Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Naudet on March 28, 2001, 01:19:00 AM
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I have the bad feeling that the DORA doesnt turn like it should.
Here the reason for this feeling.
I had a dogfight with a P47 Thunderbolt, the Bolt hat the alt, and manged to get on my six. I did a hard break turn and was able to avoid hits(i think it was due to the speed differnce the P47 couldnt turn inside me).
But than the following happened, the P47 got bck on my six, deaccelerated and stayed on my six at 300 yards, co-alt (about 5K).
So at the start of the follwing we both had the same alt, speed and E.
I thought, OK now i can turn him, cause his P47 is the even a worse turnfighter than my D9 (i hope there is no doubt that this is a fact of WW2). So i pulled a hard 5,5 G turn, near to the blackout, and he did the same, cause distance did not increase or decrease. WEP was on, so i though the P47 would bleed E faster than me. But no, he stayed in this turn, till i had to reduce the G loading to avoid stall and a stop in midair, but the P47 had still enough E to lead me and hit me.
The distance was the same over the whole turning time. So teh same of the P47 was the same as mine.
And i know that a P47 cant turn as tight as a DORA, especially when the speed has droped enought so that turn radius and speed is related to lift, engine power and wing loading.
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S!
I suggest you take a look at the respective wing loading of the Dora and the P-47D25. You'll find the P-47 is better. And in a sustained turn the most important factor is wingloading. In a high speed initial turn, your Dora might be better, although the Jugs were good too.
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Originally posted by Buzzbait:
And in a sustained turn the most important factor is wingloading.
Don't forget powerloading .... it's VERY important in a sustained turnfight.
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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I dont want to offend u, but what u say is that a bird (the D9) that was rated as equal to the Spit 14 by a GB test pilot (Cpt. Eric Brown) who flew all WW2 aircraft in comparision trials, actually isnt worth the time spent for getting alt in AH, cause all other fighters in AH runs rings around it?
If a Mustang had probs to turn an A8 (as reported in many books i.e. JG26 - Top Guns of the LW), than a P47 should never be able to turn a D9.
Why, very simple, a P47 didnt turn like a Stang (right?? I never read that a P47 ever was able to turn as good as a stang) and the D9 turns better than the A8 (as reported by GE pilots who flew both).
But i will stop here, and will modify my guidelines when flying a Dora.
1. Get even more alt.
2. Never fight 1 on 1 without alt
3. Never try to turn -> so only make one pass and say bye bye
4. get used to be called "coward" or "run-dora"
P.S. I am still waiting for a Vermillion answer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Naudet (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Naudet, just what I know very well after months of experience with A5/A8 and now D9 in AH.
P47/P51 bleed energy slower than A5/A8. P51/P47 can turn easily inside A8 and even inside the A5.
P51/P47 will outzoom climbing A5/A8.
P51/P47 will outdive A5/A8.
P51/P47 at hi speed outroll A5/A8.
P51/P47 will reverse in the vertical faster and smoother than A5/A8.
In terms of agility, I put the D9 between A5 and A8 (closer to A8), so, I never expect to be able to outturn P51/P47 co E.
Against the 47 you can try a "slow" spiral climb to take advantage of the D9 acceleration, but dont try to outturn it in the horizontal plane.
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Thx Mandoble, for the data and tips.
Btw against a tiff a slow spiral climb will not work.
i always wonder when i fly a D9 in a flight sim, how any GE pilot could call it the "best german piston-engined fighter of the war", were in fact, in any sim (i bet in WW2 it was different) every little BF 109 is a much better fighter than the FW190.
I will too, test my skills in other birds over the next weeks, i think P51, Spit IX and LA7 will be a good choice to test with.
[This message has been edited by Naudet (edited 03-28-2001).]
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1. Thunderbolt wing is shaped like a Spitfire wing, but with a superior airfoil section. Wing design affects speed loss in a turn.
2. Fuel load!!! P-47D can carry some 2000lbs+ of internal fuel.
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If you find yourself low and slow in the Dora, you have lost the fight already. Only if the skill disparity is largely in your favor you can hope to successfully fight it out. Even an escape is a victory then !
However, do not blame the plane or FM. The Dora was never ment to be flown that way.
It is, IMO, the best piston engined fighter the Luftwaffe had. Why ? Because it adds more potential to already dangerous 190A series. Speed !
The trick is not to Quake it around. Choose your fights carefully, always fight from advantage, never fight at disadvantage. If some of your enemies have problem with that, fine, that's why they probably chose TnB machines anyway. Teach them to respect the dora. Never fight their way. Attack and disengage when it suits you. They will probably hate you for this, but it is their problem.
Early 190As had this luxury. And they did wonderfully. But even they would be dead if caught low and slow.
Only when P 51s arrived it became harder to 190s. No more easy escapes. The Dora switches the balance once again. With Dora, it is again like it was in 1942 - with enough alt and speed you are untouchable.
Turning in horizontal is a big no-no for LW planes since 1939. Maybe even from 1916 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Why do you think you have the roll rate ? With P 47 behind you, just roll out of the way and pick speed. When that brick rolls to match your roll, repeat the process. Your E income is far greater than his and soon you will dzctate the fight. And if the odds are bad, you can run away. If at alt, dive, roll into one direction, pull into blackout, roll once again and you are gone. He can't possibly follow.
Still, with TAS anywhere below 300 mph do not think of entering the fight. 400 TAS is even better. 5k of alt is a minimum energy cushion. Break those rules and you are giving stickpullers a chance they don't deserve.
You say you were with P47 at 5k ? How fast were you. What were you trying to do ? In situation when he is on your six, flatturn is a bad move (zoom climb would be the worst move). Instead, you should have picked up speed and shake him off in high speed series of maneuvers. Then get ouf of sight, climb, and come back and nail him.
[This message has been edited by Glunz (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Naudet,
how much fuel did you have in your Dora, and what about the P-47's fuel load? Many allied pilots fly with 25% fuel and drop tank(s). And Ponies and Jugs with very little fuel, WEP and combat flaps can do amazing things.
BTW, I never ever enter turnfites driving Focke-Wulf's. When I cannot maneuver in the vertical, the maximum I usually do is a < 90 degrees flat turn (if I've enuff E). Instantaneous turn rate is very good due to roll rate and good "high-g" behaviour. But then I unload and extend.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-28-2001).]
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To Glunz, fight started at around 15K, he was a bit higher, and so no way to get away (even a D9 cant dive from a P47), i used the roll and SPlit S combo time and time, till i got to 5, there u had to do the horizonatl brak, cause if i would have rollt he would have had 1 sec to fire at a straight flying plane.
To Gatt:I had around 50& fuel at the start.
What really amazes me is that i survive with the D9 in furballs below 10K (as long as someone calls out "Check 6 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ), even down to 1k for hours and hours and at speeds that are not much greater than 320 mph and fall down to 230mph in evasive moves, but when it comes to a 1on1 i get my bud handed over.
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You could not outdive and outroll him? Provided you had enuff saparation from him, it is hard to believe.
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Outdive a P47? Hows that? When there is one category for a WW2 fighters in whcih an allied fighter rulled it was the dive and that was the P47.
Maybe its only me, but if i roll the D9 at full roll rate, i miss the point were to pull into the Split S (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) , maybe i have to ajust my stick setting so it reacts faster to aileron control.
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Naudet, IMO, Dora is one the best, if not the best not perked planes in the actual arena. It can build up energy faster (considering all altitudes) than any plane with the exception of G10, but it has much better control than G10 at hi speeds. (note: G10 outturns the D9 at medium and lo speeds).
Obviously, this is not an "easy" plane. Surelly any Spit pilot flying the D9 will cry "WTF plane". IMO, 190D9 was the best piston engine fighter of the WWII that saw combat in large numbers, followed by Spit XIV/Yak9U.
The big problem in AH is that you must be really, really close to the enemy to have any chance of scoring hits and it has almost null snapshot capability. So, some times you must get into very close dogfights to be able to kill cons.
IMO, something is wrong with the AH D9 gunnery.
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AFAIK, the AH P47 compress at very high speed and her roll rate is not so good. I dunno if this is right or not. What I know is that at very high speeds I prefer the 190D-9. This is not RL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<Edit> I agree with Mandoble. I dunno if the reason is the cannons/prop synchronization but there is something weird I dont feel while driving a 2x20mm A-5.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Mandoble, since the DORA is out i fly it day in day out, i always have choosen my fights in it well (most time).
As i said i have np to hit with the DORA, i have probs to move this birdy into firing position.
In 1on1 equal to the start (me with alt and E) i normally end up with the enemy on my 6 not he with me on his. The only way to avoid death then is to run, if i try to fight again, i die.
Cause of this i think there is something with the DORA E management, even when i completly avoid horizontal moves and fly vertikal only, to hold my E. Even than the D9 burns so much E that after 3-4 passes the enemy turns the tables and the only option is to run, if the enemy is slower.
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Mandoble i agree the 190 dora is perched somewhere between the 190a5 and 190a8 in terms of manouverability but you are forgeting the difference in speed and power the dora enjoys.
I flew 190a8 almost exclusively for many tours and i know the plane is very capable dog fighter but it is different!.I use totally different methods to get a resolving shot in the 190 compared to say a spit or p47.But!, it was always a problem if you got caught up or had to trick others into missreading your e state etc.
Well now i have the dora i have found that 'extra' something i always lacked and my kills/losses in it have improved considerably.In AH the dora will get you out of situations the 190a5 and 190a8 would flounder in.It has the same 190 querks which you have to learn the hard way but once learned it can be a deadly fighter and to be honest i feel so far in AH the dora has the feel of the aircraft ive read so much about.
The f4uc still feels abnormally deadly to me but i dont see so many now so im going to give up trying to get it changed.
Im just waiting for the dora is uber crap to start now the USAAF fans have a worthy opponent.
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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hazed, plz share ur wisdom with me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
i need to know a few tricks to get firing solution in a 1on1
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LOL! Sorry I was so late to join the thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And FYI for all you guys that think I am "anti-Luftwaffe", Hostile shores will be the first scenario I have flown as Allied in about my last 12 or so scenarios. And in alot of those I was the Axis XO or CO, SO (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) !!
Naudet, most of what I would say has already been covered in the thread. And I'm at work, so I don't have any resources to quote wingloadings and powerloadings.
