Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Sturm on March 26, 2001, 08:57:00 AM
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Man it was beautiful flew my D-9 at 15K full moon out spotted a lanc around 16k. Our dar was down and it was by chance I found him. I closed the distance and flew underneath him. He never saw me "guess he was out for a smoke or doing laundry" So I closed on him from below, range 500 I take a look up and wave at the sleeping tail gunner, he nestles back into his pillow thinking of his bed at home. I pull up and aim at his port wing and engines, as soon as I start hitting him his tail gunner "wet pants and all" unleashes a volley of 50 at me that smack my wing twice and send me spiraling to the ground. Visible damage was 2 smoking engines. If I would have had a ME-410 or a HE-219, prefer the 219 I would have been off looking for my next victim, instead I did a nice pancake into the ground. Another important aspect,is the dar, flying for the Knights we get used to not having it. He-219 with dar albeit limited range would help out. Make it available only to the country with the least amount of flyers, or the country with dar down. Hell give it to everyone. We need 1 of these buff killers asap. Everything is true I just wrote except waiving to the tail gunner I embellished it to make the story seem more real (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) A knight flyer last night responded when I said we needed night fighters with a what do you mean we need them? We have our own dar!! Proceeded by which has been currently down for sometime! Flew without DaR for a good hour or so last night at one time. So here it is a poll Night fighters or no?
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61 P61
What was the question again?
And again, a subliminal message to HTC, "Offer something the competition doesn't have, and prepare for a big market"...secret to marketing success.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-26-2001).]
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Yes even the 61, make us both happy the 219 and the 61. I could suffice with those two even if they were the only planes added next patch.Ho ho remote controlled turret, touched a 61 at the garber facility thing is monsterous. The guy giving the tour said it was more maneuverable then the 51 and 47 at alt.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Radar as an enhancement to be installed at the hanger would be helpful on certain N/F aircraft. Night fighting was a major part of the air war and it was not flown by standard aircraft and suicidle pilots. Keep the moonlit arena, but please get the technology.
Night Fighter nut,
F/L Hening
416RCAF
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Perk points for radar. If you get a 219 you have to use perk points in order to get the radar, otherwise it is a normal 219 with the shrage musik of course. That way not every goober has a flying radar dome. And make it expensive as well. I would pay 200 for radar. Although it would take me 1 week to get it it would be worth it.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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One thing we might have is the dweebs who say the 410 can't turn with the zeke therefore make it an uber fighter, this in turn will bring out the anti-lufty's saying it should be banned and no twin engine fighter could out manuever a zeke, along with 1000's of pages of facts and documents for their cause showing a P-51 can out turn a 14 thousand pound fighter. Hundreds of threads stating the removal of this bastige of a plane, while the lufty's are sitting back and laughing at the simple fact without a single post of data knowing that the plane was wrong in the first place, and form a campaign to have it be brought back to its original debut instead of outright removal or addition to the perk system with a single thread. Would this really happen you be the judge.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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I SAY YEA!!!
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Yes Please...
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6d60JNIFs2mHfM9ggHF4xY6Gy1uBBOIL0vAzWuZ4VQ!pBhaoFjvmZM4qCFICQ)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-26-2001).]
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As Britain was the first country with radar equipped nightfighters, scored the first kil with a radar equipped plane, and had the best nightfighter of the war, how about adding the Mossie as the first nightfighter?
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Mossie best night fighter? Don't think so, JU-88 by all means was it. Stats don't lie, kills do, 88 was impressive to say the least, not knocking the mossie but the 88 stood clear above it. He-219 if the numbers were greater was the best NF of the war, and also the most powerful AC in WW2. Also had a 2-1 kills to lost planes ratio, lost planes being anything ground mishaps and such.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Sturm,
Keep in mind that the He219 couldn't even climb at 2,000ft per minute. It WAS a good nightfighter, but it had some big drawbacks too.
As for the Ju88 being a better nightfighter than the Mosquito: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
You should read some non-Luftwaffe books.
Nightfighters I would like modeled:
He219
Mosquito NF.Mk 30
P-61B
Ju88C
Beaufighter
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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How did the 262 nightfighter version do ?
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Originally posted by Glunz:
How did the 262 nightfighter version do ?
It killed several mosquitoes without letting them even know they were about to die (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW The best prop nightfighter of the WWII was the He219.
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Karnak - didn't you know that the LW had all the best planes, the best pilots, the most skill? Moreover, they were all fervent anti-fascists too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Exactly who won the war, anyway? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Why the heck would we want night fighters? We can see at night just fine due to the magic icons, and we have an in-flight AWACS display which far exceeds any equipment in a WW2-vintage night fighter.
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"We can see at night just fine due to the magic icons, and we have an in-flight AWACS display which far exceeds any equipment in a WW2-vintage night fighter."
Who do you mean by "we"
I can't see those magic icons at night. Hell, I can't even see the ground at night. Everything other than my cockpit instruments are TOTALLY BLACK.
You have an in-flight AWACS display at night? That's funny...I presume you mean the map. MY map at night is a very dark green blob, which is useless for much of anything.
Not all of us are equally affected by night. So saying what "we" have is misleading.
If night is here to stay, I would like some real nightfighters--that way I would at least know when an invisible plane (that can somehow see me) is closing in on me.
Night is BS currently. Get rid of it, or fix it.
J_A_B
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If you don't like night its okay.
Here's plenty of ppl who does. So keep your BS for yourself and log off when night comes.
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Hey !
Where did Me-110 went ?
2x20mm and 2x30mm, all in nose, would make it great bomber buster. Dunno about night fighter version, tho. Anyone know what armament it had ? Those front-upward shooting things ?
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Mosquito NF.XXX was simply the best prop nightfighter of WW2. No contest.
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"So keep your BS for yourself and log off when night comes."
Somehow I don't think you'd say that if you were affected by it the same way I am, ESPECIALLY if your playing time was as limited as mine. Logging off due to night means no AH for that day, and decidedly worse enjoyment value per dollar.
I have no problem with night itself; I just don't like how it totally ruins the game for some people (including me). I was a bit rude earlier, but I have a hard time staying calm when people advocate something which totally ruins the game for some of us.
No night doesn't ruin the game for you; it's just one less feature. Night DOES ruin the game for some of us. That's why I say keep night (and the clouds) off until it's fixed.
Once night is fixed, then add some nightfighters and keep the night as long as you want (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
J_A_B
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J_A_B; have you tried adjusting your gamma settings? What video card have you got?
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Originally posted by juzz:
Mosquito NF.XXX was simply the best prop nightfighter of WW2. No contest.
Don´t want to sound mean, but wasn´t the Ju88G running circles around the Mossie? And wasn´t the He219 running circles around Ju88G? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by csThor (edited 03-27-2001).]
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The He219 was the better, however wasn't the NJG equipped with mostly Bf110's?
The mossie should've been a gimme in AH, but alas not yet..
Tronsky
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219's were not a massed produced night fighter persay. DO to Hitlers bungling, most NF units were 110's 88's 217's. Of course we had a handful of 154's 410's FW's 109's as well to name a few other name brand planes. ME-110 was poweerful but drastically slower then other NF's as well as the 217. They had heavy armament, but nothing compared to the 219. Which was faster, and had the first ejection seat installed in a AC. Have your wooden mossie, I would take the 219 everytime. If ya know what a HE-219 A/7 series is, then you also would know in this variant category is the mossie hunter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Originally posted by Sturm:
219's were not a massed produced night fighter persay. DO to Hitlers bungling, most NF units were 110's 88's 217's. Of course we had a handful of 154's 410's FW's 109's as well to name a few other name brand planes. ME-110 was poweerful but drastically slower then other NF's as well as the 217. They had heavy armament, but nothing compared to the 219. Which was faster, and had the first ejection seat installed in a AC. Have your wooden mossie, I would take the 219 everytime. If ya know what a HE-219 A/7 series is, then you also would know in this variant category is the mossie hunter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In fact it was not Hitler's fault, but Edhardt Milch's. Why, I dont know, but he was heavily biased against the Uhu even while the test pilots who flew it were absolutely enthusiastic about the plane.
Ju88 and Do217 nigh fighters were very good anti bomber platforms. However they were converted BOMBERS. Slow, underpowered and very very heavy.
