Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: wgmount on April 20, 2010, 08:59:50 PM
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when did the zeke start being able to dive turn and pull lead at 500 mph?
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Maybe it was the day you forgot to start filming?
No offense, just trying to be funny. :D
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when did the zeke start being able to dive turn and pull lead at 500 mph?
you forgot one hit kills with bullets that barely touch your plane while being pounded by full gun load of p38
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when did the zeke start being able to dive turn and pull lead at 500 mph?
Going to need to see a film on this. Having fought a couple of Zekes last night in the MW arena, none of them were able to follow me in a dive nor any turn with me above 350mph IAS.
you forgot one hit kills with bullets that barely touch your plane while being pounded by full gun load of p38
Again, post the film. In the engagement I had with the Zekes (A6M5s), each one died with a single burst of .50s from my P-38.
ack-ack
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well, you're right I didn't film it but I wasn't expecting it. I mean a zeke diving from 15 k with a hog then at the bottom making a hard right and then a hard left well in excess of 450. I do admit i forgot to shift my stick back from mode 2 gv's to mode 1 airplanes but that zeke was doing stuff I had never seen before. I tried to go back and find him but the field was capped and I didn't make it.
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They've been quite adept at diving and high speed manuvers for a long time. It's been quite annoying. Only thing to do is force them to bleed off what E you can, and then you have some room to manuver.
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I satisfied my own curiosity. I got it up to 518 with combat trim on if he manually trimmed it probably a little faster.
(http://www.332nd.org/dogs/Flushed/ahss5.jpg)
(http://www.332nd.org/dogs/Flushed/ahss6.jpg)
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If you were in an A6M5b, then it isn't a bug as the A6M5b would have been able to reach those speeds as shown in the screenshots while in a dive. The dive speed restriction was 400knots (460.31mph TAS) and just because it had a dive speed restriction doesn't mean there was something mechanical that prevented it from exceeding those speeds in a dive. It was just a safety restriction warning the pilot that beyond those speeds may cause things to go south for the pilot.
ack-ack
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I thought it was the control mechanisms were so weak that the airflow over the wings would cause them to be less functional same as the bf109. I thought this would happen at around 400. oh well I've been wrong before.
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I thought it was the control mechanisms were so weak that the airflow over the wings would cause them to be less functional same as the bf109. I thought this would happen at around 400. oh well I've been wrong before.
At high speeds, around 325mph TAS or so, the controls do stiffen on the Zeke but without a film to see it happening it's hard to make any determination. There are just some things you can't tell from a screenshot.
But you may be right and there could be a bug. I found one with the P-38 after patch 4 that allowed it to dive way beyond it's dive limits without suffering any negative affects and be able to easily maneuver at speeds of 575mph+. Thankfully, it was fixed in Patch 5.
ack-ack
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I was in the DA a few days ago flying and F4U-1A. I had a zeke easily turn behind me at a distance of about 800 while at 424 MPH. I was diving and rolled left and pulled hard going in to full blackout for 2 seconds then eased the stick back(I didn't lose control) and the zeke was right there with me.
I've complained about the zeke before. Over 300-350 the controls are supposed to stiffen because of the general design (airflow) and there is no hydraulic assist for the pilot. People are just not strong enough to be able to pull the stick in real life......But in AH the pilot I've been told is modeled as "superhuman strong." The strength of U.S. planes vs. Jap planes throughout a good part of the war was the ability to dive away but, that is not handled well here.
I don't think I still have the film. I've complained about it before only to get the same answer about "pilot modeling" so I didn't bother. I don't know if manual trim would help that much. Was the pilot of this zeke "pounding the K button?" If he did would that keep him behind me in the F4U's high speed turn?
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Noah the A6m has difficulty rolling right at high speeds. You went left.
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I was diving and rolled left and pulled hard going in to full blackout for 2 seconds then eased the stick back(I didn't lose control) and the zeke was right there with me.
a 2 second full blackout is really a significant time to be blacked out, especially when you do not know if the opponent was blacked out or not, if he did not black out he could have easily got inside your turn.......
* not taking into account the speeds at which you posted, 424 mph........ he possibly could have eased off on the G's once you initially blacked out and he was in the tunnel.....
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Tequila's got it right. Just because you black out at the bottom of the dive pulling hard, and particularly changing direction after doing it, the enemy might have changed trajectory in several ways to lessen the angles and their need to pull Gs. The ease we can put trim in might also account for it.
There's just no substitute, this is definitely the kind of thing that needs film to prove it.
Wiley.
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I did some testing with Wingmount last night and there is no bug,I climbed to 23k and dove to 520TAS and started into compression.A 2G pullout snapped both elevators off,there was some control stiffening above 350TAS as there should be.
