Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: PJ_Godzilla on April 07, 2010, 09:35:41 AM
-
I've noticed an annoying tendency among - it seems like - Corsair pilots. Typically, I'll see this when I'm flying a Spit VIII or IX.
Generally, with an F4U 1v1, it's fairly easy to get on the tail. Staying there is harder when the bogey engages in the following series:
starts a climbing turn
scrubs off a significant amount of speed
rolls into a sharp bank and kicks hard rudder in the same direction - can't tell if flaps are out
noses down
repeats
It seems to me the F4u pilot is here taking advantage of a very high low-speed instantaneous turn rate. I also recall seeing a similar tactic used by an N1K and a P-51.
Questions:
1. am I crazy?
2. Does anyone have any data on instantaneous turn rate (peak) versus speed for AHII types?
Lindy, notably, killed me this way something like 4 times before I got him on a snapshot the last time.
-
Its a lot easier to visualize with some film.
-
sounds like an stall turn, POH sort of says pony should be touchy when hard rudder and ron inputs are made together as snap rolls are prohibited ...
if it is what i have seen it is annoying as it results in a near 180deg aspect reversal and all of a sudden a tail chase becomes a ho, trouble if you don't pick it up right away ...
-
sounds like an stall turn, POH sort of says pony should be touchy when hard rudder and ron inputs are made together as snap rolls are prohibited ...
if it is what i have seen it is annoying as it results in a near 180deg aspect reversal and all of a sudden a tail chase becomes a ho, trouble if you don't pick it up right away ...
Usually, it's more gradual than a snap - just a speed-reduced high turn that tends to get the bogey crossing my lof for a possible snapshot. If done right, it can turn into a reversal or transition into a flat scissor. I've seen all three outcomes.
I apologize for no film. I have never filmed myself and probably should start. I'm embarassed to say that I don't yet know how and, further, that the key settings tend a bit different on my primary - a mac (e.g. fn f12 for centering my Trackir as opposed to F12 on a windows box).
If you suspend disbelief for a bit, imagine, when viewed from the top, my Spit's flat turn as a circle, the high-to-low turn of the f4u as rose petals that peak sharply outside my circle and cross my circle as chords - kind of like an old spirograph drawing. Any outcome of this is possible but, a pilot good enough to pull this one off in the worse turner seems to usually win. I should also note that they've usually got to have a little more smash than I to make it work - otherwise they can't get out of my lof initially.
-
kind of sounds like a stall turn at the top of a yo yo which is sort of wrong as yo yo is a way of preserving speed and energy without overshooting your enemy ...
but it could end up as that easily if you extend the vertical part of the yo yo to very very slow speeds turning the high yo yo into a stall turn at the top ...
a couple of nice things about defeating that ...
1) when a guy stalls nose high then reverses he is likely committed and therefore telegraphing his flight path for quite a while thereby setting himself up for a very long deflection shot if you can get gunfire going through his projected flight path ...
2) if you can cross his downward flight path going upward, safe from his gun solution (preferably under his wings) then you essentially have entered his vertical fight and as he is going down and you are going up there is a good chance you can achieve a position reversal ...
the specifics of how you do either of those things is dependent on the exact situation but you should bear in mind that you are ...
a) avoiding his gun solutions as the flight paths approach the cross
b) working for the rear position not the shot ...
(note even the lead deflection shot in #1 will usually leave you above and behind the target a/c)
... if you work for the shot it is likely that a HO will be the result and that is not your best option usually.
this is if i am visualizing your situation correctly ...
+S+
t
-
It sounds to me like a standard wing-over. The bogie climbs at whatever angle. As he reaches the top he drops flaps, kicks rudder and rolls into the turn, lifting one wing while dropping the other. The result is that he comes back down along almost the same path he took up.
Most American planes and particularily the Naval planes are very good at this. I use it all the time in the F6F. P-38's are also really good for this. The Spitfires... not so much. They tend to like to follow a more circular course.
