Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on March 27, 2001, 04:24:00 AM
-
First method step by step:
1 - Forget everithing you've learned.
2 - Fly in a general direction towards the enemy.
3 - Forget the gunsight, even delete it.
4 - Keep your mind wide open.
5 - Start to sing a gregorian chant.
6 - Close your eyes.
7 - Use the force.
8 - When you spiritually feel the enemy is in the path of your guns, press fire.
9 - Open your eyes and check the effects.
Second method:
First method step by step:
1 - Forget everything you've learned.
2 - Fly in a general direction towards the enemy.
3 - Use a gunsight with a very big dot in the center (1 inch).
4 - Keep your mind wide byased.
5 - Start to sing a gregorian chant.
6 - Keep your eyes wide open.
7 - Use the brute force.
8 - Ram the enemy with the propeller.
If any of you know another way to score hits with that plane, please, post it here.
-
I concur. i can score hits with F8, A8, A5, but not with D9.
I have film of me being d300 on an enemy, firing all i got, target centered in sight, and scoring NO hits, til i start moving sight above and below the target. Sporadic hits. Convergence at 325.
I thought it was just me - even changed gunsights three times to see if that was it.
But there definitely is something that separates the D9 from other 190s with regards to shooting d300 a target's 6.
On a side note; anyone noticed that mausers and 13mm's require substantially more lead now? I have to lead at d200 as much as I used to do at d325. Am slowly getting used to it, but this extra lead makes snapshots very difficult indeed.
------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
-
I seam to be the only one that hasn't noticed any difference between the Dora and the other 190's when it comes to gunnery, weird.
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/jg5wilbus.gif)
------------------
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 Eismeer
-
Its a conspiracy I tell you!!! A conspiracy!!
*reality mode on*
No Wilbuz its not just you. I can't tell a difference between any of the MG151/20 planes.
To me a Dora feels gunnerywise just like the gondola G10's I have flown since it came out.
IMO its probably a matter of the length of the Dora's nose that is causing it to "feel" different than the earlier A series 190's.
If your the type of pilot that has flown alot of different plane types the differences in "feel" would probably not be that great. But if your a "dedicated" 190 pilot who has almost all his time in 190A's, then its gonna feel VERY different because you are not going to have that vision over the nose that will allow you to pull snapshots on hard manuevering bandits that you are use too.
*reality mode off*
Its a conspiracy I tell you!!! A conspiracy!!
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
Verm, I've flown EXTENSIVELY all the LW planes in AH. Both 109 and 190, in all their versions. Exception made of the 190F8 (the lack of rockets make it an useless field supressor for my taste, and anyway I've not JABO-ed since I came back).
I've never had good gunnery in any of them, maybe exception made of the 109G10 with 30mm (and that because I only fired round by round at extremely high probability point blank ranges). but the dora really has got a strange feeling for me.
Go figure, I fire both MG and cannons on it, only because that way I have more chances to hit with something (in fact if I could do it I would try spitting at the enemies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
As I said, I've never been a good shooter. But dangit, I DID hit when I had no-deflection shoots from 200 yards at a sitting and unaware P51. Now is not strange for me to miss in such situations.
And no, its not the "firing bounce" effect, and its not a gunnery change, IMO. I've tried Fw190A8 too, and my gunnery on it is OK.
Think its dora related only. Maybe the sight is not correctly calibrated?
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-27-2001).]
-
Verm, I've been a dedicated 190 / 109 pilot since the first day. IMO, comparing the 109 aiming with 190 is a big mistake. Without gondolas, 109 Mg151/20 is relatively easy to aim and hit, with gondolas it much easier. In the case of 190, A8 2x20 and A5 2x20 are some tricky to aim and hit, but D9 is almost treacherous when firing.
AFAIK, from the defaul pov, there are no differences between 190A and D, so, the nose lenght isn't a issue.
-
quite frankly, and about the long nose, I've noticed almost no changes in that regard. 190A forward vision is quite limited as it is, the long nose on the D9 doesnt disturb it too much compared with the A series.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-27-2001).]
-
Thats my point Mandoble.
I don't find the Dora any harder than the 109. So if by your theory, the Dora has a serious problem, then I should easily notice the difference between the two.
It should be glaringly obvious.
But for me at least I see no difference.
In my Dora experience, I found it very much like I expect. If I make a good shot, my target dies. If I try to make a snapshot at a high angle/high G, then alot of the time the target gets away.
Question. Are you guys comparing it to 2 cannon 190A's, or 4 cannon 190A's? You sure its not a matter of the difference in lethality rather in the difference in getting hits. You could easily be hitting "under the nose" and getting hits, you just are not getting the kills you expect because you have a lower (1/2) lethality than you are used too. Just pointing out a possibility, not making assumptions.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
It doesn't make any sense to me that it is harder to hit with... but it has certainly seemed that way on several occasions...
-
for some reason the dora is much harder to hit in, and i am not trying to make the dora better cuz i dont like hunstangs much but when flying dora i ccant hi crap. ii do much better shooting in 190 f8
-
Verm, what does a long nose have to do with it? If I'm flying straight and level d300 behind a target with the crosshairs centered, it shouldnt matter how long the nose is.
-
Cant hit crap in Dora either, tho I only few it 2 or 3 times I was very frustrated every time when I got 200-300 yds behind somebody and just plain couldn't hit. Something is odd about Dora guns. They just fall fall short too much too much drop in bullets.
-
Stopped flying Dora when I couldn't hit someone at 300D and flying level. SOmething isnt right about it. I have a 1-1ratio in it and it has fallen to that now. Can't get a kill in it to save my life. Deflection shots are near impossible as well. Maybe knuckles is sitting down to far in the canopy?
------------------
Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
-
Verm, I'm comparing it to A5/A8 2x20. Snapshots with 109 3x20 are even easier than with A8 4x20. 109 3x20 ROF seems to be more than double than any 190.
-
I also can't for some reason, shoot as well with the dora as the other fws'. I've been a dedicated fw jock for as long as I've been flying on-line flight sims. flown all the fw's in here and noticed also that my hit percentage is way down. Had convergence on all the fw's at 300. Had no problem at all hitting something when I had a good solution until I started using the d9. tried various convergences' to no avail. I checked head position on runway, set zoom, and in zoom mode watched the tracers go through the center of pipper. can't set the guns up any better then that. My hit percentage has decreased steeply and I have no idea why. when I change to the a8, or a5 hit percentage goes up. splain that sportsfans???
-
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Question. Are you guys comparing it to 2 cannon 190A's, or 4 cannon 190A's? You sure its not a matter of the difference in lethality rather in the difference in getting hits. You could easily be hitting "under the nose" and getting hits, you just are not getting the kills you expect because you have a lower (1/2) lethality than you are used too. Just pointing out a possibility, not making assumptions.
I've been a Fw190A5 nut since 1.03 until dora came to AH.
I flew A5 90% of the time in a 2 cannon configuration.
its not the 2 cannon, is that not being able to hit a straight and level plane at D200, in a non-deflection shot is not normal. Even for a lousy shot like me.
-
Lots of 190 drivers seem to have a problem with sitting duck d300 level no g non deflection shots.
Perhaps there is something to it?
------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
-
FWIW, since I don't fly them....
I tried it in the offline mode on drones with convergence at 300. Shooting from 200-400 I found I had to "hold over" with my usual center dot to score solid hits.
Hold over was about 3 dot widths.
BTW, I use a single dot site that I made up in Paint. It's a cluster of 6 "grid squares" in a 2 row, 3 column format.
Might try making a custom sight for the Dora that builds in a bit of hold over.
Good Luck.
-
It seems to me like the Shells from Dora fall off more rapidly...I know that doesn't make sense, but that is how it seems. To solve it I overcorrected. I am using the REVI Gunsite for the G10 and I usually dont open fire until 250 to 300yds. So for the Dora, I set the convergence to around 400 or 450 yds (Although I am planning on 300 yds) and that helped a lot. YOu may want to adjust your height in the cockpit (See the Andy Bush article) to help adjust the convergence wrt your gunsite.
------------------
Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
MAG-33 (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/M3.html)
'Criticism is always easier than craftmanship.'