If anything maybe the controls could use abit more stiffening above 400/450 TAS but nothing seemed much different from the Zeke in versions past.
:salute
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You can pull 9g's for 2 seconds and then ease back on the stick. The screen does go black for that 2 seconds but, the plane doesn't seem to go out of control. I've done it offline and in other fights. If you've only pulled for 2 seconds and let go you don't stay in a blackout, you come out immediately. It very much seems like you just can't see for the 2 seconds and you're not actually blacked out; you've actually kept control of the stick you just can't see where you're going.
Either way I was facing straight down, rolled 90degrees pulled that 2 seconds and when I eased back I was almost level going in the same direction that my nose was originally pointed in. In order for the zeke to follow me from 800 away and be in almost the same attitude he would have had to pull almost exactly the same. I realize there can be some "cutting the corner" but, at that speed it shouldn't even be close. Any way I don't have the stinkin film so it doesn't matter......
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Good Evening Noah,
just to be clear, I am not trying to argue or debate your experience. I am only trying to see and explain it in a more simple way
You can pull 9g's for 2 seconds and then ease back on the stick. The screen does go black for that 2 seconds but, the plane doesn't seem to go out of control. I've done it offline and in other fights. If you've only pulled for 2 seconds and let go you don't stay in a blackout, you come out immediately. It very much seems like you just can't see for the 2 seconds and you're not actually blacked out; you've actually kept control of the stick you just can't see where you're going.
I too would doubt that you would "lose control" but you would "lose precise stick/controls movement" while in a 2 second blackout, meaning you would actually not being turning as hard as you think you were, once you blackout even for 1 second, your stick input lessens to whatit was right near the end of the tunnel vision to fill blackout, the longer the blackout the worser the outcome....
Either way I was facing straight down, rolled 90degrees pulled that 2 seconds and when I eased back I was almost level going in the same direction that my nose was originally pointed in. In order for the zeke to follow me from 800 away and be in almost the same attitude he would have had to pull almost exactly the same. I realize there can be some "cutting the corner" but, at that speed it shouldn't even be close. Any way I don't have the stinkin film so it doesn't matter......
I can not invision you was going in the same direction, from the way you described initially going nosefacing straight down, rolling 90 degrees then pulling a 2nd blackout and coming out of the blackout and facing the same way you was originally pointed.... with this description, it shows that you did not have the control over the plane you thought you had, unless you got some of the sequence in reverse order or mixed up
I would love to try and help you with this, but as you posted..... you have no film :-/
try filiming it, review it and if it happens to be what you think you had done, and have described I would like to look at the film, Sir...
just trying to help is all... :salute
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I understand TC and really do appreciate the help.
When I said still going the same way in the fight I meant that my nose was pointing in the direction I intended and the F4U still seemed to be turning as hard as I thought it would. This I had done offline in the past and it seemed to work as I thought when I had tried it and filmed it offline. If I did that offline there probably isnt anyway for someone else to know exactly when I was blacked out or not.....
Any way thanks again.
:salute
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I don't see anything abnormal about the zekes lately either.
Noah, to be honest, it sounds like you did about the worst thing you could do in that situation. The zeke has more trouble as speed builds, and is much more at home if you slow the fight down. Pulling hard G's (like you did) slows the fight down.
I imagine the zeke was unable to pull with you and mimic the moves, as you mentioned you thought he must have done. He was probably unable to do any serious maneuvering at all at that speed. With you pulling hard g's in front of him (and slowing down in the process), you put the fight into his realm...
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Mtnman,I take your word for it, I trust your judgement as well as TC(and others). You've been a great help with teaching me the rope for killing zeke's.
I guess when it comes to killing zeke's or some other fighters(109's?) that don't turn or roll that well at high speeds I haven't learned how to take advantage of that in the F4U. I know others do it easily but it's a skill I have not yet grasped.
Perhaps this is turning in to a different thread? I didn't mean to "hijack" it.
:salute
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Noah after flying the A6M in the AVA this week I couldn't do any High speed tight turns. Noticed the same when fighting them, if i could get them to dive after me and follow me back up they couldn't turn with me if they tried to keep the massive amount of E.
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Mtnman,I take your word for it, I trust your judgement as well as TC(and others). You've been a great help with teaching me the rope for killing zeke's.
I guess when it comes to killing zeke's or some other fighters(109's?) that don't turn or roll that well at high speeds I haven't learned how to take advantage of that in the F4U. I know others do it easily but it's a skill I have not yet grasped.
Perhaps this is turning in to a different thread? I didn't mean to "hijack" it.
:salute
If you feel like it's something you'd like to discuss in depth, you could just start a new thread...
I don't want to get carried away in this one.
