Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: PaintSniper on April 13, 2010, 05:00:03 PM
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This German designed aircraft was hardly used at all with only 16 prototype and 22 preproduction aircraft were known to have flown. I just thought that maybe some prototype aircraft in Aces High would be an interesting concept. Of course the perk points required for said aircraft would need to be astronomical at best. Something close to 500 perk points per plane or something. Please add your own opinions as you wish.
Here are a few characteristics reguarding the Dornier Do 335 A-0 model.
General characteristics
Crew: 1, pilot
Length: 45 ft 5 in (13.85 m)
Wingspan: 45 ft 1 in (13.8 m)
Height: 15 ft (4.55 m)
Wing area: 592 ft² (55 m²)
Empty weight: 11,484 lb (5,210 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 19,500 lb (8,590 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Daimler-Benz DB 603A 12-cylinder inverted engines, 1,287 kW, 1,726 hp (1,750 PS) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 474 mph (765 km/h)
Combat radius: 721 mi (1,160 km (half load))
Service ceiling: 37,400 ft (11,400 m)
Armament
1 × 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 103 cannon (as forward engine-mounted Motorkanone)
2 × 20 mm MG 151 cannons
Up to 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) bombload
(http://www.rlm.at/profil/11/do335_v3.jpg)
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I like the idea, but perk it like the 262 maybe? or a little less
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Never saw combat
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Never saw combat
I understand that, but I'm saying that prototype aircraft could be fun to use so long as the perk count is high enough to limit it's use.
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Never saw combat
If we acknowledge that it flew over Germany during WWII then we should be able to accept the fact that it flew in a war zone Now whether there was an actual organized squadron is immaterial and perhaps not related to having been flown in a combat zone in harms way in combat Can we be certain that anyone shot down by this aircraft lived to tell about it Not sure with that much fire power that many would survive Just imagine a 30 mm shell going off in your face and you get the picture See the picture off the iron maiden album I am pretty sure that is what the pilot of that plane looks like now So you ask him did you fly in squadron strength I mean look at that guy looks like a zombie Just design it and perk it No need to get all technical about it also consider the B2 bomber like how many did we build less than the 335 i think and it could be flown in here invisibly
Infidelz - punctuation -- perk it
For Official Use Only
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It fails one of the main criteria...it never saw operational service and only 22 pre-production models were made.
The only "official" account of any Allied pilot ever encountering came from French ace Pierre Clostermann, when he claims he and his flight of Tempests encountered a Do 335 flying at tree top height that was easily able to escape the Tempests.
ack-ack
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Hmmmmm, maybe a con aircraft we can used after?
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The SEARCH option is your friend.
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prototype
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PaintSniper, very well made post ( :aok), but it doesn't meet the requirement of seeing combat.
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I wonder how the stalls would be with two engines set up like that?
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Usually cooling for the rear engine is a bigger factor for that type of setup.
A couple of years back, they were discussing converting the Cessna 337 "Mixmaster" to
turbo-props to help solve that problem.
(http://www.air-and-space.com/Conroy%20Turbo%20Mods/19740612%20Stolifter%20a%20m.jpg)
They removed the rear engine and replaced the forward one with a turboprop
The original design's below.
(http://www.xairforces.com/images/country/botswana/cessna-337_bdf_001.jpg)
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Perk it high, maybe even limit it to certain fields like the Me-163 but this ride should be in the menu.
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Perk it high, maybe even limit it to certain fields like the Me-163 but this ride should be in the menu.
No it shouldn't. It never saw operational service or advanced beyond the pre-production stage. Those two things alone disqualify it from being considered.
ack-ack
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Never saw combat
Actually it did see combat but not in squadron strength. Multiple accounts from both Russian and US pilots of engaging a few of the preproduction birds in the last months of the War. Since it was the only "push/pull" configuration no other possibility then the DO-335
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Actually it did see combat but not in squadron strength. Multiple accounts from both Russian and US pilots of engaging a few of the preproduction birds in the last months of the War. Since it was the only "push/pull" configuration no other possibility then the DO-335
I wanna believe you but is there any proof?
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Actually it did see combat but not in squadron strength. Multiple accounts from both Russian and US pilots of engaging a few of the preproduction birds in the last months of the War. Since it was the only "push/pull" configuration no other possibility then the DO-335
The only reported encounter between the Do 335 and any Allied fighter came from French ace Pierre Clostermann. In his book, "The Big Show", he mentions that he and his flight of Tempests encounted a Do 335 flying at low altitude and then the Tempest tried to intercept, the Do 335 reversed course and left the Tempests in the dust as they weren't able to get close enough to fire at it. This was in April of 1945, about 2-3 weeks before Germany's unconditional surrender. It's not stated whether the Do 335 was one of the planes from Erprobungskommando 335 that was formed to evaluate the Do 335 or the single Do 335 that was provided to III/KG2.
