Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: brady on March 26, 2001, 02:56:00 AM
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I never realy flew the C hog much untill a couple days ago and today I got around 100 kills in it, about 70% were GV's. the reasion I never flew it was I kinda felt it was to UBER, or dweby or what ever. The darn thing is a freaking menance. it is sturdy, relatively fast and packs a MASIVE punch, 1k snap shots man i was LOL all day long. spar and pry my a!!. No praying nessary just spay. get enough led in the air and u are bound to hit somthing and led it has and then some. whean I look at the Perk fighters we have and I look at the C hog it is almost enough to make me laugh the C hog is more deadly than either in my openion.
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6d60JNIFs2mHfM9ggHF4xY6Gy1uBBOIL0vAzWuZ4VQ!pBhaoFjvmZM4qCFICQ)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-26-2001).]
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perk the n1k2 and f4u1c!!
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I concur with Brady and Citabria. No sense having the Ta152 perked and these two flying steroid drawers unperked.
Cheers,
Pepe
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perk every plane!! especially the dweeb-mobile P38s and 190s!
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Perk This
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IMO, if something must be perked, this is my list:
1 - La7
2 - Nikki
3 - Spit IX
4 - HogC
Some of you will wonder why is the SpitIX listed here. Well, it is the best turner at any alt, keeps E as a devil, one of the best divers, one of the best, if not the best, zoom climber, rolls nice, one of the best substanied climbers and has hispanos. The only drawback is its slow max speed at level. So it cant flee, from more than one con, but can handle anyone in one-on-one.
About the Ta152, well, in the actual arena I see no reason to have it perked.
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Of course Mandoble and all other Luftwaffe pilots want the La7 perked.
Its the one thing that can catch the Hunstang (Dora) on the deck as it runs away.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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My list of perk planes:
190D9. Am sick and tired of Hunstangs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
109G10. Sick and tired of Run-Oh-Nines.
LA-7. Monster plane.
P51D and B. Am sick and tired of runstangs.
F4U-C. Don't need it unperked when we got the D.
Tempest. Performance says it all.
Typhoon. Sick and tired of running tiffies.
YAK - the fast one. It's as good as G10, perk it.
Ostwind. Need more m16's back.
Carriers. Or more precisely, their laser flak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Think that's about it.
This would make war more midwar oriented, and those who want to fly their fav ride would have to save up a bit. Make most of them *cheap* perks; expensive enough to hate losing, but not too expensive.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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Oh incidentally Verm, look at my post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
And I am as Luftwobbly as they get (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I posted it seconds after you posted yours, not seeing your reply.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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I wonder what type of uranium depleted ammo they're using in C hog...
Last time when I ran alot A/G flights, Typhoon couldn't achieve the same as Chog with the Hispanos for some reason.
Maybe game liked to be biased for me over several flights or then theres something funny in the statistics of guns for those two planes.
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LA-7 Only plane that will catch a D-9
N1K Come on now, was this plane really that good?
F4u4-1c I am a newbie and I have a 3+ ratio in this one, something aint right.
D-9 not to sure on this one, speed isn't everything
51-D aye she be fast, but can she take a hit?
Lancaster, perk it, or make it worth more to shoot down.
Macchi 202, come on now 50 value, give it a 75-100 bet ya see more people flying it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
TA-152 unperk it, plus I want to fly it cuz its a 152, just the name, dont care that it sucks just wanna fly it more often. I think if they gave us the 152 with 3 20mm it wouldn't be as deadly, and no one would be crying about 1 hit kills. Forgot model number so don't hold me to this one.
Ar-234, 70 points
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Check your stats, unless you are constantly running into Kbman in the MA I doubt any of you have been killed often by it.
The new planeset basically negates any reason to perk the chog.
SKurj
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Wrong, C hog I have been killed the most by in AC. I have also killed a ton of them as well, because of their high numbers. Perk it!
Here are my top 10 stats:
Model type Killed By Died In
Ostwind 47 11
F4U-1C 42 6
Fw 190D-9 33 44
N1K2 25 15
Panzer IV H 23 17
P-51D 22 22
B-17G 19 4
B-26B 17 18
La-7 15 6
Spitfire Mk IX 14 12
Model type Kills In Kills Of
Fw 190D-9 45 9
Ostwind 38 13
Bf 109F-4 33 2
P-51D 31 31
Bf 109G-10 23 11
F4U-1D 23 6
Spitfire Mk IX 19 18
Fw 190A-8 19 1
F4U-1C 19 33
M-16 14 9
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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IMO the ballance has shifted a bit to the good.
Model-Kills-Deaths-Kills / Deaths + 1
A6M5b 2098 3320 0.6317
Ar234 61 157 0.3861
B-17G 4255 4661 0.9127
B-26B 3414 4495 0.7593
Bf109F-4 724 979 0.7388
Bf109G-10 4660 4335 1.0747
Bf109G-2 966 1066 0.9053
Bf109G-6 1163 1369 0.8489
C-47A 97 1895 0.0512
C.202 243 542 0.4475
C.205 1244 1390 0.8943
Chute 856 0 856.0000
F4U-1C 15389 10609 1.4504
F4U-1D 3205 3878 0.8262
F6F-5 1033 1960 0.5268
Fw190A-5 2084 1691 1.2317
Fw190A-8 1463 1730 0.8452
Fw190D-9 7480 5583 1.3395
Fw190F-8 906 1172 0.7724
Gunner383 206 1.8502
Ju88 878 2336 0.3757
La-5FN 1196 1373 0.8705
La-7 7115 6626 1.0736
Lancaster III 2226 3713 0.5994
M-16 1639 2661 0.6157
M-3 1188 3008 0.3948
N1K2 9464 9196 1.0290
Ostwind 14933 9165 1.6292
P-38L 2898 4477 0.6472
P-47-D25 1102 1029 1.0699
P-47-D30 2318 2888 0.8024
P-51B 1998 2360 0.8463
P-51D 7166 7376 0.9714
Panzer IV H 11266 8558 1.3163
PT Boat 1342 2103 0.6378
SeaFire 1914 2842 0.6732
Ship Gunner 1584 3 396.0000
Spitfire Mk IX 10107 9768 1.0346
SpitV 3155 4442 0.7101
Ta 152H 647 416 1.5516
TBM-3 667 3052 0.2185
Tempest 1272 485 2.6173
Typhoon IB 5428 4588 1.1828
Yak-9T 3173 2862 1.1083
Yak-9U 1988 2023 0.9822
The Chog is still a pain on the prettythang, but much less than before. the Dora is the fourth most used plane closely followed by -in fact, almost tied with- the P51D and La7.
The SpitfireIX is a surprisingly used plane, confirming something I've always said: it is a superb arena plane lacking only in speed.
Personally I would think on giving a very low perk value (3-4 points) to the Chog and let the Nik unperked, based on the arena use of the planes. The N1K2 is the third more used plane, after the Spit and Chog.
That doesnt mean that I think the Hispano is right and that the N1K is not an ufo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), The Hispano is a gauss particle gun and the N1K2 would have been a nice addition to BattleStar Galactica TV series, back in the 80s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
But my complains about arena unballance now are much much lesser. And as I precognized the dora is not (by far) as much used as the Chog or NiK...and will be less and less used as the time passes by (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Of course, I also would support Santa's idea, but we all know what would happen in AH if the P51s get perked, so that wont happen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-26-2001).]
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BTW when the B17 has a better K/D than the Dhog, its time to think about tuning those lasers and making them something closer to "realistic" -as hard as it may sound (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)-.
IMO (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And by heaven's sake, perk the Ostwind. really, I mean it, perk the thing if the damage model has no solution. As it is, you can't kill that gun with anything but hispanos -even when even 7.92mm should rip that gun crew apart-.
Ostwind is a terror. Please fix its damage model or put it as a perk vehicle.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-26-2001).]
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My perk list in order of cost (highest to lowest)would be as follows:
N1K
LA-7
C-Hog
TA152 (Should not be 50 perkies, way overrated)
190 Dora
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-26-2001).]
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Perk everything after 1943.
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Out of curiosity, why do you add the Ta152 and 190D9, and let the 109G10, the P51D and B out of that list?.
My perk list would be:
Tempest: 70 points
Ta152H-1: 40 points
F4U1C: 4 points.
If we do the perk system so we can adapt the MA to a midwar scenario then:
Tempest: 80 poiints
ta152H-1: 50 points.
La7: 35 points
Fw190D9: 25 points
P51D: 25 points
N1K2: 25 points
F4U1-C: 25 points
P51B: 20 points
109G10: 20 points
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I agree with R4M. If you perk the La7, logic would dictate perking the F4U1C, P51D, 109G10, Fw190D9 and the N1k2. Thats not in any particular order btw.
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 03-26-2001).]
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Field Marshall von Rammel, your list is good. I don't like the values, but those are the right planes.
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IMO its good as it is now... Why perk anything else? People fly different planes now, I see way more Spit V and 202 with 205. Less 109's but a lot of N1K's with some ZEKEs also.
Now dont need to perk Osty - just take it out of the game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) hehe I hate those nasty Osty - specially when they hide in BH and kils ya right at spawn point on runway.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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I agree with Baron von Raminhof's list, albeit not on point values.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
PS PERK WHATEVER IS POPULAR! Top 5. muy ha ha.
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Gees guys your all perk mad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) , i like the perk idear but to go over the top about it would be frustrating, i dont want to log on and find half the aircraft perked, would really spoil the choices. Remember that not everyone, including myself has the time to spend hours in AH clocking up perk points, it takes me quite a while just to get 70, one kill in a perked plane and i have to start again.
Perk planes are a nice idear and adds greater variables to the sim, but lets not double back and perk what we have so far.
Some of us unfortunatly only have very little time to spend flying this sim due to work, collage etc, and it can take a long time to rack up the perk points, but my buck is as good as anyone elses and i would hate to see my choices droped considerably though perking the aircraft we already have.
Also i would still like to see new aircraft comming out that are not perked and not have every new release containing nothing but perked planes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Like I said, i actually like the idear of a few perked planes, gives you somthing to work for and adds a little variaty to the arena, but many times i see people flying the 152's or Tempest but they dont engauge dogfighting very often, instead they keep there distance and alt and will only decend if they are sure of an easy kill.
Whilst this is the whole idear about making the guys flying the SUPER planes think twice about attacking instead of being all gun ho, it would also make for a very boring arena if alot more planes were perked and everyone spend the entier time keeping their distance and waiting for the easy shot oppertunity.
Dogfighting and furballing at low alt would be rare, and alot of the fun would go and the only ones doing so would be the guys in the older aircraft or guys who have alot of time to spend on line that they rack up oints quickly.
Perked planes? great idear!!! it has my vote but lets not get silly about it. Remember everyones idear of what AH should be and how much time they can allocate to it is diffrent. If everything next release is perked it will be a bit of a bummer but thats change. Just dont change what people already have, its what made them join in the first place.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Peace
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I find it unfathomable why so many seem keen on perking the La-7 when it:
1) Isn't all that popular
2) Doesn't have a particularly good k/d ratio.
You HAVE to perk the Dora if you perk the La-7 and I doubt many of the people who want to perk the La-7 want that :-)
People seem to think that the debate should be based on their own personal opinions of stuff rather than hard, cold, arena numbers.
But HTC is going to make its perk decisions, as they've said, almost SOLELY on those. The additions of the new AC have reduced the CHog plague enough that I believe the CHog avoided the inevitable perking that was coming, but it's still the most popular AC and has the highest K/D of the popular unperked aircraft.
Personally, I'd:
Make the CHog a 5 point perk
Drop the Ta152 to a 25 point perk..and possibly lower in the future. I don't see much chance of it taking over the arena.
There's no particular good reason to perk anything else.
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Just to clarify, in my earlier post, I was employing reverse psychology (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). I don't want the La7 perked either.
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Alittle history on the C-Hog in Main, first month it was very popular, due to being a new plane. Then next tour seemed as though the numbers died off, but a few Aces continued flying it. Then the Whine threads began, popularity was fueled by the Whine Threads, and thus we have what we have today.
I expect the LA7 to follow the same path.
The N1K would have been the whine if the C-Hog had never come along.
Theres always going to be one A/C that stands above the rest, and there are always going to be those who whine about it.
BTW, I too whined about the Chog guns when it was first released, then they tweaked the guns to a more historical projectile, and I was happy with that. Some evidently were not! They also forget that the same guns are used in the Tiffy, Spit, P38L and..(I'm forgetting one..)
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Originally posted by Torgo:
You HAVE to perk the Dora if you perk the La-7 and I doubt many of the people who want to perk the La-7 want that :-)
I rate the La7 as a better plane than the D9, and with a distinctive advantage. is more agile, and outperforms the D9 on everything under 7K,and outturns it at any altitude . Just you have to learn how to bring the fite down.
So if you perk the La7 I dont see the reason why you are FORCED to perk the Dora. BUT, said that, I dont feel like the La is a perk plane. In fact I feel it the same way I felt the La5FN when I was riding my 190A5 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Ripsnort Chog only became a BS plane after 1.04FM change, I distinctily remember one Chog guy screaming on the first day of 1.04 something to the effect of this:
"OMG this thing can go vertical forever now!!"
And frankly its not just cuz of the complaing and that everyone goes to chog, if it was so bad a plane they all fly it a bit ten go back after they learn its poor MA plane. The fact is the Chog is the best plane plane in AH, it always has highest K/D and most kills. If all these idiots were just flyin it, wouldnt its K/D be low??
And dont any of say Fw190A5 has same K/D, yes it does but only gets 1/10 of the use and then almost only by dedicated LW expert types- It be almost no different than sayin p38 is best in AH by lookin at how citabria does in it.
Chog is best plane in AH no contest the tour numbers prove it!
And thats freaking pathetic for only 200 ever made, abslolutely minor variant of a really good plane. P A T H E T I C
Its no different level of BS than if we had Fw190 D11,12,13 dominating in MA- by chog standards these are just as significant variants of D-9 as chog is of dhog, and should be in MA unperked right? Somehow I dont think u chog whiners would agree.
Would all you chog whining cry-babies support the MA being full of Doras armed with 30mm cannons? Because we all know thats fine, only reason anyone wud fly one would be due to the complaints?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Ripsnort Chog only became a BS plane after 1.04FM change, I distinctily remember one Chog guy screaming on the first day of 1.04 something to the effect of this:
"OMG this thing can go vertical forever now!!"
And frankly its not just cuz of the complaing and that everyone goes to chog, if it was so bad a plane they all fly it a bit ten go back after they learn its poor MA plane. The fact is the Chog is the best plane plane in AH, it always has highest K/D and most kills. If all these idiots were just flyin it, wouldnt its K/D be low??
And dont any of say Fw190A5 has same K/D, yes it does but only gets 1/10 of the use and then almost only by dedicated LW expert types- It be almost no different than sayin p38 is best in AH by lookin at how citabria does in it.
Chog is best plane in AH no contest the tour numbers prove it!
And thats freaking pathetic for only 200 ever made, abslolutely minor variant of a really good plane. P A T H E T I C
Its no different level of BS than if we had Fw190 D11,12,13 dominating in MA- by chog standards these are just as significant variants of D-9 as chog is of dhog, and should be in MA unperked right? Somehow I dont think u chog whiners would agree.
Would all you chog whining cry-babies support the MA being full of Doras armed with 30mm cannons? Because we all know thats fine, only reason anyone wud fly one would be due to the complaints?
Ummmm...I am a little confused now.....who is doing the whining?
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Sling322
Not a Monitor!
Fat Drunk Bastards
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I really don't care what kind of plane the enemy is flying as long as I have a wingman, we will get him or make him run one or the other (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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GRUN,until you show numbers that otherwise prove that somethings porked with the FM, then it is simply that, a whine.
Many have showed numbers for other A/C and they have been corrected. Until you can, its a moot point. And, as usual, the best A/C and/or.. the most lethal guns, will always carry the weight of arena "Favorite". Like I said, if the C-Hog wasn't here, it'd be the 'next-in-line' whine. Human nature.
Edit, added AND/OR
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by R4M:
I rate the La7 as a better plane than the D9, and with a distinctive advantage. is more agile, and outperforms the D9 on everything under 7K,and outturns it at any altitude . Just you have to learn how to bring the fite down.
Arrggh. People consistently miss my point.
It doesn't matter how you "rate" the LA-7. It's utterly irrelevant to what should and shouldn't be perked.
And despite how YOU rate the La-7, the Dora has both more arena kills, and a MUCH higher kill/death ratio. And that's all that matters. And that's why you'd HAVE to perk the Dora if you perk the La-7.
There may be extraneous reasons why the Dora is doing better; better average pilot quality flying it than the La-7, etc. There will always be issues like that looking at any tour statistics. But the point is the La-7 isn't all THAT popular and isn't doing well K/D wise (personally, I think a lot of it is that people are under the mistaken impression that it's a great turner, and are turnfighting too much; it's an unusual combo...the low-alt shallow boom & zoom fighter. People keep getting waxed by Nikis and Spits and whatnot in it, I suspect).
I do recognize you're not in favor of perking either aircraft :-)
If the Mc202 suddenly, one tour, had half the kills in the arena and a 2:1 K/D ratio, I'd advocate perking the Mc202.
In these perk discussions, people are determined to get into esoteric discussions of their personal impressions of aircraft, and fine details of performance specs, but it all doesn't matter.
Well, it matters a little...when introducing new perk planes, for example. HTC had no arena stats to go on when they decided to perk the Tempest. But it was blatantly obvious from the performance specs and armament that if it was unperked you'd see little else in the arena, so it was perked going in.
ALL that matters are the stats from tours. Total Kills, Kill/Death ratio. That's ALL that HTC is going to look at in changing perk planes, or changing perk prices. And that's all we should look at.
Back when the CHOG was REALLY taking over the arena, and Pyro said it was in danger of being perked, it was simply a numbers issue.
All the people with their personal testimonials of "I took a C202 up last night, kille 5 CHogs in one sortie, it isn't that great and shouldn't be perked" were TOTALLY irrelevant. All that mattered was the obscenely high % of arena kills going to the CHog.
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
GRUN,until you show numbers that otherwise prove that somethings porked with the FM, then it is simply that, a whine.
Many have showed numbers for other A/C and they have been corrected.
Other than the pulse laser Hispano thingy, I could care less about the Chog...However, it was pointed out a few months ago that the Chog is missing about 300lbs in weight if I remember correctly. To my knowledge, that hasn't been corrected yet.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Alittle history on the C-Hog in Main, first month it was very popular, due to being a new plane. Then next tour seemed as though the numbers died off, but a few Aces continued flying it. Then the Whine threads began, popularity was fueled by the Whine Threads, and thus we have what we have today.
I think it's a VERY dubious proposition that the reason for Chog popularity is whine threads here or even whine threads on the open channel.
First of, the vast majority of AH players never even read the BBS.
And secondly, people aren't going to choose a plane, and KEEP choosing it, just because they hear people whining about how great it is. People are choosing the CHog because it's very easy for a poor pilot to rack up a ton of kills in it and they discover that by personal experience. If people were overrating it and it doesn't deserve to be whined about, but people still whined about it, people would quickly abandon it.
Again, it's striking how, tour after tour, it leads in total kills by an enormous margin (even subtracting out ground vehicles) AND leads in K/D ratio, despite the fact that undoubtedly a huge number of poor pilots are flying it.
I expect the LA7 to follow the same path.
The LA-7 doesn't have a prayer of ever getting close to the number of arena kills in a tour as the CHog. Or a K/D remotely close. It's even got the spike from being "new" this tour and isn't remotely close to the CHog.
Theres always going to be one A/C that stands above the rest, and there are always going to be those who whine about it.
As always, the issue is HOW MUCH above the rest. No one disputes there will always be one plane with the most arena kills or the highest K/D.
But at it's worst, the Chog was SO MUCH HIGHER than anything else it was making the arena an uninteresting place.
I expect the Chog, next tour, to be back to its height in taking over the arena, and for HTC to be very close to perking it again.
1) We're going back to the islands map
2) No new planes; this tour we had a ton of new aircraft. It's striking that even THIS tour, with such low CV usage, and so many new planes, that the CHog was still WELL above everything else in total arena kills.
What % of arena kills for one AC is acceptable for you, Rip? Would you unperk the Tempest? Would you defend it against people in favor of reperking it, even if it had 50% of the arena air-to-air kills, because "people will always whine about the best plane"?
They also forget that the same guns are used in the Tiffy, Spit, P38L and..(I'm forgetting one..)
Oh please; it's number of those guns and ammo capacity. Isn't that obvious?
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Originally posted by Raubvogel:
Other than the pulse laser Hispano thingy, I could care less about the Chog...However, it was pointed out a few months ago that the Chog is missing about 300lbs in weight if I remember correctly. To my knowledge, that hasn't been corrected yet.
Yes, but be careful what you wish for, its also not climbing as it should, see F4UDOA's thread on this FM subject.
Torgo, I have the same problem with the Chogs guns as I do the Tiffy, Spit or P38L, that is...if I'm in front of them, I die. THere within lies the problem. The Hog can be beat, however, in a MA mentality, any C-Hog can come diving in and smack ya with a few hits, just like the TIffy, SPit or any cannon-bound A/C...thats my point. Hog is easy to beat, whats not easy to beat is if you end up on the wrong end of it, and historically so.
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Rip for numbers chog is 600 lbs lighter than in real life, thats why it pulls BS climb manuvers that ive never seen a Dhog pull. In RL Chog was 300lbs heavier than Dhog. this is a significant FM error. In AH Chog is 300lbs lighter than Dhog(this is straight from Pyro BTW, Rip are u gonna say hes wrong on this) That means the AH chog is 600lbs TOO light. Is that not an inssignificant real number for you Rip?
More numbers, Chog has best K/D rate every tour and most kills by far.
From now on its obvious who the real whiners are they are chog dependant no-skill rutabagas that piss in their pants every time anyone critizes chog in fear they will lose their BS plane.
So shut up you whiners. Ur plane is BS
, and sooner or later its gonna get its due.
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As someone who doesn't fly the C hog (a bit, but well on the low end of sorties compared to other planes), comments like that compell me to support the plane.
If you're going to fly a "manly plane," please do us all a favor and toughen up and leave your skirt in the hangar.
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Funny how all the "real" men who fly "real" aircraft are always the ones on this BBS crying like a little girlie man. Another tissue? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
bowser
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Thanks for the tissue bowser, very soft (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
But im sure u guys would all be happy if my 109 was made 600lbs too light? Right?
Honestly tell me would you guys care to see that go uncorrected?
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As I fly the 109s a heck of a lot more than any US plane, I wouldn't be too upset. But there's a big difference between generally wanting accuracy in flight models, and calling everyone who flies the plane(s) you don't like a popsicle.
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Mebbe true Fatty, but every time somebody brings up chog inaccuracy even with actual documented evidence the same thing happens- they all start right up, name-calling, whiner this whiner that. As if they know deep down that chog is wrong and are afraid to see it fixed and, God no!, maybe try to kill in another less cheap plane.
Plus it really bothers me that a plane with only 200 units made- a painfully insignificant variant of a major and succesful fighter completly kills nearly all use of the Dhog, and completly dominates AH Ma in K/D rate and usage, plus its been known for 3months now that its 600lbs too light and hasnt been fixed.
It just seems to me that the chog crowd whine every time somebody chalenges it, its like they are afraid of loosing its inaccurate edge. They just wannna supress any dissent so they do the easiest thing, ridicule dissenters in hope that the humor of it all will bury the message.
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...Wait until I got my new plane (http://www.stormbirds.com/warbirds/variant/images/me262A-1aU4_photo1.jpg), Then we'll see who's whining (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Edit: Another nice pic here (http://www.stormbirds.com/warbirds/variant/images/me262A-1aU4_photo3.jpg).
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 03-27-2001).]
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262 will be 99% useless in AH, the only thing it was good at in RL was busting US bomber formations- Its high speed allowed it to diregard US escorts all 700+ of them and get at the bombers with 30mm and R4M.
In AH there are no escorts (not needed) since a single AH bomber can defend itself extremely well.
Who in their right mind would risk a certainly 100+ perk point 262 vs the "unique" gunnery system of AH bombers.
Remember max range of AH 30mm Mk108 is 300-400 yards.
As for its ability vs AH fighters, all youll have to do is stay awake and roll out of plane of its dives- if the 262 is an idiot and follows you hell loose speed and E very fast, and will not be able to accel and run away- at this point you reverse, shoot him and pat urself on the back. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So basically 262 wont be factor in AH, it has no purpose in our world.
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GRUNHERTZ, he will have two purposes :
1/ the fun factor, when I fly the Arado, I have this little ball in my stomach and all my senses are fully awake.
2/ it's so fast that if you can check your 6, find no "dots", type 2 lines of chat and get blasted by one of those puppy vulchers.
Anyway, I say "low perk" the F4C, LA7, D9, P47M... something like 10 perk points. Still very affordable, but u can't take it for each mission. Keep the 70pts for the monster freack show.
Why perk the LA7? Because it's a furballer dream, can outurn most of the plane set, can outrun anyone.... and I hate people who can outurn my P47 AND outrun my P47. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Heh Frenchy nice sneak of the P47M, "M"as in Monster (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Mebbe true Fatty, but every time somebody brings up chog inaccuracy even with actual documented evidence the same thing happens- they all start right up, name-calling, whiner this whiner that. As if they know deep down that chog is wrong and are afraid to see it fixed and, God no!, maybe try to kill in another less cheap plane.
I've seen plane inaccuracies discussed here rationally in the past, and there's no reason they can't be. However, these threads where the rational discussion takes place usually start out at the beginning with a rational, well thought out post. The ones that end in toejam usually start there.
Plus it really bothers me that a plane with only 200 units made- a painfully insignificant variant of a major and succesful fighter completly kills nearly all use of the Dhog, and completly dominates AH Ma in K/D rate and usage, plus its been known for 3months now that its 600lbs too light and hasnt been fixed.
Doesn't bother me how many were made in WWII, but you've certainly got a right to your opinion. My memory could be failing me here, but didn't Pyro say that the Chog weight problem was on the fix list in the same thread that he acknowledged the problem existed?
It just seems to me that the chog crowd whine every time somebody chalenges it, its like they are afraid of loosing its inaccurate edge. They just wannna supress any dissent so they do the easiest thing, ridicule dissenters in hope that the humor of it all will bury the message.
After hearing for the millionth time that the only reason you're able to kill anyone is because you fly a "DweebRide", you can become a little defensive. Just wait a little while...after you reach the 2-mil mark, you stop caring and it all becomes pretty funny again.
SOB
[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Frenchy said:
can outurn most of the plane set
That is total crap, and shows you haven't flown the La7.
The La7 has approximately the same sustained turn rates as the Yak-9U and the P-51D. Do either of those two planes outturn most of the rest of the planeset?
No, and neither does the La7.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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the la7 outturns most of the planeset, it outturns
all 109s
all 190s
p51d
p47
p38
typhoon
thats more than half
if the ta152 is perked because its uber at high alt, then the la7 is surely the low alt uber plane.
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I've been tracking fighter vs fighter kills daily this tour. I was very interested in seeing what affect the new planes would have on the arena.
Prior to 1.06, the CHog was pretty much dominating in usage and tied with the A5 in K/D. That immediately changed with the introduction of 1.06. The CHog K/D dropped nearly 20% and usage was well below that of the Dora and La-7.
The Dora led in K/D over the F4u-1C over that period... by quite a bit. The CHog is finally starting to catch back up as people return to their favorite rides.
The thing is, the K/D of the Dora has been going down as the casual fliers stop using it. Now its just the dedicated... and its not doing as well. So much for the uber LW pilots inflating the stats theory.
The Dora seems to have drawn many of the G10 pilots from the rankings, as its usage plummeted. The CHog and N1K2 pilots seem to be more likely to migrate to the La-7, though I get the feeling that the lack of 4 cannons may eventually drive a large portion of the pilots back to their original planes.
After going over stats, I started to think about when I would see the most Chogs... and when they would kill me the most. As a rule, it was either near their CV when they had a flak cover to keep me low and cons were everywhere, or it was when I was bounced. I just can't remember an instance where I met an F4u-1C h2h and lost. Not a single time. I have more problems killing A5s and P-47s 1:1 than I have killing the chog. I've also found most DHog pilots to be more challenging too.
The inclusion of ultra-lethal weapons like the hispano leads to bad habbits. The desire to just get a few rounds in the direction of the target makes most chog pilots easy to manipulate. I can't help but think "oh, goodie!" when I se an F4u pilot that would rather press a HO than jokey for position.
Right now, the CHog is not being used as much as the Spit IX. It does, however, have more kills. Over 35% of its kills are against ground vehicles or bombers. Vs fighters it is doing nothing overly dramatic.
I've noticed alot of F4u-1C base attacks. The ordinance load plus the destructive power of the cannons make it an ideal ground assault plane. A correctly planned assault by an experienced squad can result in some 40 vulch kills. The hangars only need to come down if suppression is incapable of keeping fighters/bombers from spawning. Many people are using this to inflat CHog numbers.
I do get a laugh out of one pilot in particular. He had 6 kills at a field that was heavily suppressed by some 6 planes. The only thing up was a VH and only 1 bish was spawning there.. but he was pretty drunk and not getting many kills. The pilot decided to land at an enemy base and exit. I shot him before he could. You should have heard the screaming.
AKDejaVu
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Still amazes me that people want to pick out one of the most non-descript and ordinary aircraft in the planeset in terms of kill stats...the La-7..and perk it.
I hear the response that people aren't "flying it correctly" and that's why it doesn't have that many kills and a relatively poor K/D.
Well, perk it WHEN and IF everyone learns to "fly it correctly" and it's wildly popular and getting most of the arena kills and an ungodly K/D. Don't perk it because it's deadly and unstoppable in the hands of someone who knows how to use it..that's true of almost EVERY arena plane.
Again, I fail to see why anecdotal opinions of a given aircraft are somehow seen as far more important than hard, cold, arena kill and K/D numbers.
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To answer the question posed by the thread title:
Simply because the HTC guys need a good laugh now and then to keep their positive outlook on life.
By not perking the -1C, they have guaranteed that they will have a continuing supply of threads like this to bring a smile to their face after a long day programming. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Plus it really bothers me that a plane with only 200 units made- a painfully insignificant variant of a major and succesful fighter..
From no less an authority than the FW Gawd-head himself, Ram:
"% of Chog production compared with the total F4U1 production run: 1.8% rougly.
% of D9 production compared with the total Fw190 run: 3.5%"
Almost identically "painfully insignificant" in the overall big picture.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Oops, sorry...how could I even begin to compare ~ 2% with ~ 4%? My mistake. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
One more chorus and then the bar closes, gents:
"Perk 'em all!
Perk 'em all!
The large and the fast and the small.
Perk all the Nikkis and C-Hogs in blue,
Perk anything that can shoot back at you!
`cause they're asking to just perk 'em all
As back to their Gruppen they crawl,
There'll be constant crying
as long as they're dying,
So cheer up, my lads,
Perk 'em all!
Nobody knows if the FM's are true,
So cheer up, my lads,
Perk 'em all!"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(With apologies to a great old song. )
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Toad
Fly what you like. Like what you fly. Don't worry about what the other guy flies. It's a game.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Originally posted by Toad:
From no less an authority than the FW Gawd-head himself, Ram:
Heya, MR. Class (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Maybe you should quote all that post (yes, including that I'm taking in account the 20000 figure for Fw190 production, wich is questioned by most, and that I'm including in the number the dedicated ground attack Fw190s, too. The final % of Dora production, according to the numbers most people say are right of the total 190 numbers (less than 17000) and that way more of 5000 of those were F and G versions; then the total production, I say, of the dora,would be some 7%.
Oh, BTW, F4U1-C force was way WAY less than 1% of the total # of allied fighter planes in service in the PACIFIC only. If we include Europe, even when by August 1945 war in Europe was over, the % is even lesser.
Would you like me to take a look at wich was the total percentage of Fw190D9s in the LW when the war finished in Europe?. Believe me, there were not many 190A1-A7s around for that time...Just some A8s and D9s. I would think that quite way more than 1%, right?
In short: the CHog was a plane that added almost nothing to the allied fighter force, nor in performance, nor in numbers. I call that a WORTHLESS, UNINPORTANT PLANE for the US war effort.
The Dora was a numerically significant, and distinctly brilliant plane, wich provided the LW with a very capable plane, distinctly better than any other fighter they had. I call that an IMPORTANT PLANE for the German war effort.
If you have a Chog, I dont see why dont we have a Fw190A8/R3 with MK103 guns.
BTW, mr Perfect, last time I checked, the Chog had 15500 kills on the MA and the D9 had 7400 or so. The Spitfire is more used on the MA than the Nik(by a hair), Dora, P51 and La7.
And now...your point is?.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Zigrat wrote:
the la7 outturns most of the planeset, it outturns all 109s, all 190s, P51d, p47, p38, typhoon, thats more than half
]
Prove it. Because I'm calling roadkill.
When I did the sustained turn tests for the Yak-9U due to the same type of preposterous claims, this wasn't true. And incidentally the La7 should be the same as for the Yak-9U within 0.5 seconds. And the Yak-9U and the P-51D were turning in similar times.
If your right and its turning faster, then its a bug that needs fixed. And I'll be the first and loudest voice claiming it needs to be fixed.
But I have a sneaky suspicion that your claim is your "impression" or "feeling" rather than anything based in fact.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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The reason a non-perk aircraft MAY get perked is not because of how good it is, but rather because it is distorting the perk system and significantly diminishing the variety of aircraft in the MA.
Because of this only famous aircraft, like the F4U, Mustang, Spitfire, Fw190 and B-29 or clearly superlative aircraft like the Tempest, Ar234, Meteor MkIII and Me262.
Because of this things like the La7 will never be perked but thinks like the Spitfire MkXIV will be even though they are evenly matched fighters, IMO.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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I personally would bet large amounts of money that an unperked Spit XIV reaches a higer % of total arena kills than the Chog ever did.
I don't think the LA-7 and the Spit XIV would be remotely close to each other in arena effectiveness.
BTW, isn't the Spit the uberplane of Air Warrior or something (haven't played AW since it was on GEnie in the early 90s.) Possible explanation for the spike in Spit IX kills this tour..all the AW types coming in new.
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BTW, isn't the Spit the uberplane of Air Warrior or something (haven't played AW since it was on GEnie in the early 90s.) Possible explanation for the spike in Spit IX kills this tour..all the AW types coming in new.
I think you must be right with this. I used to be able to pick an AW transplant out of the crowd because he'd say "There is no way that plane could turn with a Spit IX!"
Still cracks me up thinking about it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKDejaVu
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Btw, the LA-7 and the Spit IX have killed each other EXACTLY the same number of times this tour.
This is the same Spit IX constantly bemoaned as a helpless 1942 AC by the RAF-wobbles :-)
Somehow I doubt the Spit XIV would be an even match for the La-7.
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Torgo,
Dang it, we're RAFanatics!!!!
Don't confuse us with the Luftwabbles.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The Spitfire F.MkIX that we have has only one advantage over the La7, turning. If they have killed each other evenly it is only due to people being unfamiliar with the new La7. Jeebus, the La7 is 40-50mph faster on the deck. The Spit IX is helpless against any competently flown La7.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Bzzzzzzzzzzzt! Whzzzzzzzzzzzzzt! Zeeeeeeeeeee!
Help! Somebody throw some water on this reel! She's overheating! Cap'n! Back her down! Back her down! I'm running out of line!
Too easy. Way too easy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://www.senet.com.au/~mhyde/ww2_aircraft_german.htm#fighter (http://www.senet.com.au/~mhyde/ww2_aircraft_german.htm#fighter)
Focke-Wulf FW 190 (20,087 all variants)
http://members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/gma.htm (http://members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/gma.htm)
Fighter and Ground Attack FW Variants Total 20,010.
But I'm sure you have the exact numbers and can prove these wrong. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
However, if you are going to set the above "all new" standards for which aircraft should be included in the planeset I eagerly await the publishing of "Ram's Rules". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So Fighter variants are to be separated from Ground Attack variants? (What's the minimum % threshold for inclusion in the planeset in these individual categories, btw? How do you handle an aircraft that was both a capable fighter AND a good ground attack aircraft within a single variant? Have you got that far in your new rule set?)
And we will also use % of total national aircraft production divided by theater of war now?
Wait, maybe we're just using % in National Air Force total at war's end? (Does this mean no early war planes then?)
Guess I'll just have to wait until you publish. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm sure there are some Allied Opportunists that will love the new brackets though... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Total kills? Think I'll just wait for Deja's comprehensive and honest breakdown of fighter v fighter kills, thanks.
"Perk 'em all, Perk 'em all........
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I suspect the LA-7 stats never really change much.
This will be an interesting test of Rip's theory on the CHog; that it isn't that great, but all kinds of people fly it because they see all the whining about it on the BBS.
The La-7 is a far better example of a mediocre AC that people are whining about being uber all over the place, including the open channel in main.
If Rip's theory holds, we should se usage of the La-7 steadily rise.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Frenchy said:
That is total crap, and shows you haven't flown the La7.
The La7 has approximately the same sustained turn rates as the Yak-9U and the P-51D. Do either of those two planes outturn most of the rest of the planeset?
No, and neither does the La7.
What Zigrat Said Vermi (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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OK.. be fair now. If you're going to compare stats, let's keep it to stats since 1.06 was released. How about Fighter Vs Fighter stats:
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/Tour14FvF-28.gif)
AKDejaVu
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Sorry, doubled.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-29-2001).]
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Thanks, Deja.
Help me out here though....
Is a 2% difference between the top plane and any of the next 3 planes "statistically significant"?
Or would you say those four are all "pretty darn close"?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
My, my, my, my, my.....
Four UNPERKED planes that account for OVER 40% of all the fighter to fighter kills.....
Whatever shall we do?????
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Toad
Fly what you like. Like what you fly. Don't worry about what the other guy flies. It's a game.
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Frenchy wrote:
What Zigrat Said Vermi
And I repeat what I said to him (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Prove it!
I have a sneaky suspicion that you may find your wrong.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Is a 2% difference between the top plane and any of the next 3 planes "statistically significant"?
Actually, it is significant given the distribution. But only in a statistical sense. For all intents and purposes, the F4u-1C, La-7 and Spit-IX are being used about the same against fighters. The F4u-1C just has a better k/d. The Dora is being used slightly less, but has as good of a k/d as the 1C. Basically, the 1C and Dora are performing similarly, only more people prefer the 1C. I'd tend to think that was because of overall diversity and familiarity and not necessarily performance based.
An interesting trend... the Dora used to have a much better k/d than the CHog for the first two weeks it was around. It was nearly 1.5 k/d vs fighters as compared to the CHog that was at 1.23 k/d vs fighters during the same two weeks. As the dora novelty wore off and people returned to their favorite rides leaving only the dedicated LW pilots to the dora... the dora's k/d went down and the F4u-1Cs went up. Pretty hard to support the "LW planes only do good because of the pilots" argument with those stats.
But then.. I fly the Yak-9U.. so what do I care. None of the top 4 are an insurmountable challenge to it.. and thusly, I don't think any of them should be perked.
AKDejaVu