Don't just start following the guy up. Use lag pursuit to maintain E and stay out of the path of his reverse. If he does get guns on you roll your facing wing toward him to reduce your profile. WEP on and immel over the top after you pass, then WEP off and you should catch him at the bottom. You might also need to reduce throttle on the way down to align a shot. If you have a lot of E you can start the immel then when you reach the top roll over and immel again. This will set up either a rope as he tries to climb to you or a series of BnZ passes by you which will keep him pinned down without E.
I went off-line and flew one just to give you the picture. This was done from a full speed level start at a couple thousand feet so, if the speeds were reduced, you can imagine how much tighter this would have been:
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/wingover.jpg)
Not being satisfied I went and took another. This one from a 200 mph start. Note how much tighter this is and that I never fully invert going over the top:
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/wingover2.jpg)
As I said, Spits just don't like to do this.
-
I think what is happening is a trick I like to use. I use it when I am being chased going over 350 mph and being caught for instance a high con dove on my six I drag him out but he is gaining. at about 1.5k I climb a bit and deploy 2 notches of flaps thus initiating the f4u's best turn radius I quickly nose down so he has to re adjust his aim quickly by this point he is about 800 ish out I flatten my wing to him and quickly pull into his flight path as he probably didnt lag persuit and went for the shot if he did follow lag I generally just full flat turn or yo yo as needed and initiate some rolling scissor once I am ready. I have this win for me mostly against spits who rely on their turn to win but the 2 notch flapped f4u is a better turner but doesnt gain e so it will win a flat turn but lose the vert game this way. So if the spit resorts to going vert I flatten and scoot away as the f4u is faster than the spit just takes time to build the speed.
-
If I understood, then the wing-over action requires low speed. So corsair pilot puts some notch of flaps down
to slow the plane quickly preserving altitude too and he gives rudder input to turn around yaw axis the plane.
Probably he gives also pitch down a bit to counter-act flaps boost. It requires timing and proper con distance evaluation. OR NOT! :O
:salute
-
If I understood, then the wing-over action requires low speed. So corsair pilot puts some notch of flaps down
to slow the plane quickly preserving altitude too and he gives rudder input to turn around yaw axis the plane.
Probably he gives also pitch down a bit to counter-act flaps boost. It requires timing and proper con distance evaluation. OR NOT! :O
:salute
Ideally you're at a low enough speed that when you lower the inside wing the rudder input rotates the plane around the inside (lowered) wing tip. This can be done with or without flaps.
In both screen shots above I was still above the ideal speed but the trail still illustrates the reverse well enough. In the top screen shot I had one notch of flaps deployed. In the second I had two notches out. Starting nearer stall speed, say 100-150 mph indicated with the reverse at 80-90 mph will make this very tight.
-
If a Hog doe what BE is showing in those SSs. And you cant kill him you got something completely wrong to being with like too much E. If i see a plane pull directly vertical in front of me Im gunna be filling him with lead or setting up the second approach before he comes out of that move :salute
-
If a Hog doe what BE is showing in those SSs. And you cant kill him you got something completely wrong to being with like too much E. If i see a plane pull directly vertical in front of me Im gunna be filling him with lead or setting up the second approach before he comes out of that move :salute
Remember this is where we start:
starts a climbing turn
scrubs off a significant amount of speed
rolls into a sharp bank and kicks hard rudder in the same direction - can't tell if flaps are out
noses down
repeats
Once that sequence begins the Spit has no choice but to continue a flat turn or an Immelman because he can't stay with that reverse. If he chooses the flat turn then this sequence of reverses is very effective at getting inside a tighter turning planes turn, thus my earlier recomendation to Immel. Keeping the fight vertical favors the Spit.
By your comment then no one should ever use a vertical move or you'll kill them. Well, I'd say that totally depends on the starting situation. In the screen shots above, too far back and I'm coming stright back down at you. Too close and you can't follow the reverse.
-
I apologize for no film. I have never filmed myself and probably should start. I'm embarassed to say that I don't yet know how and, further, that the key settings tend a bit different on my primary - a mac (e.g. fn f12 for centering my Trackir as opposed to F12 on a windows box).
To film (and review) your flights is easy- here's how...
Default to start (and stop) film is Alt-R. I re-mapped mine to just plain "R". At any point while playing, just hit Alt-R to start filming. When it's filming, you'll notice a small red "R" in the upper corner of your screen. When you hit Alt-R again, filming will stop, and the red "R" will be gone... When you stop filming, you'll be prompted to give it a name, or you can just save it as the number automatically assigned to it.
Now, out of the game, go review your film. To do that, go to My Computer/C Drive (unless you have the game installed on a different drive... Look for the Hitch Creations folder, and open it. In this folder, you'll see the Aces High folder, and inside that, you find a folder named "films"... Open that.
In this "films" folder you'll see some icons- those are your films. To watch one, just double click on it, or right-click/open it. Your film viewer will open. Click on the "Play" button.
In order to see your views better, you'll need to adjust them like you do in the game for the different planes. Use the number pad on the keyboard to look around, use the arrow keys and page up/dn to move your head, and use F10 to save those positions.
Normally, after your views are enabled, you can just click on the "Use recorded views" button, but I don't think that works right if you used TrackIr.
I find it helpful to review films with the "Enable Trails" and Icons selected as well.
Get that far, and I'll explain how to easily edit them, and post them.
-
The F4u is trying to cut inside your turning circle and will succeed. Do not let him do that by not making a turning circle. He dumped a lot of E and if you are not pressed for a quick kill, you now have full control of the battle as long as you maintain this advantage. He cannot run away. Immelman is one option but will leave you above him and a not-very-convenient position to follow up.
An option I like is the lag-displacement roll: pull up, but instead of going into an immelman, roll towards the direction he is crossing from - i.e. if he was in a right climbing turn, reversed and now crosses your path from right to left, roll RIGHT. Keep the plane lightly loaded (pull stick) while you roll, a bit like when doing a barrel roll but then stop rolling and pull out to be flying after him. Usually you end up pulling out between 180 and 270 degrees from the original direction (in the example you roll right and end up heading back-left from the original direction).
You maintain your position behind his wing line and out of your turning circle (hence "lag" & "displacement" in the name) and keep you speed higher than his so you immediately start closing in again. If he tries the same move again, he is predictable and you are ready for a snap shot and repeating your move. The important thing is to start the move before you go past him: you can try a snap shot and immediately pull up and roll after him. The time it takes to complete the roll builds the seperation, but you don't want to let him get too far. Adjust the separation by how much you pull up and the radius of the roll - it can be anything from almost aileron roll to a lazy barrel. It is a not a common ACM because it is not very intuitive. You will often confuse your opponent because he will not understand what you are trying to do.
-
I think what is happening is a trick I like to use. I use it when I am being chased going over 350 mph and being caught for instance a high con dove on my six I drag him out but he is gaining. at about 1.5k I climb a bit and deploy 2 notches of flaps thus initiating the f4u's best turn radius I quickly nose down so he has to re adjust his aim quickly by this point he is about 800 ish out I flatten my wing to him and quickly pull into his flight path as he probably didnt lag persuit and went for the shot if he did follow lag I generally just full flat turn or yo yo as needed and initiate some rolling scissor once I am ready. I have this win for me mostly against spits who rely on their turn to win but the 2 notch flapped f4u is a better turner but doesnt gain e so it will win a flat turn but lose the vert game this way. So if the spit resorts to going vert I flatten and scoot away as the f4u is faster than the spit just takes time to build the speed.
This is more like what I'm seeing - the pulling into my flight path is telling. It's not a wingover. The con typically doesn't pull that high. And, yes, generally, it's after I've dove on the con and have a little smash.
The only difference is that I'll see a similar maneuver repeated after the initial one. He'll, after the first one - if I pull lead - cross my path and I can take a snap at him. Miss, though, and I typically try to follow him around and find myself in lag and facing a repeat. You can see where it ends.