The Me110 as a nightfighter was a good plane, but the Me410 was much much better as night fighter than the 110 (naturally).
The Ta154 was a monster in potence. However it was grounded because its problems with the adhesive "eating" the wood of the airframe, thus ending a very very proimising career.
The He219 was the best night fighter of WWII; simply was an awesome machine that only lacked one thing.
More numbers.
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Ah yes Edhardt Milch, but yet who was he trying to please? From what I have read, the major AC producers/developers everything revolved around political power. You must also look at the company building the 219 which fell out in disfavor for failed projects "He-177 need I say more". Once it was proven this fighter was a godsend to its pilots who were crying out for more 219's, they soon realized the 219 had to be discontinued or "production drastically cut". Reason being? Guess who would be next. The HE-219 had a 2-1 kill ratio, which considering the timeframe it flew in is incredible. Another what if, had these been flying in 43 brits would have had second thoughts on bombing in 44 at night. That is what I find fascinating, learning from the mistakes others make. We always go thru our minds thinking what if this had happened instead of this. My favorite one of all time is sending the Tirpitz out with the Bismarck, yes it was still going thru sea trials, but what better way to train a crew than with OJT.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/P61.jpg)
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Ok rip what is it? Chaff? Stealth picture?
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Actual combat of P61's in the European theatre.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Originally posted by Sturm:
Ah yes Edhardt Milch, but yet who was he trying to please?
[/b]
Himself. If you read a little about him and his ·brilliant· decissions you will know how much do the Allies owe to him. if the Fw190D9 flew in late 1944, and not in mid 1943, and if the Ta152H1 only saw service in 1945 instead of 1944, was mainly because the RLM stupid decissions based on political stupid reasons (heh, Tank asked for permission to fit the DB603 into a Fw190 as soon as in november 1942...guess when did he received the "go ahead" From the RLM?...NOVEMBER 1944. No doubt the Ta153 never passed the prototype stage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) ).
And who was at the head of the RLM?. riiiiiight. Milch.
Everyone wanted to please Hitler, and Goering, of course. But Milch was an egocentrical stupid who had problems with almost everyone under his command who was not 100% in agreement with him. (and his clashes with Willy Messerchmitt were apocaliptical. But this time he had to see how one of his archenemies was the designer of the main german fighter of the early-mid war (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Another what if, had these been flying in 43 brits would have had second thoughts on bombing in 44 at night
Nah. They would've kept the offensive regadless of the losses. One of the biggest war criminals in WWII was the head of the British bombing campaign.
Yes, I talk about Harris and his criminal policy of zone and terror bombing. Moreover, while the RAF was having disastrous losses (IIRC a mission against Nuremberg in March'44 had a loss rate of 13%), he didnt have a problem. He ordered the bombing to go ahead, and nothing nor noone would've stopped that order if was not Churchill himself.
And Harris was one of Churchill's favorites......
My favorite one of all time is sending the Tirpitz out with the Bismarck, yes it was still going thru sea trials, but what better way to train a crew than with OJT.
[/b]
My favorite one is letting Tirpitz in port and finishing KM Graf Zeppelin with a complement of 35 navalised 109Ts (better yet, why not Fw190A1s? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) and 12 navalised Ju87R stukas.
THAT would've been an unstoppable terror (given the abysmal qualities of the RN carrier fighters-wich at the time relied still on the Fulmar as its main fighter), such a German task group would've been simply unstoppable.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-27-2001).]
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You are correct on Milch, I am going to have to dig thru my books and find the one that had the nice writings on him. Another one I found funny was Hitler's fascination with big guns, the Dora was a waste, of military funding. I believe 10-15 King Tigers could have been made for 1 Dora, which would have made a big difference as compared to the 1 Dora which took over 1000 men to man it and secure it. The rushing of the Mk Vd panther into the battelfield, the misuse of the Tiger I in Russia in its first battle "sending them to fight in swamps? lol" Stukas being used after 40-41? Guess BoB didn't teach them anything. Hitlers fascination with everything being a dive bomber, the collapse of the Jet program at an early stage, do to the we will take Europe in no time thinking. Long range 4 engine bombers? Close quarters for bomber crews for moral purposes? LOL this one is good too, 109 production after the G-10? I could list numerous more on the things that were done wrong. Which we would agree with, was the V-1 a success or a waste of resources? This one is quite debateable but the answer is very clear. Was the King Tiger ever killed from a head on shot from another tank? And no not side shots were its armor was only 80mm and slightly sloped.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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I'm not sure about this one:
One video film I bought few years ago about Luftwaffe claims that with money Germany spend to develope and manufacture V-2 ballistic rocket they could instead it built over 10.000 Me-109's.
True or not RLM really made some really bad decisions.
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Yes, I talk about Harris and his criminal policy of zone and terror bombing.
Yeah, yeah. The usual out-of-context apologetist crap that you are so fond of RAM - it's one standard for the Axis, but quite another for the Allies. Criminal compared to what exactly? The attempted extinction of an entire race? The routine murder of the disabled and mentally ill? The routine enslavement of whole populations? The atrocities committed by occupying forces to civilian populations? The creation of several million refugees? The list is almost infinitely long...
Frankly, if it ended the war sooner, an atomic bomb on Berlin would have been acceptable back then. I don't doubt for a second that if the German's had had the technology, large mushroom clouds would have been appearing over London and even New York.
Compared to how the axis conducted themselves in the war, the Allies aquited themselves admirably.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by Staga:
I'm not sure about this one:
One video film I bought few years ago about Luftwaffe claims that with money Germany spend to develope and manufacture V-2 ballistic rocket they could instead it built over 10.000 Me-109's.
True or not RLM really made some really bad decisions.
Only problem I see with that is the human resources required to man that many planes, since they didn't have a pilot rotation that would have helped train new LW flyers.
You can have all the A/C in the world, but its worthless junk if you don't have the skill base being passed along to fly them.
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Originally posted by Sturm:
You are correct on Milch, I am going to have to dig thru my books and find the one that had the nice writings on him. Another one I found funny was Hitler's fascination with big guns, the Dora was a waste, of military funding. I believe 10-15 King Tigers could have been made for 1 Dora, which would have made a big difference as compared to the 1 Dora which took over 1000 men to man it and secure it.
You talk about the Schwere Dora, right? that mega-gun?.
Well, with hindsight you are right, of course. It was a waste of resources...but in 1939, when the Blitzkrieg was nowhere but on Guderian's and Manstein's minds, the Dora was seens as the Maginot Line's Nemesis. Yep, the Dora supergun was designed to blew apart the Maginot line's underground defences. And indeed, it would've done a wonderful work in that role, as it was shown against Sevastopol's fortifications in 1942. however, with von Manstein's plan of invasion, Maginot line was surrounded, never attacked frontally; and so the purpose of the Dora faded away.
So, as I say, with hindsight,yes, it was a waste of resources. but in 1939 ,and with no clue of what the German wehrmatch was about to do, for sure that the megagun concept wont sound so bad.
The rushing of the Mk Vd panther into the battelfield, the misuse of the Tiger I in Russia in its first battle "sending them to fight in swamps? lol"
Panthers in Kursk was a mistake, but not because they were used, but because the battle itself. The Panzerwaffe needed even the last AFV it could gather for its offensive. The Panther was not combat ready, true, but any tank could make a difference on the summer offensive in 1943. The problem was that the offensive was done on the sector the Soviets had been fortifying for four months.
Stukas being used after 40-41? Guess BoB didn't teach them anything. Hitlers fascination with everything being a dive bomber
The Stuka was a very valuable plane up to early 1944; even more in its G incarnation. The divebombers were very useful planes in Russia up to 1943, when the soviets really started to wrestle the air supremacy to the germans. And in the Mediterranean, the plane simply caused devastation. The HMS Illustrious was not sunk in 1941 malta convoys...barely. But it was no longer a battleworthy ship after the massive damage the X Fliegerkorps inflicted on it. Shipping losses on the mediterranean due Stukas were terrifying; the plane was the best divebomber of the world (yep, better than the Dauntless). The problem that the dive bomber plane can't survive in an enemy controlled air space is another thing. But the plane itself was VERY useful.
the collapse of the Jet program at an early stage, do to the we will take Europe in no time thinking. Long range 4 engine bombers? Close quarters for bomber crews for moral purposes? LOL this one is good too, 109 production after the G-10? I could list numerous more on the things that were done wrong.
collapse of jet project or not, anything resembling an operative Me262 wont have been done before when it was. SImply said: the engines were so problematic that the 262 was not a fighting unit until very late'44. So much for the story of Hitler Schnellbomber fever causing delay of the 262. The Jabo 262s had almost no time of combat because their engines were catching fire all the time.
