Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BnZs on March 27, 2010, 08:59:48 PM

Title: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: BnZs on March 27, 2010, 08:59:48 PM
Just tested it.

With the governor on, the F.1 Camel with 25% fuel had a max level speed of 109 IAS/114 TAS @ 3K.

With the governor *off* the F.1 Camel with 25% fuel had a max level speed of 109 IAS/114 TAS @ 3K.

With all due respect, I appreciate why the thing exists for playability purposes, but since turning it on represents such a reduction in pilot workload, I think it would be only fair and appropriate if it reduced top level speed performance by a significant amount, say on the order of 5-10%.

Thank you, that is all.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Miska on March 27, 2010, 09:18:01 PM
Is the governor on by default on all planes? If so, how do we turn it off?
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: BnZs on March 27, 2010, 09:20:11 PM
Options-Preferences-Flight.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: grizz441 on March 27, 2010, 09:28:47 PM
I thought the governor managed risky dive speeds, not safe cruise speeds.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: LLogann on March 27, 2010, 09:31:12 PM
You are correct sir.  Nothing to do with level flight.  It is in order to make sure the fixed rpm's don't exceed it's max tolerance, or top tier redline.

I thought the governor managed risky dive speeds, not safe cruise speeds.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: BnZs on March 27, 2010, 10:48:55 PM
Hmm...okay, that is correct. Here is what the information page says.

"This will limit your engine to its nominal rating and prevent you from overspeeding it in most conditions. The advantage to not using the governor is that you can run your RPM higher than the governor giving you more power in high rpm situations. The governor is defaulted to on."

This is not sufficient disadvantage to using it, IMO, considering the benefit in workload, dive speeds fast enough to overspeed the engine are for the most part bad news in WWI planes anyway.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Krusty on March 27, 2010, 10:52:51 PM
IMO it should not make or break a fight. It should only be there for those that like that aspect of it.

Might say the same for manual trim vs combat trim, or auto takeoff vs manual takeoff.

I'm not saying I endorse a policy of making game features that do everything for you, but were you expecting to win more fights because you were over-revving the engine? Not a very logical point of view.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: kvuo75 on March 28, 2010, 01:12:33 AM
IMO it should not make or break a fight. It should only be there for those that like that aspect of it.

Might say the same for manual trim vs combat trim, or auto takeoff vs manual takeoff.


I dont wanna get into a big deal, but doesn't having "stall limiter" on/off already make/break fights??

Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: BaldEagl on March 28, 2010, 01:32:12 AM
When my engine starts going bang bang bang bang I know I'm getting the most out of it instead of when it's going whirrrrrrrrrrr, but then again I might not be flying much longer.  At least I have the option.

Go back and test dive speeds.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: guncrasher on March 28, 2010, 02:19:02 AM
Just tested it.

With the governor on, the F.1 Camel with 25% fuel had a max level speed of 109 IAS/114 TAS @ 3K.

With the governor *off* the F.1 Camel with 25% fuel had a max level speed of 109 IAS/114 TAS @ 3K.

With all due respect, I appreciate why the thing exists for playability purposes, but since turning it on represents such a reduction in pilot workload, I think it would be only fair and appropriate if it reduced top level speed performance by a significant amount, say on the order of 5-10%.

Thank you, that is all.
5 extra mph/kmh dont really make that much difference unless you are chasing somebody. and if you are already withing gun range, it sure wont make a difference.

semp
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: ImADot on March 28, 2010, 12:30:43 PM
This is not sufficient disadvantage to using it, IMO, considering the benefit in workload

What workload?  All you do is cut back on the throttle a bit during a dive.  Simple and a no-brainer, really.  Unless you (not you BnZ) are one who only knows two settings: closed and full open.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: TW9 on March 28, 2010, 12:50:37 PM

I dont wanna get into a big deal, but doesn't having "stall limiter" on/off already make/break fights??



ya. if u have it on u are pretty much dead  :aok
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Ruler2 on March 28, 2010, 01:34:44 PM

I'm not saying I endorse a policy of making game features that do everything for you, but were you expecting to win more fights because you were over-revving the engine? Not a very logical point of view.

So  is that why we don't have the auto dogfight feature? :rofl

Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Yeager on March 28, 2010, 02:06:50 PM
First thing I did when I installed the new update is make SURE the governor was disabled.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Krusty on March 28, 2010, 02:44:27 PM
So  is that why we don't have the auto dogfight feature? :rofl



It's called the Spitfire  :rofl
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Wmaker on March 29, 2010, 08:23:52 AM
Hmm...okay, that is correct. Here is what the information page says.

"This will limit your engine to its nominal rating and prevent you from overspeeding it in most conditions. The advantage to not using the governor is that you can run your RPM higher than the governor giving you more power in high rpm situations. The governor is defaulted to on."

This is not sufficient disadvantage to using it, IMO, considering the benefit in workload, dive speeds fast enough to overspeed the engine are for the most part bad news in WWI planes anyway.