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I did some testing with Wingmount last night and there is no bug,I climbed to 23k and dove to 520TAS and started into compression.A 2G pullout snapped both elevators off,there was some control stiffening above 350TAS as there should be.
If anything maybe the controls could use abit more stiffening above 400/450 TAS but nothing seemed much different from the Zeke in versions past.
:salute
Yep, I shed parts at 550 IAS both ailerons from 17k. I just wanted to replicate what I saw in the MA. My original contention was the A6M had weak control inputs at speeds of around 450 IAS due to airflow over the wings. My reasoning was reading descriptions of the a6m5 from this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Aircraft-Profile-Mitsubishi-%60Zero-Sen%60-%60Zeke/dp/B000HESS76/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1272265734&sr=8-1-fkmr0
and this statement:
In the pursuit of better combat capability (especially a higher diving speed), the 904th Reisen (an A6M3) was converted as a prototype for what was to become the A6M5 series. This project was supervised by engineer Mijiro Takahashi, who had taken over development of the Zero from Jiro Horikoshi so that the latter could concentrate on the J2M Raiden interceptor. The converted aircraft was fitted with a new set of wings with heavier gauge skin and with redesigned, non-folding rounded wingtips. The wingspan was reduced to 36 feet 1 1/16 inches and wing area to 229.3 square feet. The standard A6M3 armament of two 20-mm cannon and two 7.7-mm machine guns was retained, as were the two wing tanks and the Sakae 21 engine. However, new individual exhaust stacks were fitted to the cylinder heads, which added some residual thrust.
The first A6M5 flew in August of 1943. In spite of an increase in all-up weight of 440 pounds, the A6M5 was faster than the A6M3 Model 32, and could reach a maximum level speed of 351 mph at 19,685 feet.
More important, it could now be dived at speeds of up to 410 mph.
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Wgmount,that 410 mph doesnt state whether it's TAS or IAS.
Did you happen to notice the IAS when you were at 17k doing over 500 TAS?
I bet it wasnt far off the 410 stated in that article.
:salute
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Thanks again for all your help guys. I'm sure the model is ok.....I'm probably way off for some reason.
I'm going to fly the zeke and maybe the 109 offline using trails and compare them to the F4U at high speed turns maybe I can find something that makes better sense to me. All I'm hoping for is to see an opportunity to roll and pull to the side and hopefully up and over them as they continue down. Apparently this is what everyone else does that's able to get them to dive with them to well into the 400's.
If I'm wrong I'll find out soon enough!!! LOL
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Yep, I shed parts at 550 IAS both ailerons from 17k. I just wanted to replicate what I saw in the MA. My original contention was the A6M had weak control inputs at speeds of around 450 IAS due to airflow over the wings. My reasoning was reading descriptions of the a6m5 from this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Aircraft-Profile-Mitsubishi-%60Zero-Sen%60-%60Zeke/dp/B000HESS76/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1272265734&sr=8-1-fkmr0
and this statement:
In the pursuit of better combat capability (especially a higher diving speed), the 904th Reisen (an A6M3) was converted as a prototype for what was to become the A6M5 series. This project was supervised by engineer Mijiro Takahashi, who had taken over development of the Zero from Jiro Horikoshi so that the latter could concentrate on the J2M Raiden interceptor. The converted aircraft was fitted with a new set of wings with heavier gauge skin and with redesigned, non-folding rounded wingtips. The wingspan was reduced to 36 feet 1 1/16 inches and wing area to 229.3 square feet. The standard A6M3 armament of two 20-mm cannon and two 7.7-mm machine guns was retained, as were the two wing tanks and the Sakae 21 engine. However, new individual exhaust stacks were fitted to the cylinder heads, which added some residual thrust.
The first A6M5 flew in August of 1943. In spite of an increase in all-up weight of 440 pounds, the A6M5 was faster than the A6M3 Model 32, and could reach a maximum level speed of 351 mph at 19,685 feet.
More important, it could now be dived at speeds of up to 410 mph.
The dive speed restriction for the A6M5 was 400knots (460.31mph TAS), as I mentioned in one of my previous posts in this thread.
ack-ack
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You also have to realize that a plane going slower than you can actually gain distance on you by simply cutting off your angles. Two quick sketches to illustrate my point:
(http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/angle1.jpg)
(http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/angle2.jpg)
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All I'm hoping for is to see an opportunity to roll and pull to the side and hopefully up and over them as they continue down. Apparently this is what everyone else does that's able to get them to dive with them to well into the 400's.
If I'm wrong I'll find out soon enough!!! LOL
Personally, I don't have a lot of luck with that on Zekes, unless I can really surprise them and get a nice clean shot. Too often though, they barely manage to evade my shot, and then I'm stuck slow with them.
