Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hammerhead on October 24, 2001, 01:21:00 PM
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Could we have one of these....
Please!
(http://null)
(http://www.flightjournal.com/plane_profiles/p-51_mustang/images/drawings/p-51_mustang_Ia.gif)
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another 200-production run plane with uberhispanos?... :rolleyes:
However, perk it with 10 points, and am all for it...after we have here all the lot of planes we are missing first. That way in 5-6 releases you **may** get it ;)
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I believe that one is Mustang I A with Allison engine ?
Good plane to 15k but suck after that. No reason to perk.
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It really didn't suck that bad above 15 or even 20K. 25K however was pushing it. This bird could do 410MPH at 20K.
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From Baugher's site (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_7.html):
"Specifications of P-51A-10-NA:
One 1200 hp Allison V-1710-81 twelve-cylinder Vee liquid cooled engine. Performance Maximum speed was 340 mph at 5000 feet, 360 mph at 10,000 feet, 380 mph at 15,000 feet, and 390 mph at 20,000 feet."
390 or 410mph @20k, Quite fast anyway.
Edit: Looks like 109 G-2 and 190 A-5 could be good match for that one thought I would rather see one with .50 cals :)
[ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: Staga ]
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How about a new paint job on the existing pony?
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Rather see a malcolm hood on a 51 first..
SKurj
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...and by that I mean the D...
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Yes lets do more US stuff....! :rolleyes:
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Ill take the single P51b that had Hispanos instead thanks.
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We definitely need a Mustang I. Probably should perk the cannon-armed ones (Ia) for rarity. Allison engine Mustangs were in service through the end of the war. Hopefully as HTC begins to cover early/mid war this plane will be added to the game.
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i agree...add a pony with hispano's and perk it. 10 - 15 would be about right. and maybe drop the perks on the F4U-4 a little bit. 15-20 maybe?
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Why perk a plane that saw service before any of the non-perk ones? You guys are just AFRAID of the pony...
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I'd like an La-7 with 4 hispano's please. Since the goal is to get an unbeatable plane, I think the La-7 would be a better pick. I'm sure somewhere, someone modified the La-7 to carry 4 Hispanos. Even if they didn't, I bet the Russians wished they had, so I think that counts enough that we should get the La-7 with 4 Hispanos.
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The goal is not to get an unbeatable plane (caus it aint fair). The goal is to get a pony that gives out a better BEATING to other planes :D :D :D
(I say replace the P51b with it :D and dont even change the colour) :D
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Keep in mind the Mustang I was not particularly fast. About the same as a Fw 190A-5.
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Weeeeeel, allmost all fights are bellow 15k ;)
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Yeah exactly what we need..another P-51. Give the Russkies a chance to get some planes in and the same for the Japanese.
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Originally posted by Hammerhead:
The goal is not to get an unbeatable plane (caus it aint fair). The goal is to get a pony that gives out a better BEATING to other planes :D :D :D
(I say replace the P51b with it :D and dont even change the colour) :D
I agree with this except please install a Malcom hood!
Mav
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The point is that if the petition was for a Mustang Mk.I (the one wich was historically abundant, and flew most sorties), I'd be all for one unperked.
But IA is a 200 production run plane. Kind of a C-hog but in a stang form.
You want an early war mkI?. I'm all for one. You want a very low production plane as the Mk.IA?. I'm all for one, but PERKED.
P.S.: I dont care is better or worse performer. The Ta152 is not that great of an aircraft and is perked in the MA. Guess why. :)
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Originally posted by R4M:
P.S.: I dont care is better or worse performer. The Ta152 is not that great of an aircraft and is perked in the MA. Guess why. :)
you havent had it at 25k have ya? :rolleyes:
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that someone wants a plane in a game doesnt mean its gonne BE in the game.
some people whine about things that dont even exist
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ill take a british modified
Mustang III 450mph @ 5k :)
4 50cals.
whels
Originally posted by R4M:
The point is that if the petition was for a Mustang Mk.I (the one wich was historically abundant, and flew most sorties), I'd be all for one unperked.
But IA is a 200 production run plane. Kind of a C-hog but in a stang form.
You want an early war mkI?. I'm all for one. You want a very low production plane as the Mk.IA?. I'm all for one, but PERKED.
P.S.: I dont care is better or worse performer. The Ta152 is not that great of an aircraft and is perked in the MA. Guess why. :)
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Pimpjoe: 90% of AH fights happen at <15. ANd over 25K, AH's Ta152H lacks 20mph, and up to 30k it has a tough time against spit IXs. Go figure its uberness. Its a good and capable plane, yes. Can do some nice stuff, yes. But is NOT an ubermachine, except over 30K. And noone in his senses stays at 30K with a Ta152 near (they bring down the fight to the deck, and bye bye)
To fly a Ta152 to climb up to 35K where noone goes except stratobuffs?...no thanks. Not worth the perks. It should be perked because it was a rare plane in WWII, and the price is OK with me. BUT is not perked because its performance. It is because its historical rarity.
Animal:I'm not whinin. Simply giving my take on the petition, and BTW I also doubt it will ever be included.
Whels: yah, and I want that nice Fw190D9 with tweaked supercharger able to run at 405mph on the deck with C3 fuel (you dont want to know how much did that thing run at 10K, do you?). And I'd also like to see all the planes having to run mixture/RPM/Manifold pressure independently except in the 190...etc etc etc. ;)
BTW how many mustangs were modified that way?. Which was the modification? ...I assume it was engine output increased...how much did an engine last with the increased output?.
[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Originally posted by R4M:
Pimpjoe: 90% of AH fights happen at <15. ANd over 25K, AH's Ta152H lacks 20mph, and up to 30k it has a tough time against spit IXs. Go figure its uberness. Its a good and capable plane, yes. Can do some nice stuff, yes. But is NOT an ubermachine, except over 30K. And noone in his senses stays at 30K with a Ta152 near (they bring down the fight to the deck, and bye bye)
To fly a Ta152 to climb up to 35K where noone goes except stratobuffs?...no thanks. Not worth the perks. It should be perked because it was a rare plane in WWII, and the price is OK with me. BUT is not perked because its performance. It is because its historical rarity.
Animal:I'm not whinin. Simply giving my take on the petition, and BTW I also doubt it will ever be included.
Whels: yah, and I want that nice Fw190D9 with tweaked supercharger able to run at 405mph on the deck with C3 fuel (you dont want to know how much did that thing run at 10K, do you?). And I'd also like to see all the planes having to run mixture/RPM/Manifold pressure independently except in the 190...etc etc etc. ;)
BTW how many mustangs were modified that way?. Which was the modification? ...I assume it was engine output increased...how much did an engine last with the increased output?.
[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
In late 1942, a deal was worked out between Britain and the USA in which Spitfire VBs would be transferred to the 8th Air Force in England, mainly for use as fighter-trainers. This cleared the way for Lend-Lease supplies to continue of the new Mustang model to the RAF.
The RAF equivalent to the USAAF P-51B/C was known as the Mustang III. The RAF ultimately received 274 P-51Bs and 626 P-51Cs. RAF serials were FB100/FB124, FB135/FB399, FR411, FX848/FX999, FZ100/FZ197, HB821/HB962, HK944/HK947, HK955, HK956, KH421/KH640, SR406/SR438, and SR440. Serial numbers FX848, 849, 907, 909, 910, 911, 913, 914, 915, 916, 918, 927, 928, 932, 948 were handed back to the USAAF upon arrival in Britain. HK944/947, 955, 956 were ex-Twelfth USAAF aircraft. KH490 crashed in the USA before delivery. Serial numbers SR406/438 and SR440 were a mixed bag of P-51Bs and Cs delivered to the RAF from the USAAF--US serial numbers were respectively 43-12162, 43-12407, 43-12412, 43-12473, 43-12484, 43-12427, 43-70114(?), 43-12189, 43-12177, 43-7039, 43-6831, 43-12155, 43-12188, 43-12456, 43-12480, 43-12399, 42-10663(?), 42-106683, 42-106630, 42-106687, 43-7071, 43-7144, 43-5595, 43-7171, 43-6829, 43-12420, 43-7152, 43-7135, 42-103209, 42-106478, 42-106431, 43-7007, 43-12420, 43-7159. (Question marks denote serial numbers which are probably erroneous). The first RAF squadron to receive the Mustang III was No. 65 Squadron based at Gravesend, which received its planes in December 1943.
A total of 59 Mustang IIIs were diverted to the Royal Australian Air Force and to other Allied air arms.
After these Mustang III aircraft had been delivered to England, the RAF decided that the hinged cockpit canopy offered too poor a view for European operations. A fairly major modification was made in which the original framed hinged hood was replaced by a bulged Perspex frameless canopy that slid to the rear on rails. This canopy gave the pilot much more room and the huge goldfish bowl afforded a good view almost straight down or directly to the rear. This hood was manufactured and fitted by the British corporation R. Malcolm & Co., and came to be known as the "Malcolm Hood". This hood was fitted to most RAF Mustang IIIs, and many USAAF Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51B/C fighters received this modification as well.
Many pilots regarded the Malcolm-hooded P-51B/C as the best Mustang of the entire series. It was lighter, faster, and had crisper handling than the later bubble-hooded P-51D and actually had a better all-round view. Its primary weakness, however, was in its armament--only four rather than six guns, which often proved prone to jamming. Some of the modifications applied to the P-51D to improve the ammunition feed were later retrofitted into P-51B/Cs, which made them less prone to jamming. With modified guns and a Malcolm hood, the P-51B/C was arguably a better fighter than the P-51D, with better visibility, lower weight, and without the structural problems which afflicted the D. Its departure characteristics were also more benign.
The first RAF base to receive Mustang IIIs was at Gravesend in Kent. The Mustang III initially equipped No. 65 Squadron in late December of 1943, followed by No. 19 Squadron in March of 1944. Later the Mk. III also equipped Nos 64, 65, 66, 93, 94, 112, 118, 122, 126, 129, 165, 234, 237, 241 249, 250, 260, 268, 306, 309, 315, 316, 345, 430, 441, 442, and 516 Squadrons and No. 541 Squadron of RAF Coastal Command. These units included four Polish squadrons (306, 309, 315, 316), three RCAF, and one Free French.
The new RAF Mustang IIIs began operations late in February 1944, escorting US heavy bombers as well as both US and RAF medium bombers.
Numerous RAF Mustang IIIs were diverted to the interception of V-1 "buzz-bombs". Some of them were "souped up" by using a special high-octane fuel and internal engine adjustments in order to increase the intake manifold pressure and made it possible to achieve a speed of 420 mph at 2000 feet. Since the typical V-1 flew at 370 mph, this made the "souped-up" Mustang very useful against these weapons.
why ask for engine durability?, we dont have
a 10 hour limit on 262 engines, that would mean what 2 or 3 sorites/rearms in same 262
before u had to replane or have engine failure.
this 1 said 420 @ 2k but ive also seen 450 @ 5k.
whels
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Originally posted by whels:
why ask for engine durability?, we dont have
a 10 hour limit on 262 engines, that would mean what 2 or 3 sorites/rearms in same 262
before u had to replane or have engine failure.
this 1 said 420 @ 2k but ive also seen 450 @ 5k.
whels
I haven't said I'd like to see engine damage modelled. It was just out of curiosity.
HOWEVER, the boosted performance was attained thanks to a special 150 octane "aromatic" fuel, and needed tweaking of the engine. Not only that but the "boost" to achieve the speeds you mention were just usable for 3 minutes, having to throttle back after that (WEP automatically off after 3 minuteS)...as you see I've looked for the matter :).
Anyway it is NOT a field modification (requires special engine tweaking work and ultra-high octane fuel that I'm sure wasnt everywhere), and it was NOT used in operational combat (you may think that running behind V1s was air to air combat, I think differently).
so, IMO, that modification has no place in AH, even as a perk . Feel free to disagree with me, of course...but is my take :).
[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Originally posted by R4M:
I haven't said I'd like to see engine damage modelled. It was just out of curiosity.
HOWEVER, the boosted performance was attained thanks to a special 150 octane "aromatic" fuel, and needed tweaking of the engine. Not only that but the "boost" to achieve the speeds you mention were just usable for 3 minutes, having to throttle back after that (WEP automatically off after 3 minuteS)...as you see I've looked for the matter :).
Anyway it is NOT a field modification (requires special engine tweaking work and ultra-high octane fuel that I'm sure wasnt everywhere), and it was NOT used in operational combat (you may think that running behind V1s was air to air combat, I think differently).
so, IMO, that modification has no place in AH, even as a perk . Feel free to disagree with me, of course...but is my take :).
[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
lol i like the way some of u throw around ur idea of combat, using your die of combat
80% of the ww2 pilot never were combat pilots lol. just because u didnt see a enemy
plane or shoot 1 down doesnt mean it wasnt
combat. dont tell the people saved by the V1 chasers they werent combat.
whels
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HOWEVER, the boosted performance was attained thanks to a special 150 octane "aromatic" fuel, and needed tweaking of the engine. Not only that but the "boost" to achieve the speeds you mention were just usable for 3 minutes, having to throttle back after that (WEP automatically off after 3 minuteS)...as you see I've looked for the matter
5 minutes, at least in the Spit IXs running 150 octane.
I have read that 150 octane fuel became quite common in RAF use from late 44 on. It was certainly developed and tested for general use, before the V-1s came along, so it would seem strange if they used it only for V-1 chasing then abandoned it.
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Hi,
though I think the idea that engines get generally damaged easily by running them at full power for more than a few minutes is flawed, the V-1 interceptors were actually boosted much to much higher power levels than fighters for normal operations.
I think this was not seen as a problem as a fighter whose engines seized off was over friendly territory as well as clear of enemy fighters in any case, and would have few problems getting down on the ground safely, though probably hanging from a parachute.
Here's what Eric Brown has to say on the issue:
"About mid-June a crash programme was initiated to improve the low-level performance of the Spitfire, Tempest V and Mustang III by using a specially developed 50 octane aromatic fuel to give abnormally high power for strictly short bursts. The engine atrrition rate would of course be high, but the urgency of the situation demanded drastic measures.
I was very involved in these exhilatrating trials requiring high speed runs at ground level, during which the Spitfire XIV with its Griffon boosted to +19 lb reached 365 mph, the Tempest V with its Sabre boosted to +10 1/4 lb hit 405 mph, while the Mustang III with its Merlin boosted to +25 lb actually attained 420 mph."
(from Brown's "Testing for Combat")
I gather he refers to the highest figure for each aircraft since he gives no altitude but mentions test runs at different altitudes.
During the tests, he had one Tempest's Sabre fail on him, so he unvoluntarily came to test the parachute descent bit as well.
It happened at the 3rd burst of extreme power during that flight, the first two having lasted 5 min each, and the 3rd run (at 7000 ft) producing serious engine trouble after 3.5 min. Though the engine continued to run at reduced throttle after instruments indicated heavy damage, it quit a few minutes later.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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I gather he meant 150 octane fuel.
isnt 50 octane like tire rubber?
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Hi R4M,
>Whels: yah, and I want that nice Fw190D9 with tweaked supercharger able to run at 405mph on the deck with C3 fuel (you dont want to know how much did that thing run at 10K, do you?).
For the 640 km/h (398 mph) sea level speed that's the maximum I've seen for the Fw 190D-9, the Jumo 213A actally employed the high-altitude gear down to sea level, so it actually was no special supercharger. Using 690 L/h B4 (not C3) fuel and 150 L/h MW50, this would yield the 2140 hp power output that's the familiar top end figure for the Jumo 213A.
The engine calibration chart for the Jumo actually shows the low-altitude gear yielding 2250 hp at sea level, which I estimate would result in the 405 mph top speed you quoted, but the Focke-Wulf speed graphs I know don't indicate that the low gear was actually used in this way.
Accordingly, if you have a bit missing in my puzzle, it would be greatly appreciated :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Hi Pongo,
>I gather he meant 150 octane fuel.
isnt 50 octane like tire rubber?
LOL!
You're right, I placed a typo in a strategic location there :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)