration
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Above 7k feet, the f4u-1c outclimbs and out accelerates the fw-190 a5. Below 7k, the 190 a5 outclimbs and out accelerates te f4u-1c
I know the FW190A5 will outclimb the F4U at low alt in AH. In the help pages it shows the FW190 being superior. I can tell you that I can't climb a F4U above 3100FPM at any alt with out zoom climbing. Has the A5 gotten worse than that?
Dive
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The f4u-1c out dives the fw-190 a5
Ehhh, disagree. I have never even seen a 190 above 20K in AH so I can't comment on long dives but if you dive to sea level the F4U will catch up eventually because it is faster on the deck. I never follow 190 because it takes to long for the 190 to bleed off enough E to catch it.
Durability
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The f4u-1c is more durable than the fw-190 a5
Yes I believe it was. Because of shear mass it would have been. The P-47 would be the only bird tougher and that is subjective. I just read about a F4U fighting of Many NIK2 and landing with over 40 twenty mill holes in it. "Corsairs and Flattops" is the name of the book.
Armorment
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The f4u-1c has significantly more lethal cannon than the fw-190 a5, and carries significantly more payload for ground attack missions.
The F4U-1D had a max payload of 4,000lbs of bombs. This is not modeled in AH. I thought the FW190-A5 was a ground attack varient. I honestly don't know enough about it's capabilty to comment although I do have some reference material to dig up. No comment on the cannons, enough said about those.
Manouverability
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The Fw-190 has a roll advantage below 300 knots (small but significant)
The F4u-1c significantly outturns the fw-190 a5
Again I disagree on the roll. The 190 doesn't get outrolled in AH as far as I can tell. Turning radius the F4U should have a fairly significant advantage. However I was just smoked in an extented turn to the right were I was out turned by what I assume was an A5. I'm not wining but I think I should have been able to escape using tight turns with 20degrees flap.
Visibility
The F4U had better forward visibilty than the 190. The 190 only had 6" of clearance above the dash. The rearview of the F4U is the worst in AH and I believe way to obtrusive. I have seen F4U's up close and it wasn't that bad. In fact the F4U could have switched to a full bubble canopy and did not because the rear view was really never in question and was perferred by it's pilots for protection.
I think we are pretty close on our feelings toward the birds except that we will never know what the weights used for the F4U-1D and C are to calculate the performance differance. I feel that the two are comprable A/C in many ways. I think the better question is why is the F4U-1D not on a better par with FW-190A5. It leaves a far greater performance gap than the 190 vs F4U-1C.
Later
F4UDOA
MC202, thanks for the info. I thought the C205 was close to 200 in production numbers.
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StSanta,
I missed your last post before I replied to Zigrat. I now realize what the subject of your complaint is. That the F4U-1C upsets the balance of play in the arena. You may be right on this subject but I am surely the wrong person to reply. My K/D in the -1C is only a little better than 1 to 1. I have a hard time staying alive in an arena where peoples 12year old nephiews have 3 to 1 K/D's. I won't say that getting rid of the -1C is the answer because you can invalidate any number of A/C with different criteria. I can't say I can give you an answer for this at all. If the guns are turned down to accomadate players then it goes against the core of the game. Then we are one step closer to Fighter Ace. Fighter Ace has
P-40's and FW190D9 in the same arena. We could try a historical arena but the perceived problem wouldn't change since the cannons would prevail regardless of FM just as occurs in the MA now. So I will throw it back to you. What do you believe the solution to be?
Gatt,
I DO NOT want to say that the C205 should be banned or is uber but you must realize that the C205 is a contemporary of the F4U-1C. The F4U-1C is 1943 fighter plane. It has the same engine, Airframe etc. as the F4U-1A/D. The F4U-4 is the late war uber plane.
Later
F4UDOA
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My take on production numbers is who cares? hehee
Do you think that Spit driver cared how many were built when there was one on his tail? No, if you see one, you deal with it. You'll never see 200 of one plane in the arena anyway.
I would've thought that the F4u-1C would have been much heavier than the -1D, seeing as how it had more internal fuel (almost 750 lbs more)?
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Well, I would just like to see Pyro's data on why the f4u-1c is lighter than the 1d. Does the 1d have more armor? More fuel? More of what?
Oh and f4udoa, i totally believe the f4u should be more durable, and be faster than the 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But also the f4u-1d can quite handily kill 190s, and in teh new FM it too has excellent performance which i believe should be more typical of both hogs. And the 190 is out rolled by the p38 and the f4u i think above 350 kts. never did the measure but just testing, but at slow speed the 190 is definitely markedly superior.
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For me, the CHOG and the N1k, being so easy to fly and have so much hitting power is the reason why we see so many "quakers" and "arcaders" playing point and spray.
The K/D difference is NOT because of the FM, its the guns. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Zig: The P38 does roll very, very well at high speeds.. but outroll a 190? Ahhh.. no.
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 09-26-2000).]
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F4UDOA said:
> MC202, thanks for the info. I thought the
> C205 was close to 200 in production numbers.
And
> I DO NOT want to say that the C205 should be
> banned or is uber but you must realize that
> the C205 is a contemporary of the F4U-1C.
> The F4U-1C is 1943 fighter plane. It has the
> same engine, Airframe etc. as the F4U-1A/D.
> The F4U-4 is the late war uber plane.
> Later
> F4UDOA
Glad to help. Another fun Italian aircraft is the S.I.A. 403"DARDO" (Dart), a light wooden wonder with good speed (403mph at 23,620ft) for it's 750hp, and not too bad a gun set of two 12.7mgs and two 20mm cannon. Started out life as a 200hp trainer :-)
The RE2005 had small production numbers (30 or so) and came closer to "sorta-uber" in that it had three 20mm cannon and two 12.7 mgs, and high low alt speed, 421mph at 6,578ft in the prototype.
I would like to see early war birds, M.C200, Hawk 75, Spit I, Hurri I and II, Bf109E etc.
How do the M.C.205 and Hog do in relation (K/D) to each other?
MC202
Dino in Reno
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AHUM GENTLEMEN [bee looks around to see that everybody is hearing him... before starting his speech] LET ME SAY THIS ABOUT THE F4u-1C...MMMMMMM [bee runs away checking his stats] sigh... snif... I fly the N1K2... and have to fly the hog from Rippy... guess I'm a dweeb... snif... [bee walks away silently weeping...then turns back and looks at stsanta] AFTER ALL THOSE TIMES WINGING IN THE G10... now he calls me a dweeb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Bee
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F4U-4 whatever ? The one from 1945 ?
The answer is in 1 year older plane :
Me 262
Turning circle ? Who cares, as long as it is fast and has 4 30mm cannons.
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Hi
I might be one of the newbie chog dweebs. In tour 7 I mostly flew the G10 and continued doing so thru the first week or so of 8 and version 1.05. But flying a G10 is pretty much useless to your team these days as almost all you can do in one is scare the bad guy into an endless series of tight turns or split-S as their energy state will stay up regardless of what they do, at least long enough for his buddies to show up. I also like the chog for its ability to clean up an attacking force full of buffs, they have their turbolasers and why shouldnt I fite them on even terms? Plus the damn thing seems to turn pretty good with flaps and you can almost flip its nose around at very low speeds. It also has great handling in dive at high speeds. It also kicks butt in ground attack with 2 1k bombs mounted centrally for good aiming and Ostwind strafing. It just seems to be one of the best planes overall.
I like the plane but somehow it just seems too easy some times.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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LOl dweeb
I wuv you, would never call you a dweeb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You've been flying that N1K for a long time now, so no sudden "convert" like we saw in the A5 back in Tour 5 when it was the Dweebmobile. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<S!>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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F4UDOA,
sorry if my reply was sarcastic. Its not the kite (F4U-1, that is), it is her late war armament that make things funny.
<EDIT>: IMHO, you'd be VERY careful introducing such cannon monsters in the arena. In other words, even the 4x20mm (or 2x40mm) cannon Hurricane could badly modify the arena balance. In the real word 4 and 2 cannons Hurricanes were seldom used in dogfights. Here you can ...
But it is only my opinion, of course.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 09-27-2000).]
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F4UDOA, and ALL the "want this want that" whiners (like me too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)),
i am missing the point about the numbers.
If you want to point the numbers as absolute, then only US and Russian planes have to be modeled.
But IMHO, the numbers have to be seen in contest.
Regarding Mc.205V, we have a 200 plane version produced, over a total 200 MC.205, (V is the only version produced: V="Veltro").
The F4U-1C is a variant of the F4U-1, produced in some thousand of pieces (dont have numbers please understand concepts).
This mean
Mc.205 = 100% of total production.
F4U-1C = some smaller % of total production.
No comparison possible.
And i dont pointed the percentage vs total number of ANY plane produced by a nation's industry.
So dont talk by number produced out of contest, this seem a try to force the facts to have your favourite toy (seem, i said).
Others "whiners" use the representivity(sp?) of the plane, Me.262 is a good example, a mith, any simmer wish to fly at least once this ride in a simulate environment, even the USiron addicted ones, it represent the beginning of the jet era, was used in combat and etc. etc., but this cut be reconduced to a "i want my toy" whine type.
The "hard core whiners" use the operativity, meaning the possibility in a given environment to encounter such plane type in this case the toy is not the plane but the environment.
Now, since i think all of us want to reduce, if not to stop, this never ending threads about new planes, i throw a proposal to you all: why dont try to understand FIRST what kind of sim we wish to have?
We want a quakelike arena where our preferred toys/nations show their superiority?
We want a hard core arena where we can simulate at best the real life situation for a pilot in those times?
Well, IMHO the first type is already here, the second maybe will be introduced in future (RPS arena?)
With theese two points in mind, the following step is to try to agree about some simple protocol to find witch plane gently ask HTC to introduce (since they are so kind to sometime listen to us, WTG), where, and if it has to be perked or otherway limited and why.
At least we can start discussion speaking the same language.
Example?
Someone ask the F4U-4 using absolute numbers produced, others ask the me.262 using the represantivity, mismatch in language, or in unit of misure, neverending flamefest.
Here his my whine, ordered in type of whine:
Toy whine :
Me 163 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
P61 (?? the fork tail nightfighter)
AR-234
G.55
me-410
Ta.152H
Representative whine :
FW190D-9
Spit.XIV
B.25
Tempest V
Ki-84
Ki-61
Mosquito (lot of versions)
Do.217
Me.110 Destroyer version
me.262
He.176 (?? the wooden jet)
Hard-core whine:
Every single plane !!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Witch of those perk are thinks related to the intended gameplay and arena.
...
make sense all the above?
where i put my pills.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Naso
4° Stormo Caccia "F.Baracca" (http://digilander.iol.it/4Stormo)
L'è Buna!!
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Originally posted by Naso:
Toy whine :
AR-234
Representative whine :
He.176
Excuse me?...He176 represents what? wich plane is?...
maybe you talk about He162 Salamander. Still I dont see how a 162 can be representing, never saw combat...and Arado Ar234s saw a reasonable ammount of combat in last months of war...
So I'd put them each one in the spot of the other (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Same with Me163 Komet.
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Me 410 belongs to representative category, IMO.
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Yes RAM, you are correct He-162 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
Why representative?
Because is the first F-16 of history, the first attempt to have a top of the class jet, with the lowest cost possible. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The fact about if it saw combat or not, pertain to the hard-core list.
Why Me163 is in the toy list?
Because i want it, whaaaaaaaa (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
No other reasons than this : "I want it !!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ram, Hristo, write down your own lists, with your categorization.
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This cracks me up every time, first off, they FIXED the F4U-1C guns already, remember I was the one that complained they were too lethal, last nite I put 100 rounds into a B26, it did NOT go down...
Second, I believe that St.Santa has the option to fly the F4U-1C as well, and if you think its so uber, fly it for one tour, ONE TOUR, and report your K/D ratio here please. You have the ability to fight back against those F4U's by FLYING ONE YOURSELF YA AIRHEAD! LOL!
Agree, we need a historical arena, since the F4U-1C never met the 190-A5 in battle, if it had, the Germans just may have lost the war in '44. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Gents,
First Naso I don't understand your arguement saying that since there was only one varient of the C205 then since there was only 200 produced thats ok. And since the F4U-1C was a small representation of a 12,000 plane production but had the same number produced it is not ok? The most produced of the F4U series was the F4U-4(1,800 delivered before the wars end) but that would "upset the balance of play in the arena right? So basically I have to live with an early model F4U to make the LW pilots feel better? We have 4 different Me-109 including the G10(really a K-4) which is late war and uber being the fastest climbing and fastest straight ahead A/C in the game with a cannon. And by the way has almost exactly the performance in climb 4800FPM
and speed 451MPH at 26,000FT as the F4U-4. The difference being that the F4U-4 is best at 450MPH were the 109 is stuck in mud. Were there 1,800 Me109G10(K4) built during the war? Then why should the F4U-4 be perk only?
Point two. The cannon issue. Were cannons as superior to heavy machine in WW2 as they are in AH? If they are, and the FM is accurate then everybody needs to shut their trap. I fly the -1C regularly and I have a K/D of barely over 1 to 1. Am I that bad?? Would anyone of the pilots here like to fly for one week in the F4U-1C and see how well they do since everyone says how easy it is. When I see another F4U in the area(which is rare for me to fight another F4U) I think unless I screwup my SA then he won't get me. When I see a C205, Spit or NIK2 I know I have to watch my bellybutton and not slow down. I don't give the NIK2 any more respect than the C205 because he has cannons. When I see a Tiffy I race over so I can get the kill before anyone else see's him. I give Tiffy's as much respect as C-47's.
Solution. Give me an option to have 6 50cals for my C which would be a F4U-1A and I can have the better FM and 6 50cals. But I will not give up the FM of the 1C just to prove a point since the 1D turns so much slower(10%). I had two great fights last night both scissoring with Milenko(FW190A5) and Hblair(Me109G10) in which I was victorious(lucky). Neither of which would have been possible in the -1D.
Also we cannot get an Axis allies arena fast enough. I would luv to see Me262 and Me163 bases. The allied Squads would bomb the jet bases closest to battle lines and since neither jet had the range to fly one sector in AH they would never see combat. Then you really get wining to put the bases closer together.
Thanks
F4UDOA
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F4U is the best all round AC in AH right now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Big Blue rocks......ain't she purty!!!!
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HAH!
I'd rather be a Russian crack potato prostitute than being seen in an F4U-C.
I'd rather cover my noodle in blood and go swimming with piranhas than touching one.
I'd rather run towards Iranian fundamentalists creaming "UUUU ESS UUU ESS!" that experiencing the scent of an F4U-C.
I'd rather tie off my own intenstines to a tree and go improvised bungy jumping off a cliff than fly an F4U-C.
YUCK. Allierte schweinhunden. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Suggesting I should take one to fight one is like suggesting I should molest the child of a child molester to cure him.
It's big, ugly, and blue. Did I mention it was ugly, too?
That cockpit is way too big; I'd get lost.
The turbolasers would trick me into believing I was playing Wing Commander.
The turn rate would lead me to believe I accidentally have logged on to FA.
Heheheheh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) <bait placed>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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[Bee looks seriously at StSanta] AHUM... I'LL BITE!!
I'd rather be a Russian crack potato prostitute than being seen in an F4U-C.
Mmmmm crack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)... GIMME GIMME GIMME!!
I'd rather cover my noodle in blood and go swimming with piranhas than touching one.
You know I'm a scubadiver (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'd rather run towards Iranian fundamentalists creaming "UUUU ESS UUU ESS!" that experiencing the scent of an F4U-C.
[Bee gets a crazy fanatical look in his eyes while saliva is dripping out of his wide grinning mouth] ALAH AKBAR!! ALAH AKBAR!!
I'd rather tie off my own intenstines to a tree and go improvised bungy jumping off a cliff than fly an F4U-C.
[bee stands on the cliff] tump... WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE..... SNOK!! ouch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
YUCK. Allierte schweinhunden.
mmmmm didn't know they geneticaly engineered pigs and dogs into a mixed breed to resemble allies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Suggesting I should take one to fight one is like suggesting I should molest the child of a child molester to cure him.
I'm from Belgium... childmolesters are our N° 1 exportproduct (PS: °2 beer, 3° chocolats ) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
It's big, ugly, and blue. Did I mention it was ugly, too?
I'm big, ugly and if I hold my breath long enough mighty blue (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That cockpit is way too big; I'd get lost.
Experience has taught me that this is easily solved... just use a checklist before entering cockpit.
1) flashlight... CHECK!
2) foodsupply for 10 days... CHECK!
3) beer... and lots of it to calm your nerves... CHECK!
4) maps... CHECK!
5) 10 meters of rope... CHECK!
6) Let people know when you would normaly step out of the cockpit so they can call the emergency services if you are late.
The turbolasers would trick me into believing I was playing Wing Commander.
LUKE!! THIS IS REDLEADER... YOU'VE GOT TWO TIE-FIGHTERS ON YOU...OH MY GOD THEY ARE BLUE!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The turn rate would lead me to believe I accidentally have logged on to FA.
TURN??? YOU TURN??? No wonder you are whining about the G10 FM being messed up...YOU DON'T TURN YOU FLY STRAIGHT AHEAD, DON'T THINK, SHOOT WHEN SAID SO, BAIL WHEN SAID SO... CAUSE BUDDY THAT'S THE MARINE WAY!
Mmmm me thinks this settles it all... give in to the lure of the F4u-1C santa... just for once... we both know you'll love it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Bee
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 09-27-2000).]
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 09-27-2000).]
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Jeez,
I don't think I've ever seen anyone pirate there own thread before??
By the way, could you post a picture of yourself in that Russian crack potato outfit?
I feel so dirty
F4UDOA
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HU??? It's Santa's thread... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm BEE remember not Santa (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Bee walks away confused
PS: I'll see if I can find a pic of me wearing stockings, highheels, a bra with the russian flag on it... may take and it's gonna be mighty scary but hey you asked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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F4UDOA, the range of 262 is greater than range of G-10.
Now, since we have C version of Hog, we should have MK 103 + MG 151/20 version of 262.
A deal ?
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I am all for adding the f4u-1a to aces high.
Add it in, just change the paint scheme, should b ez right?
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weird everyone says the F4U (any of them) outturn the FW A5 .. and that it climbs better, and even accelerated better ..
*scratches head*
am I undermodelled that i can't get that to happen ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Gents,
First Naso I don't understand your arguement saying that since there was only one varient of the C205 then since there was only 200 produced thats ok. And since the F4U-1C was a small representation of a 12,000 plane production but had the same number produced it is not ok? The most produced of the F4U series was the F4U-4(1,800 delivered before the wars end) but that would "upset the balance of play in the arena right? So basically I have to live with an early model F4U to make the LW pilots feel better? We have 4 different Me-109 including the G10(really a K-4) which is late war and uber being the fastest climbing and fastest straight ahead A/C in the game with a cannon. And by the way has almost exactly the performance in climb 4800FPM
and speed 451MPH at 26,000FT as the F4U-4. The difference being that the F4U-4 is best at 450MPH were the 109 is stuck in mud. Were there 1,800 Me109G10(K4) built during the war? Then why should the F4U-4 be perk only?
Well i try to explain better,
Talking just about numbers will build an arena governed and dominated only by US planes, with results, you, USiron lovers, will fight only other US kites, loosing the pleasure to compete with LW or axis planes.
Just because US and SSSR buildt more planes than others.
Pointing at the fact "the F4U-1C was produced in the same number of the mc205" is pointless because the 200 mc205 produced are the TOTAL number of this kite produced, the 200 F4U-1C produced were PART of 12.000 total.
Go back in time and imagine you as a allied pilot over Italy, if you encounter a mc.205, you encounter a mc.205V.
As a Japaneese pilot if you encounter a corsair you have 1/60 of possibility to encounter a C model, more probably you will fight with a D model.
Better compare them as top on the line for their class.
Sorry if i am not enough clear but since English is'nt my language it's difficult to explain for me.
And, maybe is better to explain one fact:
I usually flight EVERY plane of the planeset, mc.202 and F4U-1C included, so i am not a LWlobbyst, but i wish to have an historical matchup, in a time-balanced arena (is my wish, only a wish, not an I quit issue (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
It's funny to imagine to be in Pyro's shoes for a moment:
When you think about a famous airplane to model, you think:
For Italy one of them cut be the mc.205
For US one of them cut be the "corsair"
Then you model both.
First problem:
The F4 had lot of variants, wich one i will model?
The more produced corsair (i think) might be the 1D model, and it participate to most of the actions in PAC, cut be a symbol of the "Corsairity".
Now let's choise a plane for germans, FW190 raise on mind.
Wich model?
well, a 190A5 is representative enough.
Now we go to examine playability:
MC.205 = in the main is for sure not uber, but since is the last Ita fighter produced in acceptable number and had seen action, nothing better i can introduce, may be in future i can think to introduce the G.55, to give the "Pasta boys" a toy to play in equal with others (hint hint (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
F4U-1D = Good playability in MA, with a dedicated pilot cut be one of the top fighters.
FW190A5 = Solved some problem with the FM, has become a medium fighter in MA, no need to integrate, the same of above as dedicated pilots.
Now people from my biggest customer base raise up asking me a variant of the F4 with 4 HS, well, no problem.
Introduced in the arena this kite have the magic to become uber, the good capability of the F4 to reach a firing solution, melted with an amaizing 1 shot 1 kill possibility (i think accurate too, since HS were the best cannons of 2ndWW), this plane cut be little unbalancing, but big part of pilots find a solution to defend from it and the former dweebmobile become only one of the "ubers".
Now the luftlobbie start asking somethink similar at wat was asked for corsair: a better version, the D9.
Nothing special, supposely, just more capable to fight at alt and speed, with numbers in percentage of total production, and realistically a lot used at the time.
And here the war started.
"If Luftlobbyes have the dora i want the f4u4 (whaaaa!!), he was buildt in 1.800 !!!, he went in action at least twice !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)."
Someone argued "but will be too uber."
"I dont care, i want it i WANT IT !!!"
WHAAAAAA !!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
"And i want the me.262, Whaaaa!!!!"
When you go to sleep you will have nightmares of an arena full of me-262 bouncing over a huge blue furball of F4U4, with only quakeheads playing and cussing, and you crying for the players of the hardcore type and of the representative type gone to play WW2online. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
LOL, definitely a dont wish to be in your shoes Pyro (S!), in this kindergarden.
Think, someone has been so childlish to ask for a Me-163, sheees (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
....
Hey, why are you all looking at me?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Seriously, i think the real uber at the moment is the NIKI.
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Naso
4° Stormo Caccia "F.Baracca" (http://digilander.iol.it/4Stormo)
L'è Buna!!
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Actually, I said.... waaaaa "I want the F4U-4 AND the P-47N" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If your going to quote my whine, please quote the full whine, not just part of the whine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) kidding of course.
Seriously, i think the real uber at the moment is the NIKI.
I definitely agree with this, this plane scares me MUCH more than a F4U-1C
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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True, but you know that a N1K will be flown and will ACM you. That is what makes it dangerous.
A CHOG on the other hand will almost always HO and play wing commander "point and spray" with you... unless its one of the FEW vet pilots that fly it regularly.
It scares the crap out of me to imagine when all those CHOG quakers migrate to the N1k.. brrr!
Italians should have the Fiat Cr. 42 in the planeset too.. it was one of the most widely produced fighters... even if it was a biplane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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You got the point Tac (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
so F4UDOA can raise his K/D ratio in Chog. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
p.s.
Sorry Vermillion, if i misquote you, but as i recall you said :"whaaaa !!! i want f4U4 and p47N, whaaaa" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You said "whaaa" twice, to be correct, and i take only the first (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Naso (edited 09-28-2000).]
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Agree with Niki being uber, My vote would be in this order:
Niki
G10
F4U-1C (ONLY because of awesome firepower)
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G10?
Seen its popularity and effectiveness?
Perk it if ya want, but statistically, it ain't an abomination. Performance wise, it's fast has accelreation and got good climb, but all other characteristics suck.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Wow,
I am really confused now.
Let's address these issues one at a time.
TAC said
A CHOG on the other hand will almost always HO and play wing commander "point and spray" with you... unless its one of the FEW vet pilots that fly it regularly.
Spray and pray? First due to a slower rate of fire spray and pray is definitly not the preferred method of firing especially in a snapshot or a tracking shot. Also Pyro has said he turned down the cannons to be historically accurate so the lazer cannon issue should be done. If LW cannons are not as effective then someone better wake up Herman Goering and tell him to fix it. I'll go get Chance Vought and tell him to make the F4U-1 climb better too. Like I said. It's a dead issue.
Naso said: Pointing at the fact "the F4U-1C was produced in the same number of the mc205" is pointless because the 200 mc205 produced are the TOTAL number of this kite produced, the 200 F4U-1C produced were PART of 12.000 total.
Go back in time and imagine you as a allied pilot over Italy, if you encounter a mc.205, you encounter a mc.205V.
As a Japaneese pilot if you encounter a corsair you have 1/60 of possibility to encounter a C model, more probably you will fight with a D model.
So using that same logic you are saying that we should limit the number of planes available based on there total production numbers? With that logic then it should be reasonable to say that since there were 12,000 F4U's built and only 200 C205 that for every 60 F4U's allowed in the game there should be 1 C205? And we could use the same math for the LW pilots since there was only a small percentage of G10 and K4 built compared to the rest of the production. I suppose they would fly BF109E's for 5 missions before getting a G10 or a K4?
You can't just apply that logic to American Iron you know. Remember the US produced 11 major fighter types during the war(not including varients) 9 of which had production numbers of 3,000 or higher. The Soviets I'm sure would be second in fighter types produced in that kind of quanity. Don't you think each country should be represented historically? This is the logic you are using to determine representation.
so F4UDOA can raise his K/D ratio in Chog.
My K/D is 1/1. Not very uber ehh. Would anyone like to try it and prove it's uberness by raising there own K/D?
StSanta said: Perk it if ya want, but statistically, it ain't an abomination. Performance wise, it's fast has accelreation and got good climb, but all other characteristics suck.
It has good speed and accelleration
and climb? It has the best. What could be other than that? Just because it can't turn like a NIK2 and dive like a Mustang doesn't mean it doesn't have the most significant FM advantages in the game. And besides I don't want to perk it. I just wonder why not have the F4U-4 and P-47N if your going to have a late war Uber 109? Neither one of those A/C could exceed the top speed or climb of the 109G10.
Hristo said:
F4UDOA, the range of 262 is greater than range of G-10.
Now, since we have C version of Hog, we should have MK 103 + MG 151/20 version of 262.
A deal ?
Deal, but the F4U-4. So what is the range of the 109G and the 262. I'm not so sure about that statement. Will look it up.
whoow,
F4UDOA
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 09-28-2000).]
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 09-28-2000).]
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 09-28-2000).]
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 09-28-2000).]
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F4UDOA,
No offense man, but Naso was talking about varients within type, not comparring all aircraft on equal footing.
He means that since HTC included the C.205 in AH, and AH allows you to fly whatever you want, if you encounter a C.205 it will be what an Allied pilot encountering a C.205 whould have encountered.
In the Japanese pilot example, he is saying that the sorry sot only had a 1/60 chance of the Corsair being a F4U-1C. It was already a given that it was a Corsair.
The error is that his formula would have a 109K pilot meeting a Spitfire having a 1/4 chance that it was a MkV, in reality it would almost certainly have been a MkIX, MkXIV or MkXVI.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by StSanta:
G10?
Seen its popularity and effectiveness?
Perk it if ya want, but statistically, it ain't an abomination. Performance wise, it's fast has accelreation and got good climb, but all other characteristics suck.
Don't forget its not only one of the fastest accelerating, but flat out the fastest next to the Pony...
Thank you, you just proved my point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...a famous WW2 ace said this, see if you can name him:
"Anytime you can engage, and disengage the enemy at will, 1/2 the battle has been won"
Another note, the G10 isn't used to strafe vehicles (which count as bomber kills in stats) nearly as much as the F4U-1C, so your stats are meaningless unless you subtract bomber kills from both planes.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-28-2000).]
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"If LW cannons are not as effective then someone better wake up Herman Goering and tell him to fix it. I'll go get Chance Vought and tell him to make the F4U-1 climb better too. Like I said. It's a dead issue."
I do not consider the 109g10 to be uber at all. Its a plane thats challenging to dogfight, but the 109g10 HAS to ACM you (or HO you) if he wants to shoot you down. Its really rare to see a snapshot kill in a g10... I have to see one yet. Probably this is because the great majority, if not all g10 drivers are ACM'rs and vets.
"Spray and pray? First due to a slower rate of fire spray and pray is definitly not the preferred method of firing especially in a snapshot or a tracking shot. Also Pyro has said he turned down the cannons to be historically accurate so the lazer cannon issue should be done."
Yes, not the "Preffered" method of firing. You think quakeChogr's care about "preffered". You are talking with a bias on your own way of flying, which is ACM as its meant to be. Give any Fighter Ace or any other arcadelosersim pilot a Chog and you will see him roll up the kills... low rate of fire and other fixes, THEY DONT KNOW ABOUT THEM.. THEY DONT CARE! All they know is they got THE guns and THE ammo and THE killing power to smack nearly anything in the game with a round or 2. THATS where the CHOG got its bad reputation, and thats why in my opinion its an unbalancing plane.
Thought experiment: Give the CHOG 8 (or hell, even 10) .50 cals and see what happens... keep the same performance as IF it had the 4 cannons (weight and drag wise). Would it still be so "dweeby" to fly? I believe it wouldnt.. although it has MASSIVE firepower (like the 4 hispanos), but it has no snapshot ability. REMINDER: Its a THOUGHT experiment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dump the icons and see how our gameplay benefiting C-Hog does:
- no more ID from miles away
- no more laser range finder to adjust gunnery
These two will reduce firing ranges to where all aircraft have same chance. And more historical, actualy. No more 700 yards kills on regulsr basis. It might prove why MG 151/20 was considered such an excellent weapon. This is one of the AH paradoxes - while in real life MG 151/20 was considered better than the Hispano, this is not the case in this sim. Icons are to blame.
- distinct shape and coloring will actually put C-Hog at disadvantage, it will be easily recognized from far away (like it should)
- poor 6 view to spot enemy sneaking behind
Icons are C-Hog's best friend. Losing them will most likely mean losing C-Hog unbalancing the Arena.
Just my thoughts.
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I luv Big Blue don't you Fishu!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
How come alot of Allied AC had no camo while most of or all the LW AC had camo?
Run and hide in terrian factor?
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Originally posted by Karnak:
F4UDOA,
No offense man, but Naso was talking about varients within type, not comparring all aircraft on equal footing.
He means that since HTC included the C.205 in AH, and AH allows you to fly whatever you want, if you encounter a C.205 it will be what an Allied pilot encountering a C.205 whould have encountered.
In the Japanese pilot example, he is saying that the sorry sot only had a 1/60 chance of the Corsair being a F4U-1C. It was already a given that it was a Corsair.
The error is that his formula would have a 109K pilot meeting a Spitfire having a 1/4 chance that it was a MkV, in reality it would almost certainly have been a MkIX, MkXIV or MkXVI.
Sisu
-Karnak
well karnak, you got the point perfectly, but regarding your last sentence, i was implicite about the time variable, of course we need to considerate the time we are immersed in (1944).
But seem F4UDOA is voluntarly ignoring the objection (whhaaa??).
No reason to speak to a wall. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
From Torque.
I luv Big Blue don't you Fishu!!!!
How come alot of Allied AC had no camo while most of or all the LW AC had camo?
Run and hide in terrian factor?
Yes, a wise pilot will never fight 1 vs 10. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
When life is the stuff involved.
Nobody touch your toy, man. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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How come alot of Allied AC had no camo while most of or all the LW AC had camo?
Run and hide in terrian factor?
Most P51D/B were painted in camo during the summer, and having the natural metal finish during winter.
F4U has camo, water camo.
Cuz we're smarter. ;p
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(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/Stab%20JG77.gif)
Stab/Jagdgeschwader 77
"Herzas"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 09-29-2000).]
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Naso u getting kinky on me? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
<cough> er 47 and 38, B-17, liberator, I've never seen a camo 51 escorting buffs.
Blue on Hawg wasn't for camo I think it's was some navy tradition.
You wish nath.
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 09-29-2000).]
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Originally posted by Torque:
Naso u getting kinky on me? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Ehmm, sorry i dont understand the meaning of "kinky", but if you feel offended i was joking (as the smileys show).
Maybe "Touchè" ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Just having fun Naso (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) <np>. I took no offense to your comment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 09-29-2000).]
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I know no one cares but check out tour 7 stats, I think its tour 7, for me. My hog stats are far superior to any other plane I flew. I generally fly B&Z. I would spray and pray like a mofo in the chog, would open up at 600 or so. Meat on the table. I flew the g10 also, didnt fire over 200. Big difference. Trying to help a squaddie bring up his k/d, told him dont fly real acm, its a game, fly like a game. I fly this one completely different then i did WB, completely. Check the stats for skyhawk, them guns be mini slammers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Naso,
I understand what you are trying to say. You apparently don't understand that you can't have thing's your way just to suit your needs without evaulating the entire planeset based on the same criteria.
1. You want to limit the planeset to 1944?
From the book
"America's One hundred Thousand".
"July 1944:Vought begins building 200 F4U-1C versions of the Corsair with four 20Mill. Cannons instead of the usual 6 machineguns."
One more
"The first cannon version appeared at the end of August 1944, and was an initial indication of the Navy's trend towards the 20Mill weapon."
So again Naso, I may be a wall, but in this case the writing is on the wall, read it!
The F4U-1C is a 1944 varient of the F4U-1A which is in fact a 1943 bird. Kapish?
2. You say
Pointing at the fact "the F4U-1C was produced in the same number of the mc205" is pointless because the 200 mc205 produced are the TOTAL number of this kite produced, the 200 F4U-1C produced were PART of 12.000 total.
Go back in time and imagine you as a allied pilot over Italy, if you encounter a mc.205, you encounter a mc.205V.
As a Japaneese pilot if you encounter a corsair you have 1/60 of possibility to encounter a C model, more probably you will fight with a D model.
Go back and imagine you are an allied fighter pilot over Europe or the Med. and chances are you would never see a C205 ehhh, at all.
Using your logic since 1 out of every 60 F4U's built was a -1C then it is not representive of the A/C. And I'm telling you that since there was only 200 C205 built that it was not a representation of WW2. There were more Brewster Buffalo's in service with the Finish than C205 in Italy.
So in fact the odds of an allied pilot running into a C205 at all were about the same as running into Amelia Airheart trying to cross the Atlantic. At least the F4U-1C saw heavy combat in the Okinawa campain for sure. How much fighting did the C205 see?
MAG-31(Marine air group not squadron) was equiped with F4U-1C during the Okinawa campain and scoring 71 kills during the campain and at least one ace.
If you only want to encouter A/C in
Aces High that were common then you should start off with the assumption that you will see Mostly American and Russian designs. Accompanied by SpitsIX, 109F and early G's and 190A's with very little representation from Italy. You cannot pick and choose which A/C you would like to fight against because you don't like the guns or the flag.
The real differance here is that you will not find that Hog drivers do not want to limit the plane set by perking everything that we cannot defeat easily. Where as some LW pilots want to perk everything that is difficult to kill or may kill you. And at the same time want every late war varient of there A/C readily available.
Naso looking at your scores it is obvious that you fly allot of Bomber missions or ground vehicles. This is probably why you don't like the C-Hog because it is used to kill Buff's and tanks more than any other A/C. If they did get rid of the C-Hog I bet your next post would be to ban the Tiffy.
Wait until they model the Sturmovik. Then you will really have something to complain about.
And I will just enjoy the variety.
Later
F4UDOA
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Vermillion:
P-47M not N (don't be a fool!) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Zigrat:
The 4 cannons and 900 20mm rounds weigh exactly as much 6 .50s and 3350 .50 rounds. The bomb pilons and rocket rails for ground add drag as well as weight, something that the P-47d-30 suffers from also. Additionally, 100 or 200 lbs (or more) of weight creep was pretty standard in a model advance as more armor or equipment was almost always added.
Hooligan
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F4UDOA, you dont kapisch (capisci), i fly the Chog too, i fly every F...ing plane in the planeset, and i have fun doing it (and being downed) !!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AND, i dont want the Chog banned, i never said that, i am just saying that talking about numbers taked out to other considerations is'nt reasonable IMHO, i repeat IMHO, so please, dont confuse me with the people asking others to adapt to theyr will, UNDERSTOOD ?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Reread all the post i have writed in this post, and try to read it without biasing.
I wil fly the spit XIV, the dora the F4U4 the me262, and any plane will go out from the pencil of HTC's staff, and regarding the perking question, my opinion is if you perk the dora, then you have to perk the HogC and the SpitXIV, i think they (in different manners) are equally "uber" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif), but, most important think, my will is HTC dont perk ANY plane (obviously because i will never reach enough perk points (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
Read my lips: "I dont want to take out your toy, if you want to use it, use it".
But please, leave the others ask for theyr toys, like you're asking for your.
I am just asking you and others to find a common land of discussion to finally stop to waste time, if this is impossible for you, ok, and bye bye (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Torque i understand you was joking, but, what the hell means "kinky"??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Naso (edited 10-02-2000).]
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Naso, "kinky" used in this way means something that is sexually outside the normal, in other words a strange or unusual sexual act.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Oh, i see, somethink like this?
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net/smileysex5.gif)
"Honey i'm home" !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hi Verm,
I somehow disagree with you. The debate about the C.205 and C-Hog numbers is, IMHO, wrong.
The question is: do we want fighters/bombers built in other nations than US-UK-D-J-R? I.E., do we want a/c built in small numbers but very interesting and useful to build historical scenarios? If you say yes to Italy, France, Rumania, Poland (what else?) ... then you cant compare figures the way you do.
I understand that Italian fighters dont fit well in this late war planeset. Actually allied pilots often encountered Macchi C.200s, C.202s and Reggiane 2001s over North Africa, Malta, Sicily and south of Italy, indeed. But this is another problem.
<S>
GATT
4° Stormo Caccia
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-02-2000).]