Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: gatt on October 25, 2001, 01:29:00 PM
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(http://www.classic-books.co.uk/images/profiles/mistelprofile1.gif)
:)
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Hihihihi, want the Beethoven loadout ;)
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All kidding aside, the 190 is a great jabo. I don't know why LW types complain that they have no good jabos. It doesn't have the ord of the bigger jabos, but 1x500kg and all that ammo for strafing is very effective for taking fields. The quick roll rate makes it my favorite ack strafer.
ra
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We complain because the 190F8 (which is supposed to be the Jabo version) is a useless POS. You get the firepower of the Dora, combined with handling that is worse than the A8, and in exchange you get to carry 4 50kg bombs. Whoopy!
There need to be WAY more ordinance options for the 190F8- the plane could carry 1000 kg of bombs, it could carry air to ground rockets (which are quite nice for killing vehicles with), and it was (supposedly) armored even more than the A8. In AH it has none of this.
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Well if I fly 190f8 most of the time for jabo if not an a8.
Now if I were to fly as many jabo sorties in a jug my attack rank would be much higher.
In a 190f8 you have to use just about all you have to kill a hanger. Theres no problem with that. Not everything needs parity.
I enjoy flying the f8 and just wish for more ord loadouts as long as it falls within the scope of historical accuracy. Even lw bombers in ah dont carry the big bombs (see bradys post).
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maybe an Hs-129 B-1
or an Me-410 B-1/2?
both would be great planes for this.
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Originally posted by ra:
All kidding aside, the 190 is a great jabo. I don't know why LW types complain that they have no good jabos. It doesn't have the ord of the bigger jabos, but 1x500kg and all that ammo for strafing is very effective for taking fields. The quick roll rate makes it my favorite ack strafer.
ra
Well, yahknow ,ra...I would mostly agree with you, if it wasnt for the fact that...
the Fw190F8 lacks 80% of its historical loadout. We dont say its not a good jabo. We say that we lack the weapons to MAKE IT a good jabo.
Right now people fly F8 because is pretty (beautiful skin), its historical, and it doesnt hurt their A8 score (sic.). They should be flying the F8 because it should be able to carry 3 heavy bombs, or one bomb and two DTs, or one DT and two bombs, or 8 light bombs, or 4 light bombs AND two medium bombs, or antitank rockets, or...
you get the idea?. We have the plane. Now we lack the loadout options.
Is really something to be pissed about (moreover if we remember that the rediculous P47D30 full-loadout is still there for anyone to get it up to hte sky...)
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The 190D9, the A8 ,and F8 could carry a much wider Jabo load than the one that is portrayed in AH. That's one of the biggest complaints we all have,than rather planes like the Jug and EVEN the pony,havea large amount of ordinance selection they have in AH compared to the historical load of those mentioned.
I have no complaints of the potential historic Jabo capabalities of the 190s in AH they just need the bombs to get the job done a single 500KG bomb is not enough and it isn't enough for any of these.
HTC should consider and add the ordinance for these aircraft, since Jabo we're underpowered and undergunned.
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Ya know I typed a realy long rank and just deleated it,I am burt on complaning,weary of my campaign for equality in country's, aircraft modeling(tank, boat).
Pyro models stuff to fill gaps in the plane set and picks the best platform to do it with regardless of country of orgin.Ya cant please all the people all the time.
It would be nice to have a few more bomb options for Axis aircraft, heck the George could cary 4 50kg bombs instead of the 2 250kg bombs to but I am not asking for miricals :)
A spell checker would be cool though :)
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how could that thing take off?
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Well, I can rutinely kill 3 GVs with 190F's bombs...1 with the 500 kg and 2x50 kg/GV pops them almost every time.
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no toejame janjan we all can thats the average fer any jabo plane. With the exception of the jug most US planes carry 2 bombs plus rockets. 3 gv kills are about average with those planes.
The fact is ther are ord options that aren't modeled for the 190s (as well as many others who I could care less about :)). The ability to kill more then 3 gvs isnt going to happen with an expanded loadout for the f8. Theres only so much ord you can strap to it. But the the new "kill the whole town" theres more you can do with say 2x250kgs then 4 50s.
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We could use the following for 190 Jabo.
A 190D9 option to carry 4 50kg underwing bombs.
A 1000kg bomb for 190F8. (also to Ju88)
Armor piercing 20mm ammo modeling for 190f8.
Time delay fuzes for 190f8 bombs.
More armor to 190f8, apparently the extra weight is modeled while the extra protection is not.
24 Panzerblitz 55mm HEAT rockets under the wings.
More options to carry bombs/fuel under the wings.
The P47 and P51 currently carry historcally impossible jabo loads, the LW 190s should at least get its full historicaly possible jabo loads.
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Also we need antipersonel clusterbombs and also antitank cluster bombs. The antipersonell cluster bomb had 96 2kg HE bomblets encased in standard "bomb like" cylinder. The LW had and used both during the war.
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<<<the Fw190F8 lacks 80% of its historical loadout. We dont say its not a good jabo. We say that we lack the weapons to MAKE IT a good jabo.>>>
To MAKE IT a good jabo by your standards would require allowing ord loadouts which were never or rarely ever used in combat, and some of which would require that guns and armor be removed. I don't think the AH FM is set up for that. And if you start allowing oddball ord loudouts it opens a can of worms. Both the Hog and the P-38 were tested with 2x2K bombs. If that was available in AH it would leave the LW grumbling because even a 190A8 with 1000 Kg of bombs doesn't match it.
If there AH had important targets worthy of a 50Kg bomb the 190F8 would probably be more popular as a jabo. The Il2 has the same problem in that many of it's typical historic loadouts are useless in AH.
Instead of asking for sci-fi loadouts the LW should present proof to HTC that U.S. jabos weren't loaded with full bombs AND ammo AND rockets AND fuel in combat. That and some small targets for the 50Kg bombs would make the 190 look more like a serious jabo when compared with US iron. And that's what this is really all about.
ra
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We could use the following for 190 Jabo.
A 190D9 option to carry 4 50kg underwing bombs.
A 1000kg bomb for 190F8. (also to Ju88)
Armor piercing 20mm ammo modeling for 190f8.
Time delay fuzes for 190f8 bombs.
More armor to 190f8, apparently the extra weight is modeled while the extra protection is not.
24 Panzerblitz 55mm HEAT rockets under the wings.
More options to carry bombs/fuel under the wings.
In which sentence do you see "sci-fi" loadouts
Wotan has 31 kills and has been killed 10 times in the Fw 190F-8.
The 190f8 is a good plane but it could carry more then its current loadout. If asking for its options to be expanded is a "whine" ......... then so what dont read it.
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brady knows far greater then you about ord loadouts and he has posted about them. In this his thread you can see he is tired of banging his head against the "your a whiner" whiner crew.
[ 10-27-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
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ra
No guns were removed on either 190F8 or 190D9 to mount diffrent ground attack weapon loads. Why not allow the 55mm HEAT rockets. Are rockets sci-fi? Are cluster bombs sci-fi? toejam the LW 109Es widely used an early "cluster bomb" design during the June 1941 Barbarossa attack against Riussia. Is an in service 1941 weapon system sci-fi to you? Is armor piercing 20mm antitank ammo sci-fi as well? There is evidence from tests that the AH 190F8 MG151 models no AP ammo whatsover, look that up if you dont belive me. None of these loadouts required the removal of armor either.
These were all serivce loads that are fair to add to the AH 190s and 109s.
My most imortant requests are.
1000kg bomb for the 190 f8, also for Ju88.
24 55mm HEAT rockets for the 190s.
Cluster bombs for 190 and 109. The most widely used model contained 96 2kb bombs in a typical blunt nosed bomb like case. Actually it looks identical to modern CBUs.
Ability for Dora to mount 4 50kg bombs on the wings, mounting identical to 190f8.
Abilty for the 190f8 to carry a more diverse wing loadout. Tanks or bombs.
20mm armor piercing ammo mix for the 190f8.
Time delay fuzes for 190F8 bombs. (This one is risky due to possible use as carbomb trick so Im not sure it should be done without some wat to solve that issue)
ra, my friend, now why dont you go ask HTC to eliminate all those "sci-fi" bombs and rockets all the other planes have.... :)
[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: GRUNHERZ ]
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if you worried so much about "rare" loadouts thats onething.
But the 190f8 is about as rare you get in the main. adding rockets to it isnt going to make any less rare. Couple that with other "rare" things that are found in the main (50cal lancs chogs arados 152s etc...) I dont think that rarity should automatically eliminate any option. As it stands now rarity doesn't exclude a lot of other things.
[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
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190f8 with more options and something also for 262 plzz i realy miss the WR21 rocket for it, with 10 those rocket even turbo laser dead star,, b17 will be never safe, just like real life ;)
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Ra, I don't know where this remark about the 190 F8 having a rare load out came from, it did carry at least 2 under wing 250kg(500pounder) bombs . The F8 was extensively used in the Eastern Front and took about most air to ground attack operations of the Stuka. By no means the use of rockets and these heavy bombs was rare.
It indeed was used throught the summer of 1944 right up until the end of hostilities. The 190 F8s could even carry 2 under wing Fuel tanks for long operations.
The D9 was used as Jabo from the period of Dec '44 til' March 1945. Amazing how they as their whole country was being destroyed around them, they continued to launch operations and at least make a delivery of their weapons,not neccesarily effective, but without suffering heavy casualties.
The 190 F8 at least, is under powered for its intended role of carrying out ground attack operations, it had a wide selection of ammo. I would compare it as to having to send a knight to fight a battle fully armored at sea,it just doesn't make sense. This aircraft had strengthened wings to support the weight of the added bombs and rockets it's just a simple request to see this aircraft corrected with at least a portion of its intended Jabo weapons.
P.S. Animal how would it take off?... How does the Jug take off? :cool:
[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: Glasses ]
[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: Glasses ]
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Originally posted by ra:
To MAKE IT a good jabo by your standards would require allowing ord loadouts which were never or rarely ever used in combat, and some of which would require that guns and armor be removed. I don't think the AH FM is set up for that.
That is complete roadkill, RA.
-The Fw190F8 could carry one 1000kg bomb in the centerline rack without ANY modification.
-The Fw190F8 could carry FOUR 50kg bombs inthe centerline rack without ANY modification (I think it could carry up to 8, but not sure)
-The FW190F8 could carry 250kg bombs in the wings with NO modification.
-The Fw190F8 could carry Drop tanks in the wings with NO modification.
-The Fw190F8 could carry R4M rockets with NO modification (other than wooden racks to carry them)...granted those were rare...but...
-The Fw190F8 could carry PanzerBlitz rockets with NO modification other than the wing instalation...(no more modification than what a tiffie needs to carry eight rockets)
-The Fw190F8 flew operationally without the 13mm machineguns A LOT. (in fact many 190As flew without hte MGs either...but WE DONT HAVE THE OPTION TO --NOT-- FLY WITH MG)
ALL---I remark---ALL the above mentioned weapons were WIDELY used in fw190F8 in combat, Xcept for the R4M rockets.
Sci-Fi?...Sci-fi is a P47D30 with 100% fuel, MG overload, 2500lbs of bombs and 10 HVAR rockets.
THAT is Sci-fi. Not a Fw190F8 with 250kg boms on the wing, dangit. :mad:
[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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R4M, unfortunately the 50kg centerline bombs would be useless here. I'd like to see proof that the 190 ever carried 250kg on the wings in combat. I've seen 1 picture of it, on the ground. And the air to ground rockets were only rarely used, semi-experimentally in combat. By 1944 most of the pilots were barely given any training to fly the plane, let alone fire rockets with an effective range of 300 meters. The Jabo units stuck mostly with dumb bombs which were comparativly easy to use. The aircraft mounted Panzerblitz and Panzerschreck and wire guided missiles and recoiless guns were all tested in combat but I've never seen proof that any unit ever used them to actually get the job done. And if you read my post you would see I agree about the US jabo loadouts.
Wotan, I think I recall someone posting a scan of drawings of all kind of loadouts for the 190F8, was that Brady's post? Drawings proove nothing. I also recall a link to a website that referred to the 190F8-U1 as carrying something like 1x500kg and 2x250kg. However I've only ever seen the 190F8-U1 described as a 2-seat trainer. I think RAFM Hendon may even have one on display. Brady probably knows more than I do, but he, and the rest of you, haven't convinced me that what you want in AH is historically realistic. I've never called anyone a whiner on this issue, I want all planes to have realisitic loadouts, not rare configurations no one can proove saw significant use.
The 190F8 was designed to serve as a jack of all trades jabo so it was tested with all sorts of things. But combat units don't go for fancy new toys when their job is already incredibly dangerous. You guys are using the F8's experimental history has an excuse to bring all sorts of gamey weapons into the game.
ra
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And the air to ground rockets were only rarely used, semi-experimentally in combat.
Well, to put it bluntly, that's just bullchit. I'd like to see your source for that. The Panzerblitz was a R4M rocket modified with a shaped charge warhead. Nothing experimental about it; it was used quite a bit.
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Hi Ra,
The reason the 250 kg wing bombs saw little use operationally was that the 4 x 50 kg bombs were more effective for the missions flown by the Focke-Wulf fighter bombers.
If Aces High doesn't accurately portray the effectiveness of the 4 x 50 kg bombs, or if the ground attack missions in Aces High don't portray the historical reality correctly, I don't see any reason to disallow the 2 x 250 kg wing bomb option.
That the Focke-Wulf was technically capable of carrying 2 x 250 kg wing bombs - in addition to a fuselage bomb - should be beyond doubt.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)