But here is what I can add:
The Dora is a poor turner no matter what, and up against a P-47 there are several factors that make the difference. Intial positions & E states, fuel loads, pilot skills & tactics used.
You already said that he started out with an E advantage, and we don't know who the P-47 pilot was. (If it was Drex, I'm just gonna laugh, he's a magician in a P47).
So lets talk about tactics. Realize these are just my own opinons, and feel free to disagree with me.
First off the worst defensive manuever you can use is the Split S, and way too many pilots in AH use it almost exclusively. It gives away too much E, and never gives you a chance at equalizing Energy states. If your getting bounced from a higher and much faster enemy, even a poor turning aircraft like the Dora can use a rolling break turn, to make the enemy miss without giving up any E. And after a couple of passes the E states will equalize, giving you the opportunity to engage on an equal footing, or if you prefer to disengage and run away.
Second, the Dora can dive away from a Jug on his six, given similar starting E (realize that I don't mean he is at 300yards and firing if this is the case you lost the fight much earlier). Especially since your roll rate is better. Just make sure as you dive down, using lazy rolling movements, so that you don't dive in a straight line. As the fight gets low on the deck, continue to to use very low G turns to spoil any easy shot, and once his dive speed bleeds off, your deck speed will allow you to pull away very quickly.
The problems you are experiencing offensively, are the same problems that Pony drivers experience when they are new to the plane. Its hard to get into a good offensive firing position, with a plane that does not relatively turn very well, against an enemy that is actively defending againtst you. You just need more time, practice, and furballs with enemies that aren't paying attention (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Naudet:
As i said i have np to hit with the DORA, i have probs to move this birdy
Naudet, the way I measure the chance to hit in a plane is based on the "hit percentage" and the range. Hit percentages greater than 0.1000 are good for 300 yards or less, anything else implies spray&pray at some level. I can hit with the Dora spending 1/4 of the ammo load at 300 yards, but IMO this is just "having serious problems to hit with a bird".
Try 109, you'll see that hitting at 300 yards or less is just EASY. Try the same with A5 or A8 2x20mm, much harder than 109. And then compare it with the D9. With D9, 90% of my first shoots on any enemy drop below or aside the con and alert him. Turning tracers off is even worse.
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I'm thinking it isn't the plane... it's the pilots flying the plane....
Stain has 22 kills and has been killed 3 times in the Fw 190D-9.
-SW
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Vermillion, thanks for the advice, i normally enjoy (like now) ur view on every topic.
As u may have read, i used the rolling brake turn (is this a flat turn?) after i droped to 5 K, but simply to get out by diving did not come to my mind, cause i was facing a P47 the mighty dive monster, next time i try it.
And to Mandoble, my Hit percentage is 6-7% atm. And i start to open fire normally at 450 yrads (much to early, and i still try to get impossible deflection shoots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ).
If we take the case enemy at 300 yrds. flying level, i only need a short burst 1-2 secs. to ruin his day. Convergenc is 300 yrds.
If i am in one of my beloved furballs (hehe cause i survive them normally) or have the luck of running into enemies not paying attention, i normally run outta fuel before ammo is ever close to be short.
Average of rounds used in such cases are the following:
20 mm= 50 rounds
13mm= 80 rounds
this is about 10 %of the ammo load for a kill, i dont think this is to much.
But i will try to get experience in other often used birds the next weeks and compare it, if my hit % goes up while not flying D9 u might be right.
Just for Seawulf:
I have 60 kills in D9 and only died 9 times in it. For a guy flying AH only 5 weeks this lloks good to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Naudet (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Originally posted by Naudet:
Just for Seawulf:
I have 60 kills in D9 and only died 9 times in it. For a guy flying AH only 5 weeks this lloks good to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Yup, I know. I looked it up. Santa has an amazing kill/death too. I'm just saying, the plane is fantastic and fits the idea of how it performed in WWII in my mind. The turning ability is very very good, but once you bleed away it's energy it goes to pot... which is how it should. It's heavier on the controls than the A5, but lighter than the A8. As it should be. The guns are amazing, get between 3 and 6 kills a flight with it. The convergence is pushed out to 650 yards, this gives me comfortable room to open fire on guys trying to extend. At it's operational altitude and at a speed greater than 275MPH the 190D9 is an absolute menace.
I'm just trying to say, just because someone is a "dedicated" 190 pilot doesn't mean they are going to wreak havoc in the D9 just because they have this idea it's the latest and greatest. If you fly more than one type of aircraft you are going to do a LOT better in the D9 than you would if you just flew the 190 or 109 series.
FYI, the zoom in that plane is by far the best in the arena. I zoomed away from a Typhoon the other night when an F4U zoomed up behind me from further away. I just began to roll when the F4U was opening fire. He hit my engine and I lost it. He stalled out before me, I dove down and blew him to bits.
It's a great plane, just gotta know how to use it and keep it away from the deck.
-SW
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SeaWulfe, K/D means nothing even in conjuntion with K/T and hit percentage for few amount of kills. If, for a single plane type, the K/D is maintained with an above average K/T and a hit percentage greater than 0.1000 for a good amount of kills (100 or more), then we'll be talking about the pilot and not the plane, else, any factor aside the pilot may be involved in the ratios.
