Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Glunz on April 02, 2001, 06:38:00 AM
-
Shouldn't 109 have higher +G tolerance than most other planes (Spitfire, for example) ?
It seems to me that you enter blackout at same G in all AH planes.
P.S. Vertical cockpit bars are not vertical (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Glunz (edited 04-02-2001).]
-
S!
The Bf109 offered the pilot above average G-tolerance.This was achieved by a good "ergonomy" for the pilot(even the cockpit is a bit cramped).In AH there seems to be no particular difference between planes tho.But it is cool to pull a lag turn near blackout with a P51/P47/Spit in the 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
-
Late war allied pilots in some planes used g-suits, also.
------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
-
S!
As well did the German Luftwaffe too in the Me262 I think it was.They experimented with them,no better info if used in combat(perk G-suit for LW? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
------------------
DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
-
G tolerance is far more dependant on the pilot's conditioning and condition than most of the variations in ergonomics (was such a term used back then?) among WW2 era airplanes. Having everyone experience the same G levels is probably more to leveling the playing field for pilot condition variations than as concessions to minor variations in cockpit design.
MiG
-
Agreed, but we don't wanna have double standards.
Right now the 109 pilot is undermodeled (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Same pilot for all planes = different blackout tolerance, depending on plane design. Otherwise, the next thing we might get is different pilot strength. Imagine spit rolling with 190 at 350 IAS, just because they modeled some muscular dude flying the Spit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
[This message has been edited by Glunz (edited 04-02-2001).]
-
Very good point MiG. I agree.
-
S!
But also the "posture"(correct word?) in which the pilot sits helps to tolerate more G.A good example can be F16.It has the seat tilted 32 degrees backwards to give the pilot better G-tolerance.In 109 the "posture"(?)was good for it's era.The pilot sat pretty relaxed,even he had quite great forces to deal with the controls.As I sat in a real Bf109G-6,the cockpit was a bit cramped,but the seat pretty comfortable for a fighter and legs were resting well on the pedals.Hands also were quite well resting on the stick and throttle...Just my 2 cents.
------------------
DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
-
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-03-2001).]
-
Funked we went over that a while ago buddy.
The effect you are reffering to is one of the depth perception ques, in this case one called: "linear perspective", this is the narrowing of parallel lines as they go for long distances- one often sees this in films where a straight road narrows into a V at long distances.
Linear perspective doesn't work that close in, as in the case of 109 cockpit bars.
From only a foot or so away, which is how far a 109 pilots head is vs the windshield, they would still be vertical.
Anyone interested can this simple test as soon as you get a chance. All you need is a book or magazine about 8X12 inches which is pretty close to 109 windshield dimensions and proportions.
Simply hold the book at arms length at eye level with the longer side down.
Then tilt the book at about 40 degrees towards you, simulating the 109 windshield angle.
Observe the relative "narrowing" from top to bottom. There isnt any, and certainly nothig even close to the AH effect.
Also do this test with one eye, you will see the same thing- confirming this is a monocular depth cue.
Basically the 109 windsheld narrwing in AH is extremly overdone, in RL the efect was nonexistant from the distances a 109 pilot sat from windshield.
I must also make it perfectly clear this is a monocular depth que, that is, its not dependant on steroscopic 3D vision- thus it works with anything including cameras and 2D monitors.
Its wrong and should be fixed.
-
We have already simulated the extreme force needed to control the 109 at hi speeds, so, IMO, we should have simulated the advantage in G tolerance that the 109 seat gives to the pilot.
About the 109 windshield narrowing in AH, go this site and take a look at the 109 pilot inside the 109 cockpit.
http://www.spania-hq.com/ (http://www.spania-hq.com/)
As you'll notice, no bars at all are disturbing his frontal visibility.
GRUNHERZ, I agree with you, 109 windshield narrowing in AH is EXTREMELY overdone.
-
The advantage gained would IMO, be absolutly minimal. You achieve way more by proper anti-G-straining than any G-suit or reclined seat will ever do.
(Modern G-suits only really give you about 1 extra G)
Daff
------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
www.56thfightergroup.org (http://www.56thfightergroup.org)
This is Yardstick, follow me"
-
...not worth the time or effort...
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-03-2001).]
-
It doesnt matter funked this is simply a 2d visual effect, use of cameras or any other stuff doesnt matter. The simple fact is that we should make things as the pilots saw them, in a real 109 the bars were vertical. HTC can make them vertical in here too, there is no reason why the cant.
-
Pure arrogance funked! Why dont you simply admit your position is wrong? What the illustrious funked you cant deal when somebody else has more knowledge of a subject than he? Yes funked there is a first time for everything.
All you can do now is act arrogant as if you are are above all us riff-raff, really pathetic funked.
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 04-03-2001).]
-
rolf!@
-
Grunherz I deleted that before I saw your last two replies. Sorry to leave you hanging. I'm not trying do any of the things you accuse me of.
I simply don't have the time or desire to work out the mathematics of this problem to back up my point. I'm pretty sure that I'm right, but if I'm not willing/able to prove it, there's no further use in discussing it.
Especially because it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what the answer is (it's a pretty trivial detail) and I'm not at all certain that the coordinates in the 3d model of the plane are correct.
Enjoy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-03-2001).]
-
Necesita traduccion. GRACIAS
Lamentablemente, los alemanes iban un paso por delante a los aliados en cuanto la toleracincia a las G's negativas o positivas, y digo lamentablemente porque para sus experimentos usaron a seres humanos (Rusos o Polacos)para comprobar no solo la resistencia a las temperaturas extremas en las partes altas de la atmosfera, si no tambien para desarrollar trajes anti-G, mucho antes de que los aliados dispusiesen de sus trajes anti-G o calefactados los alemanes ya disponian de ellos, ademas, desde el principio diseñaron su avion estrella (109) para soportar mejor (el piloto) este tipo de fuerzas sobre el cuerpo humano. Desde aqui, quiero rendir homenaje a esas personas que dieron sus vidas ante la barbarie nazi, vidas que sin quererlo y obligadas han servido para que los pilotos actuales tengan una mejor forma de vuelo. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Un triste saludo
Supongo
-
S!
Garrido,in english por favor (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)I agree with Mandoble/Grunherz.The windshield bars in the 109G are straight,not as in AH which is narrowing way too much.And U can see pretty well outta the cockpit except the straight 6oc.I closed the canopy of the G-6 to see how the view was.It was actually pretty good!Canopy weighs pretty much BTW due to the glass armor/armor plate.The pilot sits relatively low in the 109.My shoulders were at the same level of the canopy sill(177cm tall).Gonna go back and sit once again in the 109G-6,it was such a thrilling experience (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
-
DB603, Garrido is basically telling that germans where one step forward the allies in G-suits and heated suits. Also that the germans used polish and rusian prisioners to test those suits at extreme positive/negative Gs and extreme cold temperatures.
-
S!
Thanx for the brief translation Mandoble!
------------------
DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)