Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: DEECONX on March 28, 2010, 04:25:06 PM
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Ok, so I fly P51s and P47s mostly, so BnZ would be the logical choice of attack correct? Well, Everytime I dive on a guy, he breaks at the last second, If I turn with him, I loose E, and He gains the upper hand, If I climb out and circle back, he has climbed aswell, making him harder to dive on. What do I need to do to kill this pilot? Also, say Im the one getting dived on, I try breaking hard left/right like the before mentioned does to get away from me, but somehow he maneuvers with me, and gets a one pass kill :furious What do I need to do to get out of this one pass kill, and what do I need to do to get one pass kills? Also, if there are any trainers out there who can help out a poor pony pilot like myself, it'd be much appreciated :pray
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No, I figured out what my F***ing problem is, I dont have a wingman. Everyone time I end up in a fight, about a min into the fight, they call for their wingman, then a 1v1 goes to 1v2, and I'm screwed. I really need a wingman who flies as much as I do, and flies P-51D and flies Bish, until then, I can only up, find a bad guy, then leave because I'm outnumbered and get called a runstang :mad:
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Ok, so I fly P51s and P47s mostly, so BnZ would be the logical choice of attack correct?
Yes, these planes are well suited for BnZ attacks.
Well, Everytime I dive on a guy, he breaks at the last second, If I turn with him, I loose E, and He gains the upper hand, If I climb out and circle back, he has climbed aswell, making him harder to dive on. What do I need to do to kill this pilot? Also, say Im the one getting dived on, I try breaking hard left/right like the before mentioned does to get away from me, but somehow he maneuvers with me, and gets a one pass kill :furious What do I need to do to get out of this one pass kill, and what do I need to do to get one pass kills? Also, if there are any trainers out there who can help out a poor pony pilot like myself, it'd be much appreciated :pray
In order to be able to use an attack successfully, you have to know what attack is supposed to do. When people mention BnZ in game, they have an incorrect notion what it is and the majority don't know how to properly BnZ. Most think it's just diving on an enemy from high altitude, hope to catch in unaware, fire a burst and then zoom back up to altitude and extend a half sector away, come back and repeat. All this does is allow what happens to you, the bandit is able to regain whatever energy and altitude is lost making the evasive break turn.
Proper BnZ by its very nature is an aggressive tactic. The intent of BnZ is to force the target to bleed his energy to such a state that he is no longer able to avoid your next pass or creates an angle that allows for a shot. BnZ is also a patience game, in most cases you will not get the kill on the first pass. Use the first pass to set up your 2nd pass, however, if you see an angle that you can get a good probability of a shot on the first pass take it.
When you spot your target below you, make sure that when you start your dive that you're not too high up that you run the risk of over speeding and diving below the bandit. Usually, if I spot the target below me and he's at least 3,000ft lower, I'll start to spiral down using my throttle to help keep my speed in check until I make my attack. I also don't dive straight down at the target or at a steep angle. I usually come in from an offset six position trying for at least a 35 to 40 degree dive angle. This way when I go into my Zoom climb, I'm not pulling any more Gs than necessary and not wasting energy needlessly.
If the bandit breaks, depending on my offset six angle I came at, I may be presented with an angle as the bandit is in the apex of his breaking turn. If I can take this shot by just rolling into his breaking turn and get a good lead by pulling minimum amount of Gs, I'll take it. However, if I see that I cannot take the shot because I would have to pull too many G's to pull sufficient lead, or he broke out of line of sight, I'll just extend beyond guns range and then go into my Zoom climb, looking behind me all the time to see what the bandit is doing. If the bandit used the break to try and escape, I'll immediately reverse my Zoom before I extend too far and start my attack again.
At this point, you can usually tell the quality of the pilot, if he's a good pilot, he'll be able to retain energy enough to avoid the attacks for a few passes. If he's not very good, you'll usually get the kill on your first pass.
If you're facing an experienced pilot and he's managed to avoid a couple of your passes, do not lose patience and be overly aggressive that it over rules any advantages you had. Patience is a virtue when it comes to any form of Energy fighting and BnZ is no different. Lose patience and lose the fight.
