Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: niklas on April 08, 2001, 08:54:00 AM

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: niklas on April 08, 2001, 08:54:00 AM

M. Williams published some excellent performance charts for the typhoon:
 http://users.supernet.com/lecc/typhoon.html (http://users.supernet.com/lecc/typhoon.html)

The test is interesting, because it mentions correction factors.

It is unbelievable, but we have a Typhoon with a performance that does represent ASI but not TAS

result from this test (with +7boost = AH normal 100% without wep)
ASI : 362mph in 1k
TAS: 345mph in 1k

According to the curves, the TAS of the Typhoon at sealevel was only 340mph (+7 boost)

It´s really unbelievable, the intstrument of the typhoon had an error of almost +20mph at sealevel, and that´s the reason why all sources claim an excellent speed for the typhoon (and for the tempest, too??)

niklas


[This message has been edited by niklas (edited 04-08-2001).]

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: Citabria on April 08, 2001, 10:07:00 AM

hmm if thats true it woulld make more sense of the stories i heard of spitfires running down typhyies and tempests in mock dogfights

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: fscott on April 08, 2001, 12:11:00 PM

Even more informative would be to gather all the pertinent data such as drag/prop efficiency/thrust/etc... then figure out the sea level speed yourself.

But it would be nice if the HT team would seriously look at this. Afterall, do we all not want realism when it comes to ac performance?

fscott

[This message has been edited by fscott (edited 04-08-2001).]

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: wells on April 08, 2001, 01:16:00 PM

It looks like HTC might be using prototype data (P5212), which was without any cannons, I believe.  That aircraft was capable of 390+ at 8k and hit 410 at 20k.

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: niklas on April 08, 2001, 03:53:00 PM

 

Quote

Even more informative would be to gather all the pertinent data such as drag/prop efficiency/thrust/etc... then figure out the sea level speed yourself

you don´t need to find out such data to see that something is wrong with the typhoon in AH.

Just compare it to the tempest:
The climbrate of the tempest is +1k/min better in AH. That´s a lot. Both aircrafts have approximatly the same weight. Logical conclusion: The Tempest must have a lot more power (~3-400HP)

The topspeed of the tempest in AH is 13mph higher, according to the charts.

original AFDU trials of the tempest prooved that the tempest had a better aerodynamic. It was with the same engine 15mph faster than the typhoon.

So how does this make sense that the AH Typhoon is only 13mph slower compared to the tempest with worse aerodynamics and some hundred HP less?? I wondered myself about this already in the last threat about the tempest. The current topspeed of the tempest is ~390mph. Substract 10mph due to the better aerodynamics for the tempest, and you´re already at 380mph. And ~400hp less power makes only a difference of 5mph (to come down to the topspeed of the typhoon (375 mph) ) ???
In the last threat about the tempest i thought the tempest is maybe too slow, but oviously i was wrong. The Typhoon is too fast here in AH. And now i know why.

niklas

[This message has been edited by niklas (edited 04-08-2001).]

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: mw on April 08, 2001, 05:21:00 PM

Well AH's Tempest and Typhoon performance is a bit of a mystery to me.  There are no offical reports from A.& A.E.E. to the Air Ministry or the Ministry of Aircraft Production showing that kind of performance.
The A.& A.E.E. reports detail what was accepted as the "offical" performance of a tested airplane.

However...

AH's curves for both Tempest and Typhoon "look" like Tempest and Typhoon curves.  
Here's my best guess:

Pyro found some numbers from the manufacturer.  These are "kinda" close:

Typhoon IB with a Sabre IIA: 412mph at 19,000 ft.

Tempest V with a Sabre IIB: 426mph at 18,500 ft.

Either that or AH doesn't use war time performance tests but rather "engineers" their airplane performance.

Maybe wells is right, as he said A.& A.E.E tested P5212 and got 410 at 20k.  Doesn't match up with AH's Typhoon curve though.  dunno <shrug>

Niklas, you're right about one thing tho, that Position Error Correcton is on the high side from what I'm used to seeing.  The Tempest also had similar position error corrections: At sea level T.A.S. 376, I.A.S. 398, P.E.C. -23.9


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Tempest Performance Testing (http://users.supernet.com/lecc/tp.html)
Spitfire Performance Testing (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html)

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: wells on April 08, 2001, 06:23:00 PM

mw,

The Sabre IIA engine could apparently run at +9 for combat, according to the Typhoon pilot manual.  Maybe that has something to do with it?

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: GRUNHERZ on April 08, 2001, 07:51:00 PM

Plus its roll rate in AH is almost double the RL roll rate all speeds, looks like whole Typhoon FM could use a redo sometime soon.

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: mw on April 09, 2001, 09:07:00 AM

wells, certainly increasing boost should improve performance.

From the report I posted, top speed of a Typhoon IB with a Sabre II(not Sabre IIA) was 394 1/2 mph at 20,200. The Sabre II ran at +7 boost 5 minute limit.

Putting a Sabre IIA in a Typhoon increased top speed to 412mph at 19,000 ft. The Sabre IIA ran at +9 boost 5 minute limit.

Yes, once sufficient Sabre IIAs became available in 1944, the Typhoon started to get them...priority went to the Tempest V though.

I have the report on the Tempest V prototype at home.  It was equipped with a Sabre II.  I'll post back with some data later.  It will be interesting to see the relative performace differences between a Typhoon IB and the Tempest prototype, both equipped with the same engine.

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Tempest Performance Testing (http://users.supernet.com/lecc/tp.html)
Spitfire Performance Testing (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html)

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: StSanta on April 09, 2001, 09:13:00 AM

Fix this  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

ManedeW will be crying if it gets fixed  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: hazed- on April 09, 2001, 10:21:00 AM

yeah and while your at it give LW GM1  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)


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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: straffo on April 09, 2001, 10:38:00 AM

 

Quote

Originally posted by niklas:
M. Williams published some excellent performance charts for the typhoon:
 http://users.supernet.com/lecc/typhoon.html (http://users.supernet.com/lecc/typhoon.html)

Cannot access this page ...

I'm about to start a Don't TOUCH mt tiffi  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) march ...

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: Sable on April 09, 2001, 11:55:00 AM

According to the RAF pilot's notes for the Typhoon, pilots were supposed to subtract 24mph from the IAS, when the speedo was indicating between 360 and 400mph, to get calculated airspeed(CAS).  So Pyro seems to have done a good job of modeling the terribly inaccurate speedo on the Typhoon  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).

Sable
352nd FG

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: funked on April 09, 2001, 12:46:00 PM

If you look at the serial and nose art on the AH Typhoon IB I believe it is a very late one.  So it probably does have the Sabre IIA which could explain the performance.

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: Sturm on April 09, 2001, 02:45:00 PM

I like the Tiffie, and I think it should stay the way it is, well the roll rate is a little to good, but besides that it is a nice plane.  Don't see many up in them.  Guess the next thing that will be knocked down is the 202.

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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Campaigning for the rights of the ME-410.

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: niklas on April 09, 2001, 02:59:00 PM

I never said that the AH-typhoon should perform like the afdu-typhoon with +7-boost. Of course we have a late-war typhoon, with +9 boost AND a 4-bladed propeller. BUT, are (only) ~250HP more near ground (+9boost compared to +7 boost) and a 4-bladed propeller (compared to a 3-bladed one) enough to justify a difference of 35mph for such a huge fighter?? (340mph compared to 375mph). I´d say no.

BTW, i think a Tiffie with a sabreII engine and the same performance like in this afdu-test would be a nice ´42-´43 mid-war completion for the RAF. The graphic already exists, pyro only needs to adjust some numbers.

niklas

Title: Let´s talk about the Typhoon
Post by: funked on April 09, 2001, 03:34:00 PM

Check out the "Military Power" curves for the AH Typhoon.  I believe the boost in AH is +7 at this setting.  And they seem pretty close to the uncorrected values for tests at +7 in MW's data.  It does seem suspicious, doesn't it.    (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/charts/typhoonspeed.gif)

 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/charts/typhoonclimb.gif)

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-09-2001).]