-
The F4u is trying to cut inside your turning circle and will succeed. Do not let him do that by not making a turning circle. He dumped a lot of E and if you are not pressed for a quick kill, you now have full control of the battle as long as you maintain this advantage. He cannot run away. Immelman is one option but will leave you above him and a not-very-convenient position to follow up.
An option I like is the lag-displacement roll: pull up, but instead of going into an immelman, roll towards the direction he is crossing from - i.e. if he was in a right climbing turn, reversed and now crosses your path from right to left, roll RIGHT. Keep the plane lightly loaded (pull stick) while you roll, a bit like when doing a barrel roll but then stop rolling and pull out to be flying after him. Usually you end up pulling out between 180 and 270 degrees from the original direction (in the example you roll right and end up heading back-left from the original direction).
You maintain your position behind his wing line and out of your turning circle (hence "lag" & "displacement" in the name) and keep you speed higher than his so you immediately start closing in again. If he tries the same move again, he is predictable and you are ready for a snap shot and repeating your move. The important thing is to start the move before you go past him: you can try a snap shot and immediately pull up and roll after him. The time it takes to complete the roll builds the seperation, but you don't want to let him get too far. Adjust the separation by how much you pull up and the radius of the roll - it can be anything from almost aileron roll to a lazy barrel. It is a not a common ACM because it is not very intuitive. You will often confuse your opponent because he will not understand what you are trying to do.
This sounds a lot like a high yoyo and it makes some sense. As he continues his arc in the hori plane, I'm out of plane on a helical trajectory that looks like it ends with me in lag. Actually, that's probably the diff b/w this and the yoyo. I'll try it. I see this F4U trick commonly enough that it is practicable.
Last night I flew the G14 with gondos (I was feeling brave) only and never got into a Spitter. The first F4U I saw was attempting a rocket run on my base. I was above him and timed my spiral to put me nicely on his 6 with plenty of smash. I don't think he ever saw me. That's one way to avoid the problem altogether.
-
Remember this is where we start:
starts a climbing turn
scrubs off a significant amount of speed
rolls into a sharp bank and kicks hard rudder in the same direction - can't tell if flaps are out
noses down
repeats
Once that sequence begins the Spit has no choice but to continue a flat turn or an Immelman because he can't stay with that reverse. If he chooses the flat turn then this sequence of reverses is very effective at getting inside a tighter turning planes turn, thus my earlier recomendation to Immel. Keeping the fight vertical favors the Spit.
By your comment then no one should ever use a vertical move or you'll kill them. Well, I'd say that totally depends on the starting situation. In the screen shots above, too far back and I'm coming stright back down at you. Too close and you can't follow the reverse.
Right - that's the dilemma exactly. The former situation is probably riskier for you due to the possibility of a HO - but you'd still have the advantage.
OTOH, Immel should mean I get to choose my vector by virtue of a simple vertical roll - and without giving you an alt advantage.
-
To film (and review) your flights is easy- here's how...
Default to start (and stop) film is Alt-R. I re-mapped mine to just plain "R". At any point while playing, just hit Alt-R to start filming. When it's filming, you'll notice a small red "R" in the upper corner of your screen. When you hit Alt-R again, filming will stop, and the red "R" will be gone... When you stop filming, you'll be prompted to give it a name, or you can just save it as the number automatically assigned to it.
THanks. I'm good with the viewing already but will attempt to film myself tonight.
-
This sounds a lot like a high yoyo and it makes some sense.
Not really like a yoyo. You start it at an opposite direction to what you would in a yoyo.
Check this out at 3:30 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQF7VFkaS2E&feature=related
They call it a series of yoyos and the chart indeed describe such yoyos, but the 3D render at 3:30 (also before) shows a lag roll - the mig is to the left, but the mirage rolls to the right 270 degrees and not to the left like it would for a yoyo.
-
I think what is happening is a trick I like to use.
whoever told you their are "TRICKS" told you wrong, if you did not recieve this "Tricks Theory " from anyone, then you need to reassess your thought process on BFM
I use it when I am being chased going over 350 mph and being caught for instance a high con dove on my six I drag him out but he is gaining. at about 1.5k I climb a bit and deploy 2 notches of flaps thus initiating the f4u's best turn radius
not all F4U series planes best turn radius is at the "2 notches of flaps extended" heck prob most of them are not, some may have a better "Sustained Turn Rate" at 2 notches, but not best turn radius, and then some have a better turnrate & Turn radius with all notches extended.......
I recommend you learn your F4U planes and their abilities and weaknesses
I quickly nose down so he has to re adjust his aim quickly by this point he is about 800 ish out I flatten my wing to him and quickly pull into his flight path as he probably didnt lag persuit and went for the shot if he did follow lag I generally just full flat turn or yo yo as needed and initiate some rolling scissor once I am ready.
you can not initiate a rolling scissors, "You can try to setup and overshoot and if lucky initiate/attempt a rolling scissors if your opponent takes the bait"
I have this win for me mostly against spits who rely on their turn to win but the 2 notch flapped f4u is a better turner
WRONG......... if you are beating spitfires in the F4U by just outturning them, it is not because the F4U turns better than the spit, It is because the person you are up against is not advanced as much as "you might be" in dogfighting..... or you are not straight up "outturning them" you are doing somethingmore than just turning....
but doesnt gain e so it will win a flat turn but lose the vert game this way. So if the spit resorts to going vert I flatten and scoot away as the f4u is faster than the spit just takes time to build the speed.
the spitfire can out accelerate the F4U initially, so you are getting lucky from your opponents poor gunnery......
I am not trying to pick on you, Greziz, but your description of "what to do" was very easy to show what was wrong information, Sir.....
hope this helps both the OP and you, in learning some untruths from your post :salute
-
I out flat turn spits on the deck more than once the spit once slow tends to flounder I have all notches of flaps extended and occasionally pop gear to lose airspeed if I am getting to fast. When I out turn them I am desperate and praying the spit is to dumb to give up the flat turn until it is to late. when I say to late I mean the spit generally stalls and has to straighten and I six him or god forbid he simply straighten on his own in an attempt to extend but panics when I fire at him pinging him 600 out. also 2 notches of flaps is the best extended turn radius which is what I meant. I only deploy 2 flaps when possible as it helps to not scrub e I might need. The f4u can out turn most of the spits in a flat turn! Now if the spit has any semblance of skill it wont commit to a SIMPLE FLAT TURN he will probably take advantage of his massive e producing plane and use yoyo's and what not or gain some e in a flat turn while he climbs a bit. When I see spits do this I tend to let them go up and when they come down I try to do some scissors or a barrel roll and spook em a bit gennerally I am to dead on e to do much unless they make foolish mistakes and I am trying to simply build some speed.
-
I read a very nice write up on the help board with neat graphs and what not that was all about the f4u and a seasoned pilot of the hog had posted it I can't bring myself to care to look it up again though. Any who as I said these are all just my play styles and tactics they are not for every one. By the by if your gunna rag on my strategies and try to quote my words please at least understand my meaning and idea's I am sorry if I can not convey everything perfectly. Example of this is when I state I initiate rolling scissors I stated I do them when I am ready not immediately after that overshoot.
[oh and tequila if you ever want to test my skill in a f4u I can duel you. I can assure you I am no push over in the bird I may fly the 39 alot but the f4u was my first serious killing plane especially when I was in the blacksheep. I might not beat you as I know your a very skilled hog pilot and you fly it regularly but I will be no pushover.]
-
I out flat turn spits on the deck more than once the spit once slow tends to flounder I have all notches of flaps extended and occasionally pop gear to lose airspeed if I am getting to fast. When I out turn them I am desperate and praying the spit is to dumb to give up the flat turn until it is to late. when I say to late I mean the spit generally stalls and has to straighten and I six him or god forbid he simply straighten on his own in an attempt to extend but panics when I fire at him pinging him 600 out. also 2 notches of flaps is the best extended turn radius which is what I meant. I only deploy 2 flaps when possible as it helps to not scrub e I might need. The f4u can out turn most of the spits in a flat turn! Now if the spit has any semblance of skill it wont commit to a SIMPLE FLAT TURN he will probably take advantage of his massive e producing plane and use yoyo's and what not or gain some e in a flat turn while he climbs a bit. When I see spits do this I tend to let them go up and when they come down I try to do some scissors or a barrel roll and spook em a bit gennerally I am to dead on e to do much unless they make foolish mistakes and I am trying to simply build some speed.
Greziz, Sir? are you able to meet me in the Training Arena this morning? I can meet you in there within the next hour, if you would like???
Also, could you please tell me where you are getting your F4U information and Spitfire information? or is it that this is just your experience in the Arenas?
The F4U planes WILL NOT OUT FLAT TURN a Spitfire
NOT ALL F4U planes aquire their best turn radius nor their best Sustained Turn rate AT 2 NOTCHES DEPLOYED
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU BE DROPPING GEAR IN THE F4U, AGAINST A SPITFIRE IN A FLAT TURN
I am willing to log in right now and work with you on your misconceptions.....
The only way I see any of what you have said to of worked for you, is because you are up against players less skilled than yourself......
If someone has told you to do all these things you are doing, please tell me who it is..... because it is wrong information ( you can PM me to keep it off the boards )
:salute
-
its not about how well you are in the F4U, I am simply trying to help you Greziz
heck, you prob can whip me all over the arena.......
but its the things you have posted, the ones I pointed out as being wrong information
I want to help you is all........
if a seasoned F4U pilot posted that stuff, I do not think you fully understood what he was saying......
lets meet in the TA
EDIT: Greziz, shoot me a PM or post back a reply here, if you would like to hook up in the Training Arena this morning...... I got to run down to the country store for a gal. of milk, but will be back in 15 minutes......
will check to see if you want to meet when I get back....
:salute
-
The F4U planes WILL NOT OUT FLAT TURN a Spitfire
For what it's worth, I absolutely LOVE THIS CHART, developed by Gavagai: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,275682.msg3476536.html#msg3476536
I've found it to generally be correct when bumped up against the hard pier of empiricity and am trying to make it second nature in evaluating method against a given opponent. You would, indeed, be hard pressed to find ANY SPit in the hierarchy that flat-turns worse than a Hawg - and Gav did run the tests flaps popped, if it helped. That said, I find some of the results surprising - like P-40 compared to 109 G-14, however, bear in mind this is simply a comparison of best rate versus best rate. The flight condition isn't in the chart -though I'd like to see 'em.
-
If you are losing to F4Us consistently in Spit8s and Spit9s, you are doing something terribly wrong. It has nothing to do with corner speeds.
-
If you are losing to F4Us consistently in Spit8s and Spit9s, you are doing something terribly wrong. It has nothing to do with corner speeds.
See OP. It's not F4U's in general, just one type of maneuver in particular and, in fact, one pilot who was using it. I've seen a similar thing, though, with Shiv when I took him on using an N1K - but had little trouble with his F4U from the seat of a Spit IX. Generally, I'd say, as long as you avoid the initial high-speed pass from the F4U, it's going to be all right. Same could be said for the Jug...
-
I tend to be asleep 8am to 4 pm I am a late nighter.
-
If you are losing to F4Us consistently in Spit8s and Spit9s, you are doing something terribly wrong. It has nothing to do with corner speeds.
I should add here, Grizz, I think Bozon's nailed it. This is classic - a faster a/c with a slightly better e-state using the vertical to beat the better flat-turner. The lag displacement roll is the way to go to counter. If I understand it correctly, you exit the helix in lag pursuit.
As for the F4U maneuver of which I wrote, the thing is, most pilots aren't good enough to use it. Lindy, however, burned me with it about 3 times in one day, memorably - though I snapshot him on the last attempt. I also think I've seen BParker use it in a C-Hawg.