Having said that, use your passes to set up your next pass. If the bandit avoids your first attack, use your second attack to set up the third. This is called 'Tap Dancing on the head of the bandit' and is intended to set up your next pass by using a feint attack to set it up.
When you make your firing pass and go into the Zoom portion, you do not want to extend more than d2.0 from the target and that's stretching things a little bit. Extend any further and you run the risk of allowing the target to start to regain his energy and altitude or at the very least, set up maneuver for your next pass. In some cases, the bandit is able to build up some energy as you're diving on him (bandit is in a shallow dive) and is able to break into your attack. If this happens, extend beyond gun range and then pull into a shallow high speed climb, steeping the climb as you go up. If the bandit is following you up, just turn the BnZ pass into a Rope-A-Dweeb and pounce as he stalls.
If the bandit is trying to use a vertical barrel roll to create an overshoot as you make your pass, do not pull into the vertical. Instead just do as normal, extend beyond gun range (best at an angle offset from the direction the bandit did the vertical barrel roll), shallow high speed climb, steepen it up and then make your next attack.
Be aggressive not overly aggressive and always stay patient. Once you get the hang of properly using BnZ attacks, you'll find that multi-bandit engagements where you find yourself above 2 more bandits easier to engage in and win. In cases like these, you can tap dance on their heads to control and manage the fight by keeping them all grouped up while you make your passes.
Honestly, BnZ flown how it's supposed to be done is actually an amazing thing to watch, especially when a single pilot is using it to engage 2 or more bandits.
ack-ack
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No, I figured out what my F***ing problem is, I dont have a wingman. Everyone time I end up in a fight, about a min into the fight, they call for their wingman, then a 1v1 goes to 1v2, and I'm screwed. I really need a wingman who flies as much as I do, and flies P-51D and flies Bish, until then, I can only up, find a bad guy, then leave because I'm outnumbered and get called a runstang :mad:
join my squad and well set you up with wingmen whenever possible
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Yes, these planes are well suited for BnZ attacks.
etc...
pure gold :aok
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As AckAck said...I thought that was well said....Basically you need to work out whether you are going to turn or buzz....I know when I get somebody who does this right to me I find it extremely annoying...the problem most have is the patients side of things......many fall into the trap of turning because the con gives them enough of a taste that they feel they can get them if they pull around a little more...//patients is what is needed......don't deviate from what your initial plan was......most times you are being forced/sucked into playing the cons game.
on a side note...the two planes mentioned do have a good turn fighting ability also..you just need to decide before you enter the fight what it is you intend to do...
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Thanks guys, will keep working out the best I can.
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join my squad and well set you up with wingmen whenever possible
:rofl
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:rofl
I think he meant to say, "bait whenever possible".
ack-ack
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Positioning for your second attack also involves more than just popping back onto your perch. KEEP YOUR EYES ON YOUR TARGET AT ALL TIMES (can never stress this enough. Don't fly with your head in your instruments, keep the bandit in view except for the periodic checks to your rear) and watch what your opponent is doing: Which way did he break? Did he turn back the other way? Use that information to set up your next pass.
For example:
You're diving on the target and he breaks to the left. Rather than force the shot you pull back up into the vertical. Keeping your target in view, you see he continues his left-hand turn. What you may do here is turn your extension into a high yo-yo, or oblique loop to the left: You're following him through his left-hand turn, but converting your larger turn radius because of your speed into vertical rather than horizontal separation:
(http://vmf251-buccaneers.net/images/Training/BNZ_Oblique.png)
This same process works for almost any move your opponent makes. It's just a matter of knowing where your opponent is and inferring from that where he's going to be, and setting yourself up accordingly. It takes some practice, but it's doable.
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I think he meant to say, "bait whenever possible".
ack-ack
:aok
Thanx Saxman! The visual really helps!
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Remember that each pilot in the MA has an incredible amount of SA built into the game. The clipboard map, bar dar, dot dar, icons with closure indicators--all of these things work against a historical BnZ attack in the style recommended by most of the USAAF tactics of the period.
That being said, Sax's diagram is the perfect illustration of Ack-Ack's suggestion to stay aggressive. Its like leading with the cue ball in pool--ever maneuver should set up your next attack. Usually, I make a series of very high speed passes showing an early break as soon as the con maneuvers defensively. Then, after he expects the usual pull off the attack and climb back to altitude, I'll roll in with a very aggressive maneuver if I can commit to the 1v1 fight. You don't want to be caught flat-footed in the Jug when help shows up.