In any event, when the US army overran the Oberpfaffenhofen factory in late April 1945, only 11 single seat fighter versions were completed and 2 trainers with a further 15 in the final stages.
If there are any records of Soviet pilots encountering the Do 335, they haven't been made public.
ack-ack
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The only reported encounter between the Do 335 and any Allied fighter came from French ace Pierre Clostermann. In his book, "The Big Show", he mentions that he and his flight of Tempests encounted a Do 335 flying at low altitude and then the Tempest tried to intercept, the Do 335 reversed course and left the Tempests in the dust as they weren't able to get close enough to fire at it. This was in April of 1945, about 2-3 weeks before Germany's unconditional surrender. It's not stated whether the Do 335 was one of the planes from Erprobungskommando 335 that was formed to evaluate the Do 335 or the single Do 335 that was provided to III/KG2.
In any event, when the US army overran the Oberpfaffenhofen factory in late April 1945, only 11 single seat fighter versions were completed and 2 trainers with a further 15 in the final stages.
If there are any records of Soviet pilots encountering the Do 335, they haven't been made public.
ack-ack
I still want to know how you no all this stuff? lol
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I still want to know how you no all this stuff? lol
I have a copy of The Big Show and this book, "Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters, 1939-45" and a little research. Just ordered this DVD a couple of weeks ago too but it hasn't arrived yet, "Dornier Do-335: The Luftwaffe's Last & Best Propeller Driven Fighter DVD". Interested in seeing the test flight footage from Erprobungskommando 335's evaulation flights.
ack-ack
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If they bring that big overrated hunk of junk into the game, they would have to bring in all the US goody's thats just barely missed the war like the P-51k, F7F, F8F, F4U-5(maybe not this one) the P-80 etc, with an F7F and F8F why would you want to fly anything else? :cool:
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The P-51K saw combat service in WW2, as it was essentially the same as a D but built in Dallas and had a different propellor. The only reason why it had a different propellor was that Hamilton couldn't keep up with the demand so it was decided to use the Aeroproducts 4 bladed propellor. Though, I'm sure you meant to reference the P-51H and just made a typo.
ack-ack
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The P-51K saw combat service in WW2, as it was essentially the same as a D but built in Dallas and had a different propellor. The only reason why it had a different propellor was that Hamilton couldn't keep up with the demand so it was decided to use the Aeroproducts 4 bladed propellor. Though, I'm sure you meant to reference the P-51H and just made a typo.
ack-ack
Oops Duh, thanks for the Catch Ack, indeed I meant H.
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If they bring that big overrated hunk of junk into the game, they would have to bring in all the US goody's thats just barely missed the war like the P-51k, F7F, F8F, F4U-5(maybe not this one) the P-80 etc, with an F7F and F8F why would you want to fly anything else? :cool:
Because they all can't even touch the the uniqueness and thus theappeal of the Do335. Also, I'd rethink the part of "big overrated hunk of junk".
Leaving Tempests in the dust is a feat that i'd not call overrated at all, especially for the very first Mark of a new plane design.
And the term "barely missed the war" does not apply to the Do335 either. Unlike the F7F and F8F, the Do335 was flown in a war zone. The question is, was it combat or not?
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Because they all can't even touch the the uniqueness and thus theappeal of the Do335. Also, I'd rethink the part of "big overrated hunk of junk".
Leaving Tempests in the dust is a feat that i'd not call overrated at all, especially for the very first Mark of a new plane design.
And the term "barely missed the war" does not apply to the Do335 either. Unlike the F7F and F8F, the Do335 was flown in a war zone. The question is, was it combat or not?
Bahhh.... bring the P-63 with 1820 hp wet wep. It was squadron strength and it did fire it's guns in anger. :aok
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Do335 may of been potentially a great piston fighter if the Germans had gotten their thumbs out and actually put some priority on getting it out, however it is something that doesn't meet the requirements for being added to AH, particularly when so many important WWII aircraft, and even AFVs, are not yet represented.
The Do335 was also the ugliest aircraft of WWII, in my opinion. It took work, but the Germans managed to outdo the French in Ugly.
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The Do335 was also the ugliest aircraft of WWII,
Au contraire - it's a pure beauty if you stand in front of it.
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Going to have to agree to disagree on that, Lusche. I have never seen a shot of a Do335 from any angle that I didn't think was a study in aeronautical hideousness.
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Munich 1986:
(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/7131/do335mnchenkleinti2.jpg)
I was struck just by the looks of that machine.Was absolutely fascinated by it from that day on. :rock
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Because they all can't even touch the the uniqueness and thus theappeal of the Do335. Also, I'd rethink the part of "big overrated hunk of junk".
Leaving Tempests in the dust is a feat that i'd not call overrated at all, especially for the very first Mark of a new plane design.
And the term "barely missed the war" does not apply to the Do335 either. Unlike the F7F and F8F, the Do335 was flown in a war zone. The question is, was it combat or not?
No, other than that one report of the Tempest encountering a low flying Do 335, there are no other reports of Allied planes (both Western and Soviet) encountering one in the sky.
ack-ack
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Do335 may of been potentially a great piston fighter if the Germans had gotten their thumbs out and actually put some priority on getting it out,
When Hitler finally ordered maximum priority for the Do 335 sometime in 1944, ordered the shut down of other aircraft development programs and to cancel the He 219 and to use the Heinkel production facilities for the Do 335. Heinkel dragged his feet and ultimately ignored this order. So in this case, part of the fault lies with Heinkel.
ack-ack
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(http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/do335-112.jpg)
The last surviving example, Do 335A-0 VG+PH, seen after restoration by Dornier.
ack-ack
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No, other than that one report of the Tempest encountering a low flying Do 335, there are no other reports of Allied planes (both Western and Soviet) encountering one in the sky.
There's also an account where a Do335 was seen by the P-51s of the 325th FG of the 15th AF over southern Germany.
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It is funny how some German aircraft fans will say that the preproduction Do335 warrants being added as Allied fighters got within sight of it a couple of times, yet the full production, in service, actually shot at Germans and was shot at Meteor Mk III isn't because it neither shot down a German aircraft nor was shot down by one.
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It is funny how some German aircraft fans will say that the preproduction Do335 warrants being added as Allied fighters got within sight of it a couple of times, yet the full production, in service, actually shot at Germans and was shot at Meteor Mk III isn't because it neither shot down a German aircraft nor was shot down by one.
Are that really one and the same people?
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There are roughly 8-10 reports from various sources. A couple of the D0-335's were used in ground attack roles as part of the evaluation and I've seen the reports for those flights on the web multiple places. Also one account from same test pilot of being attacked by a pair of "P-39's" during a test flight. I've also seen to soviet accounts translated to English. There is also a picture of a D0-335 fitted out with ords that goes with the test flight. Again the plane did not see organized combat and was not ever operationally deployed that I know of but nothing flew for long in the last 4-5 months of the war without running into allied iron somewhere. Reason it was never deployed was the factory tooling was destroyed just before production was to start and politics delayed any choice of new production facility.
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It is funny how some German aircraft fans will say that the preproduction Do335 warrants being added as Allied fighters got within sight of it a couple of times, yet the full production, in service, actually shot at Germans and was shot at Meteor Mk III isn't because it neither shot down a German aircraft nor was shot down by one.
If we are honest, both planes are not that far away from each other in terms of actual deployment, or, to be more precise, the results of the deployment. Both planes cannot claim a scalp of another aircraft, altough both planes did fly in a warzone. Now that the Meteor was fired upon (by AA?), and the 335 not (maybe engaging fighters could not get into gun range?) is that such a radical, black or white difference? I think it's rahter different shades of grey. It's also funny that both planes were hampered by political decisions - the meteor for not being used more agressively, the Do-335 not being pushed aggressively enough into full scale deployment.
That being said, the Meteor should be added first in any case, but I would not basically rule out a 335. Yes, it's extremely borderline, but, in dubio pro reo.
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Meteor was in full production, in full squadron strength and firing its guns in anger at German positions.
Do335 was a preproduction prototype on trial flights.
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Meteor was in full production, in full squadron strength and firing its guns in anger at German positions.
Do335 was a preproduction prototype on trial flights.
I have to disagree on the prototype part. It had a limited procuction run, but production none the less. It was not a one-off.
And, if a trial flight is getting intercepted in anger, does that not qualify for combat?
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I have to disagree on the prototype part. It had a limited procuction run, but production none the less. It was not a one-off.
And, if a trial flight is getting intercepted in anger, does that not qualify for combat?
With that logic, since all of Germany was a combat zone, then any a/c the Germans had flying should be in the game.
The Do 335s produced were versuchs and preproduction a/c.
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I have to disagree on the prototype part. It had a limited procuction run, but production none the less. It was not a one-off.
And, if a trial flight is getting intercepted in anger, does that not qualify for combat?
Because it was a trial flight. True serial production didn't commence, no 335s in any form of regular duty.
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Again here we are in a bit of a grey zone. The D0-335 is totally inappropriate for any scenario and certainly not correct historically. However if we view this as a WW2 era combat simulator vs a reenactment then it really becomes a question of having the raw data to accurately model the plane and having the desire to do so. I certainly wouldn't put it in front of numerous planes that have either strong historical (scenario) use like the Ki-43, LaGG-3, D4Y (Judy), Tu-2 {to name a few of many} or late war planes like the G.55/A-26/P-63 that were true production models (and yes the P-63 was flying in full squadron strength over Poland/Germany from late 44 onward....regardless of the lack of western documentation.
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With that logic, since all of Germany was a combat zone, then any a/c the Germans had flying should be in the game.
The Do 335s produced were versuchs and preproduction a/c.
Since the entire pacific was a combat zone.... well ... you know. :D
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With that logic, since all of Germany was a combat zone, then any a/c the Germans had flying should be in the game.
<SNIP>
This was my point exactly anything in livery was in a combat zone
Infidelz
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Being in a combat zone is not the same as being in combat.
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Being in a combat zone is not the same as being in combat.
Would you consider Clostermann's report as combat or not? If not, why?
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Would you consider Clostermann's report as combat or not? If not, why?
If shooting down V-1s that may very well explode and kill you doesn't count as combat or setting up to tangle with some Fw190s before being chased off by some Spitfires who thought your Meteors were Me262s doesn't count as combat, running away from some aircraft without ever getting remotely close to be shot at certainly doesn't count as combat either. The consensus on this board seems to be that the first two are not combat.
My personal take on it is that it was not combat as there was no danger of anybody firing weapons in that encounter, if it actually happened, due to the Do335's massive speed advantage over the Tempest.
Even if it was combat, you still don't have a production aircraft in service at full squadron service, unlike every aircraft in AH and even things like the Meteor and He162.
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one question
did the Dornier 335 in question have ammo?
if he was un armed then it cannot have been a combat situation
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I'm not sure the guys in the photo-recon birds would agree with your definition :D
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Would you consider Clostermann's report as combat or not? If not, why?
As I undersand it, one must sometimes take Clostermann's reports with a grain of salt in general.
wrongway
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I'm not sure the guys in the photo-recon birds would agree with your definition :D
Guys in photo-recon birds actually got shot at, and got shot down at times, something the Do335 never was.
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If shooting down V-1s that may very well explode and kill you doesn't count as combat or setting up to tangle with some Fw190s before being chased off by some Spitfires who thought your Meteors were Me262s doesn't count as combat, running away from some aircraft without ever getting remotely close to be shot at certainly doesn't count as combat either. The consensus on this board seems to be that the first two are not combat.
My personal take on it is that it was not combat as there was no danger of anybody firing weapons in that encounter, if it actually happened, due to the Do335's massive speed advantage over the Tempest.
Even if it was combat, you still don't have a production aircraft in service at full squadron service, unlike every aircraft in AH and even things like the Meteor and He162.
Meteor, - in production, in combat gear,in squadron strength, in the war-zone, and in some action, failing the enemy to show up properly to draw blood.
The Dornier, - in pre-production, in none combat gear, not in squadron strength, unwillingly in the war-zone, and being seen once, turned the tail.
No contest.
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I realise that German accounts of combat in this plane dont egsist...,BUT Allied accounts do.
I recall a book about Typhoon pilots, in which said pilot attempted to "catch" a plane running away on the deck, he described the plane as having "one propeler in front, and one in the rear" and while this doesnt qualify as combat in most peoples eyes, the plane wasnt there running initial flight tests in a combat area obviously, (unless that was one stupid test pilot)...
Unfortunatly I cant remember the name of the dang book to save my life.
Through interference from other German manufactur's, and bombing of the 1st production line, the 335's production was kept low... It fits in somwhere bettween me-163 and the Natter (rocket propelld/verticaly launched interceptor) in that it was undergoing trials by fire..., but didnt serve in "squadron" service like the 163 did, (somthing I find hard to believe, in that I deffinatly doubt 163's where opperated in anything like squadron service when you get down to it.)
The point is that by the end of the war, production and implimentation of a new design was highly unlikly, so the D-335 started with its foot in the bucket, and was left by the wayside while other weapons where givin priority.
I would personaly like to see it introduced, and believe it should be a viable plane in the game...., for the simple fact that it WAS flown in combat (Yes, even hauling tail away from a Typhoon counts as combat in my book, if you dont think so try it sometime), and the Allies at-least had a shot at it in combat conditions (unlike the BearCat, Meteor) :aok
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Dangit....NO...
After thinking for about 5 minutes I realise its just not enough..., lol
Its a pipe dream, and there are other aircraft more deserving and with real combat records.
I've changed my mind, I vote no. :frown:
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When did we move the Wishlist in here?