Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: brady on October 28, 2001, 05:30:00 PM
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Bellow is a list of some types of sea planes that could be competive in the MA.
PB2Y Coronado
Bomb's 8,000 internal and 4,000 external!
torpedo capable.
Eight 50cal MG's
223MPH
H8K "Emily"
4,410lb's of Bomb's
torpedo capable
five 20mm and three 7.7mm mg's
282MPH
N1K1 Kyofo "Rex"
Two 33kg bomb's
Two 20mm, Two 7.7mm mg's
304 MPH
A6M2-N Zero "Rufe"
Two 60kg bombs
Two 20mm and two 7.7mm mg's
270MPH
SC-1 Sehawk
Two 250lb and two 100lb bomb's
Two 50 cal mg's
313 mph
Now just 2 of these would make a real nice start in the seaplane department. The Coronado as a buff and the N1K1 as a ftr. they could be used from ports and V bases near a lake or the water, or even airfield's near the water. heck if the added the transport varient of the JU 52 float plane or the transport varent of the coronado it's self you could do a whole capture from one of thse bases. A seaplane tender could be added aas a seperat TF. this would all be a little more feasable on a large map type that Pyro mentioned in the past.
Coronado:
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nHwAAAKoIIWorGkqhQsbhzNGop3phCx53txU9i8iaxw*MpIo8xf70yXAboN6HmFni)
N1K1
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nHwAAAMEIY2sExaS6x7iUgUDWej8fylxJNsbzkZTwXmJ3uzXYgy1kwlqBaHF!5uNh)
Besides if they add the N1K1 mabby people would stop calling the N1K2-J a NIKI :)
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My vote is definately for Emily.
H8K2 'Emily'
(http://strategyplanet.com/commandos/images/h8k2_3.gif)
Armed with 5 20mm Type 99 Model Is and 3 7.7mm Type 92 machine guns as defensive fire and capable of carrying 4,410lbs of bombs or 2 of the nasty Japanese torpedoes.
It has an intial climb rate of 1,800ft per minute (for a 4 engined bomber type that is REALLY good),a top speed of 290mph and a flight endurance of 24 hours.
It was heavily built with self sealing fuel tanks, engine armor and armored crew positions.
It was powered by 4 1,850hp Mitsubishi MK4Q Kasei 22 fourteen-cylinder air-cooled radial engines.
The best flying boat of the war by a good margin.
(http://strategyplanet.com/commandos/images/h8k2_6.jpg)
(http://strategyplanet.com/commandos/images/h8k2_3.jpg)
EDIT: I yanked an image.
[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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You missed the Sunderland, a behemoth used for anti-sub/anti-ship warfare, and if the goony can supply GV's, then there's a myriad of smaller search/rescue float planes which would be suitable for resupplying PT and maybe even picking up chutes..
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Sunderland was the most heavily armed of all WW2 Flying Boats,my vote goes to this mighty craft (not just so i can show my Grandpa some screenshots of his old ride :) )
Steely
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Steely07,
How so. All the data that I have seen says that it was poorly armed.
The most heavily gunned flying boat was the H8K2 "Emily" and brady's info on the PB2Y Coronado puts it at the highest payload of any WWII flying boat that I am aware of.
The Sunderland would be dead meat in AH. 7 .303s in turrets, 4 fixed .303s in the wings and 2 .50s in waist positions isn't that well armed.
Its payload of 4,960lbs is only slightly larger than the H8K2's and its performance isn't even close. The Sunderland's 212mph against the H8K2's 282mph and the Sunderland's initial climb rate of 790 feet per minute against the H8K2's 1,800 feet per minute.
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What about the Dornier errm was it Do24T?
SKurj
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Well said Karnak.
