Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: groundfeeder on April 20, 2010, 08:41:50 AM
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Well just wondering how many out there use the stall limiter?
I have been playing around with it for awhile, and have noticed no REAL increase in turns, but a big increase in the amount of impact craters my plane makes.
The P-38 can do some wild things with it off, and just was wondering how many of you out there use it, don't, and how you use it, and what manuevers can you do with it off. :joystick:
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I don't use Combat Trim or the Stall Limiter, as soon as I realized they were on when I started playing the game I turned them off. So as to what maneuvers are possible with it and without it I wouldn't know, I don't think they had this feature in the war.
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I used stall limiter for years. Didn't keep me from having fun or flying more than adequately. Now, I don't use it.
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keep forgetting the combat trim... i have noticed a slight difference with that off, seems to be a p-factor thing anyway
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Well just wondering how many out there use the stall limiter?
I have been playing around with it for awhile, and have noticed no REAL increase in turns, but a big increase in the amount of impact craters my plane makes.
The P-38 can do some wild things with it off, and just was wondering how many of you out there use it, don't, and how you use it, and what manuevers can you do with it off. :joystick:
YOU may not notice an increase in turns, but trust me, there IS one. When I'm working with people in the TA on merges, it takes me only SECONDS to realize they're flying with the stall limiter enabled.
Impact craters- yup, you'll notice an increase in those initially. That's because you're now able to fly much closer to the "edge" than you've been able to before. More precise control is possible, and required... There's a price to pay for better performance.
I'd recommend going out and getting yourself into some wicked stalls/spins right off the bat. Get 10K alt, and get yourself in trouble. Then get out of trouble, and repeat it. Try getting yourself into worse trouble, and do it closer to the deck.
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I cut my AH teeth before the stall limiter and combat trim were introduced so I don't have the experience of learning to make the transition myself but in my opinion I would turn stall limiter off as soon as your comfortable. It will be ugly for a little while but being able to maneuver your aircraft on the edge of the stall is an invaluable skill to learn, that's where many fights are won and lost.
Combat trim is a slightly different matter, and since you mentioned the P-38 I'll say that most P-38 pilots will tell ya to just leave it off. However I know a couple very accomplished P-38 guys who do just fine with it on. Personally I don't like it in the 38 I feel that it makes it a little harder to control the plane at low speeds and nose high. I just manually control the elevator (about the only trim surface you need to mess with in the 38 - unless you have an engine out) or if it get's out of whack I'll toggle CT quickly on and off to get everything realigned.
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The P-38 can do some wild things with it off
I had a P38 student (before I was an official trainer) about 2 years ago tell me, "I have stall limiter on and I have no trouble getting kills." I made a bet with him I could beat him 3 for 3 without ever pulling more than 3 Gs, a bet I handily won.
You'll have trouble experiencing the finer points of the P38 at stall speeds (when sometimes you WANT the plane to depart) with stall limiter on.
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Impact craters- yup, you'll notice an increase in those initially. That's because you're now able to fly much closer to the "edge" than you've been able to before. More precise control is possible, and required... There's a price to pay for better performance.
He's saying he impacts more with SL on because he can't pull the AOA to get himself out of a dive in time.
Stall limiter simply doesn't allow you to pull the angles you need or want. There are times when higher angles of attack are helpful and vital to your success. Flying with SL on is just suicide against anybody with it off.
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While the Stall Limiter does limit your angle of attack to prevent you from being able to enter into an accelerated stall, as a tool to help lessen the steep learning curve, it's a boon for new and inexperienced players alike.
When I'm helping out new players, I do recommend they keep it enabled as they are learning basic flight maneuvers. Once the player is comfortable with basic flight and the flight model, then I recommend they turn it off and keep it off.
As for Combat Trim, like Soulyss said, it's a different matter better off left for a different thread so players don't confuse CT and its use with the Stall Limiter.
ack-ack
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I initially turned it off after I kept crashing myt plane when dive bombing and not being able to pull out, and Ive left it off since
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While the Stall Limiter does limit your angle of attack to prevent you from being able to enter into an accelerated stall, as a tool to help lessen the steep learning curve, it's a boon for new and inexperienced players alike.
When I'm helping out new players, I do recommend they keep it enabled as they are learning basic flight maneuvers. Once the player is comfortable with basic flight and the flight model, then I recommend they turn it off and keep it off.
As for Combat Trim, like Soulyss said, it's a different matter better off left for a different thread so players don't confuse CT and its use with the Stall Limiter.
ack-ack
Excellent advice! depending on a players abilities it certainly is worth flying with the Stall limiter on until you have the basics covered. Being able to land and takeoff is often taken for granted by some of the more experienced players,but from my observations most new players simply dont have the control over the aircraft to fly with it off!
Many times I've suggested a player turn on Stall limiter to help them get a maneuver down,then suggest they turn it off and practice the move again.I find this speeds up the learning curve somewhat,thats said I'd advise any player to turn it off as soon as they feel comfortable as it does hamper the flight envelope considerably!
:salute
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I initially turned it off after I kept crashing myt plane when dive bombing and not being able to pull out, and Ive left it off since
The stall limiter will not prevent you from pulling out of a dive. What was preventing you from pulling out of a dive was overspeeding and getting into a state of compression from the high speed aerodynamic forces. Also, some planes controls stiffen more than others at high speed, like the Bf 109 series as well as the Zekes are two examples.
ack-ack
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Actually, Ack-Ack, gotta disagree with you on that.
Stall limiter, as much as it prevents you from pulling harsh AOA in turns, will also prevent you from pulling harsh AOA to get yourself out of a dive at the last second, as well.
It's like pulling out of a dive with 1 elevator missing with SL on.
Okay, maybe not that bad, but worse than without.
EDIT: I don't mean a terminal dive from 20k. Say you're split S-ing and breaking from a con, or in the middle of a dogfight, find yourself nose down with very little alt left, and need to pull up. SL will kill ya.
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Actually, Ack-Ack, gotta disagree with you on that.
Stall limiter, as much as it prevents you from pulling harsh AOA in turns, will also prevent you from pulling harsh AOA to get yourself out of a dive at the last second, as well.
It's like pulling out of a dive with 1 elevator missing with SL on.
Okay, maybe not that bad, but worse than without.
EDIT: I don't mean a terminal dive from 20k. Say you're split S-ing and breaking from a con, or in the middle of a dogfight, find yourself nose down with very little alt left, and need to pull up. SL will kill ya.
Did few tests this afternoon.
Test #1, without stall limiter on, climbed to 15,000ft and leveled out until speed reached 300mph IAS. I then dove vertically and when I hit approximately 425mph IAS, I pulled back on the stick and pulled out of the dive. Controls were sluggish due to the high speed aerodynamic forces but I was easily able to recover from the dive.
Test #2, same setup but with stall limiter on and again, was able to pull out of the dive at 425mph IAS without any difficulties other than experiencing sluggish controls due the same reasons as Test #1.
Test #3, I climbed up to 25,000ft and leveled out until I was 300mph IAS and again dove vertically. Started to enter into a compressability state around 21,000ft when I was reaching close to 400mph IAS and wasn't able to pull out of the dive until I was below 15,000ft and around 450mph IAS. Had to use some positive elevator trim to help recover and had tunnel vision on recovery.
Test #4, set up the same as Test #3, though with Stall Limiter enabled. Entered into compressability around the same altitude and speed as Test #3 and recovery was almost the same though it did take a couple of more notches of positive elevator trim to recover but no black out and recovery was about 800ft more than Test #3.
Test #5, repeat of Test #3's set up but this time I didn't allow myself to enter into a compressability state. Used throttle and rudders to keep speed in check and never exceeded 350mph IAS, recovered from dive at 18,300ft.
Test #6, same as Test #5 but this time with Stall Limiter and again, kept speed in check using throttle and rudders in dive and didn't exceed 350mph IAS. Recovery was the same as Test #5, 18,300ft.
It only seems that Stall Limiter will have an affect on dive recovery if you allow yourself to overspeed in the dive and enter into a state of compression or compressability. If you keep your speed in check and do not enter into a state of compression or compressability, the Stall Limiter does not have a negative affect in dive recovery.
ack-ack
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ok AKAK what about pulling out at low alt with p38L, whicn has dive flaps, and Ive never had troublw with compression
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ok AKAK what about pulling out at low alt with p38L, whicn has dive flaps, and Ive never had troublw with compression
Again, I am willing to bet that each one of your augers is due to you overspeeding and not being able to recover in time before you hit the ground. I am also willing to bet that you're not deploying the dive flaps correctly (should be deployed just before you enter the dive) which is causing them not to provide the proper lift.
And yes, you do have a problem with entering compression. I have films of you augering in a duel because you were too fast and couldn't pull up in time before you hit the ground.
ack-ack
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auguring isn't one of my problems....with the stall limiter off at altitude. i don't seem to have a problem with it, as a matter of fact, the stall limiter on seems to screw up my wingovers and hammerhead type of maneuvers.
One tactic i did notice it wont help with is if i am trying to outclimb an opponent and at a high AOA, and hanging it on the prop for as long as i can, then snapping toward the p-factor to six the enemy, with the stall limiter on it just drifts off slowly and "wobbles" a bit.
My issue is when low to the ground in a high G turn fight. The nose of the aircraft tends to drop off in a series of dips, thus slowing my turn rate.
With the stall limiter on, the nose will dip slightly, with no significant loss in turn performance (most evident in spits) I also have noticed in recent days, as i have payed more attention, that i can tell if the person i am chasing has the stall limiter on or off when i witness the same "dips" as i had previously experienced.
In two cases i was easily able to shoot them down (both cases where in similar aircraft IE spit 8 on spit 8 etc.)
I have no idea what the skill level of the pilots where, but the end result was a little telling.
Are there any specialty maneuvers used low to the deck that anyone employs?
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auguring isn't one of my problems....with the stall limiter off at altitude. i don't seem to have a problem with it, as a matter of fact, the stall limiter on seems to screw up my wingovers and hammerhead type of maneuvers.
Those maneuvers require you to ridge the edge, which the Stall Limiter prevents you from doing. Disabling will allow you to perform those maneuvers to their fullest extent that you wouldn't be able to achieve with the Stall Limiter enabled.
One tactic i did notice it wont help with is if i am trying to outclimb an opponent and at a high AOA, and hanging it on the prop for as long as i can, then snapping toward the p-factor to six the enemy, with the stall limiter on it just drifts off slowly and "wobbles" a bit.
Again, see the above explanation as it also applies here.
My issue is when low to the ground in a high G turn fight. The nose of the aircraft tends to drop off in a series of dips, thus slowing my turn rate.
See the above explanations again. I hope you're starting to see the pattern...the Stall Limiter is not allowing you to maximum out of your plane because it's not letting you fly on the edge of the envelope.
With the stall limiter on, the nose will dip slightly, with no significant loss in turn performance (most evident in spits) I also have noticed in recent days, as i have payed more attention, that i can tell if the person i am chasing has the stall limiter on or off when i witness the same "dips" as i had previously experienced.
In two cases i was easily able to shoot them down (both cases where in similar aircraft IE spit 8 on spit 8 etc.)
The Stall Limiter is a good learning tool and that's it. Beyond helping new and inexperienced players get a feel and understanding of the flight model, it's useless. With it enabled, you will always be at a disadvantage against someone that doesn't enabled as they'll be able to achieve a higher AoA and ride the edge of the stall which you won't be able to do with the Stall Limiter enabled.
Are there any specialty maneuvers used low to the deck that anyone employs?
There are a number of maneuvers you can use in a fight on the deck depending on the situation.
ack-ack
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I've been in AH for about 3 weeks now, over from FA. I turned off stall limiter day 3. When you're flying a zeke on base defense, most of the time you'll be flying on the edge of a stall. I tried with limiter on and to me it felt like i was flying a b17 rather than a zero. Just my 2 cents.