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I find the A5 and D9 much easier to maneuver than the 109Gs... but I know that a large part of that is due to my style, and that I like to scream around the sky as fast as I can, and the Dora does great a speeds that will lock up the G10. The speed of the Dora combined with above average roll rate, decent turning and E retention, and control in a dive are the things which make it one of the best birds in there. I personally think the P51D has the overall edge, but the Dora is damn good.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
SeaWulfe, K/D means nothing even in conjuntion with K/T and hit percentage for few amount of kills. If, for a single plane type, the K/D is maintained with an above average K/T and a hit percentage greater than 0.1000 for a good amount of kills (100 or more), then we'll be talking about the pilot and not the plane, else, any factor aside the pilot may be involved in the ratios.
I started flying it yesterday after you said that the gunnery was a bad joke.
I had about a 1.00K/D and a .98something K/Sortie from flying the C205. I jumped into the Fw190D9 a little while afterwards and my gunnery went up .1% as did my K/D and K/Sortie.
The plane isn't broken.
-SW
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SeaWulfe, this has been recently discused in another thread, anyway I'll expose you my experiences here.
When I fly 109 I basically know where to aim to hit a plane at first attempt, even in hi angle snapshots at short range. The same is aplicable to 190A8/A5, but, obviously with different parameters than 109. With D9 I use same parameters than A8/A5, but it doesn't work. This is the point, aiming the same way I use with A series, the result is frustrating for same convergence settings. AFAIK, the D9 have the internal guns in the exact same disposition that A8/A9, the extra lenght of the nose is not an issue due the actual cockpit art gives the same view area for any 190.
If you are comming from C205 to D9, you are, for sure, expecting differences in gunnery. But the case is that I'm comming from 190A5/A8 to D9 and I didn't expect any change in gunnery.
A last note: I'm talking only about the guns Mg151/20, not the MGs.
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The plane isn't broken, but there's something fishy about the guns, at least for some players.
I doubt that such a large and dedicated group of 190 drivers are merely whining here.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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I'm going to ignore the D9 gunnery issue, that's not what this thread is about.
Now, lets start with the fact that the P47 in question had an energy advantage, AND a positional advantage from the sounds of things. Now Naudet says the Jug had E and "decelerated and stayed on my six at 300 yards". The trick is, in order to stay on your six he didn't cut throttle and slow down... he simply used lag pursuit. I KNOW this is what happened, and I can prove it. If the Jug was at 300 yards on your FE and in lead pursuit you would be dead. The only way you lived that long is if the Jug driver is patiently sitting in lag pursuit conserving energy. This attacker might well have been me... this is exactly how I would handle a DoRun. You pulled a hard turn. Now as Jug pilot I know that our turning performance is fairly close, and will depend more on gas load and E than anything else, and I have the E. Now I would likely use a high yoyo to conserver more E if I can.. but the ONLY way I can do what you describe is by using lag pursuit of some sort to travel farther than you are at a higher speed, thus keeping more speed (E) but staying on your six and maintaining the same distance. Basically, at this point the D9 is burning E as fast as possible, while the Jug has used greater speed and lag pursuit to keep position and range, waiting for the D9 to bleed his life away. Once Naudet had blown all his E and was slow and helpless, the Jug pilot simply pulled harder for the shot, burning that extra E he saved, and blew his bellybutton away.
Nothing wrong here at all. The 47 pilot knew his business. He used his E advantage to put himself in a position where he could sit back and conserve his energy, waiting for the D9 to blow his.
Now, how could you have beaten him? Well first of all, a Jug with an E advantage is a very tough opponent for any of the 190's. Turn performance is close enough that you can't count on it. You don't out-dive one.. what's left? Acceleration. The Jug can't accelerate very well at all, and I'd say the D9 is one of the better accelerators in the game. Now at this point you are defensive because the Jug has all the cards. You must try a sucker move. That means a defensive spiral, scissors, or some other move designed to force an overshoot. You want to shallow dive for speed to get the Jug really wound up, then as he gets close enough simply roll into a HARD scissors, cut your throttle, and pop flap if you can. If you do it right, by the second turn he's blown on past, and you may have a shot as he overshoots. You can either try to use your great acceleration to follow him up as he zooms, or roll opposite and bug out. You can out accelerate the Jug, so any move that slows both planes down is a good idea, since you can get your plane back up to speed much faster than he can. If he has a lot more E, and you don't want to try to follow him, the second he zooms after the overshoot, you need to roll into his blind side and do a 0G shallow diving extension. Having been on both ends of this, I know that the D9 will leave the Jug behind like it's tied to a tree. The Jug doesn't have the acceleration to follow that, and it isn't nearly fast enough. The D9 is MUCH faster level than a Jug, so once you have 1k of separation the D9 can now dictate the fight or bug out. In the scissors move the Jug has either burned a ton of E and slowed way down to stay with you, or he has overshot and zoomed to try and escape being shot, using his greater E to get above you. Either way, you now either have the separation or the more equal energy states you need to escape in the D9.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Originally posted by StSanta:
The plane isn't broken, but there's something fishy about the guns, at least for some players.
I doubt that such a large and dedicated group of 190 drivers are merely whining here.
From Tour 12:
AKSWulfe has 74 kills and has been killed 17 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 10:
AKSWulfe has 51 kills and has been killed 29 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 9:
AKSWulfe has 197 kills and has been killed 51 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 7:
AKSWulfe has 115 kills and has been killed 18 times in the fw190A-5.
EDIT
Tour 6:
AKSWulfe has 168 kills and has been killed 25 times in the fw190A-5.
Ssssooo, you can hardly call me inexperienced in the 190 series or even a bad 190 pilot.
Simple fact of the matter is, the plane and the guns are not broke. You have to fly it appropriately. Just because *SOME* players are having problems with the guns, does not equate to the guns being broke. I'm willing to bet that they are expecting the D9 to aim like the A5.
With the stubby nose on the A5, the cannons will appear to converge higher above the front of the nose. In the D9 the cannons will appear to converge lower because of it's longer nose.
Do you see the same amount of road in front of you in a '67 Mustang and a '99 Honda Civic? No.
EDIT:::
A 190D9 will never keep a sustained turn inside of a Jug. Given enough energy, the 190D9 has a very good initial turn. After that you best be going vertical and getting altitude to make another pass. You'll never turn with a Jug.
-SW
[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Maybe more than any other plane, 190 needs speed to be successful. Flying it successfully means almost one thing only – watch your speed, you are never too fast.
Lose sight – lose fight can be translated to lose speed – lose fight. For 190 pilot, that is. Literally.
Since maneuvering bleeds off speed, any violent control deflection must be taken with great care. The speed bleed is making you very vulnerable. When you are out of speed, you better have alt to quickly trade it for speed, or you are in big trouble. Enemy pilots can be total newbies and they can still give you trouble if you are low and slow in 190. If you manage to escape from those situations, consider yourself victorous.
Forget about sustained turning. That’s for kids. High speed control authority and corner turn are enough.
It never ceases to amaze me how people have problems with 190 pilots’ style. They are mostly called running dweebs etc. It is like calling Spit pilot a turning dweeb. The 190 is one of the toughest plane to fly right. How many times a 190 pilot has to refuse the fight, how many times he has to stay away from the lead turn which which he would do in other planes, how many times he sees mistakes of enemy pilots he cannot take advantage of ?
Flying 190 is one of the toughest things in AH, especially since every plane outturns you and great deal of them outruns, outclimbs and outdives you.
Dora is the blessing for 190 pilot. It can still be outturned, outclimbed here and there, but outrun and outdived only by best of them.
IMO, Dora dives just as good (if not better) as P47. Once it levels off near the deck, it becomes clear why it is a better plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Ive been engaged in high speed low alt turnfights with P51Bs and Ds against the doras and those 190D FMs can really pull back on the stick for amazing HO shots. I dont really put much faith in the physics modeling anymore. Its just a computer game really.........guess it seems pretty decent though for the most part.
Also seen LA7s do some amazing stuff, like pull up from a 45 degree frontal approach 5k below and get a six position, chase me and kill me in a fully steamed 51 at 23k.
Its funny really......hehe he he..........hehe
Y
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Hey Glunz,
Folks give the D9 pilots a hard time for two readons. 1. Many D9 pilots run when they have an advantage since they don't know how to exploit the E fight properly. 2. They do it to get the bastiges pissed so they'll turn. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I know that's why I give 'em watermelon on channel 1, it's because I want them to turn around so I can have a shot at 'em.
The D9 is one of the best BnZ fighters in the game, and a credible E fighter as well. It also has a clear advantage over most other planes in the game in terms of speed. Try flying a Jug for a while if you want a real challeng. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Agreed, Lephturn, Jug is a challenge. But 190A-8 is even greater. After A-8, Dora is like a vacation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
The D9 is one of the best BnZ fighters in the game, and a credible E fighter as well. It also has a clear advantage over most other planes in the game in terms of speed. Try flying a Jug for a while if you want a real challeng. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Last time I gave it a try I got a 28-5 K/D...and one of those deaths was because the supergun on a M3 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
On the Dora Issue. Dora-P47 turnfite. Use your acceleration over the P47. That means gradually starting to use the vertical plane on your turns, after both planes have lost all their E (anyway, and as a rule of thumb,dont flat turn, ALWAYS keep a vertical component). In the end, what is a close fight would end with the P47 turning flat while the dora is barrel rolling. In this situation the Dora has the E advantage and can pull some lead to destroy the Jug, or disengage at will.
I used this a lot against the P51s, in a Fw190A5, back in the 1.04. First 2-3 turns bait him to bleed all his E. Then gradually start using the vertical to keep your surplus E income in the "E bank". The P51 simply can't follow such a gradual move.
Of course, takes time and bit of skill not to let the enemy a shoot. THis is VERY dangerous if you misread the bandit's E state.
If the P47 flat turns the Dora will get a shot sooner or later (more sooner than later), if it uses vertical component. Simple.
On the turning issue, the D9 is a Fw190: that means, initial turnrate is awesome even while E-bleeding is high. In fact E-bleeding is a good thing in hi-speed turns, you know why?...
You decelerate faster,so you turn tighter. If the enemy plane is a good E-retainer, you can actually turn inside it if the speeds involved are high enough (typical cheater call I've taken "NO WAY YOUR 190 CAN TURN INSIDE MY SPITFIRE!!". Typical answer: "yes at 400 IAS" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)).
Never take a dora under 200mph IAS in a close fight. Never. Use the vertical, barrel rolls, rolling scissors. Whatever. But DONT let that plane under 200mph because its dead. Over that speed you can maniobrate quite nicely. Under that speed your left wing will drop easily in about any non-gentle move, making you lose time and more than possibly the fight.
Of course some stupid jocks (like me), like to ride the stall horn back to 120mph IAS.
That is why I only have a 2-1 K/D on the Dora (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
From Tour 12:
AKSWulfe has 74 kills and has been killed 17 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 10:
AKSWulfe has 51 kills and has been killed 29 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 9:
AKSWulfe has 197 kills and has been killed 51 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 7:
AKSWulfe has 115 kills and has been killed 18 times in the fw190A-5.
EDIT
Tour 6:
AKSWulfe has 168 kills and has been killed 25 times in the fw190A-5.
Ssssooo, you can hardly call me inexperienced in the 190 series or even a bad 190 pilot.
Simple fact of the matter is, the plane and the guns are not broke. You have to fly it appropriately. Just because *SOME* players are having problems with the guns, does not equate to the guns being broke. I'm willing to bet that they are expecting the D9 to aim like the A5.
I like how you and DejaVu always seem to think posting your stats will prove something. I guess you're the gold standard for aircraft performance?
I think the Dora is modeled well in flight characteristics. Gunnery seems off. Trying to find some ballistic info on MG151. Doesn't seem that they should drop as much as they do under 500m.
[This message has been edited by Raubvogel (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Originally posted by Raubvogel:
I like how you and DejaVu always seem to think posting your stats will prove something. I guess you're the gold standard for aircraft performance?
And your screenshot was a whole lot better..... (http://cwmonkey.virtualave.net/s/net5/nut.gif)
-SW
[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Sorry but the D-9 does not feel right to me, from what I have read and from what I see when I fly it the 2 do not match up. The 151 was a devastating 20mm cannon, in here, it is a pin salamander. I feel we should get the MG 151/15 High ROF High velocity and a nice devastating round. We need this gun, if not in the wings at least an option for gun pods. I know you will spout back where is your data to confirm its use in such and such and such and such. Or whether it was used with this ammo mainly or did its creator have an affair. No matter how we look at it, we cannot model things 100% accurately, add prototypes in here, that flew and did see combat. I am all for it, make the game a real challenge, most in here fly the planes do to facination with a certain countries plane set or a particular model. Envisioning and possibly taking on a roll in a less dangerous environment the real pilots had to fly in. Have you ever heard radio chatter where you here 1 guy in the tower giving the other clearance to land and at what runway and stuff like that? These were grown men, acting out what it was like. Adding a new role to the game, some see it as a furball to get more kills or pad stats, for me it is being able to fly luftwaffe AC. I wold love to find a sim that would add Jets or add the what if planes or early model what if planes. You can't fault some for this, nor can I fault anyone who wants a Mk XIV spitfire, unless it is for the sole purpose of making it easier to get more kills. I understnad why people onlly fly certain planes what I dont like is seeing all their kills in the best planes. What is the challenge? If I get shot down by one of those early war birds damn right I will give them a GK!! So whatever reason you are here flying, I have shared with you what I look for, if we get the planes great, but if they don't live up to expectations well sometimes you feel slighted. As to the reason you sometimes see heated posts. In all honesty if they added the HE-219 or ME-410 you better believe that would be hte only plane I flew no matter how crappy they were. Only time I have ever been able to fly one was in EAW, and SWOTL!! Take a minute and assess why you fly this game, and then take another one and think of why others fly. Sometimes our goals are different, as gamers we conquer everything and sims will get boring sometimes to quick, were the parent company cannot react quickly enough to keep the customers happy. We have to keep ideas fresh for them and not limit it to the old standard, step above that and say lets do something different, somethng no one else ever has before and see where it goes. Yikes this is rather long sorry for this Naudet, in 4 words I agree with you!
Salute
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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edit:not worth my time.
[This message has been edited by Raubvogel (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Hehehehehe (http://cwmonkey.virtualave.net/s/net6/thefinger_red.gif)
hehehehehe
-SW
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S!
Here is an analysis of the 190 by an American Ace. He is talking about the 190A, but many of the comments re. fighting the aircraft are applicable to the 190D. His tech figures are for the 190A3
>>>>>>>>>
The Best of the Breed
Airpower, July, 1976 Vol. 6 No. 4
by Col. "Kit" Carson
Part 2 (continued)
General Characteristics
FW-190A
A superb airplane, every inch a fighter. It could do a half roll at cruising speed in one second. Taking this in conjunction with the airplane's high top speed and rate of climb one expected its pilots to exploit its high speed qualities to the fullest without staying in there to "mix it up" in a low speed, flaps down full throttle, gut wrenching dog fight.
They did. The 190 pilots had a good airplane and some good advice. Nearly all of my encounters with the 190 were at high speeds. On at least two occasions when I met them, in my Mustang started porpoising, which means I was into compressibility, probably around 550 mph. I don't know what my air speed indicator was reading, I wasn't watching it.
