Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: 321BAR on March 06, 2010, 09:47:30 AM
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Ok i know that alot of people are gonna shoot this down and say im a bad pilot or whatever *cough* not true *cough* :aok but i usually fly the a6m5b and i have BREWSTERS out climbing me, out turning me, and out gunning me... in real life wasnt the brewster a freaking rock with a propellor and 50cal mgs? why is my 20eny plane losing in one on ones vs 40 eny planes? ive used every maneuver a zeke can fly and i never win in a fight vs one... i say we need a fixxxxx :rolleyes:
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You haven't seen me fly that Brewster...easy kill for ya. :D
If you want frustration...how about having a Brewster out climb a 109G6 with E advantage?
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It's you.
I'd like to hear more of your real-life Brewster flying experience.
Technically, we don't have the Brewster.
wrongway
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Ok i know that alot of people are gonna shoot this down and say im a bad pilot or whatever *cough* not true *cough* :aok but i usually fly the a6m5b and i have BREWSTERS out climbing me, out turning me, and out gunning me... in real life wasnt the brewster a freaking rock with a propellor and 50cal mgs? why is my 20eny plane losing in one on ones vs 40 eny planes? ive used every maneuver a zeke can fly and i never win in a fight vs one... i say we need a fixxxxx :rolleyes:
BAR,
Keep in mind we don't HAVE the overweight and underpowered F2A-3 and B-339E. We have the stripped-down B-239 sent to the Finns that removed a LOT of the extra weight the Navy and British tossed on. The 239 and Dutch B-339 (NOTE: B-339, NOT B-339E) were much lighter, and performed much better. In fact the Dutch versions accounted for themselves VERY well against the Zero. They were just overwhelmed by sheer weight of numbers.
No, I WILL agree this means the 239 isn't exactly an appropriate substitute for the F2A-3 and 339E in PTO scenarios. I wouldn't mind seeing HTC go back and add the F2A-3 since it WOULD essentially be a different aircraft.
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alright haha i went through 5 sites to get info and you just answered my question. but yes. if we have the 239 at 40eny i think we need the crappy 339 and F2A-3 also because i dont like the idea that an outdated aircraft is decimating me in flight. especially when im in the zeke. htc bumped up the 190A models from 40eny so maybe they can do that also to the 239? or is it already? along with the fact that only a limited amount of 239 and 339s were manufactured. 70 were sent to the Dutch East Indies. ill learn to fly against them but if there were only 70-80 339 models in the east indies then why is the 239 even IN here? yes approx 60 239 were sent to finland too. but thats 130 brewster 239-339s counted. there werent much more in service. out of the VMF-221 at midway only 20 F2A-3 models were flown and were too heavy to fight zeros. the British Commonwealth took the 339E crap models that were even worse than that of the F2A-2s
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LOL!!! you don't like getting beat by a crappy 40 ENY plane !!!!
Here's a tip, learn to fly better ! Any plane can be beat, it's more the pilot than the plane.
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Yeah iwas going to say just keep at it and you'll start to figure out how to fight them best. Try taking 25% and DTs for example. I'd think a zero light on fuel would be very hard to out turn. :salute
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I used to think there was something wrong with the B 239 until I read Juutilainen's vivid descriptions of out turning I153's (BIPLANES) 10 feet off of the ground in the thing. It really must have been a fantastic aircraft.
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Generally speaking the A6M5b should be able to win against the Brew IMO. Granted it does whittle down to the pilot at times and with the right one in the seat they'll show you what's up. WMaker comes to mind, god his Brewster scares me. :noid
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i dont like the idea that an outdated aircraft is decimating me in flight.
This happens to me all the time. :( :( :(
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Dont see what the problem is - if you get into a bad sit, level out and run away, even a spit V can do that with ease. You can also take it into a circular climb if you have enough e, above 4k or so it gets considerably slower and cant stay with ya.
Wurzel
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Yeah iwas going to say just keep at it and you'll start to figure out how to fight them best. Try taking 25% and DTs for example. I'd think a zero light on fuel would be very hard to out turn. :salute
tried it
Generally speaking the A6M5b should be able to win against the Brew IMO. Granted it does whittle down to the pilot at times and with the right one in the seat they'll show you what's up. WMaker comes to mind, god his Brewster scares me. :noid
brewsters the only aircraft i have problems fighting... i even kill ponies now and then when they mess up (or if i got alt)
Dont see what the problem is - if you get into a bad sit, level out and run away, even a spit V can do that with ease. You can also take it into a circular climb if you have enough e, above 4k or so it gets considerably slower and cant stay with ya.
Wurzel
the zero cant out run a spit V or if it does its really close, and the brewster still keeps with me.........
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The A6M5b is actually a good 10-20mph faster than the B 239 at all altitudes, the Brewster just has superb E retention. You'll out run it in the long run, though.
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tried it brewsters the only aircraft i have problems fighting... i even kill ponies now and then when they mess up (or if i got alt)
See you're used to being the tightest turning ac. Don't turn fight the brew that is it's bread and butter. I think the A6M2 and hurri MkI are the only 2 fighters that can out turn it.
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ok thank you for the info guys. ill keep both points in mind.
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See you're used to being the tightest turning ac. Don't turn fight the brew that is it's bread and butter. I think the A6M2 and hurri MkI are the only 2 fighters that can out turn it.
What I was thinking, but like I said it comes down to the pilot a lot IMO since the turn radius of the two planes are still close enough for A6M5b to be able to win but I suppose this is true for anything in a sense.
Edit: Bar123 do you have the stall limiter off? Having that on although makes the A6M5b a much more stable ride in the turn till you get used to it also severally limits it in the turning ability.
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Found this. Excuse the language. But hey. Look who is talking! :rock
In October, 1977, I had the privilege and honor to have a few fairly lengthy conversations in a relativly private atmosphere with Greg Boyington. He seemed a hard, inwardly angry man. By this I mean, he never had it easy and this came through in his demeanor. His speech was rather gruff, he rarely spoke unless spoken to first and his answers to questions came quickly, brusquely and to the point. He had no qualms about his liking of alcohol, constantly nursing beers as we spoke. Coors, as I recall.
I remember asking him about the Brewster Buffalo (Then, Now and Always, my favorite aircraft). I had no sooner finished saying the word 'Buffalo', when he slammed his beer can down on the table, and practicaly snarled, "It was a DOG!" (His emphasis). Then he slowly leaned back in his chair and after a moment quietly said, "But the early models, before they weighed it all down with armorplate, radios and other toejam, they were pretty sweet little ships. Not real fast, but the little diddlys could turn and roll in a phonebooth. Oh yeah--sweet little ship; but some engineer went and diddlyed it up." With that he reached for his beer and was silent again. After that answer, I somehow had the feeling that I had just gotten a glimpse into Boyington's attitude towards life in general.
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Heh. Must have been something to sit down with Boyington.
I wish someone would adapt the biography Black Sheep One into a movie.
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What I was thinking, but like I said it comes down to the pilot a lot IMO since the turn radius of the two planes are still close enough for A6M5b to be able to win but I suppose this is true for anything in a sense.
Edit: Bar123 do you have the stall limiter off? Having that on although makes the A6M5b a much more stable ride in the turn till you get used to it also severally limits it in the turning ability.
rgr on the stall limiter. idk how to turn it off
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Dont see what the problem is - if you get into a bad sit, level out and run away, even a spit V can do that with ease.
doesn't work that well, any brew pilot worth his salt, can use the american made laser....err... 50 cals to hit you from 800+ out...
By the way, don't bullets tumble and go every which way once their speed falls bellow a certain threshold? :headscratch:
the problem is the laser like guns, which have bullets that remain in perfect spin allowing for completely unrealistic shots.
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doesn't work that well, any brew pilot worth his salt, can use the american made laser....err... 50 cals to hit you from 800+ out...
By the way, don't bullets tumble and go every which way once their speed falls bellow a certain threshold? :headscratch:
the problem is the laser like guns, which have bullets that remain in perfect spin allowing for completely unrealistic shots.
How far do you suppose that threshold is? Maybe 1000 yards or more? The ground based M2 .50 cal has an effective range of nearly 2000 yards. Could that be the threshold?
wrongway
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How far do you suppose that threshold is? Maybe 1000 yards or more? The ground based M2 .50 cal has an effective range of nearly 2000 yards. Could that be the threshold?
wrongway
50cal snipers are accurate to a mile and a half
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50cal snipers are accurate to a mile and a half
I find it hard to believe that an airplane that is vibrating (due to its engine, guns firing rapidly, etc..) in the air is anywhere near as stable as a sniper taking 1 shot from as stand-still position.
look at most WW2 gun cameras, the shots are taken close in.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=75277905547951258&ei=W1KVS6X9Oam-qQP64tmKAg&q=WWII+gun+cameras&hl=en&client=firefox-a#
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I find it hard to believe that an airplane that is vibrating (due to its engine, guns firing rapidly, etc..) in the air is anywhere near as stable as a sniper taking 1 shot from as stand-still position.
look at most WW2 gun cameras, the shots are taken close in.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=75277905547951258&ei=W1KVS6X9Oam-qQP64tmKAg&q=WWII+gun+cameras&hl=en&client=firefox-a#
That's not so much a factor of the accuracy of the weapon, but the difficulties of aerial gunnery in of itself.
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That's not so much a factor of the accuracy of the weapon, but the difficulties of aerial gunnery in of itself.
True, but makes it very hard to make long range shots. Whether it's the gun, the airplane vibrations, the wind, the g's the airplane is pulling, the angle that the guns are being fired at, I'm just speculating. The fundamental issue is that long range shots are too easy in our sterile AH world, and I'm sure there are many contributing factors that would make, making the long rang shots in RL next to impossible.
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doesn't work that well, any brew pilot worth his salt, can use the american made laser....err... 50 cals to hit you from 800+ out...
By the way, don't bullets tumble and go every which way once their speed falls bellow a certain threshold? :headscratch:
the problem is the laser like guns, which have bullets that remain in perfect spin allowing for completely unrealistic shots.
OMG! Fixer the laser gunnzz!!!
P51D, target at 800, convergence at maximum settings. One second burst from all guns in level flight.
I zoomed the target in to make the screenshot clearer. Go test it yourself. ".target 800"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/skuzzy/p51dtarget_d800.jpg)
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Some people are very good at hitting at convergence..... some people just have a hard time accepting this :D
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And others make claims about things, which are not true at all.
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True, but makes it very hard to make long range shots. Whether it's the gun, the airplane vibrations, the wind, the g's the airplane is pulling, the angle that the guns are being fired at, I'm just speculating. The fundamental issue is that long range shots are too easy in our sterile AH world, and I'm sure there are many contributing factors that would make, making the long rang shots in RL next to impossible.
I've noticed there is usually a 100-200yd disparity between front ends. If you see a con at 800yds he might be as close as 600yds on his end.
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True, but makes it very hard to make long range shots. Whether it's the gun, the airplane vibrations, the wind, the g's the airplane is pulling, the angle that the guns are being fired at, I'm just speculating. The fundamental issue is that long range shots are too easy in our sterile AH world, and I'm sure there are many contributing factors that would make, making the long rang shots in RL next to impossible.
Therein lies your problem.
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...but yes. if we have the 239 at 40eny i think we need the crappy 339 and F2A-3 also because i dont like the idea that an outdated aircraft is decimating me in flight...
It's not the aircraft, it's your poor flying.
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It's not the aircraft, it's your poor flying.
To be fair, the Brewster is one of those birds that tends to make a mediocre pilot better than he otherwise would be. She turns like a Zero, is nearly as tough as the F4F/FM-2, (which may be the most rugged fighter in the game) dives nearly as well as late-war American iron like the F4U, has almost 0 control issues at high speeds, and mounts a solid gun package. Her rate of climb is good for an early-war fighter, she accelerates rather well, and although her top speed isn't that great, the Spitfires aren't exactly hot rods compared to many of the more common rides in the Mains, either.
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is nearly as tough as the F4F/FM-2
Heh, not even close...
All in all, your whole assesment is rather hilarious. :)
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dives nearly as well as late-war American iron like the F4U
Not even remotely true. Dive acceleration is slow and it really loses E in prolonged dives, which is hardly surprising considering its light weight.
Her rate of climb is good for an early-war fighter, she accelerates rather well, and although her top speed isn't that great, the Spitfires aren't exactly hot rods compared to many of the more common rides in the Mains, either.
Considering the whole altitude span, it is the slowest fighter in the game. So yes, the top speed isn't that great. :P Talking about Spitfire's speed in the same sentence with the Brewster speed is funny too. :)
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Ok i know that alot of people are gonna shoot this down and say im a bad pilot or whatever *cough* not true *cough* :aok but i usually fly the a6m5b and i have BREWSTERS out climbing me, out turning me, and out gunning me... in real life wasnt the brewster a freaking rock with a propellor and 50cal mgs? why is my 20eny plane losing in one on ones vs 40 eny planes? ive used every maneuver a zeke can fly and i never win in a fight vs one... i say we need a fixxxxx :rolleyes:
You would really hate my 11000lb F4U-1 corsair turn fighting ur zeke then and killing ya.
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Not even remotely true. Dive acceleration is slow and it really loses E in prolonged dives, which is hardly surprising considering its light weight.
Considering the whole altitude span, it is the slowest fighter in the game. So yes, the top speed isn't that great. :P Talking about Spitfire's speed in the same sentence with the Brewster speed is funny too. :)
I'd be curious to actually test it's acceleration in level flight as well. A few months back I found myself in a bad position while flying the P-38J. I was right on the deck in a low speed circle with a brewster. He caught me low and slow and I had managed to stay out of his guns for awhile but sitting there looking across a horizontal circle at him with all my flaps hanging out I knew it was only a matter of time before I lost that fight. I rolled level in the direction of some help and pulled the flaps in and tried to get out of dodge, by the time the brewster finished the turn to get my six o'clock I was already out of effective gun range and easily pulled away from there.
Either the brewster doesn't accelerate that well from low speed, or the 38J does it better than I had previously thought.
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I'd be curious to actually test it's acceleration in level flight as well. A few months back I found myself in a bad position while flying the P-38J. I was right on the deck in a low speed circle with a brewster. He caught me low and slow and I had managed to stay out of his guns for awhile but sitting there looking across a horizontal circle at him with all my flaps hanging out I knew it was only a matter of time before I lost that fight. I rolled level in the direction of some help and pulled the flaps in and tried to get out of dodge, by the time the brewster finished the turn to get my six o'clock I was already out of effective gun range and easily pulled away from there.
Either the brewster doesn't accelerate that well from low speed, or the 38J does it better than I had previously thought.
Sounds about exactly like the experiences I've had while flying the Brewster. :)
Saying that it "acclerates rather well" (As Saxman put it) is quite far from the thruth. Its power loading simply doesn't allow very good acceleration compared to the most of the planes flown in the LWMA regularly. It really feels at times like it's very short on excess thrust in a close quarters maneuvering fight. Of course its quite low wing loading, high lift coefficient and good low speed control authority/roll rate still make it a very nasty opponent in that type of situation.
P-38 has one of the better power loadings of US fighters, it really isn't suprising that it leaves Brewster standing. :)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=18&p2=101&pw=2>ype=2)
Brewster is a delightfully maneuverable fighter and it's a lot of fun to fly but it certainly can't compete in "the raw performance-department".
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One other thing you need to remember when your talking about gunnery.
The Ace with the most kills was I believe Bong, in p38's He ended up with something like 26 if I remember correctly.
Anyone who tries, can get 26 kills in a week here. Multiply that times 52 and that times how many years they've been flying.
We rack up an incredible amount of "shooting" time compared to real life pilots. And as a result some get very very good at it.
I know I've killed planes with an iL2 out to 1.5k You'd never make that shot in real life. Heck you'd never take it, for fear you'd need those rounds before you could get back.
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why is my 20eny plane losing in one on ones vs 40 eny planes?
ENY speeking the real odd comparison IMO has always been the G14/K4 compaired to P47d25 and d40 <-- very odd indeed!
How the lufties can be same eny as the juggies is mind boggling!
Don't want to hijack, just saying
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To be fair, the Brewster is one of those birds that tends to make a mediocre pilot better than he otherwise would be. She turns like a Zero, is nearly as tough as the F4F/FM-2, (which may be the most rugged fighter in the game) dives nearly as well as late-war American iron like the F4U, has almost 0 control issues at high speeds, and mounts a solid gun package. Her rate of climb is good for an early-war fighter, she accelerates rather well, and although her top speed isn't that great, the Spitfires aren't exactly hot rods compared to many of the more common rides in the Mains, either.
Yep, +1
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Not even remotely true. Dive acceleration is slow and it really loses E in prolonged dives, which is hardly surprising considering its light weight.
Considering the whole altitude span, it is the slowest fighter in the game. So yes, the top speed isn't that great. :P Talking about Spitfire's speed in the same sentence with the Brewster speed is funny too. :)
in the first part, agreed, in my zeke i lose E terribly while diving obviously and i noticed the brewsters have the same problem but they still rape zeros... anyways i agree to me being wrong right when someone said it was the 239 and not the pig american and british versions... BUT
To be fair, the Brewster is one of those birds that tends to make a mediocre pilot better than he otherwise would be. She turns like a Zero, is nearly as tough as the F4F/FM-2, (which may be the most rugged fighter in the game) dives nearly as well as late-war American iron like the F4U, has almost 0 control issues at high speeds, and mounts a solid gun package. Her rate of climb is good for an early-war fighter, she accelerates rather well, and although her top speed isn't that great, the Spitfires aren't exactly hot rods compared to many of the more common rides in the Mains, either.
everything i bolded here is freaking true about the brew... the rest not really
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I definitely beg to differ on the durability statement. I've taken hits in the Brewster that would have easily put me out of a fight in the F4U (which is a tough bird to begin with) even if they weren't outright fatal. More than a couple times I've been caught in a multiples vs. me engagement on the deck where I'm getting hammered from all sides for a good minute before she finally loses something critical. My own experience vs. Brewsters is that it takes a good tracking shot even at convergence to put her down.
I've also had Brewsters hang with my F4U while I was in a full WEP dive.
And as for acceleration, perhaps I should have clarified that this is as far as early-war fighters go.
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Honestly I've never had any problem outrunning a Brew. in my Zeke, it's actually one of the few times I consider it in a Zeke and thats only if turning seems to be out of the question(rare). At about the 10,000ft mark where the A6M5b really shines as far as speed goes, it has a distinct advantage against the Brew.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=25&p2=101&pw=2>ype=0)
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LOL!!! you don't like getting beat by a crappy 40 ENY plane !!!!
Here's a tip, learn to fly better ! Any plane can be beat, it's more the pilot than the plane.
Thanks. See ENY again thread
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Unless the Brewster bounces the A6M5b, the A6M5b holds the cards. It is faster and climbs better than the Brewster. Use those strengths and don't rely on turning. Yes, I know that sounds backwards for the Zero, but that is how it is.
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Unless the Brewster bounces the A6M5b, the A6M5b holds the cards. It is faster and climbs better than the Brewster. Use those strengths and don't rely on turning. Yes, I know that sounds backwards for the Zero, but that is how it is.
you do know that most zeros end up on the deck if it cant get away, brewsters get the jump all the time in game. but ill take the advice. and in terms of climbing, ive vertical fought brewsters and its still hard to do...
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I definitely beg to differ on the durability statement. I've taken hits in the Brewster that would have easily put me out of a fight in the F4U (which is a tough bird to begin with) even if they weren't outright fatal. More than a couple times I've been caught in a multiples vs. me engagement on the deck where I'm getting hammered from all sides for a good minute before she finally loses something critical. My own experience vs. Brewsters is that it takes a good tracking shot even at convergence to put her down.
My subjective experience is that the wings are somewhat durable but the tail-plane is extremely fragile. The usual cause for getting shot down for me is losing either vertical or horisontal stab. I have film evidence where a single Shvak 20mm round to the tip of the vertical stab (to the point where rudder and stab meet) takes off the whole stab with the rudder from a fresh plane. I can be wrong but I recall never losing just the rudder. Same goes for the horisontal stab. A Single hispano round takes off the whole horisontal stab from a fresh plane. I don't know if it's linked to the damage a plane recieves from the gunfire, but Brewster tends to loose its tail when you hard breaking hard on a landing run and the tail hits the ground from level attitude. A bug similar to this was fixed from the il-2 some time ago. So the durability of the tailplane is clearly closer to the Spit-series than F4F/FM-2. All in all I truly have hard time seeing Brewster's durability being even close to the same class with the F4F/FM-2.
I've also had Brewsters hang with my F4U while I was in a full WEP dive.
We all know how these anecdotes can look on a film. :) Do you have one? :)
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My subjective experience is that the wings are somewhat durable but the tail-plane is extremely fragile. The usual cause for getting shot down for me is losing either vertical or horisontal stab. I have film evidence where a single Shvak 20mm round to the tip of the vertical stab (to the point where rudder and stab meet) takes off the whole stab with the rudder from a fresh plane. I can be wrong but I recall never losing just the rudder. Same goes for the horisontal stab. A Single hispano round takes off the whole horisontal stab from a fresh plane. I don't know if it's linked to the damage a plane recieves from the gunfire, but Brewster tends to loose its tail when you hard breaking hard on a landing run and the tail hits the ground from level attitude. A bug similar to this was fixed from the il-2 some time ago. So the durability of the tailplane is clearly closer to the Spit-series than F4F/FM-2. All in all I truly have hard time seeing Brewster's durability being even close to the same class with the F4F/FM-2.
As a point of order, almost every aircraft's weakest point is the vertical and horizontal stabilizers. The first dozen or so P-47Ms I shot down were all snapshots (of .50cal) that clipped their tailfeathers, and I may have lost more Hogs (arguably one of the toughest fighters in the game after the F4F and P-47) to stabilizer damage than any other factor except maybe that sneeze on it and it dies engine (I REALLY wish HTC will fix that. R-2800 was able to operate normally with whole cylinders blown off, but a couple .303s are enough to kill it in the game?!).
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As a point of order, almost every aircraft's weakest point is the vertical and horizontal stabilizers.
<sigh> Yes, of course they are...but in some planes they are weaker than in others...
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OMG! Fixer the laser gunnzz!!!
P51D, target at 800, convergence at maximum settings. One second burst from all guns in level flight.
I zoomed the target in to make the screenshot clearer. Go test it yourself. ".target 800"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/skuzzy/p51dtarget_d800.jpg)
Skuzzy,
just for you, here is a pic of using a Brewster... and the film
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/51/ahss5.png)
convergence was set to the max (600 I think)
and .target 800 was used.
wait just noticed that the target doesn't show in the film well here it is regardless
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ycutw2ztnfg/film10.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ycutw2ztnfg/film10.ahf)
close up of the target...
(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/9048/closeuph.png)
looks different than your P51 test. The dispersion doesn't look as great although I fired more ammo than u did so Its kinda hard to tell. I'll try again with a shorter burst.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/skuzzy/p51dtarget_d800.jpg)
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Bullet dispersion is different depending on where the guns are mounted. Wing mounted guns have a higher dispersion than fuselage mounted guns.
Bullet drop is a pure physics calculation.
Also keep in mind, convergence sets the guns in both the X and Y planes. If you set the convergence to 600, the guns are elevated to hit a target dead center at 600. Try moving the target to 300 with the convergence at 600 and watch.