Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Wutz on October 29, 2001, 12:29:00 PM
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Yeah, why not include the F-86 sabre and Mig 13 or 15 in AH 1.25. No I say bring a roling Planeset like in WB here so we can recreate the whole war(the only thing WB is better att is the Roling Planesett) Fiat Cr 32, 42, Gloster Gladiator, Ki-10, Polikarpov I-5, I-15, I-153, I-16, He-51, and some good old bombers like the TB-3 and Ju-86. ww2 is not just 1942-45 (though u Yanks dident care before then) The Norwegian Airforce shot down Heinkel 111 and Bf109 and 110 in their old Gloster Gladiators in April of 1940 and not too mention the brave poles in their outdated planes, armed only with 2x7,7mm. The early war also poses and intresting perspectiv, even for a yank (ahh the Warhawk)
Though att the end I just have too give a big cheer too HT and their baby AH it is the best flightsim around, and it is brought too u by a company that gives 110% for their customers.
[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Wutz ]
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Probably 95% of AH players absolutely hate the Rolling Plane Set idea. I'd love to see more early war planes in the game (Spit I, Hurricane I, 109E, D520, etc.) but since we will most likely never have an RPS, these planes would see next to no use in the MA. They would be used only in scenarios. Of course, since we have covered just about every important late war plane, that leaves mid and early war, so I'd guess that we will see some early war planes coming in soon.
My best guess is that the next couple of releases will be mostly late war Russian and Japanese super-planes, then we will start seeing the American and Japanese early war planes, then the British and German after that.
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They could & would be used in the CT arena (as its soon to be upgraded, RPS in there at present), they also would see some action in the MA, and also in events, snap shots etc...
I think lots of people would use certin early war planes in the MA, for example...
Ju87's,
P40,s &
early P38's
:D
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Ok, perhaps the roling planeset is a bad idea. I know many (70%) flies their favoritt plane 80% of the time. But it would be cool too find a system, where u was forced too use some early war planes too. Just an idea, so put your minds in too it. :D
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Hi Wutz,
>Ok, perhaps the roling planeset is a bad idea
Could you please elaborate on that? It seems so natural to me that I can't see what people might not like about the RPS concept. Could be because I absolutely loved "Red Baron" with its RPS when it came out ten years ago :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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HoHun,
Many people dislike the rolling planset concept because it dictates their choice of aircraft.
If "Bob" is a gung-ho, American aircraft only, type of guy (or worse (worse from an availability standpoint)yet, a P-51D only guy) wht will he fly and enjoy in 1940? Spits, Hurris or Bf109s? If he is the P-51D only guy, he won't enjoy the sim he is paying for until the mid-1944 time period rolls around, meaning that most of the month he doesn't get his monies worth.
The other kind of guy that dislikes the rolling planeset is the guy who flys all sorts of different aircraft, but does so at his whim. This guy doesn't like the day of the week or month to decide for him what he can and can't fly. If he has a hankering to fly an N1K2-J, then that is what he wants to do. He doesn't want to make do with an A6M2.
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And the worst part about a Rolling Plane Set is the incessant petty whining arguements, about what plane is released when. Introduction dates, In Theater dates, Parity days, and every other ill conceived method to determine what you get when. Every person has a agenda on which plane should be dominant when, and if they don't get their personal idea of "historic". Then the complaints never end.
Personally I am one of those people that hate the RPS. Its one of the primary reasons I left Warbirds.
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Well peoples are different. What I loved abt WarBirds was the RPS and WW2 arena. When I fly my 109 I hate too shoot down 190 or 109. But I guess if it is true that the majority of AH players hate Rolling Plane Sett and the historical feeling. Well, there is darn little we can do abt it :D And as for me, 10 wild horses could not drag my bellybutton back too WB 2.xx. AH is nbr 1, despite the 3 teams, no RPS and the dreadfull historical feling, when I ping a 109 in a 109. :eek:
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Karnak,
You forgot about the guy who likes early war aircraft but can't fly them because people are free to choose P51s, N1Ks and Me262s.
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Steven,
No I didn't, unless you mean the guy who likes early war stuff and thus does not like a RPS. I wasn't taking a position on whether RPS' are good or not. Personally, some days I'd like one and some days I wouldn't. More often than not I want to fly what I want to fly. Somethimes I'd like to do so without getting nailed by a P-51D or La-7 though.
I was explaining to HoHun the reasons that some people don't like RPS'. Verm gave another big reason.
I know that the late war environment makes early war birds very difficult to use.
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CAC Boomerang! Give us an Aussie fighter!
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Karnak,
My apologies if my message came across in a way I did not mean. I knew you weren't stating a specific preference of your own but were instead listing the types of people out there and thus why I misunderstood and thought you left out the type of category I'd fall into. However, I really am starting to believe Aces High won't be going to early war aircraft for a very long, long time if ever and my category is pretty much moot.
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S!
My opinion is that we should add the missing '42, '43 and '44 planes.
Ie.:
Me110G
Ju88G
Me410
Ju-87D and G
Spit IXLF or Spit VIII
Beaufighter
Mosquito bomber
Wellington II
P-40E or Kittyhawk III
P-39N or Q
P-38F or J
P-47D-21 (Razorback with paddleblade prop)
B-25
Yak-3
Yak-9D
Yak-1
Tu-2
Ki-84
A6M2
Ki43
Jill or Val
Brewster Buffalo (Finn model)
After we get all these, then we should think about the Spit I, Me109E etc.
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Wutz,
I, too, have a strong desire to see a "1930s" planeset (and many of your modeling suggestions are in line with my own interests). Having a rolling set doesn't appeal to me, however. Such planesets need a dedicated setting. I'm for dedicated arenas.
It was disheartening to see the WWI and Korean arenas in AW go neglected. Of course, the reasoning used was their lack of popularity (although neglect could have bred it). The WWI arena was discontinued completely when EA aquired AW. The Korean arena continued to suffer neglect.
If there were enough players expressing an interest in a specific era/planeset/setting, I don't see HT or Pyro being as inclined to ignore their interests. The only thing is, what planeset/era/setting do the historical players lobby for (or lobby for first)? Having a fragmented group asking for different planes from different campaigns would only come off as individual desires and not as a community petition.
Early (and pre)war settings:
Spain
Manchuria
Finnish Winter War
Early Pac
BoB
(what have I missed?)
As much as I'd like to see AH work on an SCW planeset and setting, I'm more than willing to support any of the above if enough players express a similar interest. I've confidence that HT and Pyro would take notice and give it some serious consideration.
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At the Con HiTech said that one of their goals in the comming year was to delve into the early war stuff.
Keep the faith up, its comming.
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Bah, and from what source is it that people dislike RPS?
I for one would just love it and so would a lot of people I know in AH.
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The RPS is not a bad idea per se. Stupid RPS are bad ideas. We need a good plane set before even thinking about an RPS. I remember Warbirds days when the 109F had to fight against the Spitfire IX :rolleyes:
BTW, I'm sure a lot of people here would fly Wildcat's, P40's and 109E in the Main Arena even without an RPS. Moreover, we could play much more interesting scenarios. Anyway, I'm sure AH will have enuff early war planes in a year or two :rolleyes:
Just my two € ;)
[ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: gatt ]
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OK pro-RPS people.
Put the following aircraft in order of entry in an RPS based on quarter years. Which are 1st quarter 1944? 2nd? 3rd? 4th?:
A6M5b
Ar234B
Bf109G-10
Bf109K-4
Fw190A-8
Fw190D-9
Ki-61-KAIc
La-7
Me262A
N1K2-J
P-38L
P-47D-30
P-51D
Spitfire MkXIV
Tempest MkV
Yak-9U
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Perhaps we are missing the big picture here. We are not restricted too use the WB rps. AH could with all these smart peoples, find a good system. I will come here with the first draft, and then I play the ball too you. :D
A Rps could focuse on 3 days pr year. 3x8=24day tour (1939-1946). It would not be impossible too find out when the first eksampel of the Me 109 F where put into activ service. We are a good resource and with so many great pilots in AH, that would be a piece of cake. We could also allowe ourself not too get tangled upp in what month it was released, 1940 mai or sept is 1940 no more, and no less. Eks if Me 109 F was firsted used in activ service May/june 1941 and the P40 E in August 1941 (no it is probably not the right date for both, but it is just an exampl) Both would be released in the begining of the 3 days of 1941. That I think we could live with. Ok, its your turn make my suggestion better, or give me your own. Dont bother if it sounds stupid, we are here too help eatchoter (upps, my english is realy bad when I am excited :D ) Not to make fun of... :rolleyes:
And whatever we can agree on, I am confident that the staff at HT is reading this, and is making a note of theese suggestions.
(and how many other games could boost, yes we have the ability too recreate the airwar over poland, or the spanish civil war) I-153 vs Me 109D, or Hurricane I vs Fiat G 50 or Ki-27 Nate vs P40.
Ahhh remeber Dynamix Aces of the Pacific, where U could fly the Ki-27 Nate, it moved like Laurence Bakal (or something like that)
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Give me a 109E and I'll show u a dead late war plane! Either that or they'll run away cause they can't win :)
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I've not had a lot of experience with RPS's. I do know I'd not like it if it was my only choice and I'd definately question the wisodom of paying for entertainment that ended up not being fun by limiting what I could fly.
On the other hand I cannot stand to see people speek for the silent majority. <cough> Urchin. Until you take an official poll of the AH customer base and have facts to back your "majority" and "95%" comments please just speak for yourself.
Westy
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I wouldn't mind trying an RPS system. AH has modelled itself after a period of the war where allied equipment in the skies held an advantage, not just in numbers but in superior equipment. (262, 234 not included)
An earlier period of the war, 43 for example may see more parity in the skies, and more variety in aircraft. As it is these days, the majority of the time you are fighting the RAF or a US aircraft it seems.
SKurj
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Originally posted by wutz:
It would not be impossible too find out when the first eksampel of the Me 109 F where put into activ service.
No, it wouldn't be. But that wasn't my point.
I picked 1944 for a reason. 1943 might work as well.
wutz, I am guessing you are a fan of German aircraft because of your name, maybe you don't have an agenda, but maybe you do. Having the Bf109F enter service at its appropritate time is only a good thing if you have the agenda that many German aircraft fans have.
What about having the Spitfire MkXIV enter on its service entry date? Do you really want to be fighting hordes of Spit 14s in your Bf109G-6s, Fw190A-5s and Fw190A-8s? Or are you going to hedge the Spit 14s entry like they did in WBs? Based on your 3 day per year model, the second day of 1944 we get P-51Ds and on the third day we get Bf109K-4s, Fw190D-9s, Me262s and Tempests.
1944 would look like this:
Day 1: So many Spit 14s that you have trouble finding a non-Spit 14 to fight.
Day 2: P-51D arrives to slightly thin the Spit 14 horde, but lets face it, the Spit 14 is better suited to the MA kind of play.
Day 3: So many 262s that if you fly a prop plane you are just asking to be BnZed relentlessly by aircraft that you cannot touch.
1945 looks the same as day 3 of 1944.
All that said, I would like to see a true rolling plane set done in a CT where captures where possible and front movement happened.
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Pulling from another thread, perhaps there could be seperate arenae for early war, mid-war, and late war?
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Hi Karnak,
Thanks for the explanation so far!
>1944 would look like this:
I've to admit that I don't quite understand what you're aiming at with this example - what's the problem with one side's fighter arm consisting of just a single type for a day?
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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HoHun,
In the MA style of play, its not just one sides.
Knights, Rooks and Bishops would mostly flock to the fighters that I mentioned.
There would be stalwarts who stuck with their favorites of course, but why do you think that the F4U-1C, then N1K2-J and noe Spitfire MkIX are so common? Because they are easiest to use.
The Spit 14 and Me262 would do that in the 1944 period of a RPS in the context of an MA type environment.
Even in the CT you'd have the Yanks all flying Limey aircraft, namely Spit 14s.
I'm sure that the Brits would have loved to replace all of their older Spits with Spit 14s on January 3rd, 1944 when 610 Squadron went active with them, but they couldn't. I'm also sure that the Germans would have liked as many 262s, Fw190D-9s and Bf109K-4s. Both sides kept using Spitfire MkVs, MkIXs and Bf109G-6s and Fw190As respectively, despite the advent of better aircraft.
The other problem with a AvA setup is that players flock to whoever has the best aircraft in a given timeframe.
1940: Bf109E = Players flock to the Germans
1941: Spitfire Vb = Players flock to the Brits
1942: Fw190A-4 = Players flock to the Germans
1943: Spitfire LF.IX = Players flock to the Brits
1944, 1st half: P-51D, Spitfire MkXIV = Players flock to the Allies
1944, 2nd half-1945: Me262 = Players flock to the Germans
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Hi Karnak,
>Knights, Rooks and Bishops would mostly flock to the fighters that I mentioned.
I'd think a historical RPS wouldn't be satisfactory without distinguishing between historical countries, anyhow.
>The other problem with a AvA setup is that players flock to whoever has the best aircraft in a given timeframe.
All I can say is that this effect was frequently claimed for the WB.de server, but when I recorded actual player numbers for each side, they evidently were not influenced by aircraft availability in any way.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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The MA is a fantasy arena and should stay that way.
The CT is the place to try more historical matchups and RPS's, in my opinion. The rolling plane set with perks that has been used in the CT worked nicely.
F.
P.S. Karnak, it would be nice to have players flock to CT for any reason. :)
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well it is good too se that my post have triggerd many strong oppinions :D Btw Karnak, why cant you come upp with your idea for this? Perhaps we could use the perk system in a roling plansett. Eks a 262 is 200 points in 1944, then 100 points in 1945, then 20 points in 1946. It could also be used with any other plane. And Btw many peoples fly what they like too fly, regardles of what is avlb. I see people in mc 205 and G-2 in the main arena. I myself usualy flies the G-6, NOT THE DORA. :D
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Until we get some early planes, the idea of an RPS for AH is a little premature. Though, it's always nice to be prepared for the future. As the following statement indicates:
"Aces High takes the art and science of vintage WWII air combat
and sets it in an online high intensity environment where
hundreds of players can battle it out with and against
each other."
...Aces High concentrates on WW2 air combat which is basically 1940-1945. Now for you people who spout that you do not want your choices restricted and see no point in limiting a paying player from playing his favoritie ride, I imagine a good majority of you enjoy the LA7, N1K, Spit or P51, but ponder your own enjoyment with the game if Aces High became a 1943 to the end of the Korean War game. Many of you cry out that you do not want jets introduced or Bearcats and other aircraft which just missed participation in the war but I'm certain most of this is due to it making your favorite ride more difficult to succeed in the MA with. This is the same problem for those people who enjoy early WW2 aircraft. I do not suggest introducing jets, but I use this as an example to help you empathise with those people who like the early war aircraft which were VERY important for a period of time in WW2. The Wildcat and P40 are a whole heck of a lot more important than a N1K2 to WW2. Without something to even the play in Aces High, a Dauntless with only 1 bomb and flying what would seem 50mph is tantamount to suicide and is not what people are looking to do when paying and playing the game. I can't believe some late-war lovers can't go for a few days without maybe their favorite ride so that others who have other aircraft as a favorite ride can have a couple days of more even and entertaining play.
Oh yeah, and 95% of the posts in here are not screaming against an RPS.
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I have ideas of what would make the CT a much more enjoyable play environment, but they sadly conflict with the "realism at all costs" crowd.
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Well, back to the topic...
I'd really like to see bi-planes like Gladiator , I-153 or CR-42. And the I-16 and Fokker D.XXI would be very nice for the Winter War scenario.
gripen
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Originally posted by Karnak:
The other problem with a AvA setup is that players flock to whoever has the best aircraft in a given timeframe.
1940: Bf109E = Players flock to the Germans
1941: Spitfire Vb = Players flock to the Brits
1942: Fw190A-4 = Players flock to the Germans
1943: Spitfire LF.IX = Players flock to the Brits
1944, 1st half: P-51D, Spitfire MkXIV = Players flock to the Allies
1944, 2nd half-1945: Me262 = Players flock to the Germans
Well, a well modeled Spitfire MkI and II is as good as the 109E.
The 109F is the right 1941 thing against the Spitfire V.
Our Spitfire IX is a 1942 Merlin 61 engined thing and is what RAF had just some months after the 190A arrival. Its a matter of days in the RPS.
About 1943-45 ... well, the arena wont change from what is now. I mean, full of Spitfires, Nikis, La7 and so on.
IMHO, you can build a good RPS, provided you have enuff a/c.
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RPS, next to cost was the main reason I never signed on to Warbirds full time. Not a bad idea buuut..how about we have lots of old/new planes and have them all available all the time?
Tumor
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Originally posted by gripen:
Well, back to the topic...
I'd really like to see bi-planes like Gladiator , I-153 or CR-42. And the I-16 and Fokker D.XXI would be very nice for the Winter War scenario.
gripen
Bi-Planes WOULD be cool! I'll never squeak about ANY new Aircraft though.
Tumor
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And, even if we have a RPS we could still use the 3 teams Bish,Rook, and the glorious Knights :D we are not limited too make a ww2 arena out of the Main Arena. And it must be rather cool, flying and adapting too newer planes like the real pilots of ww2. In 28 days u could go from the He-51 too the Me 262... (or even more futuristic AC like the Gotha HX 220, the BAT WING) I know, lets not make too much out off it, but atleast HTC would have something too work on for the next 10 years. :eek: ;) :) :cool:
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If an RPS were combined with tiered plane/field availability, it might soothe the One Trick Ponies a bit. The RPS starts with the earliest planes available at all fields, and the next round available only at rear fields. As the RPS progresses, new planes are introduced at rear fields, and the preceeding group is made available at all fields, etc., etc.
This would give the One Trick Ponies their favorite rides a bit earlier in the RPS, (although they would need to ferry them to the front.)
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Its my experience that a RPS does the exact opposite of what most of you want. It actually brings less diversity to the arena.
What happens is that during each "period" you see mostly the one best TnB plane, and the one best BnZ plane, and hardly anything else. At least thats the way WB's was with their RPS.
And a note of importance concerning a RPS and all the whines about the N1K2. Yes, the N1K2-J wasn't introduced until very early in 45.
But the N1K1-J was operational in late 43 (I can get the exact dates when I get home to my books). And performance wise, the N1K1-J was only about 5 mph slower than the N1K2-J, a very little slower in climb, but otherwise you wouldn't notice alot of difference in the two in regards to gameplay in AH.
The N1K1-J would absolutely dominate a midwar portion of the RPS. And would be a obvious varient to an existing aircraft, to flesh out any RPS.
PS: Isn't it funny that the N1K2 is relatively rare in the arena now since 1.08, but its performance is barely changed? Its all about rumor, perception, attitudes, and "I heard the XXX plane is best on the BBS".
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Hi Vermillion,
>Its my experience that a RPS does the exact opposite of what most of you want. It actually brings less diversity to the arena.
I'm surprised to hear that!
I carefully recorded all "decisive engagements" on the WB.de server for two entire RPS periods, and found that I encountered almost all of the fighter types very regularly.
Some preferences were evident, but these were the exception rather than the rule:
- The Spitfire I was greatly favoured over the Hurricane I
- The Spitfire V was favoured over P-39/P-40
- The P-47 saw very little use
- The Yaks saw very little use
- The Me 109F was favoured over all other Me 109 variants
- The Ki-43 and Ki-84 saw little use
Flying for the Allies, I recorded 25 different fighter-vs.-fighter combinations during the RPS. Flying for the Axis, it even were 39 different combinations - hardly what I'd call "poor diversity" :-)
>Its all about rumor, perception, attitudes, and "I heard the XXX plane is best on the BBS".
Interesting that you mention that - the same happened in later iterations of the RPS, too, without any apparent reason.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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HoHun, pre AvA or in the Axis vs Allied arena? Big difference.
My experience was prior to the AvA arena.
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Hi Vermillion,
>HoHun, pre AvA or in the Axis vs Allied arena? Big difference.
My experience was prior to the AvA arena.
Ah, I think you've got a very good point there!
My experience was on a (now defunct) German Warbirds 2.01 server that had its own RPS with an Axis vs. Allies setup, and I never actually flew on any RPS-but-not-AvA server.
I think you've nailed the reason for our different experiences now - if I'd thought about such a setup, I'd have imagined variety to suffer just like you observed!
I guess I just took the AvA bit for granted due to my Red Baron experience in the early 1990s :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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What id like to know is why its always considered that changes to gameplay are permanent or full time?
Why can we ahve the rolling planeset? only have it for 1 or 2 days in the week?
have a vote on who wants or doesnt want it and if the majority call for change give them it.
If it doesnt seem to work and people start to complain switch it off or do it less often(once every week or even 2 weeks)
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Beaufighter Mk21/TFX
P-40K (RNZAF,or RAAF)
Spitfire Mk1a
Hurricane Mk1
BF109E-3/4
Bf110C
A6M2
A5M
Fiat Cr32
Hs-123
Ju-87B
Curtis Hawk 75A
I'd vote for a rolling Perk system. All aircraft are available, but then early war a/c like the Spitfire 1a are no perkies, but a Spit XIV would be 150 etc. As the tour wore on, the price for the XIV would decline. The current AH a/c would be eventually be at the current level after a week or so has passed.
Tronsky
486 Sqn (NZ). "Hiwa hau Maka"
[ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
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Well, good too see that someone has agreed with me abouth a roling perk sett. It should not be a big problem too find out how fast the eksampl Spitfire IX used too replase the Spit V in the majority of the spitfire squaderons. Or how many months the Jg used too replase the Emil with Friderich/Franz. And it is true that we have too find a system for planes that does not excist eks N1K1 George vs N1K2 George, release the n1k2 at n1k1 time or perk it or....?????? The avalb is also a point, was it more IJN squads vs IJN squads?(since the n1k1 George is a Navy plane like the Zero vs KI-61 Tony and Ki-84 Frank whom is Armyplanes) did the number of IJN squads decline since, there was a shortage of carriers 1944+ or did the IJN still train pilots, for IJN squads based on Islands..???? or did the n1k1 se wide use in army squads????
I am sure someone out there knows the answer. :D