Their are tons of different floatplanes that I did not include in the above list, some of which are amongst my favorite's of this type: He 115, Cant Z. 506, PBY, AR 196, and the Sunderland. They were not mentioned because they well how to say this nicely....They have a p!ss poor performance on a number of leavels. those mentioned could Survive in the MA,at least long enough to compeat. I personaly would rather see the Emily, but I think the Cornado Would be a better Buff type, it could also be used for troop delevery, and resupply sorties simply by doing a varient, this is true for the Emily as well.
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Karnak,i will have to call My Grandpa,i think that is what he told me,of course he might not have been talking about the Japanese AC,possibly just the Allied,would i be right in saying it was the most heavily armed Allied flying boat? :)
He has some great pictures btw (gramps) he made friends with the squadron photographer and was able to get some fantastic action shots,my fave is taken at about 300ft alt directly above a German U-Boat that is lying on the surface,The Sunderland is strafing it and there are gouts of water jumping up all around it :).
Btw Karnak or anyone who has a good avation library,i would love to get any info on Number 10 squad RAAF during ww2,they flew Sunderlands for coastal command,Grandpa's name is Ernest Binns :)
Thanks
Steely
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S!
Sunderlands did excellent work against U-boats. But whenever they met up with Ju88G's on patrol, they were in trouble.
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S!
Most of the time Sundelands carried depth charges. They did their killing of subs with these. Usually after they caught them on the surface. Many U-boats choose to stand and fight rather than dive and get blasted. Some of the later model U-boats had 20mm AA on the deck. There were some epic battles between U-boats and Sunderlands.
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Hmmmm :)
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I'd still like a Sunderland or Catalina! :)
I mentioned in another thread where float planes could have a use. When the subs arrive in AH then float planes could have a use. How? Well make the float/recon planes the only aircraft that can deploy bhoys or flares or a simple marker on the map to show the location of the enemy fleet or submarines (this could display for up to an hour at the last know location of the enemy ships). Friendly subs could then plot an intercept course to the enemy fleet, otherwise they'd be pretty useless due to their very low speed. Therefore float/recon planes could have a use! :)
Regards
Nexx
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I've said it before, I'll say it again:
Bring the Spruce Moose to AH!
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Talk about competitive you can not leave out the Blohm und Voss Bv 222 Wiking.
(http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW3/bv222-005.jpg)
Those turrets are with a 20mm :)
Besides those three it has five 13mm's.
Downside is that it's a transport aircraft and low numbers built.
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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
My AH homepage (http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens)
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/209.gif)
[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: LLv34_Snefens ]
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I missed this thread when I posted about the PBM-5.... so here: http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002758 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002758)
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I want that plane from the old TV show The Golden Monkey.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel:
I want that plane from the old TV show The Golden Monkey.
The Grumman G21-A 'Goose' is a cool plane, but would be totally useless in the arena.
[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: stahler ]
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Man I miss that show :)
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Snef if we added that people would be getting kills from 5k. I mean well its just um alittle um BiG maybe?
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Big jesus thats an understatement some of those beasts would put the b17 or even b19 or even b51 to shame turrets in the wings holy crap what next turrets in the ammm? rudder or landing gear i didnt know planes that big existed during WW2 anyway yes please bring them to aces high we could also have harpoons in them to kill wales or sharks
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!
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I say...
a Sunderland, a Catalina, an Emily AND (insert German ride here)!
just so nobody would raise a fit about who gets what. I think in all actuality, there should be at least one from each side, Axis and Allied.
Call me a goofball, but even with better options... I have a soft spot for the Catalina
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I say the addition of a flying boat would be make a nice mantle piece that would stay in the hanger. In essence, a waste of HTC's time. Now a B24, or a Beafighter (Austarian model), or even a ME410, now that would be more bang for your buck.
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Look at the load that the Coranado can carry, that is a usefull platform.
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regarding to the sunderland: definately donīt think it would be dead meat in the arena. i know of a incident where one sunderland got involved in a battle with six (!) ju88 near the coast of norway. outcome was, the sunderland downed one ju88, damaged another one, and made the four others flee - iīll post a referer asap (i know this story is haunting my book shelf somewhere).
anyways, i still think the addition of flying boats wouldnīt be that big. theyīre slow, huuuge (i.e. easy to spot, easy to hit) and also they need a scenery where they would face extensive sub and ground traffic, i.e. as long as there are no subs and only cv or pt groups, i donīt see a point in flying those winged barns. prove me wrong plz :))
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I would have to agree with Ammo - while the big boats and float planes would be a "Novelty" and nice to have - they would quickly become hangar queens. You would have a few die hards fly them but on the average most of the flock are going to grab planes with better performance. The only two exceptions to this might be the Emily & PBY, PBM or Corornado. They could be used for both bombing, supply or troop transport.
IMO HTC would do better to work on the big players missing from the planes set such as the Axis Carrier attack planes, land based dive bombers such as the Stuka & heavy bombers such as the HE177 for the Axis side players.
P.S. By the way Karnac - the Emily did not carry the big 24" Long Lance Topedoes - only the CA's, DD's & SS's did. All aircraft carriered the 21" torps.
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ok... that is something I'll never understand. Everyone is always begging HTC for a different Letter version of the same damn plane. OOOOh I want a such and such E. Nooo I want such and such E.1! Is it just me that wants some entirely new aircraft that haven't been done to death in another sim? I think the fact that someof these birds are amphibious, thus giving them different places to take off and land from is something galctically cooler than the same aircraft with the only difference being that it had a marginally better engine giving it .002 MPH faster than the other previous versions or having the ability to carry drop tanks, or 2 rockets more. I know that it's a much bigger undertaking to model a completely new aircraft, especially on that can take off and land on water or land but it CAN be done. (Explain the LVTs) They would also become exponentially more important if we enabled a pilot rescue system. I give you the following scenario: A PBY takes off from a land base on a recon mission. That Bish PBY flies around and spots the carrier group and then alerts the other Bishes. They up a mission to sink it from their own carrier group. While the PBY is circling overhead he sees a sub headed right for the Bish CV. Swoops down and after a short while, does away with the sub. The Bishes sink the CV group and a few guys who brought home some kills had to bail and are in the water. The PBY flies down to them, picks them up and flies them back to their CV. Since he is within X distance of the CV, he can .ef and gets a "you have landed successfully" He's happy with his new perkies and goes about his business.
Sorry for the semi rant.... I just feel the need to defend potential future existence of flying boats in AH
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NP at all, you are entitled a rant. However that doesnt eman it will be heeded:)
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Obviously the Coranado and Emily would be usefull because of thier loads and defensive firpower, the other Fighter type aircraft, would be usfull if these planes were enabled from Ports, or V bases near the water, and or Seaplane tenders, providing special T/O poimts for these planes would help to make theam more atractive to use, Port under attack ,CV no whear near by..grab a REX and defend the empire:)
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Originally posted by Critter
ok... that is something I'll never understand. Everyone is always begging HTC for a different Letter version of the same damn plane. OOOOh I want a such and such E. Nooo I want such and such E.1! Is it just me that wants some entirely new aircraft that haven't been done to death in another sim?
I agree totally if it makes you feel any better. I'd rather see 2 completely new aircraft than 6 "new" versions of what we have.
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oh....my vote goes to the Emily. It really would be extra neato.
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:D Sea plane could be something new for AH. I am all for it. "Jap" need a big bomber anyways!!! Plus recon birds could make things Fun! I am all for it...:D H8K "Emily" all the way!!!
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Originally posted by brady
Obviously the Coranado and Emily would be usefull because of thier loads and defensive firpower,
Yes true, but in that case a B-24 would be more effective and much more representative of its use in WW2. The flying boat would just be different (no-one has modeled one yet IIRC). If it is as I think what you would like, to better represent the other countries, it would be much easier to fill that hole with fighters from Japan, not a flying boat. I would love to see an A6M2 (or 3), A raiden, a frank, a val, a rufe, a kate than an Emily. Would also like to see a wildcat, P-40, dauntless...etc to complement a PAC The setup.
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don't get me wrong.. I love the b24... but it would just be ANOTHER US land based bomber. That does the same exact thing as the b17 with the exception of carrying 2k more of bombs.... that's it
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*PUNT*
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Because PBM-5M looks kewl and the M in the 5M is for missles! :)
(http://www.usni.org/hrp/images/thumbnails/WWII_Color/PBM-5Marinerrefulesbrowser.GIF)
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I say Coronado.
But while your at it make us an Ar 196 and strap some floats to the N1K2 fix it up a little and 'poop' you have a Kyofu(N1K).
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!
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Kingfisher or Duck!
&
PBY or Sunderland.
eskimo
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steely07 i think i have a link with a little information for you:
http://www.defence.gov.au/raaf/mpg/10sqdn.htm
another is:
http://www.defence.gov.au/raaf/edn/
still another:
http://users.chariot.net.au/~theburfs/maritime.html#10sqn
hope these help you out
......Wadke.........
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The thing is... any floatplane needs a purpose. Else its just another medium bomber. (and target). I suggest that they be integrated into something to do with fleets. ie: points for spotting the enemy fleet?
perhaps they can spot the fleet then land (on the sea) and report back the position.
or, as long as they are within a sector of the fleet the it shows on the radar. Now thats an idea that makes them useful. They spot it, send the radio message and as long as they orbit its on the dar and available for attack..
any other ideas for a mission?
deliver supplies to ports maybe?
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I still like the idea of having float planes and flying boats enabled at ports. In addition, if we someday get task groups centered around cruisers or possibly a battleship, floatplanes could launch off the catapults to act as spotters/recon/SAR.
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Yes those catapult float plane's could cary light bombs as well.
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sunderland and the cat for my choice.
why? because they were the 2 most important floaters of wwII,what other reason do you need..
i would like to see the cat in a reascue version for people who bail but dont want capture..hehe
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bring in the ruskies EKRANOPLAN!:D , with that big momma you can capture like 10 seaside bases in one sortie, one supp run and the whole base is up again roflmao
can somebody post a pic of it?:)
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EKRANOPLAN :eek:
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KM - Caspian Sea Monster (http://www.home-taylor.freeserve.co.uk/content/videos/km4.mpg) :eek:
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This thing cannot fly. It uses an effect near to ground to move fast over the water, but it cannot fly.
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I agree we would have to consider what role we use them for.........
For me any FB that could fulfill the role of Goon, medium bomber and or anti submarine craft would be an interesting addition.
We would really only need one whichever type it would be.
It would spawn at the boat spawn points attached to ports and would have to "dock" to land successfully.
The ability to re supply fleets at sea could add many interesting game play additions including the possibility of attrition at sea such as depletion of ship borne guns and fuel and repletion by supply.
Of course then subs would have to be added at the same time as any anti sub AC...........
Onto subs I s'pose the U Boat is the basic craft. (PAC orientated folk may disagree) I would make it so that it could only stay submerged when manned by a captain. So if some one set it some way points and was not at the helm it would surface for all to see.......... when the captain is at the helm the way points switch off.
Further when making an attack it would have to be at periscope (f1) depth so a small wake becomes visible above it.
When fully submerged you have sonar (f6) and the map to steer by.
When surfaced the tower takes on a gunner position just as the deck gun does.
It could only come in shore when fully afloat. (Submerging in the shallows = death)
Each port has 2 maybe three subs with a limited torpedo and fuel set which can be replenished by a supply carrying flying boat.
Tilt
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That Ekranoplan was just offtopic... ;)
Heres few ideas what flying boat could do at game
1. long range reconnaissance
2. *U-Boat/PT/ship support*
3. bomber
4. torpedo bomber
5. *surface minelayer*
6. *chute/pilot rescue*
7. troop plane
H8K2-L is transport version of H8K and could carry 29 passengers or 64 troops :)
Float seaplane (launched from cruiser/destroyer/carrier)
1. reconnaissance
2. fighter/bomber
3. target/fire spotting
4. *chute/pilot rescue*
Some floatplanes got quite good armament ;)
N1K Kyofu (Mighty Wind)
-two 7.7 mm Type 97 mgs
-two wing-mounted 20 mm Type 99 Model 1 cannon.
-two 30 kg bombs
Arado Ar 196
-twin MG FF 20mm cannon in wings
-MG 17 7.92mm
-twin MG 15 at back
-two 110lb (50kg) bombs
A6M2-N Rufe
-two 20mm cannons
-two 7.7mm mgs
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add to that the ability for 25 mile local dar working(even if HQ down) when PBY is aloft. since it was a spotter/recon plane.
whels
Originally posted by Dr Zhivago
That Ekranoplan was just offtopic... ;)
Heres few ideas what flying boat could do at game
1. long range reconnaissance
2. *U-Boat/PT/ship support*
3. bomber
4. torpedo bomber
5. *surface minelayer*
6. *chute/pilot rescue*
7. troop plane
H8K2-L is transport version of H8K and could carry 29 passengers or 64 troops :)
Float seaplane (launched from cruiser/destroyer/carrier)
1. reconnaissance
2. fighter/bomber
3. target/fire spotting
4. *chute/pilot rescue*
Some floatplanes got quite good armament ;)
N1K Kyofu (Mighty Wind)
-two 7.7 mm Type 97 mgs
-two wing-mounted 20 mm Type 99 Model 1 cannon.
-two 30 kg bombs
Arado Ar 196
-twin MG FF 20mm cannon in wings
-MG 17 7.92mm
-twin MG 15 at back
-two 110lb (50kg) bombs
A6M2-N Rufe
-two 20mm cannons
-two 7.7mm mgs
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Just to reiterate what Tilt said... I see good suggestions for the role of float plane, but some of them require additions to the gaming concept, so I think we should keep that separate from the reasons why we should add these planes to AH.
My personal feeling is that having a float plane like the Emily or the Catalina as another goon or bomber/torpedo plane gives more strategic values to ports or vehicle hangers near the shore. This alone is a good enough reason for their addition I think.
Things like reconnaissance, pilot rescue, anti-submarine warfare, and the like can be added to the plans when HTC decides to add these features to the game. (I've seen good suggestions like for reconnaissance, wipe off all enemy facilities and airbases off the map and make them appear only after they have been photographed and the like...)
Even the addition of a float plane now, HTC needs to address certain issues. For example, why does the PT boat explode when hitting the shore at a very low speed? This would apply to the float plane I think. i would not want my plane exploding just because it bumped the dock. (while a CV steaming at full speed will drag your plane without killing you...)
HTC will also need to consider how we are going to turn these planes around after refueling. (well, this is not a hard task I guess, just like handling a GV...)
HTC will need to add boueys to mark the "runway" on the water and to identify "re-arm pads".
Of course, please consider making these "runways" unusable when there is a storm. :)
Ah what else... catapult launched seaplanes... addition of another type of task group without the CV will be interesting... perhaps more mobile than the current TGs...
Can we consider addition of submarines capable of launching planes?... :) Just out of seer curiosity, kinda wanna see the I-400 and the Seiran modeled... hehehehe... Well, that is not the all planes that was launched from a sub... gotta do some research to confirm it though...
Ah well... just my ramblings and two cents on this matter...
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FirstBorg,
are you saying the Wright brothers did not fly that day at Kittyhawk SC, for they did not get out of ground effect as well?
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Wadke,thanks 4 the links,i have those already,but thanks a lot :)
Milo,nice,i think checkmate ")