Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: VISCONTI on October 05, 2000, 11:38:00 AM
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Here again the "little kid stomping his feet because it's not getting a lolly" is back.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
"My point was that there has been open and intelligent discussion on that aircraft's performance. And Pyro was open to suggestions on the aircraft if it could be backed up with hard data."
These kind of operation are hard extremely hard to perform and u need to verify every number u find. When Pyro asked, I startet to collect data, and belive me is like looking for a needle in straw (dont know if is correctly translated).
In the *.zip file u find the recalculated ROC of the c205V and the c202 compared whit the Spit V in AH.
Is extremely interessant to see that the c205V modelled here in AH is very very close to the results i have obtained. And I was very happy on the way the c205V was finally tuned.
In the same way I have recalculated the ROC of the c202 and is extremely different from the one we have here in AH.
I have prepared the ROC of the G55 (I d'ont have the 1947 document plz check if there hare differences).
I'm working on the c200 but i need more data, till now I have an approximated ROC chart but I need to verify before post.
I'm only a player (an ex player at the moment) this is probably a ridiculous work but plz give at it a little of attention.
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/ricerca.zip (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/ricerca.zip)
The *.zip file contains 8 *.doc files.
The *.zip file is about 1.14MB.
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I keep getting 403 errors using that link.
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I'm sorry, I'm working on it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) .
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Ok follow these links:
Page1 (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/page1.html)
Page2 (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/page2.html)
Page3 (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/page3.html)
Page4 (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/page4.html)
Page5 (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/page5.html)
Page6 (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/page6.html)
Page7 (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/page7.html)
Page8 (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/page8.html)
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Two points
1. You compare the calculated C.202 at WEP(1175hp) to the AH C.202 at 100%(not WEP), when it also has a known bug which is reducing performance.
2. Here is the HTC chart of how the C.202 in AH should be performing.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/charts/c202climb.gif)
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Hi Visc,
can you explain the meaning of "recalculated" rate of climb? In other words wich sources do you have for C.205 and C.202 data?
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GATT
4°Stormo Caccia - Knights (http://www.4stormo.it)
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[Impression=Funked]
*WHACKS VISCONTI*
Pyro is fixin it after da con is over!
[/Impression]
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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I have used all the data available that I have found, some data hare from prototipe some others from captured AC. The data comes from books, people on the internet, ex pilots, manuals.
For the c202 we have the maintenance and service manual whit some interestting things about the engine. We have data of the Re2001 that used the same engine.
For the c205V we have the prototipe data whit Orione too and serie tests.
All these data are not certified 100% original, I have not done a research whit that purpose, but the results i have obtained is physically possible for these kind of AC and I have the possibility to verify these data whit pilots that flew these AC.
I have asked to you and your guys to help me in this research but... u know the end.
Anyway the G55 data are close to the 1947 book ???
For juzz: Italians AC have no WEP!! anhoter know bug.
For flakbait: I know, I'm not pushing for speed up the work (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Even whit c202 fixed i will not come back till HTC reach a relative high number of AC (39-43 planeset) or if WW2OL is a stupid game.
After that I start whit the 12.7mm, big surprise (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) .
cyaux
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Visc,
PYRO has the data tables you are referring to, from N.Arena book that is. And only God knows if Arena is a reliable source. Too bad.
As far as the C.205 is concerned I'm pretty happy with what we have now in AH.
We could not help you with data becouse we dont have any new data about the C.202. The manteinance manual has no performance data, as you know well, while the Reggiane Re.2001 is a completely different kite and has the performance of a 109E. The monography "Ali d'Italia" of the C.202 shows some clearly wrong data about time to altitude.
I agree the WEP is a problem. In italian a/c WEP should model only the maximum allowed time at maximum rpm (combat and climb settings). Fighters with a real WEP (like the 109G-10 or some USAF kites) should have something else/different. I posted many times about it but no one replied, HTC included.
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Speaking of WEP, have either of you noticed the 190 A5 and A8 manifold pressure is the same? It sits at 40, punch WEP and it jumps to about 45. Kinda odd since nearly every A8 had MW-50 installed. *shrugs* maybe it's just me.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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Eheh, watch out Flak, you are awakening a big angry bear (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The official 190A-8 manual states that after mid 1944 most of the A-8 had the MW50 system mounted.
However other books and sources say that only a few MW50 kits have been built and, AFAIK, GM-1 systems. I'd like to see the MW50 on the A-8 ... really.
Germans technicians sent a DB605 with MW50 in Italy and it was mounted on a Fiat G.55 "Centauro". Well, the kite reached easily 700km/h at 23,000ft. Here is something to perk! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-06-2000).]
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Hmmmm. Something ain't right in Mudsville. Two different Fw-190 models, with different engines, both with the exact same manifold pressure and prop RPMs at full power. A5 had either D-2 or C-2 type BMW 801 radials. A8 ran on a BMW 801 D-2 w/MW-50 or the much rarer [and more effecient] 801 TU engine. Just seems too weird that both A/C have the same engine and prop performance.
heheheheh, dey don't call me Flakbait fer nothin! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[edit] I also noticed the Typhoon only pulls 8 pounds at full power, and 9 w/WEP on. *scratches head* (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/screwey.wav).[edit]
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 10-06-2000).]
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AcesHigh's 190A-8 has no MW50 on board.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-06-2000).]
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[Maybe we should be in a chat room?] It's got WEP of some kind. GM-1 wasn't introduced on the Fw-190 A8, and if there's no MW-50 onboard then we've got a Mystery WEP! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
I was right, der's somethin scwewy awound here.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 10-06-2000).]
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Its a cloudy early friday afternoon here in Milan ..... well, my working week is over. Dont tell the boss anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As I posted above, a/c with a real WEP (MW50, USAF fighters ...) should have sort of "second step" of WEP. I mean, first step should be the maximum time allowed at max rpm settings (climb and combat settings), second step should be the *real* WEP. Sorry for my written english (spoken is worst), I cannot explain it better.
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Now only if I knew of a chat room......
I understand what you're saying. Hit "P" once, and you get max power. Hit it again and the real WEP [MW-50, GM-1, etc..] kicks in. It'd be great. Now to think of a way for it to be implemented..... Endlessly nagging Pyro with SPAM both in e-mail and here? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hmmmmmm. Maybe.....
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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Yep, let the dweebs burn their engines up by having the WEP button work only for planes with appropriate systems(ie: Me 109G-10, P-47D, F4U-1).
So that you don't have to read aircraft manuals - simply put a green tick on the gauges at the max continuous settings, a yellow tick at max cruise, and a redline at max allowable.
I suppose then there would have to be an automatic "kommandogerat" option for those that can't handle such complex engine managment...
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<S> Visconti The above is a LOT better than the previous post !
Gotta take my comment back (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
DW6
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Yes HTC did a great work on the c205V.
When I have compared the recalculated data and the AH c205 I was extremely surprised (positive comment)
About the monography "Ali d'Italia" I have one copy and yes these data have something strange (1075HP - 5'55" - ...) but I think this monography is for modellers, at the end of this 56 page book we found indication on how to build a statik model, I doubt they have done a correct research about the performances.
Yes the maintenance data book have no performance data but tell you the use of the engine, whit approssimation u can recalculate something to veryfy with the performance data disponible. And again no WEP on Italian AC.
With the Re2001 I have done the same work to verify if the method used for the recalculated data was ok. Re2001 is completely different from the c202 and no direct association was done.
About the G55 we have used data from the prototipe data, test data on production AC or at least so called but we dont have the 1947 book whit the, I think sure, performance. Can someone that have this book verify if is correctly recalculated or if there hare "big" errors?
Please, I dont ask the data, just give me a comment.
Duckwing6, I know that I have done an hvy post and the reaction you and others have had is very comprensible.
The problem is that i am not diplomatic at all, my worst difect.
Anyway, at the end of this month probably I meet L. Gorrini and we can see if more info hare available. (ex c202-c205 pilot)
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"(ex c202-c205 pilot)"
I have to say that I do miss seeing a 205 in the air with your handle above it. <S>
-Westy
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Yes, I can say that Visc is the first notable casualty due to the lack of an early-mid war plane set. Too bad. I'm afraid he wont be the only one.
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Curiosity here-
WEP on the A8 and Italian fighters MAY represent the max allowable RPM speeds on these aircraft. On the A8 at least this RPM and boost was only sustainable for a limited time before the radial began to overheat.
Arguably this is most frustrating in its homogenous application for planes like the La-5FN that could run at full boost-Full RPM for an unlimited amount of time. The Ash-82 could not sustain enough boost to overheat itself, the amount dropping off after 6500 ft to negligible after 8,000. OTOH a plane like the Nik with such a touchy engine and massive (almost 1:1) hp/CID ratios get a great amount of laxity in this way- A real plane would probably have engine failure quickly trying to run the engine like we do.
Perhaps a different system might enchance the differences between fighters and the amounts of power they could produce?