Last, keep an eye on the enemy situation. You can't commit to any fight in the MA if 3 or 4 reds are on their way to your fight, unless you've got a large speed advantage to extend away, or your a masterful stick and intend on dispatching them very quickly in succession.
p.s. If you're in a Jug, learn to fight it as light as you can possibly make it. The M and N models especially turn in some very much improved performance numbers when they're operated at about 25% fuel and half and ammo load.
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Thanx Stoney!
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Ok, so I fly P51s and P47s mostly, so BnZ would be the logical choice of attack correct? Well, Everytime I dive on a guy, he breaks at the last second, If I turn with him, I loose E, and He gains the upper hand, If I climb out and circle back, he has climbed aswell, making him harder to dive on. What do I need to do to kill this pilot? Also, say Im the one getting dived on, I try breaking hard left/right like the before mentioned does to get away from me, but somehow he maneuvers with me, and gets a one pass kill :furious What do I need to do to get out of this one pass kill, and what do I need to do to get one pass kills? Also, if there are any trainers out there who can help out a poor pony pilot like myself, it'd be much appreciated :pray
:salute
I will just say this out of experience and I may be wrong on some points. Correct me if it is the case. Its just a little trick I developed over the past few months.
There is an effective way to defend against BnZs and also another way to turn the tides and gain the advantage (at least to get a decent shot). (This can work even with a Jug D-11 VS a 109K4 or P38)
[1]If you are caught slow and catch a con on your 6 in a shallow dive, start a shallow dive as well and keep him on your 6. When the con is about 2-3k behind with a reasonably fast closing rate, start a very faint L/H or R/H turn (I prefer R/H). While watching the con on your six, gradually pull more and more Gs until you start hitting the 5Gs mark at about 1k-800 range... by this time, he doesn't have such a high deflection shot opportunity on you, but either his corner speed can't make him point his guns at you or hes blacking out so bad and can't see a thing. If you pulled too soon, he has a large deflection angle and you can just roll 90degrees toward the ground at the last second (600-800range) and pull just a little bit to avoid the shot (95% of times you shouldn't even hear a single ping). Usually it can prevent you from gaining E effectively but can strain you con's patience as well because it is so efficient (although with a good altitude advantage) and can force your opponent to think about turning with you instead of playing it safe. Just do some rolling scissors with them if you are good at it.
[2]If you are caught slow and catch a con on top of you in a steep dive, grab speed as fast as you can (you want a good 250mph) while turning toward him on a horizontal plane. this will force him to keep his very steep attack angle and make him pull a lot of Gs on the way up. You want him to give him a 90degree deflection shot the first pass - your speed being the only thing prepping you for his 2nd pass. As soon as he misses his shot, pull up gently and climb toward him as hes struggling against Gs going back up. You may want to shoot him at this point but usually, its impossible shots (you can shoot some warning shots if you like to increase the pressure on him). As he is above you (usually 1.5 or 2k), he will be forced to come back down very quickly (shooting him will make him rethink and wait a little bit more while you grab some E right below him). Show him you are the victim and you want to be killed!
As he comes back down (point him your lift vector to be ready for the next move), you might be in the 200-225 speed range, its now time to pull up as fast as you can. He will be surprised at the closing rate and will not be able to correct his trajectory effectively. He can't pull Gs enough to reach you, he is pointing straight down and you are pointing straight up. What a best way to gain E on him! As he pulls back up, you should have just enough E to point your nose up at him during his vertical climb out (looking more like a failed rope at this point) and have a deadly 400-600 accurate 50Cals thrown at him.
At worst, if you miss, hes going to panic, head back down at 100mph and you, barely able to hold it on him, but enough to kill him with a good chance of succeeding.
If you know you won't be able to reach him (probably a good stick), the faster you head back down to grab speed, the better because he has won the rope. Try again, because everything came back like at the beginning: slow and con right above you (only a little closer)
[3]If you are caught with speed, you have the choice of either 2 situation's countermeasures and possibly be the one forcing him to actually get BnZied himself.