That doesn't mean that isn't a good maneuver to use; I use it against a ton of planes, in a whole bunch of situations. I just don't use it for zekes (or hurris).
For zekes (and hurris), all I do if they're behind me is get/keep my speed up, and use my roll to roll right and pull just enough to not get shot. As they roll right, I do the same to the left. These are subtle moves, I'm nowhere near a "break". As a matter of fact, I don't want to get out from in front of him, I just want to keep him interested/following, but spoil his shot. Eventually, I'm looking to have about 1K separation, and be in level flight with him pursuing. Then, as the counter gives me a "+", and the icon clicks to 1.5, I start to gradually go up. All I'm doing is roping him, and I want to go gradually to force him to follow my flight path, with no option to "cut the corner".
If he follows me up, I rope him/kill him. If he doesn't, I roll over from the top and dive on him for an attack.
Nothing fancy. Honestly, as slow as the zekes and hurris are, I don't see them as much of a factor in an F4U. If you treat them this way, they're just fodder. The most dangerous aspect of this type of fight, is when they don't follow your rope, and then pull up for an HO as you dive in. For that matter, it's really about the only effective shot the zeke or hurri has against you. A second possibility would be a barrel roll defense-type maneuver and a shot as you go by, but that's really easy for you to avoid as long as you watch for it, and don't pull hard for a shot.
Watch for that (the vertical HO)- it means the fight is about over... As soon as you see them pull up, roll 90 degrees left or right, and pull up, pretty dang hard. The roll spoils their shot. The only way for them to aim is to use rudder, which spoils their zoom... As you pull up, re-acquire them in your rear right or left view, and just before they stall, roll in and kill them. They'll be stalled and tipping over as you shoot. You've just roped him, and he set it up for you by pulling for the vertical HO...
There's not much a zeke or hurri can do to an F4U, as long as you keep the fight smooth and fast. Obviously, as you rope you'll be slow, but if you do it right, you'll be safe, and transitioning to a nose-down speed-building phase. There's no sense in "forcing" the fight with any fancy moves. Fighting those two planes is an exercise in patience. Set up a good shot. If you don't have one, set up another. The zeke can't get away, and he can't force you to do much of anything...
About the only time I see a zeke as a legitimate "threat" is if they're high, and I'm busy in a fight. 1v1 is no issue, but they're dangerous if they can sneak up on you while your busy. If they do that, you're in the situation I described at the beginning of the post...
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Wgmount,that 410 mph doesnt state whether it's TAS or IAS.
Did you happen to notice the IAS when you were at 17k doing over 500 TAS?
I bet it wasnt far off the 410 stated in that article.
:salute
I break it at 550 TAS every time. According to the E6b that is around 490 IAS. I don't know where they got the numbers for that book if it was from design notes or flight testing. I suppose those would be conservative from design notes and you could push it a little more. I would be interested where AKAK got his info of the 460mph if he'd care to state his source
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A6M Zero in Action, Shigeru Nohara, 1983
Aircraft of World War II, General Editor: Jim Winchester, 2004
Aircraft of WWII, Stewart Wilson, 1998
Seafire vs A6M Zero Pacific Theatre, Donald Nijboer, 2009
Take your pick. Each one mentions the dive speed restriction put in place for the A6M5. Now remember, just because there was a dive restriction doesn't mean the plane wasn't able to exceed that limitation. It was a warning to pilots not to exceed it as bad things could happen if they did.
ack-ack
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Good pilots will take the zeke nose down if they have some alt to play with. Lock it up then just barrel roll around it.
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flown the zeke 5b alot. never had a elevator lockup problem like the 109s have... zekes can easily hit a dive of 450-500TAS in game and be able to pull out... although if you want to stay above the enemy then dont try and dive with them cuz well...zeros dont like fast... you lose the engine and you cannot even glide in them, its like throwing paper to wind... diving for 5k at 450mph and you wont regain the lost 5k if in a fight.
edit:last line was just example only, do not know accurate accounts. but the zeke is an E bleeder... in fact go fast like other planes and you, in the end, lose so much E from drag you cannot do much
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I satisfied my own curiosity. I got it up to 518 with combat trim on if he manually trimmed it probably a little faster.
(http://www.332nd.org/dogs/Flushed/ahss5.jpg)
(http://www.332nd.org/dogs/Flushed/ahss6.jpg)
500+ in a Zeke? Creak...Creak...Creak... :D
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I flew it offline and dived towards the deck when I hit 528MPH (according to the video) the rudder tore off.......From now on my goal will be to make it dive too fast LOL :banana:
(not really)
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thats what i do, if i'm above 450 and their still in the dive I'll pull up. they either keep going and fall apart or come out of it very slow and you should be able to drop in behind them. Most know not to dive in like that but have had a few in the AVA follow.