On another occasion, I jumped one directly over the city of Paris and fired all my ammo, but he was only smoking heavily after a long chase over the town. Assuming I was getting 10 percent hits, that airplane must have had 200 holes in it. It was a rugged machine.
Mean weight 8580
Engine BMW 801D
Horsepower 1600
Power loading, lbs./HP 5.36
Wing loading, lbs./sq.ft. 41.7
Prop diameter, ft. 10.86
Wing Geometry
Area, sq.ft. 205
Span, ft. 34.5
Mean chord, ft. 5.95
Aspect Ratio 5.8
Dihedral, degrees 5
Sweepback, degrees 5.5
Root chord, ft. 7.45
Tip chord, ft. 4.05
Thickness Ratio, percent 12
Maximum thickness location Between 25 and 30 percent
Top speed, mph 408/20,600 ft.
Engine and Propeller
The BMW 801D was a 14 cylinder, twin row radial with direct fuel injection. A 10.9 foot diameter, 3-bladed VDM prop was used and was provided with hand lever or automatic pitch control. The 801D radial air cooled engine first appeared on the Dornier 217 and the Fw-190. Its most novel feature was the oil cooler system which was a number of finned tubes shaped into a ring of tubes a little larger in diameter than the cooling fan. This ring was fitted into the rounded front portion of the cowling just aft of the fan.
I don't think this was a good idea. For example, my principal aiming point was always the forward portion of an enemy ship; the engine, cockpit, wing root section. If you get any hits at all, even only a few, you're bound to put one or two slugs into the engine compartment. Having a couple of bullets riccochet off the engine block and tear up some ignition harness is not too bad at all, at least not fatal. But to have all those thin-walled oil cooling tubes ahead of the engine is bad news. Any hits or riccochets in the engine section are bound to puncture the oil tubes. Then the whole engine is immersed in oil spray, and sometimes it would flash over into a fire. All of the 12 Focke-Wulfs that I shot down sent off a trail of dense, boiling oil smoke heavy enough to fog up my gun camera lens and windshield if I were so close.
Wings and Controls
Again, as in the case of the Me-109, no trim tabs adjustable in flight from the cockpit were provided for the aileron and rudder. European designers seem to have acquired the notion that this was a nuisance or unnecessary. Not at all; when going into a dive, it's very easy for the pilot to reach down with his left hand and flick in a couple of half turns of rudder trim. It's not only desireable but necessary to eliminate side slip for good gunnery. The Fw-190, however, did have electric trim tabs for the elevators.
Performance Evaluation
The Fw-190's handling qualities were generally excellent. The most impressive feature was the aileron control at high speeds. Stick force per "g" was about 9 pounds up to 300 mph rising to 12 pounds at 400 mph as compared to over 20 pounds for the Me-109.
High speed stalls under "g" load were a little vicious and could be a fatal handicap in combat. If the airplane was pulled in tight and stalled at high speed at 2 "gs" or more with the power on, turning right or left, the left wing would drop violently without warning and the airplane would flick onto its back from a left turn. I scored against a 190 under such circumstances. The message was clear, don't stall it. Our own Bell Aircobra P-39 would do the same thing.
Fighting Qualities
Excellent high speed, with exceptional maneuverability at those speeds. Range and endurance were markedly improved over the 109. The Focke-Wulf would go 3 hours plus. Visibility with the full view canopy was superb, as it was in the Mustang.
Summary
Bad points:
(1) Oil cooling tubes at the front of the engines was a poor choice of location. A puncture due to combat damage, or to simple failure covered the engine section with an oil spray.
(2) Lack of aileron and rudder trim controls in the cockpit.
(3) Vicious high speed snap rolls if stalled under significant "g" load.
(4) Poor turning radius due to high wing loading.
Good points:
Everything else was good. In the hands of a competent pilot the 190 was a formidable opponent. The landing approach speed was high and this shakes some pilots up a bit, but I don't think it's anything it's anything to complain about.
End of "Best of the Breed" Part II to be continued....(Ju88 and Me110)
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S!
Just noticed his figures for wing area are wrong. Should be 197 Sq. ft.
I have seen these figures for wing area on some other U.S. tests and I think it relates to a different standard of measurement.
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Ok i will try to use all good advice given in this post, when i fly the next time.
And dont expect me to turn aaround when someone calls out "DoRun", i will ignore everyything like this and say to myself "u do the right thing" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I have pretty much flown the Dora exclusively since it was introduced. To me, its guns suck. Whether or not this is right or wrong, I don't know. I am not an expert by anyone's definition on German aircraft guns. Then again, they are working for me. I will say this though, compared to the 50's and Hispanozookas, the guns on the Dora leave a lot to be desired with respect to ballistics.
As for turn fighting the Dora, I do it quite a bit, and as a result, I die quite a bit. The main reason that I won't turn fight in it like I do the hog, is the crappy snapshot properties of the guns/nose/alignment of the stars/whatever that the plane seems to have. All that being said, I find myself starting to fly and fight in it much smarter than I ever did in any plane previously. I gain much more alt before entering a fight. I keep my speed up. I disengage (run for the cynics out there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) when I lose the advantage (well, I try too, most of the time). I have reached a point where there is not a single plane that I won't engage (unlike when I was flying the D Hog and Cat and would try and run from Nikis).
Oh well, I started to ramble, time to stop (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-math
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Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S!
Just noticed his figures for wing area are wrong. Should be 197 Sq. ft.
I have seen these figures for wing area on some other U.S. tests and I think it relates to a different standard of measurement.
When measuring wing area; you can take the planform area of the wing only, or you can also include the (plan)area of fuselage "in between" the wings.
If you examine a plane like the F-15 you see an example of how this could be a significant matter.
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Guys, there are ways to use fighters like the Dora, that does NOT mean making 5 gun passes on a much lower enemy and then running away when you get down to "only" a 2k alt advantage. Or taking a HO pass then running for the hills.
Unfortunately this is the way that alot of people are fighting the Dora and this is whats giving it a bad name in the arena.
And no, I'm not talking about turnfighting it. You can get in the fight, and stay in the fight for quite some time before you have to turn and run.
Dora pilots do not have to be "Hunstangs" or "DoRuns". They just need to learn how.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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OK Verm show me how to and i will fly it right, always willing to learn.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Dora pilots do not have to be "Hunstangs" or "DoRuns". They just need to learn how.
LOL!!
I look at Vermillion--And what do I see (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
He says the same as I used to say about the Mustangs "they only run because they have no idea on how to fight".
Verm, is not the plane. It is simply that the previous versions P51 runstang dweebs now run in the D-9 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by R4M:
Verm, is not the plane. It is simply that the previous versions P51 runstang dweebs now run in the D-9 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
That's funny, I've run after and caught a lot of "dedicated" Luftwieners on the deck because they blew whatever advantage they had. (http://www.mysmilies.com/s/otn/funny/fruit.gif)
-SW
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Originally posted by StSanta:
I doubt that such a large and dedicated group of 190 drivers are merely whining here.
I dont. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sling322
Not a Monitor!
Fat Drunk Bastards
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
That's funny, I've run after and caught a lot of "dedicated" Luftwieners on the deck because they blew whatever advantage they had. (http://www.mysmilies.com/s/otn/funny/fruit.gif)
-SW
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I dont say ALL the running doras are ex-runstang dweebs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Simply we are enjoying now our part of glory ehhehhehehehe.
(Not me, the only stupid one who will turn around to fight 2-1 odds, alone and damaged. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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In fact E-bleeding is a good thing in hi-speed turns, you know why?...
You decelerate faster,so you turn tighter. If the enemy plane is a good E-retainer, you can actually turn inside it if the speeds involved are high enough
Field Marshall von RAMstein you are getting wise in your old age. That is a very good observation. If both planes are above their corner speed, the one that can slow down quicker to his corner speed can get some angles.
Of course a crafty Spitfire pilot will realize this and cut his throttle to stay on your tail. But fortunately they aren't all wise. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by funked:
Of course a crafty Spitfire pilot will realize this and cut his throttle to stay on your tail. But fortunately they aren't all wise. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hehe Funked...dont give the masses a good idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Anyway not much people I know do chop throttle on the offensive. Why?, because those guys who know that the 190 will turn inside them at hispeeds because the E-bleeding, know too that E is life and they will do a high yoyo before chopping thottle and try to follow the turn. THat is good because wins you time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Of course, the Spit can chop throttle, but then the D9 better acceleration and better E bleed both will pay its dividends, levelling the E states if neccesary...or bleeding the E needed to force an overshoot. And you still are rolling and jerking around, so you wont be an easy target.
And lastly, the 190 can chop throttle too. And it will bleed E faster than the spit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). Its not a particularly good move on the defensive unless you are almost sure that you will force an overshoot with it; because it will drag ur speed under 200IAS and that is NOT good for the 190 as I've said quite many times (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Yes, I agree, there is a risk in chopping the throttle. I won't do it unless I know we are alone and my E state won't matter if I can kill the guy quickly.
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best way of dealing with a D9 is letting him saddle up. then you fly straight and level. As he gets to within 150, guns blasing, he'll run outta ammo. he'llbe so frustrated that he'll try to ram you. use the net lag to your advantage and cause a collision on his FE only.
Enjoy the "aaaaaaaaargh d9 guns are porked" with the "no it's not" responses on ch1.
A8 I can hit with, D9 is a no go (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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No thread hijacking you loosewaffle! This is about turning ability, not the guns.
Begone to the D9 guns thread!
(Or maybe offline to do some tests...)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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I've noticed that if the DORA does blow it, running away is often difficult, despite its high speed.
Compared to the P-51 (either version), the 190D bleeds E badly. Both the D-9 and the P-51 have roughly equal diving ability. Several times, I've run down the "faster" D-9 in my P-51 because they slowed down faster after trying to dive away. In fact, I think every kill of a D-9 I have (save 1) was in this situation.
IMO diving away is NOT a good option for a D-9 driver, at least not from P-51's.
That E-bleed is what makes the D-9 difficult to fly--it NEEDS energy to stay effective, yet it bleeds it quickly.
J_A_B
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Lephturn wrote:
No thread hijacking you loosewaffle! This is about turning ability, not the guns.
Begone to the D9 guns thread!
(Or maybe offline to do some tests...)
Tests? *GASP* what a novel concept!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure