Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: coyote on February 17, 2001, 11:06:00 PM
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Since I will be comming back to this sim when I get my HOTAS 2000, I wanted to add my 2 cents on additional aircraft.
I would really like to see a P-47M or N. Obviously these would be perk planes in nearly the same class as the Me-262.
Also, Did the Fw-190D-11 ever see combat? That plane looks wicked, but I heard a very small number were ever built--less than 10?
Again, my research is weak at best.
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At least "several dozen" various Fw190 D11,12,13 were deliverd JG26 in early 45, what that exatly means I have no idea. IIRC this info is from some Caldwell book.
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Here's what Mr Baugher has on the D-series Fw-190 D series (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettpi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190d.html)
And quote from that page, for the lazy:
The Fw 190D-10 was an experimental version of the D-9 with an engine-mounted MK 108 cannon and two MG 151 cannon in the wing roots. Only two of these were built.
The Fw 190D-11 was powered by the Jumo 213F with MW 50 boost. The fuselage-mounted guns were eliminated, and there were two MG 151s in the wing roots and two MK 108s in the outer wings. Only seven prototypes were built.
The Fw 190D-12 was a fighter-bomber variant, which differed from the D-9 by having a three-stage supercharged Jumo 213F-1 engine rated at 2060 hp for takeoff mounted in a new, more extensively armored cowling. Armanent was one engine-mounted 30-mm MK 108 cannon and two 20-mm MG 151s in the wing roots. Although primarily a ground-attack plane, the D-12 also made an effective fighter and could attain 453 mph at 37,000 feet when MW 50 boost was used. Production began in March 1945 at the Arado and Fieseler plants, but only a few were delivered.
The D-13 differed from the D-12 by having a Jumo 213EB engine and by having a 20-mm engine-mounted MG 151 cannon in place of the 30-mm MK 108 unit. However, only a couple of prototypes were built.
In the late autumn of 1944, the Technische Amt decided to switch to the Daimler-Benz DB 603 engine for future Fw-190D production. A couple of production Fw 190D-9s were re-engined with the DB 603AE, and during tests one of them clocked 435 mph at 32,800 feet. Plans were made to produce the fighter in series with the DB603E or DB 603LA as the Fw 190D-14 and with the DB 603EB or DB 603G as the Fw 190D-15, but the war ended before these plans could be brought to fruition.
Somewhere between 650 and 700 "Doras" were built before the occupation of Focke-Wulf factories by Allied forces
brought production to an end.
There is an Fw 190D-9 on display at the WPAFB Museum in Dayton, Ohio. An Fw 190D-12 is on display at the Champlin Fighter Museum at Falcon Field, Mesa, Arizona.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was
Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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coyote,
are you aware the HOTAS 2000 wont be coming out for quite a few months?
Just in case (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I don't see the 47M or 47N as perk planes at all (there were a TON more Ns built, and they were only barely slower than the Ms, so' I'd rather see the N.)
They'll be better and far more popular than the current 47s, but I don't see them as being more popular or deadly in the arena than the Niki or CHog.
I don't think, after a couple weeks, you'd see the arena taken over by P-47Ns if it wasn't perked. No cannons, and best performance is not at furball alts.
Remember, those amazing speeds are at high altitudes. Aces High has most of its combat under 15K. People keep seeing the 460 or 470 mph max speed and going "WOW! Perk Plane!"
But that's at 30,000 feet. How many fights in AH at 30,000?
10,000ft. and below either the M or N is SLOWER than a P-51D.
It's sort of funny, you'd think that people that really like P-47s WOULDN'T want the M or N to show up as a perk plane; though I guess there's a conflict between getting a P-47 much better than the ones we have now to fly all the time, and bragging about the uberness of the last models of the P-47 :-)
Again, I don't see the slightest reason why the M or N is a perk plane.
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 02-18-2001).]
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Agreed Torgo!
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Yes, but speed up high is speed down low too. Lancs and B-17's will have to climb to 50k to escape now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) But imo, it'll be faster than a normal Jug down low and they can already do ok there.
-Westy
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I would like to see some earlier models of the Jug. Some of the late C and early D models were actually better for the type of combat seen on AH from what I've seen on some of these's posts. WideWing brought up some points on this in one of the posts. They were the Razorback style hogs just before the bubble tops. They were lighter from what I understand. I see your point Westy but the G-10, because of it's rate of climb and weapons load combo, is IMO a better bomber killer than an M or N and we aren't talking about perking it. Personally I think that one of the major flaws with the perk system is that it doesn't take into account the rarity of the plane. I think that needs to weigh more in to all the planes on AH. I would like to see the common WWII fighters for each side be common and the rare ones be rare. Of course the example being the C-hog. I really want to see the perk rides but I want the standard plane set to reflect common fighter types of late 44 and 45. Not that it's blown out of proportion now but weren't the present Jug's the most common type in late 44 45?
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Torgo,
The P47M & N were seen in fair amount numbers in WWII and as for beeing a perk plane.. Just because most battles are below 20k is not a valid reason for NOT making it a perk plane.
The P47M was the hot-rod of the Thunderbolts and I have read in many books that the P47M was the FASTEST prop driven fighter off WWII that saw action. At the optimal performance altitude of the M and the P51 at its optimal altitude.. the P47M had a higher top speed. Enough of this though..
The real reasons I think the M should be a perk plane as well as the N is the following.
1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Its the ultimate ride for the Jug fanatic
2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Handled great and was damm fast, alo including a few 262 kills.
3 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) There were some cool paint schemes for the M & Ns
My 2 cents.
Gorf
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First off, I want to make clear I'm arguing that a P-47N would be a GREAT plane to add..unperked. I'm not arguing that either the M or N shouldn't be added at all...re-reading this post I have the sneaking suspicion that that's what you think I think :-)
Originally posted by Gorf:
The P47M & N were seen in fair amount numbers in WWII and as for beeing a perk plane.. Just because most battles are below 20k is not a valid reason for NOT making it a perk plane.
The P47M was the hot-rod of the Thunderbolts and I have read in many books that the P47M was the FASTEST prop driven fighter off WWII that saw action.
[/b]
I totally agree the 47M may well have been the fastest prop driven fighter that saw combat in WWII.
My reaction is...yeah, so? Fastest at altitudes in the MA where battles are ridiculously rare.
30,000 feet might as well be Mars in the AH main arena.
And heck, it's even losing a lot of its speed advantages even as high 15,000-20,000 feet over other AC we already have in AH.
Up to 10,000 feet, depending on the exact way AC are modeled in 1.06, there may well be 4-5 or even MORE unperked fighters that are faster.
At the optimal performance altitude of the M and the P51 at its optimal altitude.. the P47M had a higher top speed. Enough of this though
So, again, who cares? The P47 M or N is not going to be a good enough AC under 15,000 feet that half the arena would fly them if they're unperked.
That's why you perk stuff..to avoid one plane taking over the arena. The Tempest would likely have done that unperked. The M or N likely wouldn't.
The real reasons I think the M should be a perk plane as well as the N is the following.
1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Its the ultimate ride for the Jug fanatic
So don't perk it and give them a hot Jug they can fly all the time :-)
2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Handled great and was damm fast, alo including a few 262 kills.
Lots of aircraft got 262 kills, including P-51Ds (currently unperked.) You could kill a 262 with an Mc202 and a little alt if you got it within 10 minutes of taking off :-)
3 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) There were some cool paint schemes for the M & Ns
What does this have to do with it being perked or not?
Ok. WHY do you P-47 lovers WANT these planes to be perked? (And I like the P-47 too :-) I mean, if the Dora comes out perked, the Luftwobbles are gonna overload this board so much it crashes from all the whining and complaining.
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 02-18-2001).]
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Torgo, I don't know who first suggested a perked P-47M-1, but I know I saw it suggested as a perk and went along with that idea due to the following:
- it was the fastest prop plane of the war (I love saying that)
- it was rare, only like 50-100 produced, flown only by the 56th Fighter Group
- climb speeds rivaling the Me109
Now, I admit maybe I may have been unclear on the exact criteria for perk status. You have convincingly argued that the P-47M will not be a world beater below 10,000 (and probably not until 15k or so), as faster, low alt, cannon wielding planes will abound. Thus it will give jug pilots a boost, but it will not unbalance the main arena.
So if arena balance is the primary consideration for perk status, then I strongly agree with you... it should be brought into Aces High unperked. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) The P-47N given it's much larger production and extensive use in the Pacific, and lesser performance compared to the M should absolutely not be perked.
BTW, this is the paintjob the P-47M-1 should have:
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/uns_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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It's going to look a bit silly having a rare 1945 plane like the P47M unperked, and perking relatively common early 44 aircraft like the Spit XIV and Tempest.
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
It's going to look a bit silly having a rare 1945 plane like the P47M unperked, and perking relatively common early 44 aircraft like the Spit XIV and Tempest.
cough F4U1-C Cough
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Fine Nashwan, lets just have the P-47N then. Similar performance to the M as long as they are loaded with the same fuel loads, and they were COMMON.
FYI, I would consider the Spit XIV a fairly rare aircraft myself, there was only what.... something like 650 built? Thats nothing compared to aircraft like the 109G6, F4U-1D, P-51D, P-47C, IL-2, Yak-9D, Ju88A4, B-17G or a whole slew of others.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Sorry RAM I forgot the CHOG.
957 SPit XIVs built, along with another 300 Spit XVIII and 122 Spit 21s. (THAT would make a good perk plane for the RAF, and fit better with the perks being touted for other countries) Add it up and it makes around 1400 Spits of XIV standard or better. That's similar to the number of P47Ns the (much larger) US produced.
The P47N saw combat only in 1945. So far it is the only 1945 plane (other than the CHOG) that is even being mentioned as a non perk aircraft. It jsut doesn't fit with the rest of the planeset.
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1,816 P-47N out of 15,000+ Thunderbolts produced, seeing combat only in 1945 escorting B-29's to Japan is COMMON?
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Numbers made is irellivent to perk status or not.
Thinking that the 47Ns lack of Uberness at 8k makes a general lack of Uberness is pretty narrow minded. Like all planes I think that it should be introduced to the MA non perk. But I would be really supprised if a bigger winged 50mph faster P47 would not end up perked.
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Juzz, oh and 957 out of 21,200 + is so much more representative?
Nashwan, have you forgotten the second favorite whipping boy of AH that quickly? The N1K2 production was almost entirely in 1945.
Personally, I think we will get the P-47N and it will be perked.
It just irks me when people complain about "low production non-representative dweeb planes" but then in the same breath go on to ask for the Spit XIV, Fw190D9, or the Me109K4, all of which fall into the same category with production numbers less than 1,000 themselves.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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No it's not, and I never said it was, did I?
PS: Why ask for the Me 109K-4? It's been in the planeset from Day 1...
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It's sort of funny, you'd think that people that really like P-47s WOULDN'T want the M or N to show up as a perk plane; though I guess there's a conflict between getting a P-47 much better than the ones we have now to fly all the time, and bragging about the uberness of the last models of the P-47 :-)
Hey, I'm EZ, I'll settle for it just showing up, perk or not! :-)
Oh yea, anyone know the climb rate on the M or N? I know the XP-47J was over 4k/min up to and above 20,000 feet.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Juzz, oh and 957 out of 21,200 + is so much more representative?
Nashwan, have you forgotten the second favorite whipping boy of AH that quickly? The N1K2 production was almost entirely in 1945.
Personally, I think we will get the P-47N and it will be perked.
It just irks me when people complain about "low production non-representative dweeb planes" but then in the same breath go on to ask for the Spit XIV, Fw190D9, or the Me109K4, all of which fall into the same category with production numbers less than 1,000 themselves.
Yep. That's why I think the perk calculation should be based on a combination of rarity and performance. Rare in my opinion is around 3,000 or less. Considering they made an estimated 35,000 Bf 109's I would say that's fair. That might mean perking planes that are already in the MA. I'm sure the F4U-C should be perked. I read on one of these posts that there were only 200 C-hog's made so I would call it rare. The production total of the N1K's I have is 1,435. My figures show that there were 3,382 of all types of Ki-84's produced so if the N1K is in the MA unperked the Ki-84's certainly should be. I consider them rare and perkable. That doesn't mean C-hog should be an expensive perk. It's rate of climb, top speed and maneuverability aren't super extraordinary it's just rare. The N1K and Ki-84 are getting into the class of both rare and extraordinary performance. Planes like the Tempest, P-47M, P-51H, F8F, La-7, Fw190D-9, Me262 etc fall into perkable because of a combination of varying degrees of rarity and extraordinary performance. Just weigh that into the expense of the plane. It doesn't matter that some perform better at higher alt they were better performers. They don't represent the "norm" in their type in late 44-45. It's just my opinion. I know it wont be implemented so there is no reason for any of you to go into a panic. I don't consult for HT. I always love it when I post something like this and I get people that act like it will be implemented tomorrow or something. It's so funny. I'm certainly open to opinion's.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Well, it doesn't matter what WE think is a perk; it's what HTC thinks is a perk.
And it's pretty clear that size of production run and time of introduction are irrelevant to them.
All they care about is whether a given aircraft would take over the arena. (Of course, the defination of "take over" is another whole kettle of fish.)
The Spit XIV or Tempest would likely "take over" the arena.
I believe the P-47M or N would not.
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"The N1K2 production was almost entirely in 1945."
I wonder how many LWers were flying the 109F-4 in 1945....
It's really funny how the whole thing gets twisted and beaten into shape so that Planes from 1945 won't dominate mid war planes...
U guys may not like a RPS, but is this solution really better?
"Let's do the time warp again..." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Effdub
(hope they don't perk the Spit 9 - I'm having to much fun beating up Spit 5's in it :P
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Originally posted by juzz:
1,816 P-47N out of 15,000+ Thunderbolts produced, seeing combat only in 1945 escorting B-29's to Japan is COMMON?
Actually, the P-47N spent as much time flying fighter sweep missions as it did escort. Usually, they encountered the Japanese at low to medium altitudes, and with rare exception, waxed them good.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Fine Nashwan, lets just have the P-47N then. Similar performance to the M as long as they are loaded with the same fuel loads, and they were COMMON.
How about this? Instead of a P-47M as a perk, let's see the P-72A Superbolt. Now here is an absolutely untouchable fighter at low altitude. 480 mph at sea level.
"Now, wait a minute", you say.
"Don't you mean 380 mph at sea level?"
No sir, I mean 480 mph. The XP-72 recorded this speed in 1944 on just 3,000 hp. It was planned to go into production with 3,600+ hp on tap. Think about this for a minute. The P-72A was faster than the Me 262 below 10,000 ft and was expected to be just 22 mph slower than the 262 at 25,000 feet. With the P-80 entering production and the Republic XP-84 design being accepted, the USAAF cancelled the P-72 program. It was the victim of turbojet technology. However, had the Me 262 been a larger problem than it was, Republic was prepared to deliver the first P-72A fighters as early as December, 1944.
Here's a nice shot of the first XP-72 prototype forwarded to me by Warren Bodie.
(http://home.att.net/~historyzone/XP-72.jpg)
Think about this for a moment: This aircraft was 120 mph faster at sea level than the F4U-1D.....
My regards,
Widewing
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Sorry, Me 262 does 514mph at sea level.
Wow, those guys at Rebublic must have been 10x better at aerodynamics than the guys at Goodyear - they only got 399mph out of the F2G with the same engine...
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Originally posted by Animal:
coyote,
are you aware the HOTAS 2000 wont be coming out for quite a few months?
Just in case (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Last I heard it was still comming out in march, but even if it does not I will be perfectly happy building models until it does :-)
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Originally posted by juzz:
Sorry, Me 262 does 514mph at sea level.
Wow, those guys at Rebublic must have been 10x better at aerodynamics than the guys at Goodyear - they only got 399mph out of the F2G with the same engine...
According to what I have read, the 262 cannot sustain full throttle for more than three minutes at sea level. After that, the EGT goes off the scale and the turbine wheel begins to demonstrate the ductility of Silly Putty. My pal George Ceuleers chased a 262 for 120 miles across Germany in his P-51D-15.
The 262 would pull ahead by two or three miles, but had to reduce power to prevent over-temping the engines. Ceuleers would close up, and the 262 pilot would push up the throttles again to open the gap. This went on until one of the engines finally failed under the strain. George closed in and shot down the German. This 262 pilot survived the war and later testified to Ceuleer's story being accurate. The chase took place at "rooftop levels". I have grave doubts that the Me 262 could outrun the P-72 down low.
As to the XF2G-1: This was no more than an early model FG-1 (Birdcage type) with a poorly designed engine installation. The cowling design made considerably greater drag than that of the FG-1. Moreover, the XF2G-1 used the early R-4360-4 engine, which although rated for 3,000 hp at sea level, never produced more than 2,650 hp. Looking at the P-72, we find that it was a much cleaner installation, and its drag coefficient was 20-25% lower than the big, ugly Goodyear. Later, when more power was available, and the installation had been cleaned up somewhat, the F2G-1 could pull 425 mph at sea level. A notable difference between the Goodyear and the XP-72 was in available power. The R-4360-13 truly generated 3,000 hp. Other problems plagued the XF2G-1, such as requiring a large amount of rudder displacement to offset the severe propwash that impinged on the vertical stabilizer. This also added drag and reduced maximum speed.
The factory test documents, signed off by the AAF list 480 mph recored at sea level on 4/14/44 with Carl Bellinger. Ken Jernstedt confirmed that speed two weeks later. Republic's 480 mph sea level speeds are not only accurate, but do not reflect the final production version planned to have 4,000 hp.
This configuration was expected to produce speeds in excess of 500 mph at sea level, with 522 mph at 25,000 feet being a reasonable figure for the power available. This configuration would have included a six blade, contra-rotating prop, rather than the four blade unit installed on Prototype #1.
My regards,
Widewing
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at first i thought widewing was a really learned guy (which im sure you are) but you carry as strong a bias with you as some of the luftwobble whiners and it shines through (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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S! all
Several comments:
1) There were 300 P-47M's built, and they saw a heck of a lot more service than the C-Hogs. The P-47M is preferable to the P-47N because it had lower wingloading. It was based on the standard P-47 D-30 airframe, but not only did it have the uprated engine, it also had a lot of weight shaved off.
2) I think as I have mentioned before that there should be a P-47D-21 Razorback. The pre-bubble top 47's were the planes which filled the role as escort for the B-17 during the crucial period of December '43 to June '44. This was the period when the 8th A.F. broke the back of the Luftwaffe, killing off most of the experienced Jagdwaffe pilots and establishing a dominance in the air which was never seriously challenged after that. (It would also be nice to see the P-51b too. It, not the P-51D flew during this period) The D-21 Razorback had the lower weight (approx. 12,800 full internal fuel) and thus lower wingloading which allowed it to be more competitive. (See Widewing's earlier post for me of the P-47D21 weights document)
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Preach on Brother Buzzbait!!
With the addition of the TA-152, we will need an uber hi-alt allied plane, and the P-47M fits the bill. Also 100% agreed on the Razorback jug, which would be a better mid-low alt scrapping plane.
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We gotta have a Razorback Jug! It just SOUNDS too cool. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'll take the 47M or N to tide me over until then though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
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"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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Widewing, the same technique you used to show that the N1K2-J did not have more than 1400 hp will show you that 3450 hp will not make a P-47 go anywhere near 480 mph at sea level. I have a feeling somebody misprinted the altitude or speed, or forgot to mention that the plane dove from 10,000 feet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by funked:
Widewing, the same technique you used to show that the N1K2-J did not have more than 1400 hp will show you that 3450 hp will not make a P-47 go anywhere near 480 mph at sea level. I have a feeling somebody misprinted the altitude or speed, or forgot to mention that the plane dove from 10,000 feet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I calculate a HP/f ratio of 540. That's better than twice that of the F6F-5. The P-63A, which can attain about 390 mph at sea level has a HP/f ratio of 293.
Required thrust to attain and maintain 480 mph is:
375 x .80 x 3,450/480= 2156 lbs
With regards to the Republic test data: All test hops mentioned utilized instrument panel cameras to record all readings. In addition, the airspeed measuring system was calibrated prior to each flight. I recall that each speed run was begun at 200 ft (over Long Island Sound)and 200 mph. From this baseline, the pilot went to full power and maintained this until the aircraft stopped accelerating. For comparison, did not the Tempest prototype top 470 at sea level?
My regards,
Widewing
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The Tempest prototype did do 477mph in level flight, but no way was it at s/l. It would have been at around 18,000ft. The production Tempest V with the 2420HP Napier Sabre IIB did 390mph at s/l. The Tempest II with the 2500HP Bristol Centaurus V radial did 406mph at s/l.
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Widewing, what armament did the XP-72 have?
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I believe the XP-72 had 6 50 cals.
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They were thinking of 4x37mm too.
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Originally posted by Jack55:
Widewing, what armament did the XP-72 have?
As flown, the two prototypes were fitted with six .50 caliber Brownings. There was some discussion by the AAF to employ four 37 millimeters cannons. This requirement was even inserted into the contract issued for 100 P-72A fighters in June of 1944. However, Republic countered by taking an exception to the requirement, citing the simple fact that this armament would not fit into the wings. Someone wised up and revised the specification to include eight .50 caliber machine guns. Meanwhile, Republic worked up a proposal to install four 20 mm cannon. However, all of this was moot when the contract was cancelled after the AAF reviewed Republic's proposal for the XP-84 jet fighter. The USAAF was unwilling to commit to 20 mm cannons and rejected a similar proposal for the XP-84, which was built with six fifties. Even these were later reduced to just four in production aircraft.
My regards,
Widewing.
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Wow Widewing sounds like it was for real then. Scary!!!
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Man.
The secret weapons of the LW really missed some bad bellybutton american planes.
Could you imagine that thing with 4 hispanos...
Ill let the slide rule crowd decide if it was supersonic at sea level or not but wow.
And the US held it back. Probably cause they were wining so well with what they had.
Ah the Luftwaffe, the Washington Generals of the History Channel.
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LOL! Could you imagine what a jabo plane that would have been if they could have installed the 37mm. LOL!
Pongo, Mach one at sea level is about 720 mph if I remember right.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-21-2001).]
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Yeah I always crack up when I see "Luftwaffe '46" or that kind of stuff, because they always compare to P-51 or B-29. They need to compare to fighters like this and bombers like B-36, B-42, B-45. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)