Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: lengro on March 28, 2010, 12:49:23 PM
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When you press CTRL+X you toggle between combat trim and trim off.
In the trim off state, the trim axis's do not go to their center position - I would like an option to make this possible.
It could be implemented as an alternative "combat trim / trim off and recenter"-toggle
That is my wish :aok
(the above do not apply if you map trim to analogue controllers - disabling combat trim in that case puts trim at its analogue controllers current position)
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Maybe I should elaborate a bit:
IMO combat trim is a bit like the steering assistance you can enable in most racing sims:
In a racing sim:
Steering assistance dynamically manipulate controller input to reduce the needed input to stay on the optimal path on the track.
In AH:
Combat trim dynamically manipulate controller input to reduce the needed input for straight flying at any speed.
Now, in many situations the above systems are very helpfull and as such, needed features.
But, there a times when I in AH - especially in a hard knife fight - want to know that:
what my plane does right now is ONLY a result of my controllers deflection from center position AND forces acting on plane.
(I want to disable the little invincible pilot who at the same time manipulate rudder, elevator and ailerons a bit)
As it is today, when I disable combat trim, I have to locate the trim gauges in the cockpit and then move all three until they are at there center position. It would be nice to could do this with just a push of a:
"combat trim/neutral trim"-toggle
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So you want to be able to "zero" all trim axis with the push of a button...like is done in IL2.
Not sure how good of an option this would be...trim settings don't change instantaneously in AH so even if it was an option you would have to wait for all trim axis to center...why would you want centered trim settings in a fight anyway? Have you ever manually centered all trim axis? You can't let go of your stick unless you're using auto-pilot.
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So you want to be able to "zero" all trim axis with the push of a button...like is done in IL2.
Exactly
Not sure how good of an option this would be...trim settings don't change instantaneously in AH so even if it was an option you would have to wait for all trim axis to center...
If you map trim settings to analogue controllers they actually do change instantly when you go from manual trim to combat trim.
But not from combat trim to manual trim. (I never understood why HT made that difference.)
However, the wait is only a few secs, that is not a problem for me.
why would you want centered trim settings in a fight anyway? Have you ever manually centered all trim axis? You can't let go of your stick unless you're using auto-pilot.
In 1vs1 duels I often fly with manual centered trim (if I have time to set it up that is), constantly working with the controllers - in this case I don't want a dynamic trim system to interfere in the fight.
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Len,
Have you checked the "trim set" command? I believe it's default period{.}
I'm not sure it's what your asking for but I thought maybe you could try it and see if it helps.
:salute
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Len,
Have you checked the "trim set" command? I believe it's default period{.}
I'm not sure it's what your asking for but I thought maybe you could try it and see if it helps.
:salute
Hi Morf :salute
yeah - I know the trim set command, it takes your current controller deflections and dials them into the corresponding trim axis's - thus letting you release controllers while maintaining the planes state.
However, it can't be used to center trim settings.
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Lengro can you prove that just because the trim bars are not centered they are having an effect?
Setting trim bars in the center is not necessarily setting them to have no effect. Depending on the speed and alt your flying at.
You may be better off cycling CT on and off then forget about them.
Either way its going to be hard to prove. The influence is so small compared to stick.
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[EDIT: I'm not sure if this sounds like I'm trying to be difficult or anything. I'm not trying to be. Rather than re-type it I'll just add a comment saying "sorry" ahead of time.]
I don't think trim works the way you describe it lengro.
Trim just sets an offset angle deflection (it resets the default) based on your current speed. It is not constantly adjusting things for you, or dampening things for you, when you're in a knife fight. There's a table or chart that says "at this speed, deflect ailerons N degrees, rudder N degrees, and elevators N degrees." Then it just updates that chart periodically based on airspeed.
At worst, it dampens elevator authority in specific planes because it is trying to trim it one way and you're pulling the other.
I understand your request, but question the cause-effect relationship. Say you're set at "zero trim" like you just took off. You're fighting the plane more because it is out of trim, and more than likely are going to lose because you could not get your nose down in the right window for a shot, or were too busy fighting the wingtip stall to evade the bandit rolling into you from a rolling scissor.
Other than the minute amount of drag (so minute it won't effect a dogfight) what benefit does having "zeroed trim"* do? I'm not quite sure what the benefit is. Say you've zeroed the trims: You still fight the stick to get the plane to go where you want. Say you've toggled CT on and off: It's trimmed for your speed band, and if you get significantly faster you'll fight the stick to get the plane to go where you want.
Is the end result just fighting the stick, same as you do now? :headscratch:
*= in quotes because I don't know if that's the actual term
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I can think of no reason why you would ever want to simple put the trim tabs in the indicated zero position. Are you assuming the trim tabs remove performance, if so, they do not. combat trim works like Krusty said.
The only reason I can think of that anyone would ever want to fly a plane out of trim is to assist in a pull out of a high speed dive. Am I missing something?
iTech
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iTech
Do you work for Apple now HT?
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Do you work for Apple now HT?
:rofl OMG, I can't believe you jumped on that... :lol
I think I hear a bomb dropping.... :bolt:
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Krusty, No worries :) - I understand what you are saying
I know trim is based on a speed lookup-table - but I dont know how close the steps are 10mph, 20mph, 50mp? - hence I used the term dynamic trim.
ok, to clarify I just made a small Youtube movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbvb-FtJVCg
Notice the change through this loop manouvre, there is a:
- 25% change on aileron trim
- 50% change on elevator trim
- 10% change on rudder trim
while speed varies from 213 to 59 mph
Setting trim bars in the center is not necessarily setting them to have no effect. Depending on the speed and alt your flying at.
Ghosth <S>
if you look out your wing with aileron trim at center, you can see the aileron aligns with the rest of the wing. Now try to move aileron trim in small steps up and down, you can see the aileron move, and you can feel the slight change in the planes roll rate.
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Lengro, any chance you migth try similar moves in a non-109 plane? See if this is just specific to the 109 trim tables?
First thing that pops to mind is the most severe trim swing is right around the 120mph mark I know the 109s need a lot of trim at lower speeds, and can get nose heavy, and I'm thinking "Maybe you just got below that threshold where the 109 needs a ton of trim to fly smooth" and then it drops back to normal as you get past 120mph again?
I wonder if a more stable P-51 would have less trim swing, and if maybe something like the Ta152 (more unstable) would have more?
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Are you assuming the trim tabs remove performance, if so, they do not.
Hitech,
its only a matter of when my joystick is in its center position, I want elevators and ailerons to have no deflection - no matter the speed. (Just as it is today if you map trim to analogue controllers in their middle position and turn combat trim off).
EDIT:
I'm fully aware the plane then is out of trim and will only fly straight if I compensate with controllers. But in a hard turnfight I prefer feeling the forces acting on the plane rather than have them dynamically dampened by a trim system.
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That's with combat trim on isn't it? I thought you said you wanted all trim axis centered with combat trim off? Otherwise you're talking manual over ride of combat trim while it's engaged.
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That's with combat trim on isn't it?
Yes - hence the change in trim settings during the loop.
I thought you said you wanted all trim axis centered with combat trim off?
I did and I do :)
Otherwise you're talking manual over ride of combat trim while it's engaged.
how is that different from: disable combat trim and move all trim settings to center (and stay there until I again select combat trim)?
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how is that different from: disable combat trim and move all trim settings to center (and stay there until I again select combat trim)?
Well, it's a little different programming. Think of it as taking a dynamic setting that self adjusts and manually locking it in one position with a switch vs turning the automated process off, setting a position and leaving it there. I could understand wanting a quick way to return the trim to level flight values instead of relying on auto pilot slowly resetting it. You're video has me a bit confused I guess. I was thinking you were going to show what you consider to be the advantage of all trim axis centered in maneuvers vs combat trim.
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Well, it's a little different programming. Think of it as taking a dynamic setting that self adjusts and manually locking it in one position with a switch vs turning the automated process off, setting a position and leaving it there. I could understand wanting a quick way to return the trim to level flight values instead of relying on auto pilot slowly resetting it.
cc - the end result is the same - Hitech can coad it as he please :)
You're video has me a bit confused I guess. I was thinking you were going to show what you consider to be the advantage of all trim axis centered in maneuvers vs combat trim.
I hardly think I can call it an advantage - rather a possibility to have consistency between my joystick deflection and the planes control surface deflection. Put a real ww2 plane in a steady climb and then hold and dont move the stick - speed will drop and eventually you will stall. The same scenario In AH with combat trim on: the elevator (and the graphical representation of the stick on screen) will move as you slow down, slightly affecting your climb - even though you don't move your physical game controller.
I really don't suggest anything new, just an easier way to do whats already possible in the game.
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I understand...I never use combat trim...come to think of it, I'm pretty sure a lot of people turn it off... :headscratch:
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Actually lengro that is why I suggested cycling your CT on and off once at the speed your going to dogfight in.
That will set your trim to neutral for that speed/alt or close to it.
The other thing you have to remember is that any use of Autopilot also changes the trim.
If your on level autopilot at 350 mph, then go to manual flight, your trim is still set for level flight at 350 mph.
Even though you may be at 140 mph in a turn fight.
Setting the bars dead center may not be the answer your looking for.
Cycling CT on and off, assuming you do it at the speed you dogfight at, will set it "close" to where you want it.
If you want it other than that, then your entering the world of manual trim, and having to put it manually where you want it. But where you want it is not necessarily centered on the bar. As that may leave you farther out of trim than you were. What you want is to trim it to "hands off" at the speed your going to be fighting at.
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Ghosth,
I fully understand and appreciate your suggestions.
However, a 1v1 merge often start at slightly above corner velocity and then develops into an aggressive rolling scissors fight with flaps going up and down, and speeds where planes almost stand still on the top of the circle. Throttle is going from zero to full WEP during the fight. You are constantly adding and removing torques and forces to the airframe.
Is there a manual trim setting to this scenario that is more right than wrong? Maybe - but if I start out with an untrimmed plane, where control surfaces are at mechanical neutral position when no joystick input is applied, I have a reference to work from (feel the force :) )
Is combat trim better? Maybe - at least (for the most part) I don't have to deflect my controllers as much during the fight.
I guess its all a matter of different people - different preferences.
But as I said - I can already do the requested in game, and often do it - I'm just asking for an easier way to do it.
<S>
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Lengro sir I understand, I'm just not sure this is a fixable problem.
Your so far out there now, that your fighting the limitations of the system.
No I don't think CT is better necessarily, well better than what is the first thing that has to be defined.
Better than out of trim, controls feeling "off" or mushy, yes.
For me I'm lazy, the more pilot load I can remove the happier I am.
So yes CT is on for me, mostly.
When I do fly with CT off, If I do get into a wicked fight, esp if I was at 8k trimmed for fast, about the 2nd merge I'll cycle CT on and off in less than a second. Because I know that at least trim is now set for "close" to this speed, not 350 mph or faster when I was in level flight.
I understand what your asking for and why. I think for the majority of people it would cause as many problems as it solves.
Next time your in one of those bleeding edge fights with Bighorn. If your film is on, go back and look in the film at where your trim is actually set to. Then in the same situation see where the period . sets it to.
Truly I believe that for you trim is the butterfly wing that caused a hurricane half a planet away.
However I could be wrong, I'm not perfect.
<S> Loads of respect headed your way as always sir!
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Get yourself a decent HOTAS with trim wheels. That's the only way that's gonna work.
For keyboard trimmers, there's no real reason to do it as you describe.
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I still have no idea why you would want the controls at trim 0 position. You have stated you wish them not to move(i.E. no combat trim)this I understand. But simply returning them to center would be a very bad thing in flight. You do realize that moving them to center would make some planes uncontrollable at some speeds?
The 0 center point on the system really is meaning less. And I am not sure you understand that on almost all real aircraft trimming the plane moves the stick and control surface the same as moving the stick by hand does.
For some reason I think you are asking for something that would work different than you expect.
HiTech
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Next time your in one of those bleeding edge fights with Bighorn. If your film is on, go back and look in the film at where your trim is actually set to. Then in the same situation see where the period . sets it to.
Truly I believe that for you trim is the butterfly wing that caused a hurricane half a planet away.
However I could be wrong, I'm not perfect.
<S> Loads of respect headed your way as always sir!
<S> Ghosth, thanks for suggestions - all respect back at you, sir!
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Get yourself a decent HOTAS with trim wheels. That's the only way that's gonna work.
For keyboard trimmers, there's no real reason to do it as you describe.
cc - analogue trim wheels is much easier to center
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I still have no idea why you would want the controls at trim 0 position. You have stated you wish them not to move(i.E. no combat trim)this I understand. But simply returning them to center would be a very bad thing in flight. You do realize that moving them to center would make some planes uncontrollable at some speeds?
I understand that having trim at 0 position would force me to hold my rudder pedals and joystick in an off-center position if I wanted straight and level flight.
But it's only for use in hard turnfighting where I constantly work with all game controllers.
My goal is to learn the forces acting on the plane and how much joystick deflection it takes to counter them.
The 0 center point on the system really is meaning less. And I am not sure you understand that on almost all real aircraft trimming the plane moves the stick and control surface the same as moving the stick by hand does.
I do understand that - I also understand why its a good thing when cruising from A to B.
For some reason I think you are asking for something that would work different than you expect.
I do it often when testing limits in 1vs1s - my request was only an easier way to get to that setup.
By now I also realize I'm confusing people with this request, that alone is a good reason not to continue with this feature to the other 99.9% of players.
I truly thank you for spending time trying to understand why I asked for this feature <S>
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I can think of no reason why you would ever want to simple put the trim tabs in the indicated zero position. Are you assuming the trim tabs remove performance, if so, they do not. combat trim works like Krusty said.
The only reason I can think of that anyone would ever want to fly a plane out of trim is to assist in a pull out of a high speed dive. Am I missing something?
iTech
I frequently fly with combat trim off and just center the trim because when fighting, if I drop flaps & combat trim is on, it fights me and makes my nose wanna bounce upwards, as it doesn't correct for the flaps being dropped. Granted, if I take my hands off the stick and my feet off the rudder pedals, the plane is not coordinated, I just adjust by always giving a little input on the rudder pedals and the stick.
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I frequently fly with combat trim off and just center the trim because when fighting, if I drop flaps & combat trim is on, it fights me and makes my nose wanna bounce upwards, as it doesn't correct for the flaps being dropped. Granted, if I take my hands off the stick and my feet off the rudder pedals, the plane is not coordinated, I just adjust by always giving a little input on the rudder pedals and the stick.
Andy I understand why people turn combat trim off, but are you saying you look at the needles and move all 3 to the center?
HiTech
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Hi,
I suggest to enter an option to eliminate torque on all planes !
And to use trim axes or three new axes to add additional input on ailerons, elevator and rudder.
This introduces a very way and more fun triming axes system as to me.
:salute