Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Guppy35 on March 17, 2010, 02:48:17 AM
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Can you produce evidence that a Spitfire XVI actually engaged in air combat with German aircraft?
Wading through the histories of 602 and 603 Squadrons, both operating the XVI from November 44 until the end of the war, there are no encounters. They drop lots of bombs on V2 and V-1 sites, but don't shoot baduns in the air outside of the just lifting off V-2 now and then.
I'm wondering if the Spit guys can find an example of the XVI downing a German aircraft. I suppose the Polish Wings might have done it. 74 Squadron maybe, and possibly the Candians. But so far there is little to indicate aircombat between the XVI and the Luftwaffe historically.
So my curiosity is up to prove once in for all if the Spit XVI actually shot another plane down.
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Is this some ploy to get the Spit16 removed and to put the Beau in it's place?
Just kidding. ;)
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That's it, i want my canon pony nowa! :neener:
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Is this some ploy to get the Spit16 removed and to put the Beau in it's place?
Just kidding. ;)
No to remove the .50s, replace with .303s and call it a Lf Mk IX. Then we can install it in MW and really make some whine.
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No to remove the .50s, replace with .303s and call it a Lf Mk IX. Then we can install it in MW and really make some whine.
I'd LMFAO.
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No to remove the .50s, replace with .303s and call it a Lf Mk IX. Then we can install it in MW and really make some whine.
id love to shove the .303s in there. my a6m2 may live a little longer :lol
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Actually the lack of evidence of Spit XVI in actual combat may not be a reason to remove it. It may give justification for adding the Gloster Meteor. :D
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I only found 1 reference about the Spit16 tangling with the Luftwaffe. And that was 3 weeks before the war ended in Europe. No other pertinent information was really given. The write up didn't even say for sure that they did fight the Germans. Just that they had a chance to.
It seems that the Spit14 played a bigger roll in air to air combat then the SpitXVI. The 16 had more of a fighter/bomber role.
If i recall the write up correctly, it was assigned to the 74th squadron in february of 1945 and seen very limited combat in NW Germany. No reference to kill/loss stats that i could find.
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I only found 1 reference about the Spit16 tangling with the Luftwaffe. And that was 3 weeks before the war ended in Europe.
Coincidence... or something more?
Hans: Ze Indians haf ziz airquaft zat iz like UFO!
Herman: Ja, I haf zeen it. Retainz E as zo ze gravity und atmozphere did not exist!
Hans: Vat do ve do!?!?!
Herman: Im not going up zer again.
Hans: Focke it. Neizer am I. I sink ve should surrender.
Herman: Ja. I haf zwei kinders! Make ze call...
:::ringringring:::
Hitler: ...Allo?
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No to remove the .50s, replace with .303s and call it a Lf Mk IX. Then we can install it in MW and really make some whine.
Oh my lord! LOL :lol Talk about the ultimate epic whinefest this would produce....
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I don't see them getting rid of, or changing the spixteen because it's a good plane to attract new players. But, by adding older or more difficult planes to fly would also be a good tool of keeping players interested longer ;)
i.e. WW1
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"Actually the lack of evidence of (insert name of aircraft deployed to squadrons by VJ
day) in actual combat may not be a reason to remove it. "
IMO the folks in the community who made this "line in the sand" as to what should
or should not be modeled in AH is an absolute crock.
If it was deployed to squadrons for use, such as the sweet Spixteen, then be grateful
someone modeled it for your (your = you, the reader, not anyone in particular) use online.
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Trainer :rofl
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Spit16 is a pretty sweet ride.
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Spit16 is a pretty sweet ride.
If you like your plane to get kills for you then yes it is.....just like the F4U.
:devil
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Oh my lord! LOL :lol Talk about the ultimate epic whinefest this would produce....
dont see why it would cause a whine in MW,after all it would just be another dead spit tumbling to the ground :D
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If you like your plane to get kills for you then yes it is.....just like the F4U.
:devil
Spit16s are like a massage parlor, nice for a visit every once in a while but overall it's better for you to limit your time in them. I prefer hurri's and p47s, though I can't seem to get my aim down on the 37mm when I try it.
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Can you produce evidence that a Spitfire XVI actually engaged in air combat with German aircraft?
Wading through the histories of 602 and 603 Squadrons, both operating the XVI from November 44 until the end of the war, there are no encounters. They drop lots of bombs on V2 and V-1 sites, but don't shoot baduns in the air outside of the just lifting off V-2 now and then.
I'm wondering if the Spit guys can find an example of the XVI downing a German aircraft. I suppose the Polish Wings might have done it. 74 Squadron maybe, and possibly the Candians. But so far there is little to indicate aircombat between the XVI and the Luftwaffe historically.
So my curiosity is up to prove once in for all if the Spit XVI actually shot another plane down.
first enemy plane shot down is credited to Squadron Leader Stevens, the CO of 603 Squadron. On 16 October 1939 he, and 2 other Spitfires attacked some Junker 88s of 1/KG 30 over the Firth of Forth at Rosyth. At the same time two other sections of 603 Squadron engaged and shot down a Heinkel He-111, later another of the Junker 88s was also shot down and later the same day, another Heinkel He-111 was shot down by 603 Squadron. The Spitfire had opened its account against the enemy. On 29 November, a Heinkel He-111 was shot down at Haddington East Lothian. Credit for the kill went to Flying Officer Archie McKellar of 602 Squadron, although he was interrupted by three Spitfires from 603 Squadron.
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first enemy plane shot down is credited to Squadron Leader Stevens, the CO of 603 Squadron. On 16 October 1939 he, and 2 other Spitfires attacked some Junker 88s of 1/KG 30 over the Firth of Forth at Rosyth. At the same time two other sections of 603 Squadron engaged and shot down a Heinkel He-111, later another of the Junker 88s was also shot down and later the same day, another Heinkel He-111 was shot down by 603 Squadron. The Spitfire had opened its account against the enemy. On 29 November, a Heinkel He-111 was shot down at Haddington East Lothian. Credit for the kill went to Flying Officer Archie McKellar of 602 Squadron, although he was interrupted by three Spitfires from 603 Squadron.
He's asking specifically about the spit XVI not spitfires in general.
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FROM: 2nd Tactical Air Force volume three from the Rhine to Victory January to May 1945" Authors: Christopher Shores & Chris Thomas
Page 522
"Just before 18:00hrs No. 350 Squadron's Belgians pilots arrived to the east of Schwerin whilst undertaking an offensive patrol, and here 20 FW190s were spotted." Four of these were claimed shot down...It seems likely that their opponents were aircraft of I/JG11, which lost 5 FW190s to Spitfires in this area during the day (where is the 5th?); two more were lost by IV/JG3 and another two by I/JG1. So as we can see in the Schwerin area there were 3 units with Fw190 - I/JG11, IV/JG3 and I/JG1
Entry in this book about 421 Squadrons exploits that evening:
"On their fourth operation of the day , eight Spitfire Mk.IXs (in fact Mk.XVI's) from 421 Squadron left at 20:00hrs for the Schwerin area , where a lone Fw190 was seen, and was claimed shot down by three of the Canadian pilots jointly."
Time: 20:30hrs
Date: May 1, 1945
Location: Just north of Schwerin
Who: No. 421 RCAF Fighter Squadron based at B.154-Reinshalen
Aircraft: Spitfire Mk XVI
Pilots:
No.1 Flying Officer Ed Mann aircraft serial no. SM411/Coded AU-E
No.2 Warrant Officer Paul S. Murphy aircraft serial no. SM392/Coded AU-T
No.3 Flight Lieutenant K.L. Langmuir aircraft serial no. SM284/Coded AU-B
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
No. 421 Operational Record Book
National Archives of Canada
Record Group 24
Microfilm C-12295
May 1st Sortie from 20:00hrs to 21:10hrs
Armed Reconnaissance - Schwerin Area (Germany)
On this operation 33 M.F.T. were destroyed and 10 damaged. One FW190 destroyed shared by F/L K.W. Langmuir, F/O Ed H. Mann (AU-E/SM411), and W/O P.S. Murphy. Roads in area T.3550 to T4050 packed with M.F.T (motorized vehicles & tanks) when attacked, explosion force felt 800 feet up. 1 FW190 headed south at 200 feet, sighted and destroyed at 20:30hrs.
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350 Squadron were Spit 14s.
I'm not asking as a reason to lose the Spit 16 btw. I just got curious after going through the 602 and 603 histories. The best bet would probably have to be the Canadians as they had a number of squadrons in Spit XVIs. The Poles did too.
It does point to the increased use of the Spit LFIX and LFXVI in the ground attack role after D-Day with 2 TAF and the lack of targets in the air.
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Sorry forgot to dump the stuff from 350SQN
421 SQN were 16's
IIRC SM411 is on static display in polandFROM: 2nd Tactical Air Force volume three from the Rhine to Victory January to May 1945" Authors: Christopher Shores & Chris Thomas
Page 522
"On their fourth operation of the day , eight Spitfire Mk.IXs (in fact Mk.XVI's) from 421 Squadron left at 20:00hrs for the Schwerin area , where a lone Fw190 was seen, and was claimed shot down by three of the Canadian pilots jointly."
Time: 20:30hrs
Date: May 1, 1945
Location: Just north of Schwerin
Who: No. 421 RCAF Fighter Squadron based at B.154-Reinshalen
Aircraft: Spitfire Mk XVI
Pilots:
No.1 Flying Officer Ed Mann aircraft serial no. SM411/Coded AU-E
No.2 Warrant Officer Paul S. Murphy aircraft serial no. SM392/Coded AU-T
No.3 Flight Lieutenant K.L. Langmuir aircraft serial no. SM284/Coded AU-B
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
No. 421 Operational Record Book
National Archives of Canada
Record Group 24
Microfilm C-12295
May 1st Sortie from 20:00hrs to 21:10hrs
Armed Reconnaissance - Schwerin Area (Germany)
On this operation 33 M.F.T. were destroyed and 10 damaged. One FW190 destroyed shared by F/L K.W. Langmuir, F/O Ed H. Mann (AU-E/SM411), and W/O P.S. Murphy. Roads in area T.3550 to T4050 packed with M.F.T (motorized vehicles & tanks) when attacked, explosion force felt 800 feet up. 1 FW190 headed south at 200 feet, sighted and destroyed at 20:30hrs.
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Coincidence... or something more?
Hans: Ze Indians haf ziz airquaft zat iz like UFO!
Herman: Ja, I haf zeen it. Retainz E as zo ze gravity und atmozphere did not exist!
Hans: Vat do ve do!?!?!
Herman: Im not going up zer again.
Hans: Focke it. Neizer am I. I sink ve should surrender.
Herman: Ja. I haf zwei kinders! Make ze call...
:::ringringring:::
Hitler: ...Allo?
too funny, i like.....I git ah 109g14 and he getta 16 and everyone'ahhh knoooo ahhh spit16'zzz rrrrrrr forrrraaa gurls (best borat voice)
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dont see why it would cause a whine in MW,after all it would just be another dead spit tumbling to the ground :D
:rofl ... ain't it the truth.
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dont see why it would cause a whine in MW,after all it would just be another dead spit tumbling to the ground :D
Hello Cobia,
I am sure you could shoot one down, most of us can. My point is that there always seems to be something for folks to whine about in this game. I myself enjoy the living heck out of this game, and I appreciate it. I guarantee ya, that this would cause a whinefest like you have never seen from the MW crowd if it became more than hypothetical board discussion.
:salute
Way
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If you like your plane to get kills for you then yes it is.....just like the F4U.
:devil
this is a bit over the top...I cant remember my 16 ever flying itself :rolleyes:
when I am in a 16 it is an insanely deadly plane(just wish I could hit better in it), when I fight 16's they die soooooo easy, why is that so?
because The plane is a very small portion of what it is about, the stick is who you fight, not the damn plane, the plane is just a tool, yes some are better then others, and some are better at this or that, but it really does come down to who is flying the said plane. :aok
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too funny, i like.....I git ah 109g14 and he getta 16 and everyone'ahhh knoooo ahhh spit16'zzz rrrrrrr forrrraaa gurls (best borat voice)
Wah Wah Wee Wah!! :D
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when I fight 16's they die soooooo easy, why is that so?
You too ? ... I've been trying to figure that out also ... after all, they are such 'monsters' of the sky.
When I see a Spit 16 I say ... no sweat ... I see a Spit V I say ... rut roh !!!
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Hello Cobia,
I am sure you could shoot one down, most of us can. My point is that there always seems to be something for folks to whine about in this game. I myself enjoy the living heck out of this game, and I appreciate it. I guarantee ya, that this would cause a whinefest like you have never seen from the MW crowd if it became more than hypothetical board discussion.
:salute
Way
MW has the best planeset match of all the MAs,I think it would fit in quiet well. it would be more welcomed then whined about,IMO
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"It's the pilot, not the plane." is uttered most by above average to uber sticks. If I (a mediocre plebe) encounters a similarly skilled fellow operating a Rainbow 16, that statement no longer applies. F4Us are also very dangerous planes (though they take some ammount of skill).
It's more than just the pilot. Otherwise, we would see a long procession of double digit kills in P-40Bs landed in the text buffer.
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"It's the pilot, not the plane." is uttered most by above average to uber sticks. If I (a mediocre plebe) encounters a similarly skilled fellow operating a Rainbow 16, that statement no longer applies. F4Us are also very dangerous planes (though they take some ammount of skill).
It's more than just the pilot. Otherwise, we would see a long procession of double digit kills in P-40Bs landed in the text buffer.
alot of double didgit sorties are done with uber highspeed rides flown by timid pilots who only care about rank. kinda hard to run in a p40 :rolleyes:
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alot of double didgit sorties are done with uber highspeed rides flown by timid pilots who only care about rank. kinda hard to run in a p40 :rolleyes:
But I thought it was the pilot, not the plane? ;)
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Lets compromise on the spit16.
HiTech adds a clipped wing Spitfire L.F Mk VB and reduce the perk on the spit14 to 4 or eliminates it entirely.
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Actually the lack of evidence of Spit XVI in actual combat may not be a reason to remove it. It may give justification for adding the Gloster Meteor. :D
Good thinking sir :aok
froger
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Lets compromise on the spit16.
HiTech adds a clipped wing Spitfire L.F Mk VB and reduce the perk on the spit14 to 4 or eliminates it entirely.
Eliminates the spit14, or the perk?
Just askin' :devil
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good find banzzai :aok
SM284 LFXVI CBAF M266 8MU 28-10-44 421S 28-12-44 412S 24-5-45 402S 23-6-45 to 6637M at 612S 10-2-49
SM392 LFXVI M266 9MU 9-11-44 421S 28-12-44 83GSU 26-7-45 SOC 12-9-45
SM411 LFXVIe M266 MU 19-11-44 ? 421S 83GSU 103FRS 3CAACU BoB film later 7242M Extant Poland
interestingly Ed Mann's bird was used in the BoB film :)
(http://www.sonsofdamien.co.uk/images/spit-sm411-4.jpg)
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If I (a mediocre plebe) encounters a similarly skilled fellow operating a Rainbow 16, that statement no longer applies.
But that is not what the typical "Perk the Spit 16" debate is about.
It is commonly said that the plane is sooooo good that a 2 weeker can go around killing people with impunity which is total horse hockey, never the less that is the argument brought forth.
"Perk the Spit 16" threads are usually started by those who consistently get their arse handed to them by a Spit 16 and think that by perking the Spit 16, they won't have to deal with it anymore ... what they don't realize is that if it is perked, they will be back here asking to "Perk the Spit 8" (which is just about as deadly as the Spit 16) or maybe the "Perk the La-7" threads will become common again.
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...what they don't realize is that if it is perked, they will be back here asking to "Perk the Spit 8" (which is just about as deadly as the Spit 16).
Disagree.
The 8 has the same weakness of all standard-wing Spitfires; poor rate of roll. That can be exploited.
The 16 has no weakness to exploit. It does everything at 95%. That's the issue.
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Disagree.
The 8 has the same weakness of all standard-wing Spitfires; poor rate of roll. That can be exploited.
Quoted for truth. The 8 suffers severely in high speed dives as far as mushiness of controls. It requires a lot more rudder and throttle input to get the most out of her.
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I disagree... 8 is every bit just as lethal. Even has better turn rate. Nobody's using them for their rate of roll unless they're stick stirring these days.
As for high-speed dives, they seem to handle about the same to me. They have nearly identical power curves, rates of climbs, turn rates, killing ability.
The 8 actually has the upper hand, as far as manuverability AND range go, so it's probably the more lethal option when it comes down to it.
Can't discuss perking the 16 without discussing it on the 8.
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I disagree... 8 is every bit just as lethal. Even has better turn rate. Nobody's using them for their rate of roll unless they're stick stirring these days.
As for high-speed dives, they seem to handle about the same to me. They have nearly identical power curves, rates of climbs, turn rates, killing ability.
The 8 actually has the upper hand, as far as manuverability AND range go, so it's probably the more lethal option when it comes down to it.
Can't discuss perking the 16 without discussing it on the 8.
First let me preface my argument with the fact that I prefer the 8 over the 16, and think that perking either is a bad idea. I agree in it's element the 8 is a better bird.
The only thing I disagree with you on Krusty is the high speed dive. Nose down sometime in both planes, and try to turn/roll out of the dive. The 16 can easily roll out of a dive at high speed, where an 8 really does have a sluggish control surfaces at high speed. Like flying through molasses Sir. The 16 simply recovers better in a high speed dive.
:salute
Way
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Disagree.
The 8 has the same weakness of all standard-wing Spitfires; poor rate of roll. That can be exploited.
The 16 has no weakness to exploit. It does everything at 95%. That's the issue.
I said ... "which is just about as deadly as the Spit 16" ... key word "about".
I spent years in the Spit V and for the life of me, I don't remember it's roll rate as being poor ... at least for the type of fights I got into ... it was it's roll rate that won many fights for me.
I didn't, and still don't fight in a Spit 5/8/9 at "high speed" ... that's not it's game. What I do is get them to bring their speed down into the Spit 5/8/9's sweet spot and that's when they pay the price.
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The only thing I disagree with you on Krusty is the high speed dive. Nose down sometime in both planes, and try to turn/roll out of the dive. The 16 can easily roll out of a dive at high speed, where an 8 really does have a sluggish control surfaces at high speed. Like flying through molasses Sir. The 16 simply recovers better in a high speed dive.
But that was the impetus for developing the "clipped wing" ... so yeah ... you can't compare, but on the other hand, you shouldn't be doing high speed pursuits or high speed dogfighting in a Spit 5/8/9 against planes that are better suited for that type of engagement.
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how did this turn into another perk/moan about the XVI thread? :rolleyes:
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how did this turn into another perk/moan about the XVI thread? :rolleyes:
:rofl Don't all spitfire threads.
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Notice I was not advocating a perk in this thread. I was trying to keep my thoughts out of that topic. I was just stating that (logically) you can't separate the two plane types if you start talking about perking 1, the other, or neither. They are, essentially, the same plane with minor variations.
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Lets compromise on the spit16.
HiTech adds a clipped wing Spitfire L.F Mk VB and reduce the perk on the spit14 to 4 or eliminates it entirely.
OOOPSies.....sorry ment eliminate the spit14 perk entirely. UNPerk the spit14 in the vernaculare.....
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perk der spitensexteen! It b ub3r! how i knowz this? cuz i gots ramtarted by a B-38 2day & it dead & i lifed to lanz me killz even tho both of us pee-lots got collideds.
:neener:
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I figured as much bustr just being facetious. :devil
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Damn someone beat me too it...
Found another one though
A Spitfire XVI (TB752/KH-Z) of No 403 Sqn RCAF claimed a Bf109 on April 21 1945 near Schnackenburg. Apparently that airframe went on to claim a 2nd and 3rd victory before the end of the war. This is according to Osprey Publishing's American Spitfire Aces.
http://books.google.com/books?id=mLJcA6hGWvkC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=Spitfire+XVI+victory+claim&source=bl&ots=0QmnqmAx5T&sig=UVR3mdPw3YbqmHHGkfAHa7mUeKs&hl=en&ei=9FiiS9-eC4u-sgPU-MCMBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Spitfire%20XVI%20victory%20claim&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=mLJcA6hGWvkC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=Spitfire+XVI+victory+claim&source=bl&ots=0QmnqmAx5T&sig=UVR3mdPw3YbqmHHGkfAHa7mUeKs&hl=en&ei=9FiiS9-eC4u-sgPU-MCMBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Spitfire%20XVI%20victory%20claim&f=false)
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But that was the impetus for developing the "clipped wing" ... so yeah ... you can't compare, but on the other hand, you shouldn't be doing high speed pursuits or high speed dogfighting in a Spit 5/8/9 against planes that are better suited for that type of engagement.
I concur Slapshot. Bringing the cons into your zone of best performance is the best way to fight the 8. Darn my squaddies but there is always one of them that gets in deep and I have to dive my Spit 8 several thousand feet to help em out. :lol That is when you see the above mentioned high speed sluggy behavior.
:salute
Way
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how did this turn into another perk/moan about the XVI thread? :rolleyes:
No clue. I was just asking if anyone could find any documented XVI air to air kills. I couldn't. I knew that it was employed in the ground attack role with 2 TAF as was the LFIXe. I was just curious as if there were any air to air, it had to be few as the Luftwaffe had just about disappeared by that time.
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If you like your plane to get kills for you then yes it is.....just like the F4U.
Last time I checked, none of the planes in the game maneuver or fire the guns without pilot input.
ack-ack
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Coincidence... or something more?
Hans: Ze Indians haf ziz airquaft zat iz like UFO!
Herman: Ja, I haf zeen it. Retainz E as zo ze gravity und atmozphere did not exist!
Hans: Vat do ve do!?!?!
Herman: Im not going up zer again.
Hans: Focke it. Neizer am I. I sink ve should surrender.
Herman: Ja. I haf zwei kinders! Make ze call...
:::ringringring:::
Hitler: ...Allo?
That is just funny chit :aok
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did the spit16 kill any luffwafen guys or not? i'm comfused :headscratch:
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did the spit16 kill any luffwafen guys or not? i'm comfused :headscratch:
Not many, due to lack of targets. It does appear some Canadian Spit XVI pilots did shoot down some of the rarely seen Luftwaffe types however.
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Not many, due to lack of targets. It does appear some Canadian Spit XVI pilots did shoot down some of the rarely seen Luftwaffe types however.
ok thnx. that's what i've got out of this so far too. Seems the 14 seen more action than 16 did. That surprises me. I always thought the spit14 came after the spixteen.
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ok thnx. that's what i've got out of this so far too. Seems the 14 seen more action than 16 did. That surprises me. I always thought the spit14 came after the spixteen.
Spit XIV was there before the XVI. While the XVI was tasked with ground attack, the XIVs that went to the continent were used in the air to air role so they found more things to shoot at.
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I concur Slapshot. Bringing the cons into your zone of best performance is the best way to fight the 8. Darn my squaddies but there is always one of them that gets in deep and I have to dive my Spit 8 several thousand feet to help em out. :lol That is when you see the above mentioned high speed sluggy behavior.
:salute
Way
I hear ya.
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No clue. I was just asking if anyone could find any documented XVI air to air kills. I couldn't. I knew that it was employed in the ground attack role with 2 TAF as was the LFIXe. I was just curious as if there were any air to air, it had to be few as the Luftwaffe had just about disappeared by that time.
Oh Danny-Boy ... you could have bet the ranch that it would have come to ... "Perk the Spit 16".
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"Actually the lack of evidence of (insert name of aircraft deployed to squadrons by VJ
day) in actual combat may not be a reason to remove it. "
IMO the folks in the community who made this "line in the sand" as to what should
or should not be modeled in AH is an absolute crock.
If it was deployed to squadrons for use, such as the sweet Spixteen, then be grateful
someone modeled it for your (your = you, the reader, not anyone in particular) use online.
The line in the sand was "it saw combat" and at some point some people claimed it was "saw air to air combat" in order to argue against certain airframes. It was just combat though, doesn't matter what kind of combat.
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If you like your plane to get kills for you then yes it is.....just like the F4U.
:devil
Oh my god you didn't just compare the p**fire16 to any F4U did you???? Please the F4U takes more skill than any dweeby spitfire (reference would be for any Spitfire over the Spitfire I). Real cartoon airplane drivers fly the Corsair....
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F4U is easier than the Spitfire.
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F4U is easier than the Spitfire.
hmmmmm, I've always thought the Spitfire was more like the bubble-headed chick in the hottest new urban lounge waiting to be picked-up, not a real challenge to do and lots of guys have done it with her already; whereas the F4u is more like the independent Harley riding chick at the local biker dive bar, not hard to pick-up but you definitely need to impress her to have half a chance.
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Oh my god you didn't just compare the p**fire16 to any F4U did you???? Please the F4U takes more skill than any dweeby spitfire (reference would be for any Spitfire over the Spitfire I). Real cartoon airplane drivers fly the Corsair....
Ahh Mk XIV can be a nasty wench to master... just saying
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Ahh Mk XIV can be a nasty wench to master... just saying
nasty wench to master? try wrestling an alligator if ur under 20k
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hmmmmm, I've always thought the Spitfire was more like the bubble-headed chick in the hottest new urban lounge waiting to be picked-up, not a real challenge to do and lots of guys have done it with her already; whereas the F4u is more like the independent Harley riding chick at the local biker dive bar, not hard to pick-up but you definitely need to impress her to have half a chance.
Nope, the F4U is the strung out on meth chick and the the Spitfire is the classy lady who is sure of herself. :P
( FYI, I am joking, they are both great warbirds and I like them as they are)
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Nope, the F4U is the strung out on meth chick and the the Spitfire is the classy lady who is sure of herself. :P
( FYI, I am joking, they are both great warbirds and I like them as they are)
Strung out on meth? Naw more like the crazy chick that will do your brains out , then burn your house down, because you didn't send flowers fast enough.
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I disagree... 8 is every bit just as lethal. Even has better turn rate. Nobody's using them for their rate of roll unless they're stick stirring these days.
As for high-speed dives, they seem to handle about the same to me. They have nearly identical power curves, rates of climbs, turn rates, killing ability.
The 8 actually has the upper hand, as far as manuverability AND range go, so it's probably the more lethal option when it comes down to it.
Can't discuss perking the 16 without discussing it on the 8.
nope,
me thinks da 16 does a whole lot more and will (because of roll rate) OM the 8 all day long when flown corectly. far as the perk thing goes, i believe there are plenty of older birds (non perked) that if flown right will bust up the 8/16 party quite well.
guess it all depends on where yer at and how yer flyin.
im just sayin
froger
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hmmmmm, I've always thought the Spitfire was more like the bubble-headed chick in the hottest new urban lounge waiting to be picked-up, not a real challenge to do and lots of guys have done it with her already; whereas the F4u is more like the independent Harley riding chick at the local biker dive bar, not hard to pick-up but you definitely need to impress her to have half a chance.
what do you mean by impress her....like... meth n tequila ?
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Oh Danny-Boy ... you could have bet the ranch that it would have come to ... "Perk the Spit 16".
Yeah, it was dumb of me. I got caught up in the 602-603 histories and the question just hit me so I figured I'd throw it out there.
Maybe the best thing to do is beg HTC to rename it the Spitfire LFIXe and be done with it. For those of us who suggested using the designation Spitfire XVIe instead just for variety apologize again to HTC for the inconvenience and the lack of Spitfire history knowledge shown by the majority of Aces High users.
And no this was never meant to be a perk the XVI thread. Just quit whining about em and shoot em down. It's just not that hard.
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Yeah, it was dumb of me. I got caught up in the 602-603 histories and the question just hit me so I figured I'd throw it out there.
Maybe the best thing to do is beg HTC to rename it the Spitfire LFIXe and be done with it. For those of us who suggested using the designation Spitfire XVIe instead just for variety apologize again to HTC for the inconvenience and the lack of Spitfire history knowledge shown by the majority of Aces High users.
And no this was never meant to be a perk the XVI thread. Just quit whining about em and shoot em down. It's just not that hard.
Sure if you don't mind leaving little pieces of your plane all over the place.. Uh, oh... well... never mind :D :bolt:
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To continue in this thread you need to identify the Spitfires correctly
What type Spitfire is this one ?
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spit2-1.jpg)
What type of Spitfire is this?
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/PT961.jpg)
How bout this Spitfire?
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spitfire1.jpg)
And this one?
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spitfire2.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spitfire3.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spitfire4.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/onemore.jpg)
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#1 is an LF.IXe or XVI.
#2 is an LF.IX....I think
#3 is most likely an LF.IXe
#4 is an LF.IX
#5 is an LF.IX (I don't recall any XVI's going to the Russians)
#6 is an LF.IX
#7 is an VIII, most likely an LF
To be perfectly honest, I don't know of any way to tell an LF.IXe from a Mk XVI just by looking at it. I'd have to look up serial numbers to be sure. #7 was particularly easy though.
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You can't tell an XVI from an IX without knowing the serial ranges. That's the point. Same bird.
1 is a Full span wing Spitfire LFXVIe
2 is a clipped wing Spitfire LFIXe
3 Is a full span wing Spitfire LFIXe
4 is a clipped wing Spitfire LFXVIe
5 is a clipped wing Spitfire LFIXe
6 is a full span wing Spitfire LFIXe
7 is a clipped wing Spitfire LFVIII
THey all pretty much look the same and perform the same as they are all using the same engine, either the Rolls Merlin 66 or the Packard Merlin 266
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With all those mechanics all over it.....I thought the first one was a broken one? :bolt:
:D
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With all those mechanics all over it.....I thought the first one was a broken one? :bolt:
:D
Me too ... and that second Spit ... why would they attach a wind sock to it ? ... :rolleyes:
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I have only been around this game since it started,and I can guarantee you if you put the right pilot in any plane he could kill a spixteen with ease.Match up two equally good pilots in spixteens,and you would have a heck of a fight!I try to fly a different plane every flight,just my way of having fun.When I do fly a spixteen,it sure is a sweet ride,but I can easily find a way to get dispatched.My hats off to you gentlemen that have mastered this game.There is a number of planes in this sim that didn't put up big numbers, many of them weren't made in large quantities.This is a game,and the next time your shot down by a Me 163,turning like a Zeke,bear that in mind.Mr.Hitech said"this game is is about pissing the other guy off."He has succeeded very well.
ID
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the lack of Spitfire history knowledge shown by the majority of Aces High users.
That burns. Yes it does.
Spitfire might have been a good airplane if it had had drop tanks.
- oldman
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Yeah, it was dumb of me. I got caught up in the 602-603 histories and the question just hit me so I figured I'd throw it out there.
Sorry, I didn't mean to get the snowball rolling. I truly meant it in jest!
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Me too ... and that second Spit ... why would they attach a wind sock to it ? ... :rolleyes:
Did you see the third picture? It's got a keg delivery system.
ack-ack
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Next thing ya know they will be picking Sheep up with one. :rofl
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Is this some ploy to get the Spit16 removed and to put the Beau in it's place?
Just kidding. ;)
yes remove the 16 and add the 7
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How many Spitfire variations were there? And why were there so many? It seems like the Brits made 2 or 3 different ones for every year of the war.
Was there a Spit 4,6 or 15? Maybe someone could provide a link to some Spitfire information. :headscratch:
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How many Spitfire variations were there? And why were there so many? It seems like the Brits made 2 or 3 different ones for every year of the war.
Was there a Spit 4,6 or 15? Maybe someone could provide a link to some Spitfire information. :headscratch:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spittest.html :aok
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Spitfire IV was the Griffon development mule. British mark designations are a useful way to learn Roman numerals. Give it a crack.
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Just what i was looking for. Thank you Bronk :salute
British mark designations are a useful way to learn Roman numerals. Give it a crack.
:lol X-IV
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Just what i was looking for. Thank you Bronk :salute
Welcome, just passing what was given to me.
Pay close attention to the Mk XII. :noid
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Yeah TB mentioned that one. That's what got me to thinking about it. :aok
Good gun package and if i'm reading it right, DTs were a option too.
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uptown,
Also keep in mind that not all mark numbers ended up getting used. For example, the Mk IV was reserved for the redesigned Griffon Spitfire that ended up using Mk.21 and on.
This is true of other aircraft at times as well. The A6M4 designation was reserved for the Zero with a turbocharged engine that never ended up happening.
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Just what i was looking for. Thank you Bronk :salute :lol X-IV
Not following you. The Spitfire Mark IV (4) was the Griffon development mule. Which part of that don't you get?
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Not following you. The Spitfire Mark IV (4) was the Griffon development mule. Which part of that don't you get?
I'm sorry. I thought you were poking at me about not using Roman numerials. Hence the X-IV---> 10-4, rgr, ok then.....
:lol
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uptown,
Also keep in mind that not all mark numbers ended up getting used. For example, the Mk IV was reserved for the redesigned Griffon Spitfire that ended up using Mk.21 and on.
This is true of other aircraft at times as well. The A6M4 designation was reserved for the Zero with a turbocharged engine that never ended up happening.
Actually that's not completely accurate on the Spitfire IV. DP845 and DP851 were initially designated Mk IV. DP845 ended up becoming the prototype Spitfire XII with the single stage Griffon IIB. DP851 ended up with the two stage Griffon testing
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the XIV was the first two stage griffon though? :headscratch: yes the VII was the first griffon
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the XIV was the first two stage griffon though? :headscratch: yes the VII was the first griffon
The Spitfire IV was the first Griffon Spit used for testing. The first production Griffon Spitfire was the XII. DP845 the first IV was redesignated Spitfire XII. The Spitfire XIV was the first production two stage Griffon Spit. DP851, the second Spitfire IV was used for development testing of the two stage Griffon Spit.
The VII was a high alt Merlin 70 engined, extended wing, pressurized cockpit version of the Spitfire, basically a mix of the IX and VIII as it didn't have the tropicalization of the VIII, which was like the initial Spitfire IX, but did have the pointed tail and retractable tail wheel as well as the shorter span ailerons of the VIII.
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i got so mixed up in what i said there its not funny... i meant the XII not the VII. whatever though you explained it
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I said ... "which is just about as deadly as the Spit 16" ... key word "about".
I spent years in the Spit V and for the life of me, I don't remember it's roll rate as being poor ... at least for the type of fights I got into ... it was it's roll rate that won many fights for me.
Standing on "about" isn't exactly a muscular retort. My opinion of "deadly" is subjective. Your opinion of "deadly" is subjective.
The 16's superiority in rate of roll, when compared to all other Spitfires, is not subjective.
Take your Spit 5 up for a few sorties and then take a Spit 16 up for a few sorties. You tell me which one can change direction on the blink of an eye.
Don't mistakenly construe my argument to be a whine. Ive been around here far too long to waste my time putting any real effort into arguing this subject with perk/unperk as the point of interest.
The fact of the matter is simple; whereas every other airplane in the game has at *least* one weakness - something that it is just God-awful at performing - the Spitfire 16 does not.
Climb, dive, E-retention, initial turn, sustained turn, weapons package, visibility, rate of roll.
The 16 is the *only* cartoon aircraft in the game which allows you to check "All of the above."
The guy behind the monitor is the only potential weakness and, frankly speaking, if you have been playing for more than about six months, there is really no excuse for being killed in one.
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The Spitfire IV was the first Griffon Spit used for testing. The first production Griffon Spitfire was the XII. DP845 the first IV was redesignated Spitfire XII. The Spitfire XIV was the first production two stage Griffon Spit. DP851, the second Spitfire IV was used for development testing of the two stage Griffon Spit.
The VII was a high alt Merlin 70 engined, extended wing, pressurized cockpit version of the Spitfire, basically a mix of the IX and VIII as it didn't have the tropicalization of the VIII, which was like the initial Spitfire IX, but did have the pointed tail and retractable tail wheel as well as the shorter span ailerons of the VIII.
I wonder why HTC went with the Spitfire IV instead of the Spitfire XII? It would seem logical to me that they'd with the production model instead of the testing model.
Also Dan, what do you mean by tropicalization.
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Standing on "about" isn't exactly a muscular retort.
I wasn't meant to "muscular" ... it is what it is ... an adverb ...
S: (adv) approximately, about, close to, just about, some, roughly, more or less, around, or so
I too have been around here far too long ... and have plenty of seat time in Spits so I really don't need to fly a few sorties to know what each is capable of. I wasn't refuting the 16's roll rate at speed, as a matter of fact I said that was it's express intent with the clipped wings, and on the other hand, I said that any of the other Spits also have excellent roll rates within their fight envelope, which is not at high speed ... Spit 1/5/8/9 weren't meant to fight in high speed fights so trying to compare the 16's roll rate at speed to those Spits is out of context.
The guy behind the monitor is the only potential weakness and, frankly speaking, if you have been playing for more than about six months, there is really no excuse for being killed in one.
Yet they keep on dieing with regularity with many degrees of expertise behind the stick and have yet to prove that they can change the face of dog fighting in the MA.
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"have yet to prove they change the face of dogfighting in the MA?"
Wth?
That's like saying "Air has yet to be proven to change the face of life on Earth"
The spit8/16 combo is THE most commonly used plane in the game (together they outnumber the P-51, and they are essentially the same plane. Even considering the Spit16 by itself, it's just a hair under the P-51 use and most P-51s are also being used to avoid fights or to bomb things which isn't as much the case with the Spitties).
That's like saying "Oh, yeah, the Chog was perked because even with the limited planeset it was taking up 20% of all the kills in the arenas and every fight had way too many of them, but it has yet to be proven that they effected the face of dogfighting in the MAs."
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I wasn't meant to "muscular" ... it is what it is ... an adverb ...
S: (adv) approximately, about, close to, just about, some, roughly, more or less, around, or so
I too have been around here far too long ... and have plenty of seat time in Spits so I really don't need to fly a few sorties to know what each is capable of. I wasn't refuting the 16's roll rate at speed, as a matter of fact I said that was it's express intent with the clipped wings, and on the other hand, I said that any of the other Spits also have excellent roll rates within their fight envelope, which is not at high speed ... Spit 1/5/8/9 weren't meant to fight in high speed fights so trying to compare the 16's roll rate at speed to those Spits is out of context.
Yet they keep on dieing with regularity with many degrees of expertise behind the stick and have yet to prove that they can change the face of dog fighting in the MA.
Slap, youre a good guy - why are you getting lost in semantics and quoting Dictionary.com instead of engaging in discussion?
What gives?
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Slap, youre a good guy - why are you getting lost in semantics and quoting Dictionary.com instead of engaging in discussion?
What gives?
Was wondering the same when you decided to comment on my use of 'about' ... I guess my use of 'about' was too vague ?
And ... your right ... I am a good guy ... ;)
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I wonder why HTC went with the Spitfire IV instead of the Spitfire XII? It would seem logical to me that they'd with the production model instead of the testing model.
Also Dan, what do you mean by tropicalization.
HTC modeled the Spitfire XIV which is the two stage Griffon production model.
Tropicalized Spits had the bigger filter under the nose. All the two stage Merlin models in AH have that tropical intake. The Spit IX didn't have it initially but it was added later on in particular when they moved to the continent as the dust was such a problem. Spits that were designated to only be based in England were not required to have tropicalization so the Spit XII as an example never had it.
Any based outside of England had the larger intake filter added so Desert birds, MTO based, CBI, PTO based birds all had them.
This is a Spitfire VII based out of England. Note the small intake under the nose. Because Spit VIIs were all based in England, they never were tropicalized. It's essentially a pressurized Spitfire VIII for high alt work.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/33.jpg)
This is an RAAF Spitfire VIII of 79 Squadron out of the Pacific. Note the larger tropical filter under the nose. Any Spit IX, VIII that were based outside England had this added.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Newman79.jpg)
The first Spits to be tropicalized were Spit Vs that were sent to Malta.
Below are some England based Spitfire Vc of 91`Squadron. Note the small intake under the nose.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/oxy2.jpg)
This is a tropicalized Spitfire Vc in the MTO. Note the big filter. It was quite the performance hit and not real popular.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/4CannonSpitVc-1.jpg)
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Standing on "about" isn't exactly a muscular retort. My opinion of "deadly" is subjective. Your opinion of "deadly" is subjective.
The 16's superiority in rate of roll, when compared to all other Spitfires, is not subjective.
Take your Spit 5 up for a few sorties and then take a Spit 16 up for a few sorties. You tell me which one can change direction on the blink of an eye.
Don't mistakenly construe my argument to be a whine. Ive been around here far too long to waste my time putting any real effort into arguing this subject with perk/unperk as the point of interest.
The fact of the matter is simple; whereas every other airplane in the game has at *least* one weakness - something that it is just God-awful at performing - the Spitfire 16 does not.
Climb, dive, E-retention, initial turn, sustained turn, weapons package, visibility, rate of roll.
The 16 is the *only* cartoon aircraft in the game which allows you to check "All of the above."
The guy behind the monitor is the only potential weakness and, frankly speaking, if you have been playing for more than about six months, there is really no excuse for being killed in one.
If a putz in a rusty P38G can kill em, they just can't be that big of a deal :)
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HTC modeled the Spitfire XIV which is the two stage Griffon production model.
Tropicalized Spits had the bigger filter under the nose. All the two stage Merlin models in AH have that tropical intake. The Spit IX didn't have it initially but it was added later on in particular when they moved to the continent as the dust was such a problem. Spits that were designated to only be based in England were not required to have tropicalization so the Spit XII as an example never had it.
Any based outside of England had the larger intake filter added so Desert birds, MTO based, CBI, PTO based birds all had them.
This is a Spitfire VII based out of England. Note the small intake under the nose. Because Spit VIIs were all based in England, they never were tropicalized. It's essentially a pressurized Spitfire VIII for high alt work.
This is a tropicalized Spitfire Vc in the MTO. Note the big filter. It was quite the performance hit and not real popular.
That's a Volkes filter (which thanks to Wikipedia has morphed into "Vokes (sic)" as that is the way it is pronounced.) and many MTO VC's were modified in Egypt by an operational maintenance unit at Aboukir to replace the Volkes with the still bulky, but much more streamlined and efficient "Aboukir" filter.
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#1 is an LF.IXe or XVI.
#2 is an LF.IX....I think
#3 is most likely an LF.IXe
#4 is an LF.IX
#5 is an LF.IX (I don't recall any XVI's going to the Russians)
#6 is an LF.IX
#7 is an VIII, most likely an LF
To be perfectly honest, I don't know of any way to tell an LF.IXe from a Mk XVI just by looking at it. I'd have to look up serial numbers to be sure. #7 was particularly easy though.
Are a couple ways ....sometimes.
XVI's only ever had 4 'spoke' wheels, IX's had 5 and 4 spoke.
XVI's only ever had a pointed broad chord rudder, IX's also had the earlier 'round' rudder.
Plus if Russian they only got V's and LFIXs.
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That's a Volkes filter (which thanks to Wikipedia has morphed into "Vokes (sic)" as that is the way it is pronounced.) and many MTO VC's were modified in Egypt by an operational maintenance unit at Aboukir to replace the Volkes with the still bulky, but much more streamlined and efficient "Aboukir" filter.
Probably using the word 'many' is misleading as the majority of Spitfire Vs continued to use the larger filter in the MTO. The photo shown is a later Vc taken during time in Italy. Don't want folks getting the wrong idea. You know how that goes in AH. I saw one! I saw one! We have to have it! :)
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If you could pick any Spitfire to have in the game, which one would it be, and why?
It'd be interesting to hear from the Brits on their favorite.
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Mk. VIII because one of our RNZAF (attached to RAAF at the time) aces flew it in Burma.
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350 Squadron were Spit 14s.
I'm not asking as a reason to lose the Spit 16 btw. I just got curious after going through the 602 and 603 histories. The best bet would probably have to be the Canadians as they had a number of squadrons in Spit XVIs. The Poles did too.
It does point to the increased use of the Spit LFIX and LFXVI in the ground attack role after D-Day with 2 TAF and the lack of targets in the air.
In fact..421 Squadron was the only Canadian Squadron to equip with the Spitfire MK XVI during the war. They were stood down in December of 1945, and not active again for a few years.
As an interesting side note (to me anyway), I served with 421 Red Indian Squadron from 1986 through 1990 in Baden West Germany. Early 1986 we had a mixed squadron of CF104's and CF18's. By Late summer of that year we were finally fully equipped with the Cf18 and deemed combat ready. Was an exciting time.
cheers,
RTR
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In fact..421 Squadron was the only Canadian Squadron to equip with the Spitfire MK XVI during the war. They were stood down in December of 1945, and not active again for a few years.
As an interesting side note (to me anyway), I served with 421 Red Indian Squadron from 1986 through 1990 in Baden West Germany. Early 1986 we had a mixed squadron of CF104's and CF18's. By Late summer of that year we were finally fully equipped with the Cf18 and deemed combat ready. Was an exciting time.
cheers,
RTR
Gotta be more then just 421. 403 had them for sure before the war ended as well. Not near the books at the moment, but I'm almost sure it's more then those two as well. I'm pretty sure 443 had them as well among others.
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If you could pick any Spitfire to have in the game, which one would it be, and why?
It'd be interesting to hear from the Brits on their favorite.
Mk XII... for the whine. :D
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If you could pick any Spitfire to have in the game, which one would it be, and why?
It'd be interesting to hear from the Brits on their favorite.
Spit XII.
Best bunch of guys I ever met or corresponded with. 41 and 91 squadrons. Getting to pretend to fly a Spit XII and imagine crossing the Channel in the Summer and Fall of 43 to do battle with the Luftwaffe, would be great fun.
And as Bronk mentions, the whines would be enormous :)
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In fact..421 Squadron was the only Canadian Squadron to equip with the Spitfire MK XVI during the war. They were stood down in December of 1945, and not active again for a few years.
As an interesting side note (to me anyway), I served with 421 Red Indian Squadron from 1986 through 1990 in Baden West Germany. Early 1986 we had a mixed squadron of CF104's and CF18's. By Late summer of that year we were finally fully equipped with the Cf18 and deemed combat ready. Was an exciting time.
cheers,
RTR
Just checked. 416 also had Spit 16s. 127 Wing made up of Canadians all had XVIs before the war ended. That was 403, 416 and 421 squadrons RCAF.
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I am not in this circle of thinking just thought I would throw in the picture to make the Spit 16 haters feel better.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/supermarine_spitfire_lf_16e_te176-h.jpg)
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Just checked. 416 also had Spit 16s. 127 Wing made up of Canadians all had XVIs before the war ended. That was 403, 416 and 421 squadrons RCAF.
where did you find that info Guppy?
I'd be interested in reading it, any references I have found state 421 was the only sqn to equip with the XVI.
Funny how we lose historical information in a relatively few short years.
Thanks for the info. :)
cheers,
RTR
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oops..nm Found what I was looking for. Dopey me..
Thanks Guppy.
cheers,
RTR
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Forget the SpitXVI. I say the SpitIX is the way to go just because before the VIII XIV and XVI the IX was the god... and even in AHI the SPIT V was one of the better...
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Thanks Guppy35 for all the Spit info......................... ..............was very informative.
:salute
As for me I favor the Mk IX most, Mk V next then the Mk VIII.
Yes I'm a Spit dweeb! I LOVE Spits.
So there.
:D
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I find it amusing that the Spit16 was usually designed (and used) for the ground attack role vs the air to air role... and yet it is one fo teh the best air to air fighters of AH. I bet the ratio of air to air missions for the Spit16 is at minimum 25 to 1 over the air to ground.
The other ironic thing is the beloved Tempest was limited to the ground attack role in the real deal, but yet is the most feared air to air prop fighter in AH.
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the beloved Tempest was limited to the ground attack role in the real dealfighter in AH.
err ... you might want to check that.
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I find it amusing that the Spit16 was usually designed (and used) for the ground attack role vs the air to air role... and yet it is one fo teh the best air to air fighters of AH. I bet the ratio of air to air missions for the Spit16 is at minimum 25 to 1 over the air to ground.
The other ironic thing is the beloved Tempest was limited to the ground attack role in the real deal, but yet is the most feared air to air prop fighter in AH.
Tempests were used for 'rat catching' and air to air. Rat catching was patrolling the 262 bases. The Spit XIVs and Temps were primarily air to air, although they did do strafing when the opportunity presented itself.
Keep in mind the RAF was running out of air to air targets which is why the Spit IXs and XVIs ended up flying more ground support. They literally had to find something for the Spit squadrons to do.
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If you like your plane to get kills for you then yes it is.....just like the F4U.
:devil
Junky just has a fly in his ear at my Spitty's bushwhacking his KI :devil
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Junky just has a fly in his ear at my Spitty's bushwhacking his KI :devil
lol
-Spektor
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I find it amusing that the Spit16 was usually designed (and used) for the ground attack role vs the air to air role... and yet it is one fo teh the best air to air fighters of AH.
Yeah, but what about spit LFIXe use? Spit16 is a LFIXe with clipped wings. Only difference is the cloned engine made in America rather than UK. The planes were the same as the F4F/FM1 were, same as the P-51B/P-51C were.
Just so happens they lumped the US engined versions into ground attack. Doesn't mean the LFIXe were shunned as fighters, does it?
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Yeah, but what about spit LFIXe use? Spit16 is a LFIXe with clipped wings. Only difference is the cloned engine made in America rather than UK. The planes were the same as the F4F/FM1 were, same as the P-51B/P-51C were.
Just so happens they lumped the US engined versions into ground attack. Doesn't mean the LFIXe were shunned as fighters, does it?
By that stage of the war, yes. It wasn't that the LF.Mk IXe and Mk XVI were not fully air-to-air capable, it was that there weren't enough German aircraft left to warrant using more than the Spit XIVs and Tempests as air-to-air primarily. The ground attack work was "make-work" to give all those Spitfire squadrons something to do.
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Yes, but that shouldn't dictate that the XVI was an "attack craft" by design. Smokingloon seemed to be forcing that distinction into his comment.
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Yes, but that shouldn't dictate that the XVI was an "attack craft" by design. Smokingloon seemed to be forcing that distinction into his comment.
Agreed. I don't think anybody here is under any illusions that the Spitfire made a great attack aircraft, nor did the design have potential as a development platform for a good attack aircraft.
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The other ironic thing is the beloved Tempest was limited to the ground attack role in the real deal, but yet is the most feared air to air prop fighter in AH.
A well flown corsair or 38 is FAR more fearsome than any tempest! Unless you insist on staying 350mph + and that is just boring :aok
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If I could only keep one spit it would be the seafire.
The question I ask the spit haters or haters of any plane(la-7) is, Does the plane win the fight or does the pilot?
Back to the OP Is there a record of kills to loses for the spit 16 that would be intresting to see really for any plane but it seems to pertain to this subject.
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Seafire III with clipped wings and cropped Merlin 55M...or a Spit XII
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Seafire III with clipped wings and cropped Merlin 55M...or a Spit XII AND Vc.
:devil