Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: juzz on October 03, 2000, 11:15:00 PM
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Clue: It can climb to 5000m in 4.28 minutes... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Answer is Ki-44-IIb. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
It can climb to 5,000m in 4'26"... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, Ki-44-IIa climb to 5000m in 4'15".
-Mitsu
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SHOW ME THE SHOKI!!!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!
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Shoki early war? Early war would be Ki-43 Hyabusa.
Spritle
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Ki-44-I was in service before 12/7/41. That's as early as you get in the Pacific...
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-04-2000).]
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5000 m is about 15k
This means it would climb about the same as Spit 5 and be outclimbed and outran by most of the other monsters in the arena.
How about Ki84 or Ki 61 first ?
For that matter.. WHERE IS THE SPITFIRE XIV ????
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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BZZT 16,400 feet. Average climb rate is about 3900 fpm between 0m and 5000m! The AH Spit 9 and Spit V would be sucking exhaust fumes.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-04-2000).]
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SHOKI, SHOKI, SHOKI.....
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Even the La-5FN would be sucking exhaust fumes in a climbing contest.
It does 376mph at 17k with 1320hp. At sea level it has 200hp more - I wonder how fast it goes then?
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Funked,
According to "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" by Rene J Francillon the Shoki completed trials and was accepted by the JAAF (Japanese Army Air Force) in September 1942.
The Ki-43 first flew in 1938 and was well into production while the Shoki was still on the drawing board. I'm not saying the Ki-43 was better just earlier.
The Shoki production ended in late 1944 as the Ki-84 took over.
The Shoki was a good plane but the Hayate and Ki-100 were better. My vote would be for either of these aircraft over the Shoki from a pure performance stand-point.
Prior to 1942 there were only 10 Shoki's produced. I wouldn't classify that as being in service.
Spritle
[This message has been edited by Spritle (edited 10-05-2000).]
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Elevon (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki44.html) says...
The pre-production aircraft and two of the prototypes (which had been brought up to pre-production standard) were turned over to the Army for service trials on September 15, 1941. They were handed over to an experimental squadron, the Kawasemi Butai, for service trials. The unit was sent to China for combat trials, and in May 1942 was renamed 47th Dokuritsu Dai Chijugo Chutai. In September of 1942, all tests were completed and the type was accepted for service with the JAAF.
Spritle; the Ki-100 had the about same power as the Ki-44-II, but it weighed about 1600lbs more. I really don't see it performing any better than the Shoki... the Ki-100 is 16mph slower and takes an extra 1.72 minutes to reach 5000m, afaik.
The Ki-84 is better, when the engine works. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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First off the Ki-44-Ia that saw service in 1941 was vastly different than the -IIb. Probably because it had almost 200 HP more than the -Ia. Again only 9 of the first 10 aircraft were avialable for the evaluation Chutai. And they were sent to China in May 1942.
The pre-production aircraft was 7 along with 3 prototypes. So 9 aircraft were evaluated in China.
Of the 1225 Ki-44s built 1167 were built between Nov. 1942 and Dec. 1944. That means approximately 100 units had been produced before 1943. I would hardly call that early war.
Here is a direct quote from the book "Shoki was disliked by Service pilots because of its high landing speed and comparitive lack of manoeuvrability."
Have you seen the wings on the Shoki? I doubt the plane could get out of its own way.
Another quote out of the book "The Ki-44 was restricted against snap rolls, spins, stalls and inverted flight at high speeds, and pilot protection and self-sealing fuel tanks were found ineffective against the standard Allied 0.5 in machine-guns."
At least the Ki-84 could turn, and had effective armor and self sealing tanks. Yes towards the end of the war the engines became unreliable as did almost everything in Japan at that time. I don't think that engine reliability is modeled however. Also the Ki-84 enjoyed a 16mph advantage over the Shoki.
Spritle
[This message has been edited by Spritle (edited 10-05-2000).]
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Ki-44 had some really nice schemes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://www.aeromaster.com/jpg48/ad48170a.jpg (http://www.aeromaster.com/jpg48/ad48170a.jpg)
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 10-17-2000).]
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And 40mm cannons! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Good points about the date for first combat. So it's early-mid-war then. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also I'm not sure that the Ki-100 was a better plane than the Ki-44-II except at high altitudes. I think the 3-digit Ki number creates an expectation of performance that the actual aircraft did not live up to.
And most Ki-84's reportedly did not perform significantly better than the Ki-44-II, due to severe manufacturing problems with both the airframe and powerplant.
Mostly I just like the looks of the Ki-44. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And against 1942-43 Allied opponents, it would give IJAAF scenario pilots a devastating weapon.
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PS Spritle:
Have you seen the wings on the Shoki? I doubt the plane could get out of its own way.
Actually the wing loading is no worse than an Fw 190A.
Another quote out of the book "The Ki-44 was restricted against snap rolls, spins, stalls and inverted flight at high speeds
Similar restrictions can be found in pilot's instructions for the P-47D and P-51D.
You have to consider the Shoki in the context of previous Japanese fighters. Pilots who are used to a kite like the Oscar or Nate are going to have some real adjusting to do when transitioning to a plane with a wingloading near 40 lb/ft^2.
and pilot protection and self-sealing fuel tanks were found ineffective against the standard Allied 0.5 in machine-guns.
There was not a piece of armor on any WW2 fighter plane that could stop a direct hit from a .50 cal round. The author's remark is more telling about the .50 cal than the Shoki.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-05-2000).]
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Funked,
I'd like to see your source for your Airframe manufacturing flaws. Actually the Ki-84 required 10,000 fewer man hours to produce than the Shoki, that's per aircraft!
This allowed them to produce 3,514 aircraft between Aug. 1943 and Aug. 1945. That almost triples Ki-44 production for the same time frame. The Ki-84 achieved a production rate of 373 aircraft in a single month the highest of any JAAF aircraft.
Also the only airframe problem that I have ever seen mentioned about the Ki-84 is weak landing gear on the later varients. That's it, no other comments on airframe. If you can quote a source that would help a bunch.
I think it says a huge amount about the Frank that Nakagima canned the Ki-44 in favor of the Ki-84. Hardly better than the Ki-44? I would say that everyone thought the Ki-84 was better.
I think if you polled you would see that given the choice most people would fly the Frank over the Shoki. It does everything better except climb.
Spritle
P.S.
The Frank had some nice paint schemes as well
(http://www.aeromaster.com/jpg48/ad48462a.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Spritle (edited 10-05-2000).]
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I don't think people are ready for FRANK - listen to them complain about GEORGE! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
What you want is Shoki instead, with 37mm and 40mm fun-guns of course! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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What I have read in `Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki in Japanese Army Air Force Service' by Richard M. Bueschel ISBN: 0-88740-914-8
on page 10 states, `It was a while before it was realized that the 40mm cannon were a major disappointment. The muzzle velocity was so low the effective range was a suicidal 150 yds. Even before the final aerial assault on Japan, the Ki-44-IIb was yanked from production and comfortably replaced by the Ki-44-IIc in March 1944 starting with serial 1750 with four 12.7mm guns, two each in the fuselage and wings.'
Of course, it could always be an option for those who like to get in really close, after all, we don't have to contend with B-29s in here ;-) .
(http://www.devildogs.com/vmf111/sdsig2.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 10-16-2000).]
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150 metres is fine versus vehicles, which is what they were designed to shoot.