Its all about faking you don't have the E to extend your arm and reach him when hes not expecting it. Climb when he climbs, only you do it effortlessly.
At least that's what I do in the Jug. P51s should be the one of the best at defending against BnZs though.
I'm not good at explaining that kind of stuff, so forgive me if its all not very clear. :pray
:salute
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Last thing I'll add:
In the MA and while flying the Jug, 7,000 feet Above Ground Level is the magic altitude. From that altitude, you're about 5 seconds away from showing 500 mph IAS and running. Most of the time in the MA fight, its tough to maintain this much of a buffer, but that's the minimum altitude necessary for a escape dive.
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No one mentioned attacking on the way up? Try diving behind and lower than your target, then gently level out or go into a shallow climb up his ass. You will have a lot of speed and close very fast on his low 6. He on the other hand will hard time tracking you and time his break because he cannot see well to low-6.
One of two things will happen:
1. He didn't notice you yet - and never will until you hit him.
2. He will have to roll his plane to keep watching you, giving you ample warning to which side he is about to break. Very likely he will loose nerve and break too soon giving you 90 degree full top area deflection shot.
After you take your shot, increase the zoom climb angle, watch and decide if to keep pressure on or setup a new pass.
Requires better timing and better closure-speed judgment then attacking from above , but a hell of a lot more effective and saves energy.
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Don't dive AT him, head for behind below him, get into his blind spot. Close the distance, then attack going back up.
For one it will help you control your closure speed. For another if you miss your not in front of his guns.
And while it won't fool them all, a significant portion will lose track of you in their blind spot.
Giving you that chance to make a perfect pass.
I see Bozon beat me too it. :)
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Thanx guys! But, what if Im attacking, a guy, the first pass was a miss, and as Im climbing out to get and idea of how my next pass should be, his wingman shows up at co-alt or higher :confused: Now what? I know having a wingman will help this problem, but being a one man squad atm Im forced to find an answer to this problem :uhoh
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Thanx guys! But, what if Im attacking, a guy, the first pass was a miss, and as Im climbing out to get and idea of how my next pass should be, his wingman shows up at co-alt or higher :confused: Now what? I know having a wingman will help this problem, but being a one man squad atm Im forced to find an answer to this problem :uhoh
If wingman was co-alt with you (or even higher), you should eliminate him/her firstly. Part of SA is prioritizing the targets (threats).
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If wingman was co-alt with you (or even higher), you should eliminate him/her firstly. Part of SA is prioritizing the targets (threats).
That is what I usually try to do, but the first guy ends up climbing while Im fighting off the wingman, now I have two badguys co-alt :uhoh
EDIT:: this is when I usually WEP up dive out and put distance between me and them, then the runstang is thrown out there
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That is what I usually try to do, but the first guy ends up climbing while Im fighting off the wingman, now I have two badguys co-alt :uhoh
EDIT:: this is when I usually WEP up dive out and put distance between me and them, then the runstang is thrown out there
If you want to fight two at the time you need some sort of an advantage.
Either superior plane, position or superior skill, because If all things equal, two guys should beat the single one every time.
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Thanx guys! But, what if Im attacking, a guy, the first pass was a miss, and as Im climbing out to get and idea of how my next pass should be, his wingman shows up at co-alt or higher :confused: Now what? I know having a wingman will help this problem, but being a one man squad atm Im forced to find an answer to this problem :uhoh
Being one-man squad of my own I have to say: Wingmen rarely show up that "sudden". It's not that there is a clear sky when you point your nose down and suddenly there is some above you when you zoom up again. You should constantly scan the skies around you, and before you commit yourself to that one enemy you have to check & decide if any of those cons around you will be a potential thread to you.
And the more experience you get, the easier this task will be. Scan the sky, use the map and some common sense (if your at 5k and about to dive on someone at 1k, and you are halfway between 2 bases and there's a fat red darbar in sector, the probability is very high there will be a lot of higher cons around pretty soon)
EDIT:: this is when I usually WEP up dive out and put distance between me and them, then the runstang is thrown out there
And they may or may not be right with that. A player with less experience, a player tends to disengage/open the gap too much, because he just can't judge ditsnaces, speeds & E states.
Howver, the last time I was accused being a runner was when I opened the distance from 600 to 800 yds in my Tempest being bounced by a Yak :lol
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Thanx guys! But, what if Im attacking, a guy, the first pass was a miss, and as Im climbing out to get and idea of how my next pass should be, his wingman shows up at co-alt or higher :confused: Now what? I know having a wingman will help this problem, but being a one man squad atm Im forced to find an answer to this problem :uhoh
All a bunch of good advice here...
Just to give a different opinion on one point- I don't like to dive below my opponent and zoom back up on him for the shot. I do it when the situation calls for it (or I mess up), but given my choice, I'll never, ever, dive below if I'm BnZing.
There are a few reasons for that-
One, IMO it's a waste of energy (E). I'm burning some part of my E-advantage just zooming back up to his altitude. Now, my E-advantage is only useful to me if I can translate it into a kill-shot. "Wasting" or (maybe a better description) "trading" E for that shot is what it's all about... If I can make my kill on that pass, great! But if I don't? I've wasted part of my advantage... I'll be co-E sooner as a result... Personally, I use my opponents altitude as an imaginary "hard deck", and don't go below him if I'm in BnZ mode.
Two, that low-6 "blind spot", is a "good" pilot's most vulnerable spot. As a result, he's watching it (that spot) closer than any other. He flat-out expects you to try to get there (and knows that you want to, so it'll be easy to convince to go there), so good luck getting there undetected... And if you do get there, watch out! He's got a plan for that... Now, couple this with reason number one... The "good" pilot thinks you'll try to attack from his low 6, is watching you (or even "lets" you get there) and you burn excess E to get there. See where this is going? For that matter, he knows where you'll go after you come up on his six and miss the shot... Lemme guess, you'll zoom back up, right? Add predictability to the list of problems you have.
I just plain assume my opponent sees me when I dive in. If he doesn't, that's sweet- an easy kill. If he does, and maneuvers, I'm ready for that, and I don't want/need to burn extra E to find that out. Maintaining my advantage allows me to maintain pressure long enough to force him into a bad position.
Maintain a position nearly directly over his head, and bounce on him like Saxman's diagram shows. When you zoom out, watch him and don't allow him to get out to the side (minimize horizontal separation). Don't zoom out too far- 2K max. A "heavy" 1.5K may be better. Then get back in there and make him turn again. Zoom back out. Don't give him time to think too much. Don't force a shot on him, but be ready to shoot if an opportunity presents itself. Don't miss.
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Thanx mntman!
Well, been using all the advice here, and it really has helped! Thanx everyone! Today, I came in on a low 190, and was able to get a good deflection shot off on him using the tactic from Saxman's picture. I took out something that mad him smoke, and knocked out his engine :D Then low and behold, as I was climbingout, another 190, comes zooming in co-alt while Im trying to buy back my E from the first attack. We merge a few times, he throws a couple popshots my way, I give a lil rudder and "side step" out the way, then a friendly who I didn't know was above us came down on the 190 pretty good. I rtb'ed, refueled and headed back to claim a second kill doing the same thing, and a couple of assists. All in all, I have improved just on what you guys have said and shown!
:salute
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That is what I usually try to do, but the first guy ends up climbing while Im fighting off the wingman, now I have two badguys co-alt :uhoh
EDIT:: this is when I usually WEP up dive out and put distance between me and them, then the runstang is thrown out there
Fighting 2v1 is really a completely different topic. But since it's your thread, and you're the one asking...
In a 2v1, you need to capitalize on weakness, concentrate on the biggest threat, but not forget about the other guy either. Apply what pressure you can, when you can. Shoot when you can (and don't miss), but don't force the shot or commit to one for too long. Keep an eye on the guy in front of you, but pay close attention to the one behind you.
Also, use all of the information you have at your disposal.
A few tips-
Don't let the 2v1 turn into a 3v1. 2v1's are hard. 3v1's are really, really, really hard. That means you need to separate the fight from the crowd. Use the height you have to drag the fight to a "private" area, or possibly towards help.
Put them together. Get them into approximately the same area in relation to you. Both behind you and to the right, for example. Don't try to fight them if they're separated widely, if you can help it. That allows you to at least begin the fight as if it was a 1v1.
Don't let them dictate when the fight starts, exactly. Are they going to catch you, and force you to turn? If so, realize it, and reverse on them when you're ready- don't wait until they're so close you have no choice.
Make them think you want to run away and not fight. That seems to help convince them to keep they're speed up, which will give you a quick turning advantage (brief, though).
Make your shots count, and end the fight as quickly as possible. Mentally, I think it helps you, and hurts "them", if you can quickly kill one of them (even beyond the fact that it's now 1v1). Make it look easy, don't make it look lucky... What's the second guy thinking at that point? If you can get an edge that way, that's good. It may be 1v1 now, but it sure isn't starting out as an "even", equal position 1v1...
When you get into it, watch for the dangerous one, and avoid him. Also watch for one to give you a shot. Take it if you can, but if not, forget it and dodge the other guy.
Turn when you need to, and dodge when you need to, but don't overdo it. It burns E. Fly as smooth as you can, and make your moves/dodges subtle when you can. I always assume that even though they're both a team, they're also competing for my scalp. That makes them likely to burn E with tight turns and quick reversals.
Here's an example of some of that. In this film you don't see three key bits of information that one pilot gave me. The P47M made a pass on me while I was in a fight about 3 minutes before this film started. In doing so, he missed me on what I thought was an easy shot. He also pulled hard and awkwardly for that shot, burning E, and then zoomed out a long way (3.5-4K) before reversing back. Those things gave me an immediate "read" on him, but I was low, slow, and covered in red. I had to extend. In doing so (with him still following), I picked up another P47.
So I drag them out. This keeps it a 2v1, puts them close to each other behind me, and makes them think I want to run away. A friendly GV asks me to turn back to him for help. I'm confident though (sometimes suicidally, hehe)(plus, he called me minuteman...). I then reverse before they catch me (although the second one was shooting at me from 1k out (which gave me some info on him, too).
As I turn back, I see the more "unknown" pilot (P47-25) will miss his shot, and the M looks like he'll give me a shot so I go after him. I quickly realize I won't catch him, and can't afford to hang myself out. I'm pretty sure the -25 is closing from my right, and I'm scared.
I'm going to use some of my info here... How far will the M probably zoom? If he doesn't, and turns back quickly, how likely is he to perfectly execute the reversal, and how likely to hit me with that shot? My info from earlier leads me to believe that the -25 is the biggest threat right now, and he's closing in... So I take a quick shot on the M (a little damage on him is better than none, even a few pings may lead him to be a bit hesitant or intimidated, hopefully) and pull off to look for the -25.
Guess what? I screwed up... I misread the P47M's E-state... The M is quickly around for a shot- but misses. What info does this give me? Info on his E-state (he's not holding a ton), his frame of mind (he's being aggressive, burning E for the shot), he missed again (when I was extremely vulnerable) and he's now out of position for a few seconds following his shot (I can afford to spend a few seconds on the -25...). Take the shot when I can (don't miss!), but don't spend too long on it (be ready to reacquire the M). The 25 goes down, and the M is now vulnerable, as long as I pressure him enough that he can't straighten out and extend (I can't give him any "room", and I can't let the fight drag out too long).
In addition to all that, luck helps a whole lot! You never really know what's in store, so hopefully they'll miss a shot or two. You can't afford to miss (or get hit), though.
http://www.4shared.com/file/252466927/b755b31f/Jugs_2v1_at_end_0808.html
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Here's an example of some of that. In this film you don't see three key bits of information that one pilot gave me. The P47M made a pass on me while I was in a fight about 3 minutes before this film started. In doing so, he missed me on what I thought was an easy shot. He also pulled hard and awkwardly for that shot, burning E, and then zoomed out a long way (3.5-4K) before reversing back. Those things gave me an immediate "read" on him, but I was low, slow, and covered in red. I had to extend. In doing so (with him still following), I picked up another P47.
So I drag them out. This keeps it a 2v1, puts them close to each other behind me, and makes them think I want to run away. A friendly GV asks me to turn back to him for help. I'm confident though (sometimes suicidally, hehe)(plus, he called me minuteman...). I then reverse before they catch me (although the second one was shooting at me from 1k out (which gave me some info on him, too).
As I turn back, I see the more "unknown" pilot (P47-25) will miss his shot, and the M looks like he'll give me a shot so I go after him. I quickly realize I won't catch him, and can't afford to hang myself out. I'm pretty sure the -25 is closing from my right, and I'm scared.
I'm going to use some of my info here... How far will the M probably zoom? If he doesn't, and turns back quickly, how likely is he to perfectly execute the reversal, and how likely to hit me with that shot? My info from earlier leads me to believe that the -25 is the biggest threat right now, and he's closing in... So I take a quick shot on the M (a little damage on him is better than none, even a few pings may lead him to be a bit hesitant or intimidated, hopefully) and pull off to look for the -25.
Guess what? I screwed up... I misread the P47M's E-state... The M is quickly around for a shot- but misses. What info does this give me? Info on his E-state (he's not holding a ton), his frame of mind (he's being aggressive, burning E for the shot), he missed again (when I was extremely vulnerable) and he's now out of position for a few seconds following his shot (I can afford to spend a few seconds on the -25...). Take the shot when I can (don't miss!), but don't spend too long on it (be ready to reacquire the M). The 25 goes down, and the M is now vulnerable, as long as I pressure him enough that he can't straighten out and extend (I can't give him any "room", and I can't let the fight drag out too long).
In addition to all that, luck helps a whole lot! You never really know what's in store, so hopefully they'll miss a shot or two. You can't afford to miss (or get hit), though.
Damn....... just the way that reads is exciting....
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Ok, so I fly P51s and P47s mostly, so BnZ would be the logical choice of attack correct? Well, Everytime I dive on a guy, he breaks at the last second, If I turn with him, I loose E, and He gains the upper hand, If I climb out and circle back, he has climbed aswell, making him harder to dive on. What do I need to do to kill this pilot? Also, say Im the one getting dived on, I try breaking hard left/right like the before mentioned does to get away from me, but somehow he maneuvers with me, and gets a one pass kill :furious What do I need to do to get out of this one pass kill, and what do I need to do to get one pass kills? Also, if there are any trainers out there who can help out a poor pony pilot like myself, it'd be much appreciated :pray
Hmmm I'd like to see a film or two of your BnZ execution. Here's a couple of tips to add to your thoughts.
Pilots tend to repeat their evasive maneuvers. Often I'll make a pass at a person with the sole intent of learning their tells. If they give me a shot I'll take it, but I'm paying just as much mind to what they do. Often, a pilot will give away what his evasive is going to be, a tip of the wing, dropping flaps, maybe a nose up angle. All these things will give you an idea of which way he is going and allow you to "cheat" that direction. If he fools you, no biggie. If you don't have a shot, go up and reset. Keep an eye on him for the opportunity of a spiral rope(more on that in a minute). As simple as a move as it is, a large proportion of the MA populace will gobble it up.
Learn to hit planes that you can't see. A lot of those guys using simple break turns are sheep for the slaughter. They may go under your nose as you pull for a shot but they are still quite killable. I get tons of kills where the bad guy is under my nose AND I have to pull past blackout for a sec to get my guns in front of him. Get proficient at this and you will get more kills. Along with this, you must know when you can pull for this shot and when you can't. Pulling for a shot and missing is a waste of precious E.
Learn to spiral rope. While the move itself is very simple, there's a complex dance going on there. His E state, your E state... go up in such a way that even though you are faster, he isn't losing ground... maybe even closing. Adjust the spring of your spiral accordingly to keep him interested. Remember, he is going to be using more E as he tries to get his guns in front of you. Learn the subtleties of hanging up there a golden extra second or two before you nose down. Combat trim off, flaps out, throttle closed, even opposite rudder to the way your nose wants to fall. Be careful you don't spin when you put throttle back in.
I could tell you much more but you've got enough to learn for now. :)
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i fly 51s and bish lmk if you want to duo up. I am pretty bad but at least i can cover you while we learn.
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OK, so I fly P51s and P47s mostly, so BnZ would be the logical choice of attack correct? Well, Everytime I dive on a guy, he breaks at the last second, If I turn with him, I loose E, and He gains the upper hand, If I climb out and circle back, he has climbed as well, making him harder to dive on. What do I need to do to kill this pilot? Also, say I'm the one getting dived on, I try breaking hard left/right like the before mentioned does to get away from me, but somehow he maneuvers with me, and gets a one pass kill
Another thing worth mentioning is while you are perfecting your BnZ skill, choose your targets wisely. The first red guy you come across shouldn't necessarily be your first target. You may want to attack the planes that are giving you the least amount of trouble and continue past the planes that keep killing you. If a guy who you are attacking seems like a very good pilot, disengage and move on to an easier one. This make your sortie last longer.
Hint: When attacking more than one plane, plan your attack to allow the zoom portion of the pass aimed towards friendlies or a friendly base. This gives you an escape route.
Hint: Don't try and outclimb 109's and spit16's if you find yourself on the defensive, better to use your flat speed. :airplane:
As your skills improve, you can start attacking anything and everybody with blind abandon. :joystick:
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try to drag them to your allies. sometimes when I approach targets in b25h, and theres a furball ahead, Ill get radio calls saying they are tryin to drag them into my gunsight
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Like kingcobra said, heaven forbid you learn to fight!! Insert googly eyes here (on blackberry and I can do them)
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Pilots tend to repeat their evasive maneuvers. Often I'll make a pass at a person with the sole intent of learning their tells.
so so many in the arenas overlook this one very important mannerism.......
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Haven't seen ya in a while deeconx! From my perspective the most important thing in BnZ is gunnery. You gotta be able to anticipate your opponent's move base on speed and their options to manuever. Once you figure that out you just learn to set it up. When you do it long enough you'll be able to predict exactly where your opponent's is gunna be within next 5 seconds. Then you'll just gotta be able to point your bullets at that 5 seconds mark, that's the hardest part too. Puttings them rounds on target doing 400-500 w/ 1-2 seconds time frame to shoot. Just PM me, I have a few films for ya.
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Just to mention one more thing that I didn't see here. The essence of BnZ and any energy tactic is to conserve your E and encourage your opponent(s) to blow theirs.
This means that normally you should be economical in your control inputs. All control inputs, no matter how small, chisel away at your available E. All control inputs are not created equal. Things that tend to present the flat surfaces of either the wings or the fuselage, like pulling on the stick or slipping by holding the rudder, eat up more speed and energy by creating drag. You also lose E by pulling high Gs (essentially increasing the force of gravity if your are familiar with the 4 force of flight). Pure aileron rolling tends to eat up less energy in comparison.
This means that pulling out or turning hard tend to bleed E quicker. You want to hold that to the minimum necessary, which calls for a little planning and anticipation in your attack and egress routing. As you alt out, avoid a lot of turning and changes of direction. If you need to keep bad guys in sight, a bit of judicious rolling should give you vision without cutting into your E.
I've seen a number of people blow impressive E advantages by keeping their plane under a G load all the time and I'm betting that a good number of them are not aware of the effects of maintaining high G all the time.
I hope that helps!
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Ack Ack prolly gave the best summation. The thing about keeping the pressure on is not allowing them to regain any usable E. If they manage this they will most likely just turn in and HO. Watch for this and be prepared to go into a rope.
BnZ has been a very useful tactic currently in the AvA where the brits have the turners but the Axis has the speed and climbers. DO NOT lose your patience and get sucked into turning with a more agile bird. More agile generally means slower with a more poor climb. Fight to your advantages not the opponent's.
Oh yeah, and discretion is most definately the better part of valor.
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Don't dive AT him, head for behind below him, get into his blind spot. Close the distance, then attack going back up.
For one it will help you control your closure speed. For another if you miss your not in front of his guns.
And while it won't fool them all, a significant portion will lose track of you in their blind spot.
Giving you that chance to make a perfect pass.
I see Bozon beat me too it. :)
What both yall said---historically my biggest failing
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I was in a Spit XVI last week BnZing a Hurri IIC. I had pinged him a couple of times on repeated quick passes and then climbed a bit to regain lost E. I came back in a hard fast dive over the enemy GV base and just as I reached guns range one of the flaks on the field must have given him a check 6. He started rolling and flipping eratically (doing the flopping fish manouver) and must have put it into an unrecoverable spin because he augered giving me the kill. :)
OK, back on topic.
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Lotta the furball lake graduates do similar--most popular seems to be the 'windmill' with the stick :joystick: