Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: stealth on April 11, 2010, 05:23:23 AM
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What do you think of Jesse James,Robert Ford. What's your opinion about the assassination.
What do you think happened to Billy the Kid,some people say he was killed. Others say he lived as Billy Robert.
What are some good western movies involving these characters in general or just any western movie.
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Jesse James was never killed.
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I think Ol Bob Ford got more than what he deserved in the end. Nothing like a point blank high powered rifle shot to your face to make your day!
On the other hand Jesse James was cold blooded killer and the old saying goes, "live by the sword and you will die by the sword".
Todd
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Jesse only killed who needed killin'.
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One thing to note about most of the great villians and heroes of the Old West. They all were born in the great state of Missouri which I was also born in. The underlying cause to most of the train robberies and other dastardly deeds were in part to the expansion of the railroad and the aftermath of the destruction fron the Civil War.
In a time where men could choose the easy path of being an outlaw, they were often hunted by other men who switched sides when large sums of money flowed from the government and private industry. It could be said that all it took was a very large bribe for wanted men to disappear in other parts of the country and live new lives with new identities.
Do I believe that Pat Garret shot Billy the Kid in the back and in the middle of the night? It's possible and the best way for Garret to actually have a chance on doing that cowardly deed especially after a night of drinking on Kid's part.
Do I believe that the breakdown of the James and Younger gang was due to the celebrity status of Jesse James? It's possible that some members of the gang felt like they were second banana to JJ.
Most likely will be the cases of photographs of dead outlaws with victorious lawmen standing triumphantly over the dead bodies and the term lawmen in a very loose way with so much side switching will be based soley on the lawmen saying, "That was Bob "Hatchet" Henderson". The lawlessnes of the time will allow those so called eyewitness testimony to be used for official purposes.
I would rather believe that some outlaws were killed and the rest faded away into time and the actions of what they did lived into legends and tall tales. This will go into the books just like the disappearance of Amelia Earhart, Flight 17, and the pursuit of D.B. Cooper.
On a side note, Missouri did produce an American President that made the ultimate decision during wartime that fits in good with the game we play here. Harry S. Truman made the decision for the use of atomic weapons in wartime. Texans like to say "Don't mess with Texas" but in Missouri we like to say "Show me the Mushroom".
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Well in the movie the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert ford. Jesse James died he put his guns on the couch still in there holster. He said that pictures dusty ford did it from there. You think Jesse James knew it was over for him?
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Jesse only killed who needed killin'.
Yea, those many Union soldiers who surrendered to his force and laid down there rifles, only to be lined up and shot in the back, Yea... ... they had it coming.
Oh yes, and all those train conductors, bank tellers and guards, of course they where a menace to society and had to be put down. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
The man was a thief and a cowardly murderer, I don't care what perceived injustice he suffered, or how rough his childhood was, there can be no excuse for his crimes. It sickens me that some people today seem to idolize him as a hero, and not the evil murdering SOB that he truly was.
And yes, it seems pretty black and white to me that James was killed by Ford, and that Billy was killed by Pat Garret. The one old west mystery that is a lot more grey is this;
Was Butch Cassidy killed in Bolivia by the Army as Pinkertons claim, or did he escape and return to his ranch in Utah as many of his descendants claim?
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One thing to note about most of the great villians and heroes of the Old West. They all were born in the great state of Missouri which I was also born in. The underlying cause to most of the train robberies and other dastardly deeds were in part to the expansion of the railroad and the aftermath of the destruction fron the Civil War.
In a time where men could choose the easy path of being an outlaw, they were often hunted by other men who switched sides when large sums of money flowed from the government and private industry. It could be said that all it took was a very large bribe for wanted men to disappear in other parts of the country and live new lives with new identities.
Do I believe that Pat Garret shot Billy the Kid in the back and in the middle of the night? It's possible and the best way for Garret to actually have a chance on doing that cowardly deed especially after a night of drinking on Kid's part.
Do I believe that the breakdown of the James and Younger gang was due to the celebrity status of Jesse James? It's possible that some members of the gang felt like they were second banana to JJ.
Most likely will be the cases of photographs of dead outlaws with victorious lawmen standing triumphantly over the dead bodies and the term lawmen in a very loose way with so much side switching will be based soley on the lawmen saying, "That was Bob "Hatchet" Henderson". The lawlessnes of the time will allow those so called eyewitness testimony to be used for official purposes.
I would rather believe that some outlaws were killed and the rest faded away into time and the actions of what they did lived into legends and tall tales. This will go into the books just like the disappearance of Amelia Earhart, Flight 17, and the pursuit of D.B. Cooper.
On a side note, Missouri did produce an American President that made the ultimate decision during wartime that fits in good with the game we play here. Harry S. Truman made the decision for the use of atomic weapons in wartime. Texans like to say "Don't mess with Texas" but in Missouri we like to say "Show me the Mushroom".
It's true many of the "Lawmen" of that era where no saints either, look into Bat Masterson's life for example, but that is still no excuse for the criminals.
Oh and I'd wager that D.B. Cooper went splat.
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I'm pretty sure that Sandra Bullock didn't kill him... But she is probably sending some lawyers to take him out... :bolt:
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Well what about Billy the Kid,now he was more then a murder then Jesse James. Jesse James I suppose you can say to was a murder. In the beginning he had a reason to do that. Nearing the end he became obsessed with power and then really became a murder. I'm not sure but correct me if I'm wrong.
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Well what about Billy the Kid,now he was more then a murder then Jesse James. Jesse James I suppose you can say to was a murder. In the beginning he had a reason to do that. Nearing the end he became obsessed with power and then really became a murder. I'm not sure but correct me if I'm wrong.
Soooo.... because he has a reason to murder it was OK :rolleyes:
Every murderer has a reason, even the crazy ones, from "he was cheating with my wife." to "god told me too." that doesn't excuse it. JJ started out with a Confederate guerrilla group that took no prisoners, and executed numerous unarmed Union soldiers after they surrendered. I've never seen this movie you speak of, but it sounds like it glorifies a cold-blooded killer, not the kind of movie I would ever watch.
I don't know as much about William Bonney, but didn't he claim to have killed more then 21 men. I doubt if that many could be excused as self-defense or the like. So I'm pretty sure that he was an evil SOB too. Yet it seems that more people want to make Pat Garret out as the bad guy, heck maybe they were both bad guys IDK.
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Yea, those many Union soldiers who surrendered to his force and laid down there rifles, only to be lined up and shot in the back, Yea... ... they had it coming.
Oh yes, and all those train conductors, bank tellers and guards, of course they where a menace to society and had to be put down. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
The man was a thief and a cowardly murderer, I don't care what perceived injustice he suffered, or how rough his childhood was, there can be no excuse for his crimes. It sickens me that some people today seem to idolize him as a hero, and not the evil murdering SOB that he truly was.
And yes, it seems pretty black and white to me that James was killed by Ford, and that Billy was killed by Pat Garret. The one old west mystery that is a lot more grey is this;
Was Butch Cassidy killed in Bolivia by the Army as Pinkertons claim, or did he escape and return to his ranch in Utah as many of his descendants claim?
you know nothing about Jesse James. Do some research and turn off the History channel.
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I think Ol Bob Ford got more than what he deserved in the end. Nothing like a point blank high powered rifle shot to your face to make your day!
On the other hand Jesse James was cold blooded killer and the old saying goes, "live by the sword and you will die by the sword".
Mine is if you live by the interstate, you will die by the pickup-truck.
-Penguin
Todd
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Saggs seriously. Yes it's very bad to murder I'm not saying it was ok because he had a reason. I'm simply saying he never always was a pure murder.
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Saggs seriously. Yes it's very bad to murder I'm not saying it was ok because he had a reason. I'm simply saying he never always was a pure murder.
It was just the "I suppose" part in your post that threw me. There is no suppose in it, he was a murderer, that's fact not supposition.
Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning, I struggled a bit in comprehending your post.
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you know nothing about Jesse James. Do some research and turn off the History channel.
I suppose your going to tell me he had nothing to do with killing unarmed Union POWs, or killing bank, and train guards.
Enlighten me please on how those soldiers, or several bank and train guards who were just doing their job making an honest living deserved to be gunned down in cold blood.
PS. I've never watched the history channel.
Oh, and my favorite outlaw westerns are Unforgiven, and the man with no name trilogy.
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:rolleyes:
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It was just the "I suppose" part in your post that threw me. There is no suppose in it, he was a murderer, that's fact not supposition.
Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning, I struggled a bit in comprehending your post.
Matters the point of view you look at it from.
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I suppose your going to tell me he had nothing to do with killing unarmed Union POWs, or killing bank, and train guards.
Enlighten me please on how those soldiers, or several bank and train guards who were just doing their job making an honest living deserved to be gunned down in cold blood.
PS. I've never watched the history channel.
as opposed to what? The railroad robber barons that stole land for their own gain, or the Pinkertons that killed helpless women and children, or maybe the union army the raped, pillaged and burned Atlanta..and Richmond?
P.S. my favorite outlaw western is Outlaw Josey Wales...go figure.
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They all had there own reasons but if the railroad didn't steal there money do all that evil stuff. Then Jesse James would never even became a murder. Besides killing POWs is one thing killing helpless civilians is another.
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They all had there own reasons but if the railroad didn't steal there money do all that evil stuff. Then Jesse James would never even became a murder. Besides killing POWs is one thing killing helpless civilians is another.
Though out history civilians are murder for various reasons. What Jesse James did is just a small pin salamander compared to what some a-holes did
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as opposed to what? The railroad robber barons that stole land for their own gain, or the Pinkertons that killed helpless women and children, or maybe the union army the raped, pillaged and burned Atlanta..and Richmond?
P.S. my favorite outlaw western is Outlaw Josey Wales...go figure.
Just read an excellent book on the "March". It seems "foraging for food" was turned into "wholesale rape". Of the handful of cases that involved rape, the Union offenders were not only court-martial-ed, they were hung. The most acquired foods were either Hogs or Turnips. All Sherman did was sever the supply line from Augusta. He even by passed South Carolina but he did encourage "scorched Earth", which hurt the morale of the CSA.
I suggest reading "Southern Storm" by Noah Andre Trudeau.
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Just read an excellent book on the "March". It seems "foraging for food" was turned into "wholesale rape". Of the handful of cases that involved rape, the Union offenders were not only court-martial-ed, they were hung. The most acquired foods were either Hogs or Turnips. All Sherman did was sever the supply line from Augusta. He even by passed South Carolina but he did encourage "scorched Earth", which hurt the morale of the CSA.
I suggest reading "Southern Storm" by Noah Andre Trudeau.
Good book.
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as opposed to what? The railroad robber barons that stole land for their own gain, or the Pinkertons that killed helpless women and children, or maybe the union army the raped, pillaged and burned Atlanta..and Richmond?
P.S. my favorite outlaw western is Outlaw Josey Wales...go figure.
As opposed to nothing. I'm not making any comparisons here.
Your making excuses for the horrible things he did, just because other people have done worse. Heck, Hitler/Eichmann murdered 6 million Jews, so by your reasoning if I only kill 2 million I'm a great guy. Right and wrong just IS, it is NOT based on a sliding scale or graded on a curve off of what others have done. Just because others have done worse then I, does not make the bad things I do right.
It's called personal responsibility, JJ is responsible for his own despicable acts, regardless of what others around him were doing.
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as opposed to what? The railroad robber barons that stole land for their own gain, or the Pinkertons that killed helpless women and children, or maybe the union army the raped, pillaged and burned Atlanta..and Richmond?
P.S. my favorite outlaw western is Outlaw Josey Wales...go figure.
Confederate General Hood burned Atlanta. Actually, he burned military stores as his army evacuated. However, the fires got out of control, burning down a substantial portion of the city. No one burned Richmond.
Maybe you SHOULD turn on the History Channel....
My regards,
Widewing
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They all had there own reasons but if the railroad didn't steal there money do all that evil stuff. Then Jesse James would never even became a murder. Besides killing POWs is one thing killing helpless civilians is another.
Again you can't blame what he did on anybody but himself.
I can say if Hitlers mother hadn't been an abused servant in a Jewish household when he was young, that he never would have instigated the holocaust. It's just as true as your statement, but in no way excuses his actions.
And in my mind executing unarmed soldiers who have surrendered and lain down their arms, is as much murder as is killing civilians.
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Buddy nobody asked you on what your opinion was on Jesse James murdering people. All I said was what you think off the assassination of him. Why do you half to bring it up.
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Again you can't blame what he did on anybody but himself.
I can say if Hitlers mother hadn't been an abused servant in a Jewish household when he was young, that he never would have instigated the holocaust. It's just as true as your statement, but in no way excuses his actions.
And in my mind executing unarmed soldiers who have surrendered and lain down their arms, is as much murder as is killing civilians.
This isn't about no kid having a bad child hood. This is about people he knew being murdered. Was he just gonna stand there on the side lines and wait for them to die. The only reason he became a true murder is like I said,simple he became rich was talked all over the country,had $25,000 find on him. He became so overpowered with power he became then a true murder. The soldiers signed up for it,the civilians didn't there's no comparison to me.
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Buddy nobody asked you on what your opinion was on Jesse James murdering people. All I said was what you think off the assassination of him. Why do you half to bring it up.
Umm, if your talking to me, I didn't bring it up Uptown did, see reply # 3. He seems to think that his killing was justified and I responded because I strongly disagree.
I can't see how I'm out of line here, if your afraid of a little debate then you shouldn't post topics about controversial characters like Jesse James because they are... wait for it... ... controversial. People have strong feelings about stuff like this, which is why politics is verboten on here, and why I'm gonna step away from this now before it gets locked.
As far as his assassination, I would rather have seen him caught and put on trial.
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Well we all got our own opinion. What do you think of Billy the Kid?
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Well we all got our own opinion. What do you think of Billy the Kid?
Over rated.
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Anybody know any other famous wild west criminals.
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Confederate General Hood burned Atlanta. Actually, he burned military stores as his army evacuated. However, the fires got out of control, burning down a substantial portion of the city. No one burned Richmond.
Maybe you SHOULD turn on the History Channel....
My regards,
Widewing
I'm glad you posted this actually.
Several years ago I was researching my family tree and I couldn't find anything prior to 1865 because the records were destroyed by fire. I've always assumed the Union army did it during the siege of Richmond. There's is no doubt in my mind that Richmond did in fact burn, but after digging deeper for info on this, I found that it was the Confederates that set fire to the city.
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As opposed to nothing. I'm not making any comparisons here.
Your making excuses for the horrible things he did, just because other people have done worse. Heck, Hitler/Eichmann murdered 6 million Jews, so by your reasoning if I only kill 2 million I'm a great guy. Right and wrong just IS, it is NOT based on a sliding scale or graded on a curve off of what others have done. Just because others have done worse then I, does not make the bad things I do right.
It's called personal responsibility, JJ is responsible for his own despicable acts, regardless of what others around him were doing.
Fair enough :salute
P.S. the statement "JJ only killed who needed killing" was a troll. Seems I caught a Great Northern :D
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I suggest reading "Southern Storm" by Noah Andre Trudeau.
I'll definitely look around for this book. Thanks :salute