I couldn't really disagree more. To me, the difference is like night and day already. Anyone using the governor is putting himself to significant disadvantage.

For example, AH's D.VII seems to be modelled after Daimler D.III engine which develops 160hp at 1400rpm. At its maximum allowable rpm of 1600 it puts out roughly 180hp.

Having the governor off makes a world of difference in conserving energy through high speed maneuvers.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Biggles on March 29, 2010, 06:54:44 PM
Having the ability to stall when you want to can be a good thing depending on the situation. :old:

As for the governor, sometimes I turn Linda Lingle on, sometimes I turn her off.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: DrBone1 on March 30, 2010, 12:51:07 AM
I couldn't really disagree more. To me, the difference is like night and day already. Anyone using the governor is putting himself to significant disadvantage.

For example, AH's D.VII seems to be modelled after Daimler D.III engine which develops 160hp at 1400rpm. At its maximum allowable rpm of 1600 it puts out roughly 180hp.

Having the governor off makes a world of difference in conserving energy through high speed maneuvers.
This is very true btw maker i still want that rematch  :)  :salute Wmaker
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: BnZs on March 30, 2010, 01:06:35 AM
I couldn't really disagree more. To me, the difference is like night and day already. Anyone using the governor is putting himself to significant disadvantage.

For example, AH's D.VII seems to be modelled after Daimler D.III engine which develops 160hp at 1400rpm. At its maximum allowable rpm of 1600 it puts out roughly 180hp.

Having the governor off makes a world of difference in conserving energy through high speed maneuvers.

There is notable space between the Daimler's redline rpm and the rpm where it begins knocking though, so I imagine with the D7 the governor would make a large difference. This is not the case with the two rotaries.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Wmaker on March 30, 2010, 08:01:21 AM
There is notable space between the Daimler's redline rpm and the rpm where it begins knocking though, so I imagine with the D7 the governor would make a large difference. This is not the case with the two rotaries.

Yep, the difference is smaller with the rotaries. The only plane I've flown a lot is the D.VII. I did a quick test offline when the WWI came and wasn't able to break Camel's engine by over revving it until I ran out of altitude. Didn't have the patience to climb higher for a new try in blowing it up. :) I'm sure that the over revving is easier to manage in D.VII compared to the rotary engined fighters but I think it's still much more beneficial to have the governor off even in them.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Wmaker on March 30, 2010, 08:02:01 AM
i still want that rematch  :)  :salute Wmaker

<S> Drbone!

Yeh, we have to do that sometime! :)
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: BaldEagl on March 30, 2010, 12:45:23 PM
Yep, the difference is smaller with the rotaries. The only plane I've flown a lot is the D.VII. I did a quick test offline when the WWI came and wasn't able to break Camel's engine by over revving it until I ran out of altitude. Didn't have the patience to climb higher for a new try in blowing it up. :) I'm sure that the over revving is easier to manage in D.VII compared to the rotary engined fighters but I think it's still much more beneficial to have the governor off even in them.

I've mostly flown the Camel and it seems to me if you get the engine knocking for an extended period you'll lose significant power afterward.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: BnZs on March 30, 2010, 02:57:29 PM
I've mostly flown the Camel and it seems to me if you get the engine knocking for an extended period you'll lose significant power afterward.

Hmmm...Hitech, is this true? I was thinking as long as the engine did not blow and quit there was no damage.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: hitech on March 30, 2010, 02:58:35 PM
Hmmm...Hitech, is this true? I was thinking as long as the engine did not blow and quit there was no damage.

BNZ you are correct, no damage if it does not blow.

HiTech
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: 321BAR on March 30, 2010, 03:03:56 PM
Yep, the difference is smaller with the rotaries. The only plane I've flown a lot is the D.VII. I did a quick test offline when the WWI came and wasn't able to break Camel's engine by over revving it until I ran out of altitude. Didn't have the patience to climb higher for a new try in blowing it up. :) I'm sure that the over revving is easier to manage in D.VII compared to the rotary engined fighters but I think it's still much more beneficial to have the governor off even in them.
the DVII gets alot of extra power in the redzone with governor off before it will start overrevving. ive used this to my advantage quite a few times...
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: seano on March 30, 2010, 06:03:46 PM
govenor off= more diving speed
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Agent360 on March 30, 2010, 06:18:14 PM
From the original release notes on WW1
"The advantage to not using the governor is that you can run your RPM higher than the governor giving you more power in high rpm situations"

This is somewhat decieving in that it is NOT always a good thing to have more power in high rpm situations.

In close turn fights it has always been the one who manages both slow and fast energy states that wins.

The problem is that ww1 planes have no sustained climb and very limited zoom climb. Further, because of the fixed prop you end up having the heavily manage the engine throttle in dives.

A side effect of all this is that a player who has to continually reduce throttle to manage rpm's will end up LOOSING energy overall.

My point is that the human player can not effectivly manage the power better than the governer can. Although, with it off you have the potential to get more power, if you reduce your throttle continually...effectivly flying to keep your engine from blowing up you will end up LOOSING your zoom climb and cause unwanted yaw when you do.

With the governer on you can devote all your time to making angles. The engine never blows up, your speed and energy remain contant and you have less cockpit managment to deal with.

If you start yanking the throttle off and on you will loose energy because in ww1 planes the energy state is extremly important and each time you do reduce throttle and the other guy does not he will keep his energy more effeciently than one with governer off and yanking the throttle all the time.

Im my opinion it is nearly impossible for a humane player to feather the throttle in such a way as to take advantage of what the plane can do with the governer off.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: ImADot on March 30, 2010, 06:52:27 PM
So I'm not capable of moving my throttle in small increments to keep from over-revving?  I don't know about anyone else, but MY airplane has more throttle settings than fully closed or fully open.  It's not hard or an encumberence to manage the little bit of throttle needed.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: BnZs on March 30, 2010, 06:53:40 PM
Hmmm...worried that this might be the case.

From the original release notes on WW1
"The advantage to not using the governor is that you can run your RPM higher than the governor giving you more power in high rpm situations"

This is somewhat decieving in that it is NOT always a good thing to have more power in high rpm situations.

In close turn fights it has always been the one who manages both slow and fast energy states that wins.

The problem is that ww1 planes have no sustained climb and very limited zoom climb. Further, because of the fixed prop you end up having the heavily manage the engine throttle in dives.

A side effect of all this is that a player who has to continually reduce throttle to manage rpm's will end up LOOSING energy overall.

My point is that the human player can not effectivly manage the power better than the governer can. Although, with it off you have the potential to get more power, if you reduce your throttle continually...effectivly flying to keep your engine from blowing up you will end up LOOSING your zoom climb and cause unwanted yaw when you do.

With the governer on you can devote all your time to making angles. The engine never blows up, your speed and energy remain contant and you have less cockpit managment to deal with.

If you start yanking the throttle off and on you will loose energy because in ww1 planes the energy state is extremly important and each time you do reduce throttle and the other guy does not he will keep his energy more effeciently than one with governer off and yanking the throttle all the time.

Im my opinion it is nearly impossible for a humane player to feather the throttle in such a way as to take advantage of what the plane can do with the governer off.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Agent360 on March 30, 2010, 07:14:00 PM
So I'm not capable of moving my throttle in small increments to keep from over-revving?  I don't know about anyone else, but MY airplane has more throttle settings than fully closed or fully open.  It's not hard or an encumberence to manage the little bit of throttle needed.

I am pointing out that the stated "advantage" that the governer off gives you is so slim that the human can't TAKE ADVANTAGE of it. The human ends up loosing energy over all compared to letting the COMPUTER (ie governer) control the  engine.

I did not say that a "human" can't manage the throttle. I did say that the human cant do it as effectivly as the governer.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Toad on March 30, 2010, 07:15:45 PM
I kinda like hearing the engine knocking.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Miska on March 30, 2010, 09:12:40 PM
MY airplane has more throttle settings than fully closed or fully open.

Two of the four WWI aircraft shouldn't have any other setting than fully closed or fully open, unless a choke is introduced.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: BaldEagl on March 31, 2010, 12:14:43 AM
So I'm not capable of moving my throttle in small increments to keep from over-revving?  I don't know about anyone else, but MY airplane has more throttle settings than fully closed or fully open.  It's not hard or an encumberence to manage the little bit of throttle needed.

The Camel only has a very limited number of throttle settings (large increments) compared to the D7 which seems to have continuous adjustment (small increments).  Maybe 2-3 between fully opened and closed vs 7-10 (just a for instance to illustrate the point).
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: 321BAR on March 31, 2010, 06:29:52 AM
Two of the four WWI aircraft shouldn't have any other setting than fully closed or fully open, unless a choke is introduced.
the choke is the throttle. check the signs inside the cockpit and see where they go :aok
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Miska on March 31, 2010, 06:00:36 PM
I haven't tried the Dr1 or the Camel, but the choke should allow only a very limited variation of power through changing the mixture.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: Krusty on March 31, 2010, 06:01:58 PM
The engines actually do "step down" like the real thing, but the sound ramps down linearly. It's a cosmetic issue, reported right away when first noticed.
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: snagdoa on April 07, 2010, 09:28:30 AM
Having the ability to stall when you want to can be a good thing depending on the situation. :old:

As for the governor, sometimes I turn Linda Lingle on, sometimes I turn her off.

 :cry :cry :cry I have the ability to stall all the time though LOL
Title: Re: WWI Engine Governor
Post by: BaldEagl on April 07, 2010, 10:17:30 AM
I've been using the gevernor the last couple of times I've been in the WWI arena and I actually kind of like it.  While I haven't noticed the changes in speed affecting the outcomes of my fights it has stopped me from ripping the wings off my new favorite WWI bird in a dive, the F2B.