Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: saggs on March 22, 2010, 02:58:05 AM
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Just finally got around to watching the Bahrain GP. I had been excited for the 2010 season, new teams, 4 world champions on the grid, finally a US team. I was very disappointed when USF1 went south. Now, after watching the first race with the no refueling rule all I can say is YAWN.
Now the whole grid starts with very heavy cars and fresh tires, (slow) and ends with light cars and very worn tires (slow). The fastest race lap was 5 seconds slower then qualifying. Without the mix of heavy/light fuel and fresh/worn tires on cars on the track simultaneously, like you got with more pits and refueling. It's just... well... dull.
It's always exciting when you get someone with who pits late, splash o'fuel, fresh tires and off to chase down the others who pitted earlier and are trying to hold it together on worn tires and fumes. Now with everybody pitting once, and at near the same time, I can't see exciting chases like that happening near as often. After the first lap I don't recall a single pass among the top 10 (well until Vettel broke down). It was just a long series of procession laps.
And except for Lotus the new teams seem like a joke, just grid position fillers almost. Most of them made it less then 5 laps before they're cars broke, I hope they can pull it together somewhat.
I'll keep watching and hope it gets more exciting, but with the new fuel rule, I'm not holding my breath.
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Same here, it was just a procession, nothing to break the race up and inject an element of excitement, in the UK the race is on just after sunday lunch and I have trouble staying awake as it is. :old:
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Well it was the first race with these rules for the drivers also. They had really no idea what would happen and therefor were a lot more carefull.
At least this is what I'm hoping. Otherwise we are in for a long season of nothing.
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The Bahrain track is hardly the ideal track to start with the new rules. I might wait and see after Melbourne this weekend, but I've never thought the refueling ban was a great idea...I'm all for the possibilities refueling stops bring and the strategy it allows.
All the new teams are miles behind and will struggle to even catch up to the tail end older teams. Force India is still showing some great pace but it took them a couple of years to get to the top of the second sphere of teams, let alone a team like Virgin Racing.
Tronsky
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The real problem is the aero. The cars can't get close enough to pass without destroying their tyres. As it stands, the drivers tend to hang 1.5 sec behind the car in front to aviod the dirty air.
If they would drop the front wing down, limit the size of the diffusor, and allow a wider and higher rear wing we might see some passing again.
They also need to allow wider cars.
I think the fuel rule would be great if they could get the rest of the rules sorted out.
It looks like the teams and the FIA are getting together to try and "improve the show." They may mandate two tyre stops at some point this season. I don't see how that would create more passing when the real problem is aero related.
I'm afraid that the only passing we will see is at low down force tracks like Monza.
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The real problem is the aero. The cars can't get close enough to pass without destroying their tyres. As it stands, the drivers tend to hang 1.5 sec behind the car in front to aviod the dirty air.
If they would drop the front wing down, limit the size of the diffusor, and allow a wider and higher rear wing we might see some passing again.
They also need to allow wider cars.
I think the fuel rule would be great if they could get the rest of the rules sorted out.
It looks like the teams and the FIA are getting together to try and "improve the show." They may mandate two tyre stops at some point this season. I don't see how that would create more passing when the real problem is aero related.
I'm afraid that the only passing we will see is at low down force tracks like Monza.
Good point, for a while there it looked like Alonso had the speed and was gonna put a move on Vettel. But as soon as he closed into that dirty air, his car overheated, his tires went south in a big hurry, and he dropped way back.
So how is anyone supposed to pass the leader, when he's the only one with clean air?
I remember some great duels with Schumacher/Hakkinen back in the day, the wake coming off the car in front didn't seem to bother them back then. I remember a great pass by Hakkinen, where he was right up Schumi's rear, drafting till the last minute, when he put on and awesome fake on him and blew past. Haven't seen stuff like that for a few years now.
In the post-race interviews it seemed like most of the drivers -I recall Button and Schumacher especially- where not to keen on the new rules.
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F1 fans, what do you think of the new fuel rule?
I think what Mosely started is finally finished.
Long live the last Golden Era: Mika v. Michael.
F1 is dead.
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Well I just hope that it isnt dead. Formla has been the top of the racing community for years. They will need to change the rules, and I am sure that they will. I will continue to watch, but I just hope that they dont try and schedule across from the Lemans series, until they get everything straighten out I will be there.
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i watch F1 Racing since the '80 especialy the Senna, Prost time,
That time they also didnt refueld, just new tires where aloved.
(Hint: Schumi started racing '91, that time it was also no refueling allowed!)
I didnt understand why they made the refuel ruel in the mid '90 at all,
the Races where great without it! Refueling just disturb the raceing,
because not everyone starts with the same fuel, and this leads to distortions
in the racing order, it ends in just who makes the better Pit-Stop :/
Finaly we have what i think real racing from the start to finish, equal for
everyone. I dont care if the pace is little slower then in qualify, its still
crazy fast. Bahrain was just the start into a exiting season!!
I like Vettel, i think he is the coming superstar, but since Schumi is back
and as a former Schumi-fan (he is the same age then me ;)
i have to wave the Mercedes Flag now ! ;)
R
Gh0stFT
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i watch F1 Racing since the '80 especialy the Senna, Prost time,
That time they also didnt refueld, just new tires where aloved.
(Hint: Schumi started racing '91, that time it was also no refueling allowed!)
I didnt understand why they made the refuel ruel in the mid '90 at all,
the Races where great without it! Refueling just disturb the raceing,
because not everyone starts with the same fuel, and this leads to distortions
in the racing order, it ends in just who makes the better Pit-Stop :/
Finaly we have what i think real racing from the start to finish, equal for
everyone. I dont care if the pace is little slower then in qualify, its still
crazy fast. Bahrain was just the start into a exiting season!!
I like Vettel, i think he is the coming superstar, but since Schumi is back
and as a former Schumi-fan (he is the same age then me ;)
i have to wave the Mercedes Flag now ! ;)
R
Gh0stFT
Yes, but as edog very astutely pointed out, the cars were very different back then. Different aerodynamics, superchargers.
Back then I remember watching the sparks fly off the asphalt when the undercarriage would scrape they were so low. I realize the changes have made it much safer, but they have to do something to get some more wheel to wheel dueling going on.
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Ghostft I started watching F1 about the same time as you. The Senna, Prost battles were epic. I first started watching Shumi when he drove for Beneton (sp?) Ford. I've been watching him ever since. I'm hoping that he will truly be competitive after such a long absence. I am hoping that the new rules do promote better racing, but I have to admit that the first race was a bit of a snoozer. I'll hold out declaring it dead just yet, but it is most definitely in the ambulance. Let's see what the rest of the season brings. Hopefully there will be some closer races where the passing can happen on the track.
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Ghostft I started watching F1 about the same time as you. The Senna, Prost battles were epic. I first started watching Shumi when he drove for Beneton (sp?) Ford. I've been watching him ever since. I'm hoping that he will truly be competitive after such a long absence. I am hoping that the new rules do promote better racing, but I have to admit that the first race was a bit of a snoozer. I'll hold out declaring it dead just yet, but it is most definitely in the ambulance. Let's see what the rest of the season brings. Hopefully there will be some closer races where the passing can happen on the track.
The Prost era was before my time, I started following F1 around 2000.
I predict it will take Schumi 3-4 races to get back to his old form. Though I doubt he will ever be as good as he was in his prime. I honestly don't think he'll contend for the drivers cup ever again. The human mind deteriorates, and reaction times slow down as you get older, it's just a fact of life. I doubt even Michael Schumacher is immune to that.
I just looked up a race that Brundle mentioned in '94 where he finished 2nd, despite having only 5th gear in his Ford for over half the race, and he got better fuel economy. :lol :lol That's amazing driving.
Or the race in 2002 I think, where he did 4 stops, all the other leaders did only 2 stops, and he still won by several seconds. And he still holds most of the track records on the circuit. I know some don't like him, but you cannot deny that in his prime he simply dominated everyone.
Now let's take bets on how long before someone comes here whining that Schumi is a dirty cheater and proclaiming Ayrton Senna is a demigod. :bolt:
BTW I think Senna was great too, but we'll never know it he could have dominated like MS.
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saggs, i was a hughe Senna Fan, but then '94 Imola, his fatal crash, everything ended/changed.
My interest in F1 stopped, the Monster F1 started to eat his own kids, it took almost 1 year until i started
to enjoy F1 racing again. You cant compare both drivers, both where just great drivers in theyr time.
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Yes, but as edog very astutely pointed out, the cars were very different back then. Different aerodynamics, superchargers.
Back then I remember watching the sparks fly off the asphalt when the undercarriage would scrape they were so low. I realize the changes have made it much safer, but they have to do something to get some more wheel to wheel dueling going on.
Superchargers? Forced induction was banned in 1989 and - as far as I remember - manufacturers exclusively used turbochargers from 1977 until the ban in '89.
Aerodynamics have been the major limiting factor in overtaking for as long as I've been seriously following F1 and that's getting on for 20 years. TBH, I can't remember a time when people didn't complain about the lack of overtaking in F1.
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Here is an interesting post on overtaking in F1. It focuses on this season, but has some historical data has well
http://www.cliptheapex.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1482
Here is the part that surprised me:
Sakhir 2010 - 21 Passes
"These figures do not include positions gained in the pits, position changes on the first lap of the race, or gained when a car has a serious technical problem (e.g. puncture, accident damage etc.)"
It looks like there were only three passes by drivers in point paying positions, although there was plenty of action toward the back of the field. Hulkenburg and Kubica combined made nearly half of the passes. If memory serves me, they both had problems near the start of the race that put them at the back of the field.
One more thought I'd like to throw out there...if the drivers line up at the start from fastest to slowest, why should we expect a lot of passing. If everyone runs a perfect race, the driver who qualifies first should run off into the sunset.
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Yes, but as edog very astutely pointed out, the cars were very different back then. Different aerodynamics, superchargers.
Back then I remember watching the sparks fly off the asphalt when the undercarriage would scrape they were so low. I realize the changes have made it much safer, but they have to do something to get some more wheel to wheel dueling going on.
actually I believe that there were titanium skid plates that gave off the sparks not the actual undercarriage. But I agree with you. I loved the firework shows.
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saggs, i was a hughe Senna Fan, but then '94 Imola, his fatal crash, everything ended/changed.
My interest in F1 stopped, the Monster F1 started to eat his own kids, it took almost 1 year until i started
to enjoy F1 racing again. You cant compare both drivers, both where just great drivers in theyr time.
Agreed, I wasn't trying to compare them. I was poking fun at all the endless pointless debates of people who do.
Superchargers? Forced induction was banned in 1989 and - as far as I remember - manufacturers exclusively used turbochargers from 1977 until the ban in '89.
Aerodynamics have been the major limiting factor in overtaking for as long as I've been seriously following F1 and that's getting on for 20 years. TBH, I can't remember a time when people didn't complain about the lack of overtaking in F1.
My bad, I was thinking turbo, but typed super. I had thought they were in use till the mid '90s. I'm sure your right, like I said that's before my time.
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Some good posts. :salute
What I would like to see is less people over the wall making pit stops longer and less little aerodynamic devices on the cars. Indy type cars are 'cleaner' and though still effected by the preceding car are still able to pass.
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reverse grid :aok :bolt:
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reverse grid :aok :bolt:
LoL. I hope they never introduce a rule like that. You never know though, here is a recent quote from Bernie Ecclestone:
“It would be very easy for us, on each circuit, to have an area where you could gain a lot of time, so you could overtake,” he said. “You can imagine a short cut if you like, which a driver can use five times during a race, so it will stop people getting stuck behind somebody."
Of course Bernie was joking around...or was he. :noid
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reverse grid was added to Australian V8 supercars in the sprint format ( 3 short fast races throughout the day ) grid for the first race was based on qualifying, second race the first 10 finishers of the first race were put in reverse grid and the third race in the order the second race was finished. The day was then judged on points across the three races. The second race was always a cracker.
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they need some NASCAR rules, lots of yeller flags, small fuel tanks, tires that need changed after 20 laps, floor jacks and 5 lug nut wheels, and more yeller flags.
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Now let's take bets on how long before someone comes here whining that Schumi is a dirty cheater and proclaiming Ayrton Senna is a demigod. :bolt:
BTW I think Senna was great too, but we'll never know it he could have dominated like MS.
Senna dominated but it wasn't all conquering like Schumi was in 2001-'02, but Senna had to contend with powerhouses like Prost, Mansell, Piquet, Berger, and the emergence of Hill and Schumacher.
But he was no less ruthless and competitive than Schumacher as proved by his behaviour with Prost
they need some NASCAR rules, lots of yeller flags, small fuel tanks, tires that need changed after 20 laps, floor jacks and 5 lug nut wheels, and more yeller flags.
F1 and NASCAR are already similar...its all about aero and race strategy
Tronsky
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now who is talking about boring race? :neener:
WOW what a great race in Melbourne, up to the last few rounds!
But no fortune for Vettel again :cry aaargh
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Great race in Aus.
Luis must have been totally peeved after what happened.
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so apparently all we need for good F1 racing is ... rain! :lol
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^ That or a couple of top drivers relagated to the rear of the field on the first lap. Lewis and Alonso were passing people left and right, at least unitll they caught up to the faster cars.
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Well I've been a fan of F1 for some time too! I recall watching a much reveared driver from Canada get killed on my birthday!
This new season and rules are too young to make a reasonable statement on,I recall last year and M'claren was nowhere to be found then around race 10 things changed. So I'd like to see 3 or 4 more races before I make any judgements.
While the first race was a bit of a snoozer the Austrailian race was full of passing, crashes,failures and the usual F1 sillyness.What I found real amazing is the fact that the lap record was smashed this year in qualifying,this leads us back to Aero again,because it isnt power!!
I heard that Shummie said if they allowed the drivers to control the rear wing similar to the front wing that even more passing could happen,this is something I'd like to see.
We'll have to get back to this sometime around August or September and see how the season progresses.
:salute
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Just watched Australia, good race.
I thought that Button was completely mental coming in for slicks when he did, but it paid off.
Poor Vettel must be pissed, robbed of 2 wins in a row by reliability problems. He obviously has the skill to be a world champion, just needs a car that will finish a race without breaking.
And Micheal Schumacher, 7 time world champion... unable to pass some guy I've never heard of for half the race. That doesn't bode well at all for his comeback, perhaps those synapses just can't fire as quick as they used to. I can't imagine the Schumi from 5 yrs ago having that kind of trouble, and you can't blame the car as Rosberg is driving better then him. Also Alonso and Hamilton had no problems climbing back through the field from the back. I hope Schumi can get back to his old form, but he's definitely not there now.
Honestly though my biggest shock so far is David Coulthard's BBC commentary, he's so serious... what happen?? Did the BBC brainwash him or something?? I miss all of his outrageous comedic interview responses, and general laid back attitude from when he was a driver, he seems to have a whole different personality now that he's on the other side of the mic.
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Formula 1 is the best racing there is and I cannot get enough of it.
Todd
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LOL Qualify for the 3rd Race Malaysia 2010 just finished, almost reversed Grid! :D
oh man this was a thrilla qualifying under wet conditions:
1 Webber Red Bull
2 Rosberg Mercedes
3 Vettel Red Bull
4 Sutil Force India
5 Hülkenberg Williams
6 Kubica Renault
7 Barrichello Williams
8 Schumacher Mercedes
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17 Button McLaren
18 Trulli Lotus
19 Alonso Ferrari
20 Hamilton McLaren
21 Massa Ferrari
i cant wait to see the start tomorrow!! :x
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Because of the rain delay my DVR ended with 3 mins left on final qualifying!!
Tronsky
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Finally Vettel's car lasted for the win.
I gotta say that he's my favorite for the championship, if his car is reliable that is. I know it's still early but to think Vettel would have all 3 wins so far if his car hadn't broken in the first two.
Oh and Alonso's engine blowing up on the last lap. :rofl :rofl