Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: RAM on September 23, 2000, 08:14:00 PM
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Well first of all this is no whining post, but neither it is a completelly well documented post, as I had no film on when it happened.
Tonight I have flown some time in a H2H with some spanish guys. I engaged a N1K2 with a 109G10 (50% fuel with some 10% already spent, no gondolas, 30mm cannon). The Niki started with advantage, but I dived and levelled several times until the speed was on my side. Co alt, I was a bit faster.
At 1.5K or so I felt quite safe to start a zoom away, I repeat, I was faster and co alt. I started a 45º zoom, starting from some 10K. The niki started closing, as expected. When he hit 1.0K I went pure vertical, planning the hammerhead. The niki pulled vertical after me.
While I was stalling, HE STILL WAS CLOSING. Before I could make the hammerhead he had wiped me out of the sky from less than 200 yards. The altitude was 17K.
Later the same story happened, with a different guy but ending at 10K.
So, a N1K2 can OUTCLIMB and OUTZOOM a 109G10?...
I'm missing something here?...
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-23-2000).]
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Yup........
Your missing the Sakia, 109s dont run on it..
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Your logic is entirely failed.
N1K2 never can outclimb 109G10 when both planes have almost equal energy , and strictly speaking , 109G10 cannot outclimb N1K2 easily in the method tested by you .
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"operationally the shiden kai was used mainly for home defense and proved itself to be a top class fighter. on one celebrated occasion, a single took on 12 US Navy hellcats, destroying 4 and driving the others away."
normal loaded n1k2 weight: 8818lbs max loaded 10,714lbs, empty: 5858 lbs
has 2000 hp engine
fowler flaps
laminar flow wings
4 20mm cannon (wich reportedly should hold more ammo... 900 rounds instead of 600)
keep in mind I am an impartial and open minded participant in this discussion. I fly all the planes in AH including the n1k2.
my view on the aircraft is that it is a rice burner on steroids with a big snarly engine with an airframe optimised for turning and burning. essentially this plane is the forthcoming hellcats worst nightmare.
if your in a plane slower than the n1k2 fight with your hair on fire and go for the throat if your faster b&z from above and stay honest: do not attempt following its wingtip turn radius even a little bit.
some stats on the AH n1k2 vs its U.S. pacific theatre would be adversaries (p38s never fought n1k2s though)
The N1K2 has 345 kills and has been killed 321 times against the P-51D. go back to the eto stang (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The N1K2 has 521 kills and has been killed 510 times against the Spitfire Mk IX. they both turn on a dime and dive/climb like bats out of hell
The N1K2 has 31 kills and has been killed 38 times against the P-47D-25. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) go D25!
The N1K2 has 212 kills and has been killed 152 times against the P-47D-30. average d30 dweeb has some trouble with the n1k2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The N1K2 has 208 kills and has been killed 113 times against the P-38L. stick a fork in the lightning its done (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The N1K2 has 344 kills and has been killed 571 times against the F4U-1C. the snapshot and top speed saves the f4u1c because all you will get on an n1k2 is a snapshot.
The N1K2 has 131 kills and has been killed 72 times against the F4U-1D. no snapshot = turning for trackingshot with george = dead corsair or hog that ran away with no kill.
as you can see this is not a plane to tangle with in a knife fight with anything less than a spit. even in an energy fight the clock is winding down in the n1k2s favor and if the attacker doesn't kill it they must flee once they loose their altitude advantage
heres me bragging-----------> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Citabria has 9 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the N1K2.
Citabria has 6 kills and has been killed 2 times in the P-38L against the N1K2
Citabria has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Spitfire Mk IX against the N1K2.
Citabria has 20 kills and has been killed 4 times in the N1K2.
Citabria has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times in the N1K2 against the F4U-1C.
oh let us not forget the 202 uberness benchmark... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Citabria has 2 kills and has been killed 1 time in the C.202 against the N1K2.
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Originally posted by Hanzo-:
and strictly speaking , 109G10 cannot outclimb N1K2 easily in the method tested by you .
Can you please tell me why?. Because I cant understand it. Charts for N1K2-J show a climbrate at 17K of something near 3000FPM.
109G10 has 4000fpm at that same altitude.
I know that chart shows SUSTAINED climbrates, still 109G10 is (Should be) the best zoom climber in AH, and still it is catched by a slightly lesser-E N1K2.
BTW N1K2 should be a decent zoomer, but by no means excell at it. It is a TnB plane with ability to do some good E-fighting given the chance...but it is no E-fighter. At least is this way as I saw it in previous versions.
I dont see your argument here, sorry.
Citabria: ok, Niki is an outstanding plane,one not to be taken lightly. Agree 100%. But a N1K2 outzooming a equal-E 109G10 (let alone a higher E) is downright ridiculous.
IMO.
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Pure energy conversion RAM.
Here's some examples:
300 mph plane can zoom about 3000'
250 mph plane can zoom about 2100'
Difference is less than 1000' (300yrdS), easily still within guns range. You need 100 mph difference in speed at least when co-alt, or else 3000' more (co-speed) in order for a pure hammerhead to work as you intended it to.
Charts for
N1K2-J show a climbrate at 17K of something near 3000FPM.
109G10 has 4000fpm at that same altitude.
This may be true, how long would it take to get a 3000' altitude advantage (1000yrds) to avoid guns? about 3 minutes, right? That's a LONG time.
[This message has been edited by wells (edited 09-23-2000).]
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OK wells, I understand that. But when a plane has a cushion of 1.5K and is, say, 10mph faster (I was gaining space on him!), When it also has a significantly better climbrate and acceleration, I cant believe that it can be caught that easily.In fact I cant believe that it can be caught AT ALL.
Also,keep in mind that we aren't talking about long range shots.
I repeat, by the point where I had to start the hammerhead, HE WAS STILL CLOSING quite fast. At 200yars he opened fire and blew me to little pieces...and he was still closing!.
So that plane closed 1.3K,following me up to the point when I was in the top of my hammerhead? starting from a slightly lesser E situation than mine?
I say that I am missing something here...
Zooming or not zooming, N1K2 shouldnt catch a Co-E G10 ,let alone a faster one. And less that easily.
how long would it take to get a 3000' altitude advantage (1000yrds) to avoid guns? about 3 minutes, right? That's a LONG time.
Starting from 0yards separation? right. Starting from 1.5K separation and 5-10mph speed difference on the G10 side?...
The N1K2 should fall out of the sky before the G10 rans out of E, wells. It is E-trading between speed and altitude and G10 should be the king in that kingdom...
I wont cry BS, but I want to know if this is right, and why, because I have the feeling that it is NOT right.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-23-2000).]
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Ive killed 8 109,s in a single sorti. And that was back in ver 1.03
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in 1.03 I used to kill loads of 109G10s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Why? they were handled stupidly, it was taken as the god's ride, the untouchable UFO. And In lower-E Fw190A5s and Me109G10s I had no problems in eating them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I was in a nik
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But the 109g10s kept on doing stupidities anyway (exception made of REAL G10 pilots, of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) ,regardless of the plane you were in (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Anyway I'm pretty sure that none of those kills that you did happened when you,in your N1K2, outzoomed a higher E climbing G10 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I am right, isnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]
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OK wells, I understand that. But when a plane has a cushion of 1.5K and is,
say, 10mph faster (I was gaining space on him!), When it also has a
significantly better climbrate and acceleration
10 mph won't help you in the vertical at any speed. It'll keep you out of harms way in the horizontal though. Even a brick can climb like a 109 in the vertical if you throw it at the same speed.
Anyway, the whole idea of doing a hammerhead is that the guy following you can't pull his nose up after you without stalling, which means you need an 'angle' advantage, not so much a speed advantage. You need to be directly above him and he has to be slow enough that he can't pull his nose vertical.
Will a 109g10 outclimb a George with stall horns blaring? That's the real issue here. What is the angle of climb in that case? If you have the advantage there, then zoom at that angle until you hear your stall horn. Watch the George...when he is no longer gaining distance, his speed is as low as yours and he cannot pull his nose up any more than you, then reverse on him.
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Originally posted by wells:
10 mph won't help you in the vertical at any speed. It'll keep you out of harms way in the horizontal though. Even a brick can climb like a 109 in the vertical if you throw it at the same speed.
How is that? more speed means more E, more E means that you can trade that speed for altitude. 10mph can be a little E difference, but it IS a difference.
Anyway, the whole idea of doing a hammerhead is that the guy following you can't pull his nose up after you without stalling, which means you need an 'angle' advantage, not so much a speed advantage. You need to be directly above him and he has to be slow enough that he can't pull his nose vertical.
Bassically I do hammerheads with the idea that the guy after me wont be able to climb as I did. So starting with a bit of E advantage and in a better climber aircraft I should be able to pull a vertical climb longer than the other plane, because my plane:
A) has more E to start with
B) has better ways to change Speed to Altitude (better climber and/or zoomer).
Will a 109g10 outclimb a George with stall horns blaring? That's the real issue here. What is the angle of climb in that case? If you have the advantage there, then zoom at that angle until you hear your stall horn. Watch the George...when he is no longer gaining distance, his speed is as low as yours and he cannot pull his nose up any more than you, then reverse on him.
Wells, this is not the case you describe. 109G10 is the best zoomer in aces high (or at least SHOULD be). I am describing a situation where a N1K2 with a bit less of Energy caught me in a perfectly executed zoom, ended in a vertical climb. I expected range to be closed (pitagoras told it a lot of time ago), and that is why I executed it in a 45º zoom first and then in vertical, so the N1K2 wont close by the short way.
In 1.03 I did this same move thousands of times, I have endless films on it done on Spitfires and N1K2s. New FM is said to enhance turnrates, but Pyro stated that it wont affect climb capabilities:
Originally posted by Pyro:
The biggest change will be a decrease in how fast planes lose speed in turns, but many other subtle changes have been made as well. There are no planned changes for basic aircraft performance such as top speed and rate of climb.
In other words, the very same tactic I used in 1.03 should work now. But it doesnt.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]
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If I told you how I did it. It wouldnt work anymore (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Lets just say g10 drivers tend to overestimate there climb speed.
I will say this for the 109. It is an ammo sponge. Dont get out the charts and graphs though. Im sure the damage model is right on. lol
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 09-24-2000).]
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How is that? more speed means more E, more E means that you can
trade that speed for altitude. 10mph can be a little E difference, but it
IS a difference.
Yep it is, unfortunately it's not enough to help you in a zoom
110 vs 100 mph = 70'
210 vs 200 mph = 137'
310 vs 300 mph = 203'
410 vs 400 mph = 270'
510 vs 500 mph = 337'
Climb ability is not the same as zoom ability. Sure, the superior acceleration of the 109 will allow it to gain an advantage, but that advantage is tiny in a zoom climb.
What did we say, 3 minutes in a sustained climb to gain a 3000' advantage? Guess how long it takes to do a zoom climb from 300 mph? About 14 seconds straight up, or 19 seconds at a 45. How much of an advantage can your superior acceleration give you in 14-19 seconds? About 200-300 feet worth, again, not enough to help you.
[This message has been edited by wells (edited 09-24-2000).]
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RAM, remember you blew some E to pull into the vertical (G's, and all that good stuff)
That alone could of been enough to kill your advantage if the N1K2 chose to pull a little more gradual while following you.
The N1K2 like most TnB's can turn quicker with less G's, so during the last pull into the pure vertical he would of most likely been able to pull on you with less E loss to G's allowing him to do follow, negating your superior climb with a zoom.
Of course that's on the basis that you pulled hard into pure vertical. Really don't matter on the first part because with a slight nose attitude change he can cut the time till his flight path intercepts yours with a small intial adjustment.
And it sounds like that's exactly what happened.
- Jig
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Simple reason: Me109's loses E like drunks while N1K2 retains E like a train.
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Well, I gotta second RAM's experience. I've met N1K's many times now, and several times I've been doing close to 350, met a N1K that did a 180 hard turn, zoomed with me, gained, an only by luck and sideslip have I managed to get away.
N1K might have had more speed after a dive, sure. But this is pretty consistant.
Also had situations where I've been faster than him (checked with the N1K pilot), he did 180 sharp turn, I did very gentle 45 degree pullup, increased to vertical, only to see N1K gain.
I was in the A5.
N1K has benefitted tremendously from 1.04. Maybe a bit too much, dunno.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Originally posted by Jigster:
RAM, remember you blew some E to pull into the vertical (G's, and all that good stuff)
That alone could of been enough to kill your advantage if the N1K2 chose to pull a little more gradual while following you.
The N1K2 like most TnB's can turn quicker with less G's, so during the last pull into the pure vertical he would of most likely been able to pull on you with less E loss to G's allowing him to do follow, negating your superior climb with a zoom.
Of course that's on the basis that you pulled hard into pure vertical. Really don't matter on the first part because with a slight nose attitude change he can cut the time till his flight path intercepts yours with a small intial adjustment.
And it sounds like that's exactly what happened.
- Jig
Humm,yes, that's why I pulled a low G move to an 45º attitude, and when I saw him following me, and judged the right moment, I pulled low G move again to get a vertical move. I always do it in 2 stages so the E loss and Pitagoras ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) don't kill me.
I understand that I can blew some E, I understand that I can give him a shorter way to come for me. But I cant stand that when my G10 starts to stall, the N1K2 has enough E to export, and while my G10 is halfway the hammerhead, the N1K2 still has an incredible closure rate.
I repeat I have done this a lot of times in 1.03 and previous, and I rarely was catched.
Now I AM catched...
I smell something weird here, sorry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
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Hi
I gotta agree with StSanta and RAM the N1K2s do some startling things in the vertical since 1.04. They seem to be able to climb vertical after your zoom climb and just at the top when my G10 is hanging on its prop they keep coming up, and instead of stalling and falling off they still have energy to level off and pull tight evasives to avoid the hammerhead. I have seen this plenty of times even after they maneuver hard to avoid you before. I know it was a great plane in RL but something just doesnt add up in its vertical performance after hard manouvering.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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X/ see my post in the gameplay forum...
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RAM, your also forgetting that he can "cut the angle" on you, so that he has a shorter distance to go.
This is because he is 1.5k behind you he can see your manuever as you start and point his nose towards where you are going, and not take the same path you did.
So your faster, but he went a shorter distance.
This graphic may be a little exaggerated but it illustrates the point very well.
(http://www.vermin.net/temp/zoom.gif)
So the reason, is the pure physics of Energy as Wells stated, plus simple geometry.
If an enemy already has your six (his nose to your tail), you should extend to at least 3k, and probably 4k distance, before you try a vertical reversal.
You have to have reached the apex of your hammerhead and get your nose around, before he can get within guns range. Or you will usually die as in this case.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 09-24-2000).]
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Hehe Verm, I know it. Its why I said that Pitagoras could kill me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I dont think this is the case, as he seemed to do a pure pursuit, not a lead one. So I dont think that he cut angles on me. Of course I can be wrong (Damnit, I wish I had film), but that is what seemed from my point of view.
Anyway, cutting angles or not, when I am at the apex of my climb, the N1K should at least be running out of E. But he was closing real fast.This guy was going to go HIGHER than me!...So, the N1K2 Zooms BETTER than a G10?...
as I said before, I was used to do this very same maneouver in 1.03, and had a lot of success doing it against nikis and Spitfires...but since 1.04 this maneover is suicidal.
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Originally posted by RAM:
<snip>
as I said before, I was used to do this very same maneouver in 1.03, and had a lot of success doing it against nikis and Spitfires...but since 1.04 this maneover is suicidal.
Get over it, this is not 103.
From what I have heard 109's were not that good at zoom, because they were a very light plane. Climb yes, zoom no. Heavy planes zoom better and the George has a 2000Hp radial engine. It has very good low altitude performance. You got beat on a zoom.
Next time use your E advantage and climb ability. Drag him into a tight spiral climb.
How much fun would the game be if your beloved LW rides did everything better?
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Who's next?"
Naso
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How much fun would the game be if your beloved LW rides did everything better?
I dont understand this statement. I think this thread hasn't had a single whine, still you have to do that comment.
Until now I understood that 109G10 should be the better zoomer in AH because it has the best powerloading hands down.
IT isnt that way?. Fine. Then I missed the point for 8 months whithout ever noticing it.
I dont say LW planes should do everything better. G10 is now next to useless unless the other guy is stupid, Fw190A5 has very weak topspeed and A8 still is a brick.
Is something to wonder about when the best LW plane right now is 109G2... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Of course, if it is as it was in RL, then its fine. I posted that a N1K2 outzoomed my G10, thinking it shouldnt be able to do it.
you say it was able to do it?. Fine.
Changing rides to N1K2.
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Let's wait till they find out N1K2 outzooming their P-51s and such.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ops.. I forgot that their fighters outzooms nicely too.
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Ram;
Very sorry, but your initial post did not seem whine, but a very valid concern. I thought is was very structured and up front. Your umpteenth post in this thread, however did seem whine.
Read This (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005416.html)
Also re-read, this thread for comments that Wells made here. IMO you spend move time typing than trying to understand.
Heavier Plane = Better Zoom
Higher E Retention Plane = Better Zoom
You got beat in a zoom! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ver 1.03 had tons of parasitic drag, this effected the N1K2 a whole lot. 1.04 is a whole new game.
BTW the N1K2 is no slouch on power, especially at low altitudes. I agree with you. You should learn to fly it, so that you know how to beat it.
Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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I dont think this is the case, as he seemed to do a pure pursuit, not a lead one. So I dont think that he cut angles on me. Of course I can be wrong (Damnit, I wish I had film), but that is what seemed from my point of view.
Verm is correct RAM and your view is probably biased.
Stop and ask yourself this. How many times as an enemy 1.5k in front of you gone verticle... only to have you fly straight and level until you reached the point he started his climb before you actually pull up?
The answer is never.
The persuer has the advantage if you decide to attempt verticle maneuvers. Especially at a 1k-2k range. You'd better have a TON of energy on someone before attempting this. "I was extending" isn't really enough.
He cut you off.. pure and simple.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Let's wait till they find out N1K2 outzooming their P-51s and such.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ops.. I forgot that their fighters outzooms nicely too.
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As always Fishu, you don't dissapoint. Your LW favortism is really commendable, I know that you love them. I think however, you will find that the George does just that of late. BTW, it also zoomed nicely prior to the new 1.04 FM.
1.04 sure upset alot of things. Planes that dominated before, no longer do so. The re-learning adjustment phase is still in progress.
Look at the popularity of the Yak these days.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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Originally posted by Minotaur:
Ram;
Very sorry, but your initial post did not seem whine, but a very valid concern. I thought is was very structured and up front. Your umpteenth post in this thread, however did seem whine.
Whine was my answer to your post. I am keeping (or trying to keep) a cool head while trying to understand why this move is not valid anymore. I dont think any of the previous posts are whining, but lack of understanding.
I started from the assumption that G10 is the best zoomer in AH. Obviously I was wrong, but didnt notice until latest posts. I read what wells said, I understood it, but still didnt know why a N1K2 could outzoom a better zooming plane with more E.
Turns out that G10 is not that good zoomer? Great. I was wrong, and it is okay. But I didnt notice it until you said that G10 shouldnt outzoom a N1K2.
BTW I didnt read thread that you linked. I missed it (I was out of town (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) and when I returned I only had time to check some (not all) threads.
Anyway I still think that your comment was a bit out of line. In no way I was whining, at least was not my intention. Simply I could not understand what was going on.
Said that, I still think that N1K2 has too much E retention...but well I have nothing but feeling to proof it so I'll shuddup...
for now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Stop and ask yourself this. How many times as an enemy 1.5k in front of you gone verticle... only to have you fly straight and level until you reached the point he started his climb before you actually pull up?
I have killed lots of planes that way, yes. But if the other guy starts a 45-50º zoom away and THEN after some time pulls a vertical move, believe me, I know I can be in deep toejam.
1.5K was a very little separation. I know it, It was a H2H and I wanted to do it a close call. In MA I'd have waited for 2-2.5K.
Still when I saw him climbing like a rocket towards me, I got the feeling that something was really weird there.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]
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I think I know the feeling your talking about ram. while pulling a rope a dope, in my nik. I have been suprise to see spits keep climbing after me. long after, I would have guessed they were out of power.
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RAM--
this has to be one of your plugs for LW aircraft. At D1.5 it would be suicide to go vertical behind an AC with a lower wing loading. Of coarse he pulled lead and of coarse he closed on you and shot you down. Why you went vertical with him that close?? You know better. You gave him a big pretty platform shot. You should have extended on out.
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I'm no expert in this department I fly most of the time by the seat of the pants (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) but I have to agree with mino and ammo on this one...
1) stallspeed of the N1K2 is lower then that of the G10 so it can keep it's nose up longer.
2) N1K2 is a terrific zoomer G10 is not (it's the best climber) Try this test in the TA... fly a G10 up to 400 mph and then cut engine... go in a gradual 2G climb till pure vertical... note how much alt you gain at point of stall... now try the same with the N1K2, P47, P51, F4... you'll notice a remarkable difference. Of course the difference isn't as great at 300 mph but it should still be significant.
3) I know you know this but I'm gonna say this anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)... The G10 is a very good climber... you should have gone in the 270 mph powerclimb (G10 still climbs at 3500 feet a min)... you would have left the N1K2 in the dust... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) IMO against TnB fighters don't go in a chandelle... cause most of them can still catch you early on because they can 'cut the corner...
Just my opinion
Bee
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another note....
at the very, very top of a zoom... the N1K2 can extend its butterfly flaps and lower its wingloading even lower than they normally are (compared to the 109) and help keep its nose pointed at you for those last couple of seconds before it stalls.... it maybe enough time to get off a shot on a higher foe that cant believe that the N1K hasn't flopped over yet...
-bigred
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I never follow a 109 zooming. In my opinion 109 is the most dangerous plane to follow in a zoom when u are in a N1k2.
Maybe the Vermillon graph is the explanation of the matter, as I get lot of kills in that way(reducing the angle with less speed lack), in 1.03 as in 1.04, but everytime I try to follow a 109 in a vertical zoom I die.
The biggest difference I noticed in 1.04 is that now u can make several consecutive loopings with the nik, cleaning your six in this way and sometimes getting your enemy six (I was alone against a p51 and a yak and shoot down both in this way).
And remember, the N1K2 was a great, dangerous plane; it only had several frequent engine problems.
Ciao.
Lucchini
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[Homermode]Mmmmm, automatic combat flaps with mercury activaion, ulhhhhhh[/Homermode]
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Just a reminder of one reason the N1K2 is so effective. In reality it had a lot of quality control issues, just as several other aircraft in out planeset did. In AH everything performs as it was intended to by its designers, i.e. no mechanical failures.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Imagine how crazy the shiden would be if it's automatic flaps were modeled .
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Suave1,
To the best of my knowlege, they are modeled. Remember, automatic combat flaps do not simply extend the normal flaps. they have special flaps that they use for combat manuevers, once again, to the best of my knowlege.
Sisu
-Karnak
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They are modeled in the FM, but not in the graphic.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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Ram, can you get a film of the engagements from the other guys?
Wouldn't that be the easiest way to see what actually DID happen and then investigate if it SHOULD happen?
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Sorry,toad, was a H2H, none of us had film on...
But I talked with the other guy (is spanish like me), and he confirmed that what I saw and what he saw were close things.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-25-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
Sorry,toad, was a H2H, none of us had film on...
But I talked with the other guy (is spanish like me), and he confirmed that what I saw and what he saw were close things.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-25-2000).]
BZZZZZZZT! No film, then its all strictly rhetoric. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Gotta agree with vermillion on this. His reply says exactly what I was going to say. I actually had considered making a graph exactly like the one he drew up. The Nikki took a shorter trip to the vertical than the G10 did. He cut the corner on you. Its such a small amount that you don't realize it. But it's enough to make the difference in this case.
When a plane is that close behind you his E state is right there with you. I fly the G10 just about all the time, and I am wary of nikkis for good reason. They are very dangerous aircraft especially when flown by the likes of people like easymo.
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Ram its called lag the plane you saw was probably closer then you thought and your computer painted it doing same move as you did. When he might have just pulled up keeping energy high andas you went straight up he went into wep and closed the distance. He may have had less fuel so plane climbs like bat out of hell. Remember its long ways to you and AH server and back. Im basicly right on top of it and I see some sign of lag in the transmission of data from others to me. Not a great explenation but probably the closes. Try 109e with 25% fuel and watch it climb. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Indians Home page were links to help pages can be found.
Indian's Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Some guys said heavier planes zoom better. This is imo not correct!
Throw a stone and a feather in a vacuum up with same speed at the beginning, they will both reach the same altitude.
We don´t fly in a vacuum, we fly in an atmosphere. That means DRAG occurs. And you plane can develop power via a propeller.
Imo Zoom performance depends on Power/drag, especially in a very steep zoom where lift doesn´t help much because the direction of lift isn´t any more "up".
109G10 should be the best.
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Ram,
Do it again with film on. Then a guy like Wells might be able to see what did happen and see if the FM's do need tweaking.
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Originally posted by niklas:
Some guys said heavier planes zoom better. This is imo not correct!
Throw a stone and a feather in a vacuum up with same speed at the beginning, they will both reach the same altitude.
We don´t fly in a vacuum, we fly in an atmosphere. That means DRAG occurs. And you plane can develop power via a propeller.
Imo Zoom performance depends on Power/drag, especially in a very steep zoom where lift doesn´t help much because the direction of lift isn´t any more "up".
109G10 should be the best.
I dunno, same intial speed?
The rock, at the same velocity, has a greater mass, and carries more momentum vertically, against gravity (but then again it has this same gravity working against it
There's a much greater difference between the mass of a feather and a rock then the difference between two fighter planes. There's really too many factors for simplification, but with simular power loading, and the same velocity in the vertical the heavier plane's momentum will carry it further (that is of course if the intial speed gets the better of the plane's power loading) The G10 lacks the sheer mass to keep itself over the required speed to continue vertically, having to rely on power alone.
Now let's do a comprehensive analysis on why rocks are better then feathers in the vertical (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
- Jig
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i really dont know or understand alot about climbrates and junk like that. all i know is i fly niki 90% of the time and i love catching 109s co-alt. if it isnt a really good pilot/ or one that knows how to rope really well, i win most of the time. not ALL the time by anymeans just alot of the times. that is why i ride a niki, its 1 of the planes i can kill 109s in usally. dont ask me why but if the fight gets low the 109 is mine for sure 1vs1 that is. thank you
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jcy19 | ||AirWolves| |
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Originally posted by Citabria:
>>SNIP<<"
Citabria has 9 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the N1K2.
Citabria has 6 kills and has been killed 2 times in the P-38L against the N1K2
Citabria has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Spitfire Mk IX against the N1K2.
>>snip<<
NUTTZ has 6 kills and has been killed 2 times in the Nik2 against 38L
NUTTZ has 10 kills and been killed 10 times in the Nik2 against F4-c
NUTTZ has 3 kills and has been killed 2 times in the Nik2 against f4-D
NUTTZ has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the Nik2 against 109G10
NUTTZ has 9 kills and has been killed 2 times in the Nik2 against MKiX
NUTTZ has 8 kills and has been killed 4 times in the Nik2 against p51
NUTTZ has 4 kills and has been killed 1 time in the Nik2 against A6M5b
NUTTZ has 10 kills and has been killed 2 times in the Nik2 against Nik2.
NUTTZ has 0 kills and has been killed 7 times in the Nik2 againt C-47,,LOL,, just kidding.
HEY Cit, wheres that TurdyEight of yours?
Maybe we can balance out our Nik2 Vs. 38 scores (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
NUTTZ
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that P-38 of mine is above 20k where it eats n1k2s for lunch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
but been flying the n1k2 a bit more against stratorooks and gangbangers with remarkable results.
Citabria has 63 kills and has been killed 8 times in the N1K2...
well not that remarkable but good for a rice burner (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Citabria has 61 kills and has been killed 15 times in the A6M5b
nothing scares me in this plane except maybe when i use it to bomb ostwinds (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 09-25-2000).]
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How to kill a g10
This one is so obvious Ill give it away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)An old trick from my ACA days.
Whn the 109 zooms. Follow him up, but off to the side. If he folds over to nail you your not under him. If he tries to turn to you, he is slipping and out of E. You on the other hand have used no e to turn around. And should have plenty for an easy rudder shot.
Sorry but im not giving away my best, kill the g10, moves (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RAM will not stop until he has created a thread like this for every plane in the game. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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perk the niki it's too good in everything
and from what i understand it purpose was too stop b-29's??
if the allies met this kind off plane they would certainly have too design a plane too beat it. I guess the impact off the niki wasn't that big as in aces high.
I think most planes in ah are pretty balanced but the niki is way too uber.
maybe we should all fly niki i will certainly when i againgotbeaten by them for the hundred time because they praying at 25k too.
what chance do i have than, my option is runaway and pray.
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BUG_EAF322,
Get a grip and read some books before you post nonsense.
You want to perk an aircraft that has a max level speed of less that 375mph?
N1K2 wallows like a dog at 25,000 feet. Its 80 octane fuel produces no power to speak of.
If you're at 15,000, well, thats different. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sounds to me like you need to change your tactics for dealing with N1K2s.
When our Hellcat pilots met the N1K for the first time, they reported it doing turns that looked impossible.
Then there's this:
Originally posted by Citabria:
"operationally the shiden kai was used mainly for home defense and proved itself to be a top class fighter. on one celebrated occasion, a single took on 12 US Navy hellcats, destroying 4 and driving the others away."
normal loaded n1k2 weight: 8818lbs max loaded 10,714lbs, empty: 5858 lbs
has 2000 hp engine
fowler flaps
laminar flow wings
4 20mm cannon (wich reportedly should hold more ammo... 900 rounds instead of 600)
keep in mind I am an impartial and open minded participant in this discussion. I fly all the planes in AH including the n1k2.
my view on the aircraft is that it is a rice burner on steroids with a big snarly engine with an airframe optimised for turning and burning. essentially this plane is the forthcoming hellcats worst nightmare.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 09-26-2000).]
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RAM admitted his own error anyway.
He said the guy was in pure pursuit, not lead or lag.
Guess what, pure pursuit would lead to almost exactly the same graph as the one Verm posted.
Problem solved.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
- Steve Earl
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1.04 was definately the N1k's best friend. I never feared and engagement with a N1k whilst flying my trusty P38 before this version. Those days are long gone, now I try not to engage them unless I have a good alt and speed advantage over them, and have learned the hard way NEVER to try to out turn them in the horizontal any more, even if the pilot is a newbie.
There numbers in the Arena have definatley increased since the latest patch....pretty obvious it is much improved with the latest changes. Whether it's right or wrong...I dunno.
What happened to the 205? Haven't seen much of that lately, just N1k's and Corsairs mostly (Knight's/time zone perspective mind you, I'm starting to think that is all Bishops and Rooks fly anymore hehe).
ts
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That's what i meant any beginner flying for the first time can kill me in a niki.
Oner day we will all fly niki because off that.
Is that what u want karnak ?
yeah i improved my tactic and it is runaway from them.
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The niki is a plane for score pilot's
but i like doing that the hard way so for me it's still the P38 untill i'm really forced too and over 50 % flying this niki
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Alot of wwII aircraft aficionados have admired the shiden long before there was Aces High. It was Japans spitfire in a way, protecting the Island and doing a good job at it against odds . The idea that it is flown only by gamers is very wrong . The other day while fighting a p51 on the deck I got jumped by a high n1k2. I shot down the p51, and defended myself from the n1k2. The p51 came back, but eventually spun in, came back again and ended up crashing into a mountain . The whole while I'm trying to stave off this highly aggressive and persistant n1k2. I only had about 150 rnds left in my lone 7mm and was near bingo, all I wanted to do was go home. This fight with the n1k2 went on for at least 15 minutes. I pinged him up a bit but no damage, had I had cannons I'm sure it would've been over. Finally, for reasons I don't know the shiden disengaged and gave me a big <S>. Bingo and nearly winchester I made for home. Later I found out that the shiden pilot was ranked #6 in AH. So please don't preach that the n1k2 is porked or uber or that any newbie can kill in it . Planes don't kill people, people kill people .
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So..?
A good pilot in it is worser
i can understand that. Placed 6? that is not impossible with the niki (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) .
When u fought in a P38 u would have not returned home that's for sure.
The niki gives u more chances too return home compared too other planes.
Yeah we all should fly it
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when shumacher get's a pickup to win the grand prix
he certainly got no chance to win the race.
i'ts not a pilot pilot thing only it is certainly a combination off both.
saying that i could kill a goon and be proud on it.
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1st of all i was called a dweeb in arena (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) howwwwwl. I used to fly it before and will know too ask Ts and Wolf who saw me fly it often. I used to fly it as defensive plane and still do. Ask Ts and wolf again they have seen me fly it lol (bribes ts n wolf). So please when u see me call me nik2 dweeb because i am one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Man i have been gangbang so much my head hurts again ask Ts n wolf. Anyhow, About bringing kills home in Nik2 i ditch as soon i ran out of gas or ammo or fight and laugh my donut off. I dont land my kills and unless base is 30 sec away from me. U always have uber plane. I hate f4uc guns but you dont see me making a post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Btw i fly other planes as well.
Bash Peace!
Meanwhile waiting for d9 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This what i did to 4 planes while flying a nik2 lol. I skin them like a chicken hehe.
(http://www.egroups.com/files/airwolves-ah/bashkills4.gif)
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BUG_EAF322,
The odds of seeing even 33% of the aircraft being flown in AH as N1K2s is less than me winning the lottery.
[sarcasm]Yes, it is a powerful plane. Lets perk it.
What other aircraft do you have trouble with? The Spitfire MkIX. Good perk it. P-51D? F4U-1C? Perk 'em. Any others? B-17G you say? Perk it.[/sarcasm]
Why don't you try learning how to deal with it.
Personally, I'm better in a Spitfire than I am in any other aircraft, but that doesn't mean that they have overmodeled the Spit or undermodeled the N1K2. Its just different.
If you have actual test numbers from an real test of a real N1K2-J that differ from the AH N1K2-J, then post them. Post your evidence.
If it just doesn't feel right to you, then take a ticket and get in line behand all of the other guys who feel that this kite or that kite "feels" wrong.
Sisu
-Karnak
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How can you say the n1k2 is more survivable than the p38 ? The p38 is considerably faster. It has great high altitude performance, opposed the n1k2 which is a hippo at high alt.
Life and death in the pork arena is really a darwinian matter. If you're getting killed by n1k2's in a p38 you're making bad decisions I think. You have the faster plane so you have the luxury of fighting on your terms . Regardless of plane type,the fundamentals of acm are universal .
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BUG_EAF322,
Right now you're arena dominating, everbody will fly it, N1K2 accounts for 1/13th of the kills in tour 8.
Here is a percentage breakdown of topline fighters (and Flakpanzer) and what percentage of the total kills each owns:
N1K2: 1/13th
P-51D: 1/13th
Bf109G-10: 1/20th
Spitfire MkIX: 1/10th
Ostwind: 1/7th
Yak-9U: 1/33rd
Fw190-A5: 1/26th
F4U-1C: 1/7th
I don't have time to detail all of them, but that is a sampling.
Looks like the Ostwind and F4U-1C are tied (F4U-1C is actually ahead by about 600 kills) with the Spitfire MkIX in 3rd and the P-51D in a statistical tie with the N1K2 (like the F4U-1C the P-51D is slightly ahead).
N1K2 seems good, and popular, but by no means occupying 50% of the missions flown.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Not yet 50% but it will
/ever tried too outrun a niki on the deck ?
in a p 38? i had to run for hours until i got a slight distance advantage.
So below 20K i cannot climb dive and turn with niki.
Those performance numbers from niki i'm not whining bout karnak
i don't have time too read books only to fly.
it's just a very very good plane .
a bit too good.
i really don't mind the rest off the plane set. Even not the hog c (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The niki just keeps me thinking.
And now don't tell me i fly stupid, because under 20 K there not alot off options.
And wich books are right??
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RAM,
I'm going to have to agree with Minotaur's original post. Also I really don't think the hammerhead is a good combat maneuver. I really don't recall seeing any gun camera footage of any airplane trying this.
You should have takin the N1K into a tight spiraling climb which has already been pointed out.
Also if the N1K was really 1.5k behind you how could you possible tell if he was in a lead or lag persuit. Man you must be running at 1600x1200!
I love the N1K and I have flown in it since the game was still free. Don't blame the N1K if you got beat at your own game. This isn't supposed to come across as rude.
I think you got gready or complacent doing the hammerhead and got burned. The old ways are sometimes the best (in other words simple beats fancy almost every time).
I can't help but think that if you had takin the N1K into a spiraling climb and then dove on him as he was in his floundering stall then this enjoyable thread would never have been started.
Spritle
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Oh yeah here is something that you might find interesting. It is an interview with Saburo Sakai.
http://www.danford.net/sakai.htm (http://www.danford.net/sakai.htm)
Look down a little under the subheading "On IJN Leadership".
By the way Mr. Sakai past away this past sunday.
(http://www.j-aircraft.com/jiml/Sakaimemorium.jpg)
Spritle <S>