-
Originally posted by Wilbus:
I seam to be the only one that hasn't noticed any difference between the Dora and the other 190's when it comes to gunnery, weird.
Yeah... you and this guy...
Stain has 22 kills and has been killed 3 times in the Fw 190D-9.
-SW
-
I don't believe the dora has worse guns than the other FW in AH.
Even in my short AH tiem u all should know i am a decicated LW pilot.
I dont believe the DORA has any probs.
I use a convergence of 300 and normally i start firng around 400-450 yards (tgt flies streight away).
Yet i dont have any probs with hitting. Even in deflection shoot i have a good hit percentage.
There are other things to complain about but not the guns.
i.e. i thing the forward view in the AH FW is worse than real, cause AH developers havent recognized that a FW flies with the nose 5 degrees down when in level flight, this gave it exellent forward view. And about the douple delfetion was possible in the FW with a view on the tgt, compared to the spit.
But in AH both have about the same forward view limitation. It also seems that the spit can lead a tgt more without losing sight of it.
This is a real prob, the guns are fine(if u dont compare tham to 0.5 cal laser guns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)).
-
AKSeaWulfe, K/D means nothing about gunnery. Lets talk about hit percentage. Anything above 0.1000 is aceptable, anything below is spray'n pray. Now I'm becoming an spray'n pray Dora dweed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
-
Has anyone considered that there might be a problem with the default view position in the D9? Anybody remember when we had the same problem with one of the 109's way back?
Guys... try this. Jump in a D9 offline. Just sit on the runway. Now, punch Z, and use [ and ] to zoom in as far as you can. Now fire your guns, and observe where your tracers seem to cross. Because of dispersion and gun shake it will be tough to judge, but you can get a pretty good idea. Adjust it to a position that looks pretty good. Now try firing your D9 and see if it's more effective.
This could be the real issue if there is one. It would also explain why some don't see the problem, since some folks manually adjust their head position in each plane for better positioning or a custom gunsight.
------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
-
Set convergence to maximum and fire at very close range.
-
Originally posted by Lephturn:
Has anyone considered that there might be a problem with the default view position in the D9? Anybody remember when we had the same problem with one of the 109's way back?
Guys... try this. Jump in a D9 offline. Just sit on the runway. Now, punch Z, and use [ and ] to zoom in as far as you can. Now fire your guns, and observe where your tracers seem to cross. Because of dispersion and gun shake it will be tough to judge, but you can get a pretty good idea. Adjust it to a position that looks pretty good. Now try firing your D9 and see if it's more effective.
This could be the real issue if there is one. It would also explain why some don't see the problem, since some folks manually adjust their head position in each plane for better positioning or a custom gunsight.
I thought on doing it, Lephturn. But if the problem is, as it seems, that the sight is too high for the weapon drop, then how do I know where to put mu head?. Because rounds will be crossing the sight upside down all the time and I dont know the distances from the cockpit, right?.
Anyway such a solution would be effective only with just one weapon convergence. I, by myself, use to toy around with the convergences a lot between sorties, mostly depending on the fight I'm going to fight (BnZ-> maximum convergence, E.fight-> 500 yards. Furballing-> 350 yards).
with the "custom" head position ,any variation on the convergence would drive you nuts.
If it is a problem with the weapons not firing correctly at the point marked by the sight, then it should be fixed by HTC, imo.
I would run some tests on this but ranges are damned difficult to calculate. Someone knows how to do it?.
-
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
AKSeaWulfe, K/D means nothing about gunnery. Lets talk about hit percentage. Anything above 0.1000 is aceptable, anything below is spray'n pray. Now I'm becoming an spray'n pray Dora dweed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
That's your opinion. The fact that I strafe ground targets(acks) to assist my country mates gives me a low gunnery %. I started out .24% this tour, but then I did some strafing.
-SW
[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 03-28-2001).]
-
Originally posted by Lephturn:
This could be the real issue if there is one. It would also explain why some don't see the problem, since some folks manually adjust their head position in each plane for better positioning or a custom gunsight.
My head is adjusted to be all the way back in every airplane. I don't adjust height, except to look over my nose for bogeys (scanning the skies) or shift left to right to scan past the nose. In zoom mode, I am zoomed close enough to the gunsight so that the area where the cockpit that is a lighter grey and the bottom half that is a darker grey meet and that is at the bottom of my screen. I find this the optimal zoom position for any plane, not too much nose bounce and close enough to distinguish how far below the target your shells are dropping. Same view settings for every plane, I don't use a fancy gunsite either... just a death dot that I slightly modified. At 450+ yards, you have to have the plane lined up with the bottom half of the dot, at 350yds- dead center, and at less than 250yds the enemy needs to be lined up with the top half of the dot.
Convergence pushed way out to 650yds.
-SW
-
Ram,
Of course it should be fixed... IF it's wrong. We don't know if it's wrong.
It's simple to test, and if it's wrong it will be obvious. I'll check it when I get time... but I'm at work right now.
SW... if your convergence is set to 650 your dot should be centered where the streams cross. If you set your convergence to 300, the streams should cross (Ghostbusters flashback!) roughly dead center of your dot. Maybe the default head position is a tiny bit too low.
------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
-
Originally posted by Lephturn:
SW... if your convergence is set to 650 your dot should be centered where the streams cross. If you set your convergence to 300, the streams should cross (Ghostbusters flashback!) roughly dead center of your dot. Maybe the default head position is a tiny bit too low.
If it ain't broke.. don't break it trying to fix it. (http://cwmonkey.virtualave.net/s/net/hapfac01.gif)
Thanks for the tip though Leph.
-SW
-
As i said earlier in this thread
Maybe knuckles is sitting down to far in the canopy? i think that is the root of the problem, or at least one of them. Should have said cockpit but didn't want to offend the pansie RAF guys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) lol J/K
------------------
Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
-
Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
That's your opinion. The fact that I strafe ground targets(acks) to assist my country mates gives me a low gunnery %. I started out .24% this tour, but then I did some strafing.
-SW
[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 03-28-2001).]
I'm not talking about YOUR gunnery, in fact I've no idea about your %. And, in the case you use ONLY D9, and your gunnery is better than 0.1000, then just congrats.
-
RAM, AFAIK if sight is correctly placed, at any convergence the bullets will cross horizontally at the same time they cross vertically the center of the sight. So, you can test it with any conv numbers.
-
Lepthurn, I'm not assuming its wrong. That is the reason I wanted to do some tests on it. I said "IF it is wrong then..." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
RAM, AFAIK if sight is correctly placed, at any convergence the bullets will cross horizontally at the same time they cross vertically the center of the sight. So, you can test it with any conv numbers.
For my own experience I will tell you that this affirmation is not right. I used to have a sight calibrated to be used with the head on a raised position in the Fw190.(so gaining a bit of visibility over the cowling).
I dropped it after 2 weeks only, because ANY (and I mean ANY) change of the convercence would ruin your gunnery. I simply deleted that sight and put a Revi 16B in its place.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-28-2001).]
-
Test done offline. Just taking off, gaining some speed and switching on autolevel. Conv to 300, max zoom, and start firing "bullet" by "bullet" (so no vibration effect is affecting the shots) and checking the path of those with tracers.
Well, the restuls are alarming, some bullets go hi, then drop, some others go directly down, some others go directly to the left of the visor (up or down), etc. It is almost aleatory at all. The dispersion horizontal and vertical is tremendous.
I invite you all to do this test and get as horrified as me.
-
Offline I go into zoom mode, pull trigger and then raise my pov until I see tracer going thru center of sight, then save my head position, So far my Dora hits what I shoot at.
------------------
pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
-
pzvg, I've tried that already with even worse results.
First: some bullets drop directly to the right of the sight center.
Second: some others go up with a different pattern than the rest, so passing over the sight center and going down at the left of the center.
third: elevating the POV makes short distance shots even harder, while helping a bit with shots at medium range.
Going back to default pov and havig the same original problems: bullets going directly down or right the sight. A small percentage of bullets crossing the sight center with cnv at 300 yards.
I'm almost sure there is a real problem with those guns. Related to the sight possition, gun possition or to an exagerate dispersion.