Regarding the long range bomber, well, the Germans had a marked lack of hindsight; and as goering said, in 1939 numbers were more important than long range or heavy loads. That changed suddenly when France fell (thing that caugh the germans as surprised, or more, than the allies). Suddenly their useful tactical bomber force was not so useful on the strategic role. Still the task could've been done; and the LW was on the verge of victory in the BoB. The decision to bomb london was what caused its defeat. And that was a paramount mistake by hitler, yes.
Which we would agree with, was the V-1 a success or a waste of resources? This one is quite debateable but the answer is very clear.
Both the V1 and V2 were a complete waste of resources for germany. However the US SAC and the USSR ICBM force wont have thought the same in the 50's. Neither the NASA or the russian Spacial programme.
Was the King Tiger ever killed from a head on shot from another tank? And no not side shots were its armor was only 80mm and slightly sloped.
The King tiger had a maybach engine rated at 595hp. The same engine wich the Panther and Tiger I carried. Only with a difference, the Panther weighted 35 tons, the Tiger I 51tons and the Tiger II weighted 70.
You could call that an "achilles heel".
BTW that was another STUPID decision coming from the ministry of Armaments; because there were DB engines wich could deliver up to 1000hp,and were in a perfectly working status.
Why werent installed on the tigers?. We'd never know...but that stupidity from the German ministry of armaments (ran by who? YEEEEEEEEEEEES! Milch...IIRC Speer got the ministry too late to change this mistake) saved a lot of Allied tank crews.
I really cant understand how the same nation can have so many incompetents just aside of so many brilliant minds. Germany in WWII is a good example of this.
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Yeah, yeah. The usual out-of-context apologetist crap that you are so fond of RAM - it's one standard for the Axis, but quite another for the Allies. Criminal compared to what exactly? The attempted extinction of an entire race? The routine murder of the disabled and mentally ill?
etc etc etc...
I've said it one time and one thousand, Dowding. THat Germany did so much atrocious things will NEVER!!! exculpate those who did the same things on the allied side.
Goering was a nazi pig and a war criminal because he ordered the criminal bombings on Rotterdam, Belgrade, London, Coventry, etc.
Then WTF was harris?. A war criminal.
Then WTF Was LeMay?. A war criminal.
Not only them, but many many others on the victorious side did atrocious things on WWII. That the Axis did the most, and the most horrible ones doenst exculpate those who did it in the allied side.
And dont tell me that "war is hell". Consciously ordering atrocities like Dresden, Hamburg, Tokio, etc, is not waging war.
Its commiting massive crimes against the humanity.
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Your so right on that the allies handled it quite well, take russia for example. Lets see invades Poland kills jews, hides the fact they did it and blame it on Germany. The bombing of civilians was done by accident over London, Britain retaliated with its own raid. Mind you because one bomber hits a town a whole force has to come and light a city up? I understand retalitory and all, but what Harris did was not ethical as well. Fire bombings of Japan, dropping of a nuclear device's on a city or two, knowing it will kill anything within a certain range. War does evil things pointing fingers at one and saying we are squeeky clean is not right either. Each country did the worst thing possible, albeit thru Ethnic cleansing, firestorm raids, mass murders. We seem to always set blame towards germany, yet we always forget what japan did in China, and the other SEA countries. Or what Russia did internally, and thru conquest. Or the US and british. No one got out of this war without some sort of bad rap, yet germany will always have the worst one for genocide. I guess the 15 thousand allied soldiers who died building that little bridge was ok then? Face it spouting off information about 1 country will lead you to this kind of a response, I look into the military hardware more so then the politics that were involved, plus it happened over 50 years ago. I wasn't alive and I have no grudges for it. Unlike some people in our US society that seem to hold on to things that happened over 140 years ago. Damn I should blame the dinosaurs for crapping in my yard 65 million years ago as well. Grow up people otherwise we should still be hating the french, "ok maybe not this one" we actually have the french to thank for our country being independent of britain.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Yeah, yeah. The usual out-of-context apologetist crap that you are so fond of RAM - it's one standard for the Axis, but quite another for the Allies. Criminal compared to what exactly? The attempted extinction of an entire race? The routine murder of the disabled and mentally ill? The routine enslavement of whole populations? The atrocities committed by occupying forces to civilian populations? The creation of several million refugees? The list is almost infinitely long...
Frankly, if it ended the war sooner, an atomic bomb on Berlin would have been acceptable back then. I don't doubt for a second that if the German's had had the technology, large mushroom clouds would have been appearing over London and even New York.
Compared to how the axis conducted themselves in the war, the Allies aquited themselves admirably.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 03-27-2001).]
Dowding I hardly believe this since Germany from the start had the means to unleash chemical warfare against the people of great Britain and all of the Axis enemies and they refused up to the end to do this. Out of desperation maybe who knows. They'd probably bomb the US not Britain considering the large amounts of radiation that would linger all over Europe and might even contaminate themselves. But even if they would have developed it I doubt they would of used it only as last resort.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot
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Following Glasses' argument...
Just FYI, "Sarin" gas was developed by germans. They had loads and loads of chemical gasses ready for use. Quantities that would make you become pale.
I've wondered a lot why didnt Hitler order the use of this massive stock of gasses in the latest days of the war, when everything else was lost, and defeat was absolute.
I've never found the answer. But I surely am thankful he did never give the order to use the chemical weapons.
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Panthers in Kursk was a mistake, but not because they were used, but because the battle itself. The Panzerwaffe needed even the last AFV it could gather for its offensive. The Panther was not combat ready, true, but any tank could make a difference on the summer offensive in 1943. The problem was that the offensive was done on the sector the Soviets had been fortifying for four months.
Yes any tank could have been used but most D model's ended up as a static pillbox do to transmission problems, seems they were built a little to light and not able to handle the 42+ tons of weight. The Kursk offensive should never have happened, it is very hard to sit back and recooperate against russia and its resources, after Moscow Russians were incredible at making bridgeheads, and taking advantage of terrian in defensive posture, there attacks were not the greatest though, thru sheer size and volume of attack is what brought upon the end in the east. The germans developed incredible defensive zones for attacks by russians, so as to minimize the amount of men needed per sector, do to the huge area they were defending. With Pak 40 and 43 AT guns, using Tigers "albeit in a less then threatening role" panthers KT's jagdpanthers and other TD's germany was now poised as a defensive force. The stuka OTH yes it was great if it had air cover, but, take the Il-2 no need for aircover and quite a few missions it was sent out in force without it. Germany needed a ground attack aircraft were it could free up fighters for other duties. The HS-129 surprisingly was not massed produced, underpowered in combat it still was very effective, bigger engines and a dedicated ground attack gun were needed for this craft and that might have solved one of their headaches. What also puzzled me was the lack of cooperation between the KM and the Luft, except for JG 26 covering the channel dash not much is talked about air cover for naval units, or working hand in hand very often. Granted I don't have my books in front of me to get names and data which would make things easier for me to write, for this is all coming from my head.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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As painful as it may be for you RAM, war is hell. Ask any veteran of any conflict. If it was any other way, civilised nations wouldn't do what they do to avoid it. If you need an example, compare and contrast Britain's approach to European politics circa 1939, and that of certain Germanic nation.
Who was making the aircraft your glorious LW heroes were using to shoot down Allied aircrews? Who was making the fuel and the bullets? A terrible decision to have to take, but after you have seen your homeland bombed to pieces while all around you countries fell under the darkest rule perhaps in Europe's long history - I'm sure it becomes a much easier decision to make.
Since Churchill was the C-in-C, by implication you seen him as a war criminal - he held the executive power.
Imagine you are Churchill and every day you see the casualty reports for the British armed forces from occupied France - more young men who will never see their homes again. If it reduced the death toll by hundreds of thousands, how can you blame them for taking it? It's a decision only great men can make, and we had a great man in the form of Churchill.
Remember that the German high command could have unconditionally surrendered at any time and put a halt to the bombing, the very same day. They are the true criminals - if they didn't give a flying shag about their own people, why should the allies?
I'm proud of maybe 90% of the actions of the British Armed forces during WW2. How many Germans can say the same? Would the world generally, and the German people specifically, have been better off, if we had decided to call a halt to the offensive once all the occupied countries had been freed? It seems to me that is what you are proposing, considering a prolonged conflict was not an option.
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In response who actually started ww2? Bet ya limeys might know something about this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) If you do recall Britain did declare war on germany and not vice versa. Thank Britain for the millions that died because france can't fight its way out of a wet paper bag.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Originally posted by Sturm:
In response who actually started ww2? Bet ya limeys might know something about this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) If you do recall Britain did declare war on germany and not vice versa. Thank Britain for the millions that died because france can't fight its way out of a wet paper bag.
Sturm, that is quite hypocrital. England HAD to declare war, there was no other way to stop Hitler's expansionism.
However, yes, the British were DIRECT responsible of the WWII:
But I'd rather put the reasons way further back. Versalles Humilliation. 50% of the reasons after that humilliation being British.
no Versalles unfair peace treaty, no WWII. Now who caused WWII the first?.
Dowding, I dont want to be harsh, but your arguments stink. War is hell if the wager wants it so. To say the opposite is to be an hypocrital.
BTW Yes, from my point of view, Churchill was a war criminal. Not only because he was the CinC, but because he directly ordered the first bombing on Berlin, and gave the direct order to bomb Dresden.
Vae Victis.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Sturm, that is quite hypocrital. England HAD to declare war, there was no other way to stop Hitler's expansionism.
Yes I know, but it was just a rant (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) After the fall of France the war should have ended there. Besides the weather is terrible in England, and if not for the US the brits really did not have anyway of stopping the germans, that point has been proven. Without US aid of materials and ships, and monitoring of the Atlantic by US crews. The brits really were in a bind to say the least. Do you really think Churchill would have ordered the bombing if he didnt know the US was going to help out? Turning on Russia for Barbarossa was insane. The true defeat of the Battle of Britain was that.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Remember that the German high command could have unconditionally surrendered at any time and put a halt to the bombing, the very same day. They are the true criminals - if they didn't give a flying shag about their own people, why should the allies?
why? because doing otherwise would be falling to the same level as their enemies'.
And remember 1940? london bombings? should have Churchill surrendered AT ONCE?. War is hell, right?, and if his civilian population is being bombed day and night, is because he (he and his clearly criminal and biased high command) is a criminal for not surrendering right?.
That line of argument STINKS, m8.
About your argument on the German High command, you know, there were several plots against hitler's life all during the war?. Of course is very easy,isnt it?. You decide that you want the war to end, but happens that Hitler doenst want. What do you do?
1944 plot against hitler is a good show of what do you do, and what do you risk for failing in doing it. Seems you have a short memory right?.
So, war is hell. Perfect. Then why Nuremberg, condemning soldiers?. Then why did Doenitz go to prison for 15 years?. Then why was Goering sentenced to death?. Then why was the major part of the German wehrmacht and luftwaffe's high command sent to prison?. War is hell right?.
Then either of two things: either you do the same trial on the Allies high commanders (Lockwood, Harris, Lemay, even Churchill, stalin, Zukhov,etc...)...or you dont do it at all.
Nuremberg was the epitome of the unfairness, regarding the armed forces. (NOTE I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE DEATH CAMPS AND EXTERMINATION, I TALK ABOUT MILITARY CHARGES ONLY).
As I said...Vae victis.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Topic: "We need night fighters! A simple poll".
Need I add anymore to this?
R4M, another hijacking?
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-27-2001).]
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.squelch Ripsnort
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Yes rip, could you post some data on the 61?
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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My arguments stink, RAM? How ironic! At least I put forward arguments, no matter how bad they may be! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
no Versalles unfair peace treaty, no WWII. Now who caused WWII the first?
Versailles was A contributory factor. I stress the singular here, because there were a whole host of other causal circumstances. It's kind of like a house of cards, remove one and the whole thing falls down - the Versailles Treaty wasn't the only card.
Most notably is the actual rise of Hitler and his electoral success. He had virtually no support before 1929 from the very influential middle classes. With the downturn in the German economy following the Wall Street crash, the class bands narrowed. The middle classes saw their savings wiped out, business owners were terrified of a communist uprising. One man and one ideology stepped into the breach.
Hitler promised to "make Germany great again", promised afluence and stability to the middle and upper classes. His anti-communist stance helped to bring powerful industry captains to his standard.
In times of hardship, it is a known fact that all sociological classes 'radicalise' and common bigotry comes to the fore. Support for the centre parties melted away, and the Nazis grew in strength.
From May 1928 to March 1933 the Nazis increased the number of elected deputies from 12 to 288. A percentage increase of 2400%. By November 1933 this had increased to 661.
The Nazis had a superb propaganda machine, an unbeatable manifesto (considering the desperation of the populace) and an ideology that had found a common bigotry in the German people - the Jews. They and Versailles would be the scape-goat for Germany's troubles.
But without the Wall Street Crash and the economic hard-ship that followed it, this would have been all for nought.
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Ok answer this how many Japanese were tried and convicted? Little is known about this and is quite amazing how it is kept under wraps. The Japanese did the same thing yet basically got a pardon from the US. There doctors were brought over to the US to continue with the experiments they had started over there, and a little known fact the patients were alive and they were either Chinese Koreans Filipinos and such. SO please it is not right to acquit one for the same crimes and punish the other, yet doesn't that happen in our criminal justice system now? Have we learned anything yet? And can we get back to the original topic of Night Fighters PLEASE!!!!
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Sorry all - I won't post about it again.
RAM - start a thread in the 'History' section, if you want to continue.
Cheers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, Sturm - Nazi scientists by the bucket load were shipped over to the US for their missile program.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Well, he who is without sin cast the first stone....well that settled that!
Now back to business....He-219 for the Krauts, P-61 for the Yanks, and the Mosquito NF30 for the Brits, and the poor Japs the J1N1-C Gekko"Irving".
Remember, "If you don't bomb our harbors we won't nuke your cities!"
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Originally posted by Sturm:
Yes rip, could you post some data on the 61?
You bet!
P61 Info (http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p61.htm)
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KI-46 for the JP faster then the Irving.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Sorry all - I won't post about it again.
RAM - start a thread in the 'History' section, if you want to continue.
Just do it if you want and I'll answer. I will give a short, concise answer to your post.
If Wall Street clash had happened, but no Versalles in 1919, then no Hitler would've won the elections in Germany.
The opposite was not that true. Germany was going out from the depression it had been into since 1918, but its economy was too fragile without the Saare and Rhineland. And Hitler's call for the awakening of the National Pride would've probably been heard sooner or later. Mostly because, opposite of what you might think Hitler was a quite known man in Germany, first at a local level in Münich, and later after his failed coup wich paradoxically won him a lot of attention and respect.
And later of all, because Goebbels propaganda and the GErman deep desire for revenge after the draconian demands of the Versailles treaty.
Do you know that, had the story have passed with no Hitler, Germany would've have had to pay reparations to France and UK up to 1988?. Germans were deeply insulted by versalles. With or without crash in 1929 the NDSAP would prolly have won the elections in germany sooner or later. Maybe not, but prolly yes.
If Versalles had been a decent, fair peace; then Hitler would've never had its first and most important argument: german nationalism and national pride. Hate against the Jewish was secondary to the first; Hitler had the support of ALL the Major bussinessmen in Germany (because they wanted to recover the Rhineland and its industries). Hitler would've had the money, would've had propaganda and would've had the motive.
Without Versalles he would've had nothing of that.
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It's been my suspicion for a long time that night fighters and night fighter vs. bomber scenarios are one of those things that SOUNDS cool theoretically but, in practice, won't be all that much fun and people will quickly tire of it.
I guess we'll find out :-) I may try to make the nightfighter scenario.
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Also some people may not know that Germany actually wanted to ally themselves with Britain. In the pre war years Germany adored the English culture and their customs they strived to be what the hi monarchy was. But then relations started to go downhill after 'Der Fuhrer' started to ask for His Lebensraum among other things and well we all know what happened next.
Yes Bring the night fighters . Todloo! todloo!
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot