Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: TonyJoey on April 16, 2010, 09:11:43 AM
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I'd like to start a discussion on what you think was the most versatile aircraft of World War 2?
My vote goes to the Mossie.
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Mossie & Ju88
Ju 88: Started as dive bomber. The it became level day & night bomber, a torpedo bomber, recon plane, a heavy day fighter, a night fighter, a heavily armed ground attack plane, ...
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F4u-4 if you consider carrier ops to be important, otherwise P-47.
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the -4 was Probably one of the best or pony
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I think the P-38 would have to be in the discussion as well. It was called upon to fly nearly every type of mission profile that a land based single seat aircraft could fly in WW2. In addition to the usual escort, intercept, and ground attack/interdiction missions it was also converted into a recon plane and a level bomber with the addition of a bombardier in the nose. They even made a night fighter variant although I'm not sure if it saw action during the war.
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I would put the P-38 and F6F as second best due to the slower max speed.
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F4U-s. Mossy is a fine pick too but since F4U's could operate off carriers, I give them the nod. :aok
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fighter is either the 190 or the f4u
med bomber ju88 or b25
both depend on carrier operations importance ...
here is a question that i used, if you could only deploy one type what would it be ...
i.e.
one single seat single engine fighter.
one twin engine multi person med bomber
one heavy bomber
one transport
etc ...
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For bombers, probably the B-25 or A-20.
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Let me specify this more. Which airframe performed the most roles, the best?
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Think you might have to throw it to the Spitfire. In combat from beginning to end. Fought the highest fight of the war. Modified for recce work and did that better then any other bird both low and high alt. Flew carrier ops. Flew ground attack. Interceptor, dog fighter. Covered every theater of the war.
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Mossie and Ju88 had the most versions performing different roles, being remarkably successful at all of them. Sea Mosquito missed WWII though.
Edit:
Yes, we need more versions of both the Mossie and Ju88.
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I think the P-38 would have to be in the discussion as well. It was called upon to fly nearly every type of mission profile that a land based single seat aircraft could fly in WW2. In addition to the usual escort, intercept, and ground attack/interdiction missions it was also converted into a recon plane and a level bomber with the addition of a bombardier in the nose. They even made a night fighter variant although I'm not sure if it saw action during the war.
they even tried troop transport, a passenger pod that attaches to the wing, but I think after they transported the first passenger it got binned? :headscratch:
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I'd have to say the PBY. Recon, search and rescue, and attacked shipping lanes. All that while being able to takeoff from land and sea.
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I really think it has to go to the Ju88.
- Transport
- Day Bomber
- Day Heavy Fighter
- Day Reconnaissance
- Night Bomber
- Night Fighter
- Night Reconnaissance
- Torpedo Bomber
- Dive Bomber
- Pathfinder
- Guided Bomb and Missile Controller
- Unguided Missile
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they even tried troop transport, a passenger pod that attaches to the wing, but I think after they transported the first passenger it got binned? :headscratch:
The personel transport pods weren't banned from the P-38s, they were just used very rarely and I think in extreme cases where there were no other options. Those that rode in them likened it to being stuck in Hell and one even threatened to put the designer in the pods so he'd know what Hell felt like. Must have been terrifying and rather clausterphobic to be stuck in one of those windowless pods.
ack-ack
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Mossie and Ju88 had the most versions performing different roles, being remarkably successful at all of them. Sea Mosquito missed WWII though.
Edit:
Yes, we need more versions of both the Mossie and Ju88.
I don't know who wrote this essay but he makes a very good argument for the Mosquito being the most versatile plane in WW2.
De Havilland Mosquito - The most versatile and successful allied aircraft of World War 2 (http://www.2worldwar2.com/mosquito.htm)
While it is no surprise that I love the P-38 and the fact that it was a jack of all trades and performed well in all it's areas of use, it definitely was overshadowed by the more versatile Mosquito.
ack-ack
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I really think it has to go to the Ju88.
- Transport
- Day Bomber
- Day Heavy Fighter
- Day Reconnaissance
- Night Bomber
- Night Fighter
- Night Reconnaissance
- Torpedo Bomber
- Dive Bomber
- Pathfinder
- Guided Bomb and Missile Controller
- Unguided Missile
Based on that list, the Beaufighter would give it a run for it's money :)
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When did the Germans ever use pathfinders?
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Didn't they use KG 100 for "fire-raising" with the Knickebein system?
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Didn't they use KG 100 for "fire-raising" with the Knickebein system?
Not sure. I am not remotely as familiar with German operations after 1940 as I am with British operations.
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Well both the Beaufighter and the Mosquito are very close to the Ju88 in terms of versatility. So it would come down to defining each role specifically enough to split hairs.
But come on, nobody ever strapped a Spit on top of either a Beau or Mossie and used it as a missile! :lol (that I'm aware of)
Karnak, it's my understanding that the Ju88S-2 and S-3 were designed and used as pathfinders.
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S series didn't come into existence until late 1943 as far as I know. I wasn't aware of any German operations that late in the game that would have benefited from Pathfinders, unless the German use of the term is different than the British use of it.
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Pathfinders based on a beam signal from the ground would suffer with the same range problems as just bombing from the beam, since the curvature of the earth allows only "so" much range.
Anyway, I would put my vote to the Mossie. Fighter, Attacker, Bomber, Night Fighter both offensive (intruder) and defensive , pathfinder, Recce, Transport/Special ops (Yes, VIP passenger room in the bomb-bay). Although the JU-88 was good and a torp-hauler as well, it would not hold up with the Mossie in some other roles. Anything could be Recce, but the Mossie was better than most at it.
Someone mentioned the Spitfire. Sort of good, - it was designed as a defensive fighter with short legs and good altitude performance, but ended up with features as long range recce, attacker, high-alt superiority fighter, offensive fighter, carrier borne fighter, and...the beauty queen of the lot :D
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Well Karnak I read about it in "Bombers of the Luftwaffe" by Dressel and Griehl. It has a couple of photo's of Ju88S's downed in England, and stated they were used as pathfinders. It may be a discrepancy in the usage or in translation from German, but it was a modification to the design for a specific purpose.
One aspect of this discussion that hasn't been touched on is the variety of design requirements. Neither the Beaufighter or Mosquito were designed to be a high angle dive bomber, sure they were used as such, but in a more limited way then the Ju88. In my opinion the designers of the Ju88 faced a ridiculous set of design requirements for the mid 1930's.
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In my opinion the designers of the Ju88 faced a ridiculous set of design requirements for the mid 1930's.
...and on top of that, the requirements weren't all clear from the get go but changed during the designing of the plane.
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im biased here, but i gotta say 190. it does every role fairly well. good dive bomber, great buff killer, F8 great for de-acking, and they're decent in a furball
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I'd have to say Mossie was most versatile ever made . period.
of added interest plane that gave the most to development of the RAF and new weapons
The hawker Hurricane.....no hear me out on this one. was a great dog fighter, anti tank plane with the twin Vickers , sea hurricane (not the one use hurri cat but fully fledged carrier borne fighter bomber. ) first Britsh plane fitted with rockets (hurri MK IV) . was the test bed for all new British munitions (first fitted with napalm tanks) . was developed into the typhoon , Pauls defiant was the bastige child of one with a Vickers turret.
It scored the most kills against the Luftwaffe in the BoB downing more planes than ALL other defence (aircraft , AAA) put together. Served in all theatres of WWII. Flown by more aces than any other fighter in the RAF (most spit aces were already an ace in the Hurricane or scored their majority of kills in the Hurricane first) .
Though it was never as fast as the spitfire it helped develop most of the new weapons systems due to it's robust build and design allowing modifications for test purposes while not causing a drain on front line fighters .
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Hurri was not developed into the Typhoon.
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it's not a direct development .
But it was used as a test bed for the designs that would become the Typhoon (the typhoon kept the same wing shape and internal designs of the later Mk hurricanes (there were 19 Mks produced in all by hawker before the wars end, 5 of which were sea hurricanes ) . The engine mounting systems were also taken from the hurricane for the MK1a Typhoon. Aileron and elevator designs were again taken from latter Mk hurries , Though these were to change for the MKII onward as it's role was changed.
They power plant and fuselage construction though being very different owe a lot to lessons learned and the positives of the Hurricanes aerodynamics (e.g positive elevator and aileron control in high speed dives)
Not saying it was great , just that later aircraft owe a lot to the lessons taught (though not mistakes) from Sir Sidney Cams great little fighter/bomber
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When did the Germans ever use pathfinders?
From 1940 onwards in large scale operations.
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Is that *the* Grendel there? If so, have a question for you about Poli Ringbom.
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From 1940 onwards in large scale operations.
Hard to use a late 1943 aircraft in 1940 though...
Also, what did German pathfinders do? I have never heard of German raids using target markers like British raids did.
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Hard to use a late 1943 aircraft in 1940 though...
Also, what did German pathfinders do? I have never heard of German raids using target markers like British raids did.
They did the same thing. Marking targets as well as setting flight path markers.
One example: The raid on Bristol 27/28 March 43:
The meeting point was over Guernsey, marked by a battery of searchlights on the ground.
The next waypoint near Newport was marked by four red flare bombs at 3000m, which was renewed 3 times (every 12 minutes)by 3 more planes.
The target was marked by a mix of white & yellow flare bombs by planes of I./KG 66.
The German "pathfinders" were mostly called "Beleuchter" (=illluminators)
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allied- Mossie or P-47 in all their variants IMO
axis- Ju-88 personally I hate flying it, because it's a shuddering slow pig and can't dive WOS IMO, but it's history is undeniable. :salute
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Ju-88 was extremely versatile, but it pales in comparison to the mosquito. The Ju-88 was being gradually pulled back from almost every role as it be came more and more vulnerable. The mosquito lasted till the end as a highly successful and contemporary plane and kept taking more and more roles. Also, no need to mention what happened when mosquitoes ran into Ju-88s in the air...
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I'd like to start a discussion on what you think was the most versatile aircraft of World War 2?
My vote goes to the Mossie.
From Merriaum-Webster;
Main Entry: ver·sa·tile
1 : changing or fluctuating readily : variable <a versatile disposition>
2 : embracing a variety of subjects, fields, or skills; also : turning with ease from one thing to another
3 a (1) : capable of turning forward or backward : reversible <a versatile toe of a bird> (2) : capable of moving laterally and up and down <versatile antennae> b of an anther : having the filaments attached at or near the middle so as to swing freely
4 : having many uses or applications <versatile building material>
Given that definition of versatile, I do not see how the course of the war should diminish the versatility of the Ju88 or improve the Mosquito.
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Was there a role that the Ju88 could fulfill while the Mossie could not?
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P38, without a doubt.
It was built before WWII started and was flying in one form or another until the end.
It could as far as the longest legged fighters with the correct engine settings.
It flew as a fighter, Recon platform, Droopsnoot, and after the war it was doing surveys for civilian companies.
It could carry much more ord than recommended through the use of sway bars. It was even tested to carry 2 torpedos.
It was even functionally tested with skis instead of wheels.
It flew in Europe, the Pacific, Africa, and the CBI theaters
Need I go on?
The mossie is up there as well. Anytime you marry a twin engined a/c in something smaller than a medium bomber (like the Ju88) you have room to alter the original design/concept without making it a death trap.
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Here's a couple of questions for you guys that have more Mosquito information than I do.
1.) Was the Mosquito ever used (during WW2) to launch and control guided rockets or guided bombs?
2.) Was there ever a design requirement for high angle dive bombing?
3.) Was the Mosquito ever used in a configuration / manner like the Mistel?
If we are going to include the discussion of length of service as criteria for versatility then I have a few more questions.
4.) Did the Mosquito participate in the Battle of France?
5.) Did the Mosquito participate in the Battle of Britain?
If I was given a choice about which plane I'd rather fly in combat it would easily be the Mosquito, but I still think the Ju 88 was a more versatile aircraft.
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allied- P-47 in all their variants IMO
How was the P-47 more versatile than let's say the P-38 or the P-51 or even the F6F? Not to make an argument for the Lightning but if was far more versatile than the Jug ever was. The Jug only served as a fighter and ground attack aircraft, the P-38 performed the same rolls in addition to being a night fighter, pathfinder, level bomber, photo/recce just to name a few.
ack-ack
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1.) Was the Mosquito ever used (during WW2) to launch and control guided rockets or guided bombs?
Did the Ju 88?
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Calling the Ju-88 a heavy day fighter is like calling the Beaufighter a fighter. It was really an attack platform. You wouldn't call the IL2 a fighter, right?
IMO, Probably the 109. Not just for sheer modifications to the airframe like some are listing here, but because it was used everywhere for everything.
It started as a simple continental fighter. Moved on to be used over Britain, the Med, in Africa, the middle east, the Soviet Union. It had everything from all MGs to MGs removed and only cannons, to no cannons and cameras. They even had carrier-capable variants (never mind that the carriers never developed). the airframe was not the best, but it was used everywhere and for everything. One version even carried a bomb so big they had to stick and extension tail gear under the fuselage to lift it up. Once airborn thise parachuted down. The plane dropped the bomb and landed with its normal tail gear. The plane was responsible for most of the RAF losses on the western front for a long time, even after Fw190s started showing up.
Of course it had its major failings. At first range was too short without a drop tank (rather, it was too short for the military doctrine of the BOB), and armament was always an issue after the E, hence the additions of higher-caliber nose cannon and wing gondolas, but these wouldn't be the same as other aircraft.
I think that many planes fit the bill, definitely the P-47 ranks up there as the plane that broke the back of the Luftwaffe and wiped the ground with the IJA in the pacific. I think the P-51 counts if you include its post-war record but during WW2 it was mostly just used for long range escort (unless you count the limited allison ground attack versions?). Then there was the bomber used extensively for fighter sweeps, the P-38 (*ducks, runs, hides*).
Overall, lots of choices, but out of stupid blindness, out of limited options, out of political restrictions, and out of the utter non-flexability of the german war machine industry, they just used that 109 for EVERY thing they needed. Not necessarily the best at every role, but I'd think the most versatile for sure.
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Calling the Ju-88 a heavy day fighter is like calling the Beaufighter a fighter. It was really an attack platform. You wouldn't call the IL2 a fighter, right?
Unlike the Il-2 the Ju 88 had variants purposely bulit for a heavy and long range fighter role, and they were designated as such.
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I think it comes down to this.
If you had to fight a WWII era war, but were only allowed to have a single airframe, which would you take?
Lets look at the suggested aircraft in this thread and the roles they could do:
Spitfire:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: no
Carrier fighter: yes
Night fighter: no
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: yes
Torpedo bomber: no
P-47:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: no
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: no
Torpedo bomber: no
Hurricane:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: no
Carrier fighter: yes
Night fighter: no
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: no
Torpedo bomber: no
P-51:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: no
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: no
Torpedo bomber: no
F4U
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: no
Carrier fighter: yes
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: no
Torpedo bomber: no
P-38:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: yes
PR aircraft: yes
Torpedo bomber: no
Beaufighter
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: no
Torpedo bomber: yes
Ju88
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: yes
PR aircraft: yes
Torpedo bomber: yes
Mosquito
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: yes
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: yes
PR aircraft: yes
Torpedo bomber: yes
Only one airframe could answer "yes" to all of the core duties needed for a WWII conflict. None of these will be best at all the categories they can fill, there is no way a Beaufighter or Ju88 fighter will match a Spitfire as an interceptor for example, but they could be used in all the roles listed and marked "yes".
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I think that many planes fit the bill, definitely the P-47 ranks up there as the plane that broke the back of the Luftwaffe and wiped the ground with the IJA in the pacific. I think the P-51 counts if you include its post-war record but during WW2 it was mostly just used for long range escort (unless you count the limited allison ground attack versions?). Then there was the bomber used extensively for fighter sweeps, the P-38 (*ducks, runs, hides*).
"Breaking the back of the Luftwaffe" doesn't mean the Jug was versatile, nor did it 'wipe the ground with the IJA in the Pacific. The P-38 was by far the dominant USAAF fighter in the PTO and it was the USAAF fighter in that theater that broke the IJAF's back and wiped the ground with the IJA, not the Jug or the Mustang.
ack-ack
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Forgive me for overstating it. However the Jug did essentially break the LW's back for the ponies later on to mop up. They did a lot of ground pounding throughout the PTO as well. Probably more than any other land-based plane.
It was able to do almost any job at any range (see P-47Ns escoring B-29s to Tokyo and back), and at extreme altitudes.
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P-47s would not make effective bombers. I don't know that any single engined aircraft would.
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Probably more than any other land-based plane.
Nope.
It was able to do almost any job at any range (see P-47Ns escoring B-29s to Tokyo and back), and at extreme altitudes.
So was the P-38 in the PTO in addition to serving many other roles the Jug wasn't able to.
ack-ack
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Wasn't able to? Or didn't need to? You only need so many types of night fighter. You only need so many types of photo recon. The US military in WW2 had every type it needed.
The ability of the P-38 doesn't imply an inability in the P-47.
Just sayin'....
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I think it comes down to this.
If you had to fight a WWII era war, but were only allowed to have a single airframe, which would you take?
Lets look at the suggested aircraft in this thread and the roles they could do:
Spitfire:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: no
Carrier fighter: yes
Night fighter: no
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: yes
Torpedo bomber: no
P-47:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: no
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: no
Torpedo bomber: no
Hurricane:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: no
Carrier fighter: yes
Night fighter: no
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: no
Torpedo bomber: no
P-51:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: no
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: no
Torpedo bomber: no
F4U
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: no
Carrier fighter: yes
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: no
Torpedo bomber: no
P-38:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: yes
PR aircraft: yes
Torpedo bomber: no
Beaufighter
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: no
PR aircraft: no
Torpedo bomber: yes
Ju88
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: yes
PR aircraft: yes
Torpedo bomber: yes
Mosquito
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: yes
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: yes
PR aircraft: yes
Torpedo bomber: yes
Only one airframe could answer "yes" to all of the core duties needed for a WWII conflict. None of these will be best at all the categories they can fill, there is no way a Beaufighter or Ju88 fighter will match a Spitfire as an interceptor for example, but they could be used in all the roles listed and marked "yes".
There was a carrier version of the Mosquito?
ack-ack
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Wasn't able to? Or didn't need to? You only need so many types of night fighter. You only need so many types of photo recon. The US military in WW2 had every type it needed.
The ability of the P-38 doesn't imply an inability in the P-47.
Just sayin'....
The P-38 was capable of doing at least one role the P-47 was not, level bombing.
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There was a carrier version of the Mosquito?
ack-ack
Yes, post war, there were three carrier versions of the Mosquito.
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I think it comes down to this.
If you had to fight a WWII era war, but were only allowed to have a single airframe, which would you take?
Lets look at the suggested aircraft in this thread and the roles they could do:
.......
P-38:
Interceptor: yes
Strike aircraft: yes
Long range fighter: yes
Carrier fighter: no
Night fighter: yes
Bomber: yes
PR aircraft: yes
Torpedo bomber: no
.....
Only one airframe could answer "yes" to all of the core duties needed for a WWII conflict. None of these will be best at all the categories they can fill, there is no way a Beaufighter or Ju88 fighter will match a Spitfire as an interceptor for example, but they could be used in all the roles listed and marked "yes".
I cut down the quote a little to save space but I had a question/ possible correction to make. Are you counting capability? or actual use? For instance the P-38 could carry and deploy a torpedo (two actually) but it never actually operated in that capacity in a war zone.
(http://rareaircraf1.greyfalcon.us/picturesn/ac43.jpg)
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Karnak,
It's interesting that your no for carrier operations stated earlier, is now a yes since you have rephrased the the question.
Lusche,
I guess I am mistaken about the Ju88's launching Hs293's. I'm going back through my books to find it, I thought I remembered reading about Ju 88's using them in the Mediterranean. I guess it must have been a case of mistaken identity.
I guess it really is a matter of personal perspective, the Mosquito played no part in the biggest aerial battle Britain faced during the war. It has the advantage of it's first flight being almost 4 years later than the Ju88. I have no problem saying the Mosquito was a better plane then the Ju88 in their designed roles. However, I feel that the Ju88 was more versatile then the Mosquito, it truly fought from beginning to end. It was capable of carrying a bomb load that no other twin engine plane could even come close to in 1937. I may have over stated it's ability to carry and use guided rockets or bombs but removing that from the list doesn't change it's position in my view as the most versatile aircraft used during world war two.
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The P-38 was capable of doing at least one role the P-47 was not, level bombing.
For the sake of simply being combatitive ( :neener: ), "Any plane can level bomb" and a P-47 could carry as much as a B-25 with less risk of life and limb if shot down, more capability of defending itself if intercepted, and could fly a lot faster and higher than one.
Fact of the matter is they had level bombers. When they didn't they would just lead a formation with a single bomber and have other planes drop on its command. Even the bombers they had often didn't need level bombsights in the PTO (solid nose strafers, parafrags, low alt bombs or dive bombing or skip bombing, etc). That's why those glass nose P-38s were so rare. Just not really needed.
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Forgive me for overstating it. However the Jug did essentially break the LW's back for the ponies later on to mop up. They did a lot of ground pounding throughout the PTO as well. Probably more than any other land-based plane.
It was able to do almost any job at any range (see P-47Ns escoring B-29s to Tokyo and back), and at extreme altitudes.
In my opinion that's too simplified. The war of attrition with the LW started prior to the Jug too. And if you look at when the LW in essence was finally dominated it was the early 44 time frame after the 51B got into the fight. Once the Allies could take the fight all the way into Germany, the game was over. That being said, the Spits in particular had been taking it to the LW long before the Jug. For that matter the P40s, Hurri's etc in the Desert were doing the same thing long before the Jug too.
As for PTO use. Again the 40s, 39s 38s did the heavy lifting. The Jug certainly got into the game, but in numbers it wasn't right away
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Hard to use a late 1943 aircraft in 1940 though...
Also, what did German pathfinders do? I have never heard of German raids using target markers like British raids did.
For what you'd need a 1943 aircraft for 1940 pathfinder job?
Luftwaffe used what they and and the crews they had trained for the job, meaning especially the Heinkel 111s from KG 100. Plenty of stuff at the net about them and there's quite a few books of German pathfinder operations too, for example:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/German-Elite-Pathfinders-Action-Luftwaffe/dp/1853674249
A pretty nice summary of one operation is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_Blitz
The raid that began on the evening of 14 November 1940 was the most severe to hit Coventry during the war. It was carried out by 515 German bombers, from Luftflotte 3 and from the pathfinders of Kampfgruppe 100. The attack, code-named Operation Mondscheinsonate (Moonlight Sonata), was intended to destroy Coventry's factories and industrial infrastructure, although it was clear that damage to the rest of the city, including monuments and residential areas, would be considerable. The initial wave of 13 specially modified Heinkel He 111 aircraft of Kampfgruppe 100, were equipped with X-Gerät navigational devices, accurately dropping marker flares at 19:20.
At best, the German pathfinders were able to pinpoint the targets, drop flares accurately and create excellent target for the following night bomber fleet. And at worst, countryside was full of craters. Just like the later Allied pathfinder led operations. Sometimes excellent, sometimes crappy results. Neverthless, KG 100 seems to be the first pathfinder squadron of WW2, of all sides.
The night battle between RAF and Luftwaffe, the technological side, is worth several books on its own:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams
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The spits hadn't been "taking it to the LW" so much as "holding their own." The LW was more than a match for the RAF after the BOB. Losses were sustained on both sides, but looking at JG2's performance over the channel, they were downing Spit5s by the dozens every month. 109F2, F4, G2, and 190A2/A3/A4 in 1942/43 were superior to most of the RAF planes in overall combat effectiveness. The RAF was not responsible for breaking the back of the LW IMO. They repulsed them. They stopped their plans during BOB. They didn't break it. It was still more than strong enough to fight on a 2 front war for years afterwards.
Staying over the UK wasn't going to stop the war, and wasn't going to break the LW. The spits lacked the real range to do much other than nuisance raids and circuses over France. The early P-47s over Europe saw widespread use beginning in late 1942 and early 1943, and kept pounding on the LW until it was broken by the time P-51s showed up. The P-47 has more kills than the P-51 in europe, by several times last I recall. They were the ones pushing into the continent because P-38s were shunned (won't get into that) and P-51s weren't ready, and the RAF compliment couldn't make the range.
Later on when the LW was being pushed back and the ponies were showing up to escort, the P-47s would often go hunting for the LW and even attack them on the ground, further depleting their numbers.
Like the hurricane in the BOB, the P-47 over Europe did most of the work and the P-51 gets all the adoration. They both did well, but one had a larger hand in the overall success.
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Karnak,
It's interesting that your no for carrier operations stated earlier, is now a yes since you have rephrased the the question.
I included post war capabilities in the second one whereas in the first comment I limited it to capabilities deployed during WWII. The carrier version was developed at the end of WWII, but not deployed until after WWII.
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Without a doubt the Ju88. It had so many roles and it could do all of them decently. Different variants of it improved throughout the war and made it better. Though it still had weak point it did a multitude of jobs that no other aircraft did.
BigKev
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Without a doubt the Ju88. It had so many roles and it could do all of them decently. Different variants of it improved throughout the war and made it better. Though it still had weak point it did a multitude of jobs that no other aircraft did.
BigKev
Mossie did more, better.
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One can strap a machinegun to a piper-cub and call it a fighter. Doesn't really make it count as one. The mosquito was considered top of its trade in many roles and lasted as such. Even when it was finally moved to second rank by the appearance of jets, it lasted well into the jet age in many airforces worldwide. It was so successful that it caused a paradigm shift in the whole concept of a bomber to a multi-role plane. The Ju-88 is perhaps the only plane who can even claim to compete with the mosuito on the title, but it was not nearly as influential to the multi-role concept.
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That is IMHO absolutely true.
Regarding the dive-bombing issue of the JU88, it was a troublesome effort.
And for comparison in each and every role, the Mossie is faster, more agile, more heavily armed, had long legs and while keeping up with top-speed single-engined fighters in the speed department. I remember the frustration of one Spitfire Pilot of being only marginally faster than a Ju-88 because of his tropical filter(Vokes), and then admiring the Mossie for being what he called faster than the single engined fighters.
Then....the Mossie was a material-budget aircraft. Wood.....
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How was the P-47 more versatile than let's say the P-38 or the P-51 or even the F6F? Not to make an argument for the Lightning but if was far more versatile than the Jug ever was. The Jug only served as a fighter and ground attack aircraft, the P-38 performed the same rolls in addition to being a night fighter, pathfinder, level bomber, photo/recce just to name a few.
ack-ack
As I understand it, the Jug was used in a wide varieties of rolls over most of the conflict. High Bomber escort, bomber interdiction, very controllable in high speed dive bombing, good wing load, carries a very heavy bomb, rocket load, for a single place, single engine plane.... was dependable, had high survivability and versatility and because of that, was in high production. There's all kinds of opinions...just listen to these old guys brag about their planes... :salute
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As I understand it, the Jug was used in a wide varieties of rolls over most of the conflict. High Bomber escort, bomber interdiction, very controllable in high speed dive bombing, good wing load, carries a very heavy bomb, rocket load, for a single place, single engine plane.... was dependable, had high survivability and versatility and because of that, was in high production. There's all kinds of opinions...just listen to these old guys brag about their planes... :salute
Whatever the roles the P-47 performed, the P-38 did as well and many more. The Lightning was a far more verstile plane than the Jug, after all it's not referred to as a jack of all trades for nothing.
ack-ack
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as most have told
no way ...
the answear is
j88
as most says it's even used as bomb
yes an entire airplane like a bomb.....
Description:
The Mistel series of composite aircraft are without a doubt one of the strangest concepts to achieve operational status with the Luftwaffe. The original concept was proposed to the RLM in 1941 by Siegfried Holzbauer, A Junkers test pilot. His idea was to make use of "tired" Ju 88 airframes by packing them with explosives, fly them near a target and crash them into the target after the fighter had released itself. The fighter pilot would control the "missle" after release by remote control.
The first conversion flew in July 1943 and proved successful enough for the RLM to approved a further 15 conversions, with the code name Beethoven. Tests with Ju 88 fuselage sized hollow charge warheads against the French battleship Oran proved to be successful and an eventual thickness of 60 feet of reinforced concrete was breached in further tests. Over 250 Mistels of various combinations were built, but like all the Third Reichs super weapons, they proved too little too late.
(http://hsfeatures.com/images/Mistel_ICR01.jpg)
(http://aerostories.free.fr/appareils/compopara/mistel-us.jpg)
(http://www.century-of-flight.net/new%20site/images9/13.jpg)
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The pony by far, it did it all and then some. It followed the same principles of today's air superiority fighters. It was not the fastest, not the most maneuverable, didn't have the best firepower, didn't climb the fastest, it simply did the job. Besides, the pony was one of only a few that could do dogfight, follow bombers all the way to their target, and strafe and bomb ground targets on the way back home.
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as most says it's even used as bomb
yes an entire airplane like a bomb.....
Being used as a bomb is perhaps the most humiliating things that can happen to a plane. F6Fs were used as target drones and I don't count it towards the "versatility" of this otherwise wonderful airplane.
The pony by far, it did it all and then some.
The pony is definitely the plane with the highest PR-loading (public relations per actual contribution). Its two greatest features were good range and lower costs than the other competitive USAF fighters. P38s and P47 shot down more planes and conducted more air strikes than P51s and filled more roles than it did. When finally P51D were fielded in great numbers it didn't really matter. Finally there was a plane who could escort the B17s all the way to Berlin without meeting the opposition. Not like it didn't contribute anything, but it is not even the 3nd most important US aircraft.
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Karnak must work with statistics a lot... Select only the roles the Mosquito can fill and compare with other aircraft, regardless of other roles that other aircraft can fill. Declare Mosquito the winner.
It's not that easy.
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Ju 88
Ju 88A-0 Pre-production aircraft.
Ju 88A-1 Initial production variant. 895 kW (1,200 hp) Jumo 211B-1 engines
Ju 88A-2 Jumo 211G-1 engines.
Ju 88A-3 Conversion trainer. Dual controls.
Ju 88A-4 Improved variant. Long span wings. Modified with new bomb dropping equipment to produce a A-15 "special" bomber variant. RLM refused to authorise mass production, as the wooden bomb bay "bulge" caused too much drag and a thus a reduction in speed.
Ju 88B Prototype with all-new fully glazed "stepless" crew compartment nose, developed into Ju 188.
Ju 88B-0 10 pre-production aircraft with "stepless" fully glazed nose.
Ju 88C V1 Prototype Zerstörer. Conversion of Ju 88 V7. Four crew, two 1,200 hp (895 kW) Jumo 211B-1 liquid-cooled engines, three MG 15s plus internal bomb load.
Ju 88C-0 Pre-production version of Zerstörer. Conversions of Ju 88A-1 aircraft.
Ju 88C-1 Planned production version of C-0 with two 1,600 hp BMW 801MA air-cooled radial engines. Conversion of A-1 with three MG 17 machine-guns and one 20 mm MG FF cannon. None completed.
Ju 88C-2 Initial production version for Zerstörer role. Modified Ju 88A-1 with new non-glazed nose, two 1,200 hp Jumo 211B-1 engines, 3 crew, three fixed forward-firing 7.9 mm MG 17 machine-guns and one 20 mm MG FF cannon, plus two defensive 7.9 mm MG 15 machine-guns in dorsal and ventral positions. Maximum bomb load 1,102 lb (550 kg).
Ju 88C-3 Modified C-2 with two 1,600 hp BMW 801MA engines. One conversion.
Ju 88C-4 Zerstörer/reconnaissance version. Modified Ju 88A-4 with solid nose, two Jumo 211F-1 engines, increased armament to two 20 mm MG FF cannon in ventral gondola (swapped for cameras in recce role), extra 7.9 mm MG 15 in rear of gondola, more crew armour protection, increased weight, strengthened undercarriage. First new-build version.
Ju 88C-4/R Late production model of C-4 with 1,340 hp (1,000 kW) Jumo 211J-1 or J-2 engines.
Ju 88C-5 Zerstörer version. Improved C-4 with two 1,700 hp (1268 kW) BMW 801D-2, 3 crew, ventral gondola replaced by 'Waffentropfen' weapon pack below fuselage with two MG 17s and MG FF cannon replaced by MG 151. 10 pre-production examples only.
Ju 88C-6a Day-Zerstörer version. Modified C-4 with two Jumo 211J-1 or J-2 engines, increased armour plating, fixed armament of three 7.9 mm MG 17s and one 20 mm MG FF cannon in the nose plus two MG FF in re-introduced ventral gondola plus one defensive MG 15 or MG 131. Various armament modifications.
Ju 88C-6b Night-fighter version. Designation applied retroactively to C-6a when fitted with FuG 202 Lichtenstein BC or (by Autumn 1942) FuG 212 Lichtenstein C-1 radar. New HF radio.
Ju 88C-6c As C-6b with FuG 220 Lichtenstein SN-2 plus (some models) Lichtenstein C-1, defensive armament one MG 131, some later with two oblique upward-firing 20 mm MG 151s in dorsal 'Schräge Musik' installation. Some with Jumo 211H turbocharged engines.
Ju 88C-7a Intruder version with two Jumo 211J-1 engines, 2-3 crew, ventral gondola replaced by jettisonable ventral weapon pack with two MG FF/M, three fixed forward-firing MG 17s, max bomb load 1,102 lb (500 kg).
Ju 88C-7b As C-7a with underwing bomb-racks, max bomb load 3,305 lb (1,500 kg).
Ju 88C-7c Zerstörer version, modified C-7a, two 1,600 hp BMW 801MA engines, three MG 17 and one MG 151 in nose plus two MG FF in weapon pack, no bomb racks. Pre-production batch only.
Ju 88P V1 Anti-tank prototype. Modified A-4 with one 75 mm KwK 39 anti-tank cannon forward plus twin 7.9 mm MG 81Z aft of large ventral fairing. Two 1,340 hp Jumo 211J engines.
Ju 88P-1 Production model of Ju 88P V1 with solid unglazed nose, KwK 39 replaced by 75 mm PaK 40 anti-tank cannon, 2 or 3 crew, one forward firing MG 81 for sighting of cannon plus two twin MG 81Zs.
Ju 88P-2 As P-1 with two 37 mm BK 3.7 (Flak 38) cannon in large ventral fairing. A-4 conversions.
Ju 88P-3 As P-2 with increased armour plating, two Jumo 211H engines. A-4 conversions.
Ju 88P-4 Heavy fighter/anti-tank version, two Jumo 211J-2 engines, offensive armament reduced to single 50 mm BK 5 cannon, shortened ventral fairing. One aircraft fitted with 22-shot launcher for RZ 65 rockets, for testing.
Ju 88R-1 Night-fighter version. Re-engined C-6b with two 1,600 hp BMW 801MA or 801C engines and FuG 212 Lichenstein C-1 radar. Three MG 17 and one 20 mm MG 151/20 in nose plus two MG FF in ventral gondola.
Ju 88R-2 Version of R-1 with two 1,700 hp BMW 801D and the addition of FuG 202 Lichtenstein BC plus FuG 217 Neptun R tail-warning radar. Some also fitted with FuG 350 Naxos Z passive radar.
Ju 88G V1 Prototype of improved night-fighter version. Modified Ju 88R-2 with two 1,700 hp BMW 801D engines, 3 crew, two fixed MG 151s in fuselage nose and four fixed MG 151/20s in ventral gun tray plus one 13 mm MG 131 at rear of cockpit, FuG 212 Lichtenstein C-1 radar.
Ju 88G-0 Pre-production night-fighter version. Reduced armament (four MG 151/20), FuG 220 Lichtenstein SN-2 radar, more angular fin and rudder shape.
Ju 88G-1 Production version of G-0. BMW 801D engines. Some modified equipment, four MG 151s in ventral gun tray; Lichtenstein SN-2 radar plus FuG-227 Flensburg homing receiver.
Ju 88G-2 Version of G-1 with revised equipment. Production cancelled.
Ju 88G-3 Project only.
Ju 88G-4 Improved version of G-1. Small equipment changes. Some with two oblique upward-firing 20 mm MG 151 in dorsal 'Schräge Musik' installation.
Ju 88G-5 Version of G-1 with revised equipment. Project only.
Ju 88G-6a Version of G-4. Dorsal 'Schräge Musik' installation now standard with two 20 mm MG 151/20s. Two 1,700 hp BMW 801G engines, improved equipment. Aft facing antenna for SN-2 introduced.
Ju 88G-6b As for G-6a , addition of FuG 350 Naxos Z in cockpit roof, increased fuel capacity.
Ju 88G-6c Two 1,750 hp (1,306 kW) Jumo 213A, reduced fuel capacity, 'Schräge Musik' installation moved to just aft of cockpit.
Ju 88G-7a Introduced pointed wing tips from Ju 188, span increased to 72 ft 2 in?, two 1,725 hp Jumo 213E with MW 50 power booster, very broad propeller blades, 3 crew, FuG 220 Lichtenstein SN-2 radar.
Ju 88G-7b As G-7a with FuG 228 Lichtenstein SN-3 or FuG 218 Neptun VR radar (as Ju 88G-7n), some with pointed wooden nose cone.
Ju 88G-7c As for G-7a with FuG 240 Berlin N-1a radar in blunt wooden nose cone. No external aerials.
Ju 88G-8 Long range Zerstörer. As for G-7 but with fuselage of H-2.
Ju 88G-10 Similar to G-8 but used for Mistel programme.
Ju 88G-12 Developed into the Ju 188R series.
Ju 88H-2 Long range fighter version of Ju 88H-1 reconnaissance aircraft. Based on stretched Ju 88D-1 fuselage with Ju 88G-1 wings and engines. Two 20 mm MG 151 cannon in solid nose and four more in belly pack. No radar.
Ju 88N Unofficial designation for one Ju 88C-4 fitted with Nebelwerfer rocket launcher.
Mistel 2 Composite flying bomb with Fw 190A-6 (or Fw 190F-8) upper stage and Ju 88G-1 lower stage. Cockpit section replaced by bolt-on shaped charge warhead.
Mistel S2 Trainer conversion of Mistel 2.
Mistel 3C Composite flying bomb with Fw 190A-8 and Ju 88G-10. Project only.
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Mosquito
Prototype/PR.1 Prototype and first few photo-reconnaissance aircraft. Easily distinguishable by short engine nacelles. Two Rolls-Royce Merlin 21 engines with two speed, single stage superchargers and De Havilland hydromatic propellers.
F.II Fighter. Developed from prototype W4052. Four 20mm cannon and four.303in Browning machine guns. Rolls-Royce Merlin 21 and 23 engines. Two were built experimentally with a rotating dorsal turret equipped with four .303in machine guns. Some examples converted to PR.II.
T.III Trainer. As Mark II but with dual control and without armament. Rolls-Royce Merlin 21 and 23 engines
B.IV Unarmed bomber. Like the PR.1 but with longer engine nacelles. Rolls-Royce Merlin 21 and 23 engines. Capacity for four 500lb bombs (with shortened fins) in the fuselage in place of the four 250lb bombs in the original design. Later modified to carry a 4000lb bomb (blockbuster or "cookie") with a bulged bomb-bay. The first operational sorties were made in daylight to Cologne. The first bombing of Berlin by daylight was made by B.IV's on 30th January 1943.
PR.IV Unarmed photo-reconnaissance aircraft. Like the B.IV, but with provision for cameras instead of bombs. A variant of the PR.IV was supplied to BOAC as the prototype Mosquito courier-transport. 'Accommodation' for the two passengers was on their backs in the felt-padded bomb bay.
B.V Prototype developed from the B.IV with new 'standard wing' to take either two 50 gallon jettisonable wing tanks or two 500lb bombs. Rolls-Royce Merlin 23 engines. This aircraft was the basis of the Canadian B.VII.
FB.VI Fighter bomber. Developed from the NF.II with Rolls- Royce Merlin 22, 23 and 25 engines. Same armament as the NF.II plus two 50 gallon jettisonable wing tanks or two 500lb bombs (or extra tankage in the fuselage behind the cannon). Provision was made in 1944 to carry four 60lb rockets under each wing in place of the wing tanks or bombs for attacks on shipping. Two Mk.6 Mosquitos were modified for deck landing and converted to Sea Mosquitos by adding an arrestor hook, strengthening the rear fuselage and fitting four bladed propellers, becoming the basis for the Mk.33.
B.VII Bomber. First 25 Canadian built Mosquitos based on the B.V, but with Packard Merlin 31 engines driving Hamilton standard propellers.
PR.VIII Photo-reconnaissance aircraft. The first high altitude Mosquitos. The PR.VIII was converted from B.IV by fitting special Merlin 61 intercooled engines with two speed, two stage superchargers and adding provision for two 50 gallon jettisonable wing tanks. Only five were built.
B.IX Bomber. First high altitude unarmed bomber. Merlin 72 intercooled engines with two speed, two stage superchargers. Capacity for four 500lb bombs in the fuselage and two 500lb bombs on the wings or extra fuselage fuel tanks and 50 gallon jettisonable wing tanks. A few were converted to take one 4000lb bomb in the fuselage with two 50 gallon jettisonable wing tanks which were later in 1944 replaced by 100 gallon jettisonable wing tanks subject to a weight limitation of 25,200lb. A Pathfinder version was developed by the RAF.
PR.IX Photo-reconnaissance aircraft. Photo-reconnaissance version of the B.IX, used by the RAF and US 8th Air Force for meteorological reconnaissance over Europe before all major day and night bombing raids.
FB.X Proposed fighter bomber as FB.VI but with Merlin 67 engines. Never built.
NF.XII Fighter. Four cannon fighter developed from the NF.II, but with the four machine guns and the A.I. Mk. 5 radar being replaced by centimetric A.I. Mk 8 radar in nose radome. Merlin 21 and 23 engines. The 'standard wing' was not fitted.
NF.XIII Fighter.Four cannon fighter developed from the FB.VI. The four machine guns in the nose replaced by A.I Mk 8 radar in 'bull' nose. Merlin 21 and 23 engines.
NF.XIV Proposed fighter as NF.XIII but with high altitude Merlin 67 engines. Never built.
NF.XV Fighter. Special high altitude fighter developed in only seven days from pressure cabin prototype PR.VIII with extended wing tips, reduced fuel tankage and four .303in machine guns in a blister under the fuselage. Only five built.
B.XVI Bomber. Pressure cabin development of the B.IX with Merlin 72, 73, 76 and 77 engines able to carry 3000lb bombs. All were converted in 1944 to take 4000lb bomb in the fuselage and two 50 gallon wing drop tanks or 100 gallon drop tanks with four 500lb bombs.
PR.XVI Photo-reconnaissance aircraft. Photo-reconnaissance version of the B.XVI. Three extra fuel tanks fitted in the bomb bay. In addition to the cameras carried in the fuselage, one F.52 camera could be carried in each drop tank.
NF.XVII Fighter. Fighter developed from and similar to the NF.XII with American A.I. Mk 10 radar.
FB.XVIII Fighter bomber. The 'Tsetse'. Developed from the FB.VI with the nose modified to take a six-pounder (57mm) anti-tank gun instead of the four 20mm cannon. The six-pounder could fire 25 shells in 20 seconds. Merlin 25 engines. Used mainly by Coastal Command against submarines and shipping.
NF.XIX Fighter. Developed from and similar to the NF.XIII, but with Merlin 25 engines and able to take either British or American radar sets. In 1948-49, 45 were overhauled and fitted with four blade airscrews and supplied to the Royal Swedish Air Force who designated the aircraft the J.30.
B.XX Bomber. Second batch of Canadian production. Similar to the B.VII but with Canadian-American equipment and Packard Merlin 31 or 33 engines. Forty fitted with cameras were supplied to the USAAF (who designated them the F.8) and were used for meteorological and operational reconnaissance.
FB.21 Fighter bomber. Canadian built fighter bomber corresponding to the FB.VI otherwise as the B.XX. Only three were built, one with Packard Merlin 33 engines, the other two with Packard Merlin 31 engines. Replaced by the FB.26.
T.22 Trainer. Canadian built unarmed dual control trainer based on the FB.21 with Packard Merlin 33 engines. Only six were built. Similar to the T.III.
B.23 Bomber. Canadian built high altitude bomber. A development of the B.XX to make use of Packard Merlin 69 engines. Not proceeded with because sufficient supplies of Packard Merlin 225 (single stage, supercharged) engines became available.
FB.24 Fighter bomber. Canadian built high altitude fighter bomber developed from the FB.21 with Packard Merlin 301 (two stage, supercharged) engines. Only one built.
B.25 Bomber. Canadian built bomber identical to the B.XX but with Packard Merlin 225 engines.
FB.26 Fighter bomber. Canadian built fighter bomber developed from the FB.VI but with Packard Merlin 225 engines and Canadian-American equipment.
T.27 Trainer. Canadian built trainer developed from the T.22 with Packard Merlin 225 engines.
FB.28 Model number allocated to Canada, not taken up.
B or FB.29 Dual control trainer development of FB.26, Packard Merlin 225 engines. All were conversions from FB.26's.
NF.30 Fighter. Developed from the NF.XIX with high altitude Merlin 72, 76 and 113 engines.
Mk.31 Reserved for a Packard Merlin engined night fighter variant which was never built.
PR.32 Photo-reconnaissance aircraft. Specially lightened version of the PR.XVI with Merlin 113 and 114 (two stage, supercharged) engines and extended wing tips for high altitude operation.
TF/TR.33 Fleet Air Arm version developed from the FB.VI for multi role operation. Merlin 25 engines, manually operated folding wings and pneumatic landing gear with smaller wheels.
PR.34 Photo-reconnaissance aircraft. Very long range development of the PR.XVI with Merlin 113 and 114 engines. This was the fastest version of the Mosquito managing 422mph in level flight.
PR.34a Modernised version of the PR.34 with a revised cockpit layout.
B.35 Bomber. Similar to the B.XVI except for Merlin 114 engines in early versions, Merlin 114A engines in later versions. 274 built, including 65 by Airspeed Ltd.
PR.35 Photo-reconnaissance aircraft. Ten converted from B.35's.
TT.35 Target tower. Modified from B.35.
NF.36 Fighter. High powered development of the NF.30 with Merlin 113 engines and American A.I. MK 10 radar. Armament consisted of four 20mm cannon.
TR/TF.37 Torpedo fighter/bomber. Similar to the T.33 with British ASV Mk. 13B radar fitted in a 'bull' nose.
NF.38 Fighter. Similar to the NF.36, fitted with British A.I. Mk 9 radar. Merlin 113, 114, 113A or 114A engines.
TT.39 Target tower. Target tower converted from B.XVI.
FB.40 Fighter. First Australian built Mosquitos, based on the FB.VI with Hamilton Standard or Australian built De Havilland hydromatic propellers. The first 100 aircraft were built with Packard Merlin 31 engines, thereafter, Packard Merlin 33 engines.
PR.40 Photo-reconnaissance aircraft. Australian built conversion of the FB.40. Packard Merlin 31 engines.
PR.41 Photo-reconnaissance aircraft. Australian built, similar to the PR.40 but with extra radio gear and Packard Merlin 69 (two stage, supercharged) engines.
FB.42 Fighter Bomber. Australian built adaptation of an FB.40 to take the Packard Merlin 69 engine. After testing, the project was dropped and the aircraft became the prototype for the PR.41.
T.43 Trainer. Australian built conversion of the FB.40 and almost identical except for the addition of dual controls and dual elevator trim tabs.
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Both look incredibly versatile, but my vote goes to the Ju 88.
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The word "versatililty" may be used incorrectly here, i.e. its definition is competent in many things. How can an aircraft be defined as competent in many things if it has 30+ different variants? I'd say a plane with the smallest amount of variants would be the most versatile.
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That's an interesting point.
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Karnak must work with statistics a lot... Select only the roles the Mosquito can fill and compare with other aircraft, regardless of other roles that other aircraft can fill. Declare Mosquito the winner.
Yep. :) Particularly funny was the vague "strike aircraft"-category" which conviniently forgets the fact that Ju-88 was a dive bomber fitted with dive brakes and very accurate dive bomb sight.
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If we consider Smoe's argument for a moment, which WWII aircraft was the most versatile with little or no modification? I think the Me 410 would be a strong contender with that multi-purpose bomb bay and huge number of field kits available.
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(http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Chino2004/Sampler/P38.jpg)
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Yep. :) Particularly funny was the vague "strike aircraft"-category" which conviniently forgets the fact that Ju-88 was a dive bomber fitted with dive brakes and very accurate dive bomb sight.
That is one of the reasons I said "Yes" to the Ju88 in that category. Your objection confuses me, honestly. I just listed the core tasks aircraft in WWII had to fill.
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If we consider Smoe's argument for a moment, which WWII aircraft was the most versatile with little or no modification? I think the Me 410 would be a strong contender with that multi-purpose bomb bay and huge number of field kits available.
Mossie 6. Me410 was crap in comparison.
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Your objection confuses me, honestly.
Mosquite wasn't a dedicated dive bomber, Ju-88 was. Both of them dropped bombs. So putting in a uniform "strike aircraft-category" completely forgets this fact. Ju-88 had airbrakes, dive bomb sight. Neither of which the Mosquito had. Personally, I don't care either way which plane you guys find the most versatile. I just commented on the methods of comparison.
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The P-38 was by far the dominant USAAF fighter in the PTO and it was the USAAF fighter in that theater that broke the IJAF's back and wiped the ground with the IJA, not the Jug or the Mustang.
ack-ack
Umm ... the F6-F was badass in the PTO ... 19:1 kill ratio along with it's ability for ground attack ... ranks it in the top IMHO.
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Umm ... the F6-F was badass in the PTO ... 19:1 kill ratio along with it's ability for ground attack ... ranks it in the top IMHO.
most the japanese pilots that knew anything about flying were dead by the time the hellcat showed up.
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most the japanese pilots that knew anything about flying were dead by the time the hellcat showed up.
LOL ... so all the good ones were dead by September 1 of 1943 ... too funny.
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LOL ... so all the good ones were dead by September 1 of 1943 ... too funny.
when did I say all?
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Mossie 6. Me410 was crap in comparison.
We're not discussing which aircraft performed best in each role, just which was the most versatile. You seem to be hopelessly in love with the Mossie, which is quite understandable; it is a beautiful and capable aircraft. :)
Could the Mosquito Mk. VI carry torpedoes? Could it dive-bomb? Could it carry an anti-tank cannon? (Me 410 could carry the BK 37 and BK 50) Could it carry a variety of gun packages?
Again we're not discussing performance, but versatility; and the Me 410 was certainly competitive enough to be successful in the various roles it was assigned.
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*sigh*
The VI didn't carry torpedoes, naval Mosquitos did post-war.
Mosquitos could and did dive-bomb, though it was not normal practice, and at high angles it was recommended to attack with wing-bombs only.
Of course it could carry an anti-tank cannon, though in practice the Molins was used vs. surface vessels and U-boats.
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Those were different versions... not the VI. Remember we're discussing the most versatile single aircraft version, not multiple versions.
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ehm...
(http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy329/Wildcat1995/P38.jpg)
(http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy329/Wildcat1995/lockheed-p-38-lightning-1.jpg)
(http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy329/Wildcat1995/Lockheed_P-38_Lightning_USAF.jpg)
i mean, seriously, it can do anything :aok
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Those were different versions... not the VI. Remember we're discussing the most versatile single aircraft version, not multiple versions.
Which version of the Ju 88 was able to carry both torps and an anti-tank gun then?
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I was talking about the Me 410, not the Ju 88. The standard A and B series could carry a torp using a special shackle replacing the wing bomb shackles. The BK 37 was mounted on a weapons pallet like all the other weapon packages, so any 410 could carry it in the bomb bay. The BK 50 required removing some of the fixed armament, so it may fall outside of the scope of this discussion.
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Umm ... the F6-F was badass in the PTO ... 19:1 kill ratio along with it's ability for ground attack ... ranks it in the top IMHO.
As far as I know, the Hellcat was USN, not USAAF. Of the fighters fielded by the USAAF in the PTO and CBI, the P-38 was the dominant fighter. It was also the USAAF fighter that broke IJAF's and IJN's back in the South West Pacific area of operation in the PTO.
I also totally agree the Hellcat was versatile as well, it was also referred to as a jack of all trades (like the Lightning) for a reason.
ack-ack
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Fair enough.
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As far as I know, the Hellcat was USN, not USAAF. Of the fighters fielded by the USAAF in the PTO and CBI, the P-38 was the dominant fighter. It was also the USAAF fighter that broke IJAF's and IJN's back in the South West Pacific area of operation in the PTO.
I also totally agree the Hellcat was versatile as well, it was also referred to as a jack of all trades (like the Lightning) for a reason.
ack-ack
I almost called you out Ack-Ack but you indeed said "USAAF". So I still agree that for the USAAF for the PTO, the Lightning was the most versatile.
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As far as I know, the Hellcat was USN, not USAAF. Of the fighters fielded by the USAAF in the PTO and CBI, the P-38 was the dominant fighter. It was also the USAAF fighter that broke IJAF's and IJN's back in the South West Pacific area of operation in the PTO.
I also totally agree the Hellcat was versatile as well, it was also referred to as a jack of all trades (like the Lightning) for a reason.
ack-ack
Your right ... the F6-F (Navy), along with the F4-U (Marines), were the primary USN fighter planes in the PTO starting in 1943. Prior to that, the F4F and the Buffalo were the primary USN fighters.
The F4F enjoyed a 6.9:1 kill ratio over the entire war ... not bad at all ... :D
The Hellcat was the most successful aircraft in naval history, destroying 5,271 aircraft while in service with the U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps (5,163 in the Pacific and eight more during the invasion of Southern France, plus 52 with the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm during World War II).
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If discussing versatility do not forget that the F6F was also the USN's prime night fighter equipped with radar.
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Mosquite wasn't a dedicated dive bomber, Ju-88 was. Both of them dropped bombs. So putting in a uniform "strike aircraft-category" completely forgets this fact. Ju-88 had airbrakes, dive bomb sight. Neither of which the Mosquito had. Personally, I don't care either way which plane you guys find the most versatile. I just commented on the methods of comparison.
Were they not few, and basically modified on the assembly line, with little popularity with the factory?
The Mossie had the higher top speed anyway, so it would, as many other "fighters" dive-bomb without having to be modified....
BTW, did the JU88 do photo recce over areas with fast enemy fighters? Don't think so....
Nor would they go for low strafing and rocketing.
I forgot Doodle bug hunting BTW. The Mossies even did that at night...
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If discussing versatility do not forget that the F6F was also the USN's prime night fighter equipped with radar.
Yep, and the F6F5-N also performed pathfinder missions during nightime ground attack missions. We also can't leave out that is also was used as a photo/recce aircraft.
ack-ack
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This is an interesting topic and some of my favourite planes have all been mentioned!
As much as I luv the mossie I'd give the nod to the Ju88 as most versatial but really it's like comparing apples and oranges. The Mossie was a plane no one asked for and was made by furniture and piano makers... :lol The JU was a plane everyone wanted and the design requirements were so vast that they were almost unaccomplishable.
But as versatile as the JU was there was no way a piano maker could have assembled it!... :devil
:salute
PS: Die Hard,I would like you to show me just 1 example of the Me410 ever using a torp,sure they made some prototype,trials but I have never seen or heard of them being used operationally.Besides who needs torps when you can have that BK5 barking instead. :bolt:
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PBY
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PBY
ah ha! at least someone agrees with me :P
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P47 Thunderbolt...started its career as a Fighter/Bomber Escort (which it continued throughout) and evloved into one of the best Ground Attack Aircraft of the Second World War.
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F4U-s. Mossy is a fine pick too but since F4U's could operate off carriers, I give them the nod. :aok
F4's operated in the Pacific Theatre...as far as I know exclusively...so I think we would possibly have to either break this topic down into the Western Europe/Middle East/Italy and Pacific Theatre categories. Anyone else?
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F4's operated in the Pacific Theatre...as far as I know exclusively...so I think we would possibly have to either break this topic down into the Western Europe/Middle East/Italy and Pacific Theatre categories. Anyone else?
i still say the 190. did it all :aok
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F4's operated in the Pacific Theatre...as far as I know exclusively...so I think we would possibly have to either break this topic down into the Western Europe/Middle East/Italy and Pacific Theatre categories. Anyone else?
I think only in US Navy and Marine service was the Corsair exclusive to the Pacific. The British Fleet Air Arm flew Corsairs in both the Pacific and Europe. One Fleet Arm Corsair (Corsair JT404 from 1841 squadron) flown by Lt Mattholie when he was forced to do an emergency landing in Norway and was captured by the Germans. The Germans then transported to Narvik, Norway and its fate isn't known after that.
ack-ack
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F4's operated in the Pacific Theatre...as far as I know exclusively...so I think we would possibly have to either break this topic down into the Western Europe/Middle East/Italy and Pacific Theatre categories. Anyone else?
the P-38 fought on all fronts of the war except for Eastern Europe :aok
if were talking about in-game, its the P-38 hands-down. in what other plane can you take out the vh, deack, get a few town buildings, beat a few spits in a dogfight, and make it home with extra feul to spare?
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the P-38 fought on all fronts of the war except for Eastern Europe :aok
if were talking about in-game, its the P-38 hands-down. in what other plane can you take out the vh, deack, get a few town buildings, beat a few spits in a dogfight, and make it home with extra feul to spare?
While the P-38 didn't fight on the Eastern Front, it was flown. The Soviets received a few Lend-Lease P-38s for evaluation and one was used as an aerobatic show and VIP plane that would go from base to base putting on aerobatic displays. Can't find anything that tells what the final fates of these planes were.
ack-ack
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the P-38 fought on all fronts of the war except for Eastern Europe :aok
if were talking about in-game, its the P-38 hands-down. in what other plane can you take out the vh, deack, get a few town buildings, beat a few spits in a dogfight, and make it home with extra feul to spare?
A-20
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A-20 was a good bomber I don't really think it can dogfight that well or am I wrong ?
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A-20 was a good bomber I don't really think it can dogfight that well or am I wrong ?
against a B-25, its the best dogfighter in the world :aok
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A-20 was a good bomber I don't really think it can dogfight that well or am I wrong ?
Cobia is a dogfighting fool in a A20. He collects more scalps in that thing then a lot of spit drivers.
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Cobia is a dogfighting fool in a A20. He collects more scalps in that thing then a lot of spit drivers.
A-20 wasn't structurally able to fly upside down, or so I was told by an A-20 pilot.
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A-20 wasn't structurally able to fly upside down, or so I was told by an A-20 pilot.
There was a standing USAAF operational order not to fly the A-20 inverted, can't recall the technical reasons though.
ack-ack
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F4U
Land or carrier, day or night, Fighter-bomber-fighter/bomber. Served in both PTO and ETO and production continued well in to the fifties. It continued to fly in combat(in S. America) well in to the sixties.
In Korea it carried the same bomb load as many medium/heavy bombers did in WWII (5,000lbs). It shot down a Mig 15 in Korea as well. Flew in Indochina(Vietnam) with the French and continued carrier service with them until the early sixties if memory serves me right.
I can't think of a plane that can claim so much.
:airplane:
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Mossie
...High level bomber
...Insane low level bomber ops
...Precision attack
...Day fighter
...Night fighter
...Anti shipping
...V1 interception
...Sneaky beaky ops with radio operator crammed into the fuselage
...Pathfinder
...Photo recon
...Carrier ops (post war)
...Transport (BOAC post war)
...European, Med and Pacific
...Flew from 41--->56
...During its 15 years it flew with around 20 different Air Forces.
...Final Combat was seen with the IAF in 1956 during the Suez crisis.
Still hold three records
...1st ever carrier landing by twin engined aircraft.
...Highest ever night time photograph
...F for Freddie flew most combat ops of ANY allied aircraft in WWII
Quite an achievement for a plane built by piano makers (according to Herman anyway)
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Mossie
...Transport (BOAC post war)
...European, Med and Pacific
BOAC actually flew people from Sweden to the U.K. during the war, including physicist Niels Bohr.
Don't forget CBI as well as the other theatres.
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Still hold three records
...1st ever carrier landing by twin engined aircraft.
...Highest ever night time photograph
...F for Freddie flew most combat ops of ANY allied aircraft in WWII
I doubt the 1st and 3rd recored will ever be broken.
Quite an achievement for a plane built by piano makers (according to Herman anyway)
Don't forget the furniture industry.
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i took the a20 up its nice :)
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I doubt the 1st and 3rd recored will ever be broken.
i hope thats a joke...
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i hope thats a joke...
Few people know that the first record was broken when the time warp happened, as documented in the historic movie, The Final Countdown.
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LOL!!! Final Countdown. Great movie, F-14's shooting down Zeke's!!!!!!
Yes, if we only had a Nuke carrier battlegroup off the coast of Hawaii, Pearl Harbor would have totally turned out different!!!!
:banana: :bolt: