Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: saggs on April 22, 2010, 01:46:22 PM
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So 4 races in and so fan Schumacher has been, well... not very Schumacher-like.
Now I'm not a rabid Schumacher fan, and I never expected him to come back and dominate like he did before, I never though he could take the Championship this year. But I did thing he would be in the top 5. I'd just like to see him competing with the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Button and Alonso. The more people in the fight near the end of the season the more exciting it is I think.
So what's up? Is he really just too old, has his reaction times slowed to much with age?
It seems, especially in Australia and China that his car just didn't have the grip, especially in China he was braking earlier into the corners and accelerating slower out of them, and it seemed like every time he put the power down coming off an apex he was fighting loads of over steer. So I kinda wanna think that the car just isn't set up the way he likes, BUT then again Rosberg has outclassed him in every qualifier with the same car. His only bright spot in China was when he blocked Hamilton, whose car was obviously faster and grippier, for 3 laps. Everyone else Hamilton rolled right past with no problems.
Anyway, I think it's gonna be Vettel or Button for the Championship this year. Vettel if his car is reliable throughout, Button if it's not.
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You don't come back into F1 after a 3 year sabbatical and win regularly. Your skill set degrades and technology changes.
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I think it's a combination of factors. Three years out of the sport has definitely had an impact. Limited preseason testing, and no in season testing doesn't help either. It's also possible the car doesn't suit his driving style.
If your bored you can read through this 23 page thread:
http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=126500
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Completely different car. TC, aero, tires, etc.
Michael was very well suited to driving the old F1 cars. These new ones? Perhaps not so much - especially if he is combating throttle-on oversteer at track-out.
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If shummie came back and won right away what would that say about F1 being the premire motorsport!
Any athlete thats way from the "game" for more than 1 year is way behind the ball,like Mazz said,totally different cars,rules,tires and team.While last year the Brawn cars were exceptional,maybe too good..... this year Bernie didnt let them have the best of the best just to field a team.
The season is still young only 4 races do far and as lastyear showed,about mid year the teams that are on top will start to show their stuff.I dont consider the season officially started till the Canuk GP,but then I'm abit biased as I'm a Canuk...... :lol
:salute
PS: atleast this years racing is kind of exciting,I haven't seen this much passing since they had turbo and nonturbo cars running together!
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Completely different car. TC, aero, tires, etc.
Michael was very well suited to driving the old F1 cars. These new ones? Perhaps not so much - especially if he is combating throttle-on oversteer at track-out.
He definitely was having trouble getting drive out of the corners in China. And Brundle was saying that he had been rougher on his tires all weekend then Rosberg. I didn't think the no TC would effect him much though, after all he won in 2000-01 when TC was banned. He won in 95-97 too, but I can't remember if TC was allowed then or not, didn't follow F1 back then.
I'd bet it has more to do with the aero which has changed a lot on 3 years. Plus he's just older, as the brain ages those synapses deteriorate and reaction times slow, it's just a fact of life even the best can't escape.
Looks like this season might be a two horse race between Red Bull and Mclaren, they seem to have the best cars, and drivers too. Hamilton was passing people on the outside of 2nd and 3rd gear corners, and Button made it with only 2 tire changes, those Mclarens obviously had more grip then any other car.
I think it's kind of amusing that the engine customer teams, Mclaren and Red Bull, are beating the pants off their respective engine factory teams, Mercedes and Renault. :lol
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China was certainly a setback as he was steadily improving and had set good times in practice. Its obvious He's struggling in the Mercedes and was having all kinds of traction problems in China.
But he placed higher in Bahrain than Button in his first race back, was forced to the back in Australia after Alonso took his wing off in the first corner, DNF in a good position due to a loose wheel nut in Malaysia so its a mixed result but he's hardly trundling around at the back.
Hopefully the new bits due for the Mercedes MGP W01 will help make it more competitive, as they are arguably the 4th fastest team behind Red Bull Racing, Maclaren, and Ferrari.
Tronsky
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No matter where he places in qualifying, or where he places at the end of the race.....
he has still won more races than all of them and he doesn't even have to finish.
Shumie is just going with the flow.
Todd
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(http://www.savonsanomat.fi/multimedia/dynamic/00032/kimi_tatska_32285b.jpg)
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I certainly hope Kimi will be back...
...but then again, if anyone could convince Mika to come out of retirement, if only for a season, to go against Michael again... oh man would I be glued to my television.
Sigh... the good old days.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/216/451948617_5235e03f69.jpg)
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I certainly hope Kimi will be back...
...but then again, if anyone could convince Mika to come out of retirement, if only for a season, to go against Michael again... oh man would I be glued to my television.
Sigh... the good old days.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/216/451948617_5235e03f69.jpg)
I miss Mika too. I heard that he still races rally in Finland once in a while. I saw an episode of Top Gear a while back where he gave James May a driving lesson in a Finnish cross country car, was very funny.
While your at it bring back Murray Walker too, that guy is the best commentator of any sport ever. Martin Brundle is good, but that other guy with him just bores me, and David Coulthard seems to have a whole different personality on this side of the microphone. He was much more entertaining as a driver.
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Yeah, thats a good one. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bmqdnx5R1U
10-second advertisement, but good quality. Worth it.
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Mazz I dont see Kimi coming back,Mika maybe but Kimi has his issues and I dont think a 1st line team would have him and I dont think he'd drive for an also ran team either.
Mika and shummie were fun,I'd of luved to seen them in the turbo days,when you could throw all the boost the engine could handle. That would have been great to see.
Things are so different now,folks forget there was a time when they used qualifying engines that only lasted maybe 20 laps,if you were lucky,or the active suspension,ground affects or the many different things that have gone the wayside.
I do wish they'd allow more displacement as F1 calls itself the premiere motorsport,they should have at least engines as big as some of the "lesser" forms of racing.
:salute
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Hell... they're talking about 4cyl turbo engine rumors now...
I just dont get it. F1 reached its peak in the late 90's. Since then it's done nothing but slowly deteriorate as the FIA sought to continuously reduce the McLaren/Ferrari dominance.
As for Kimi... I think he's got an awful lot of raw talent that was not properly cultivated. And, lets be honest, I dont think Ive ever seen a driver so plagued by DNF's resulting from technical failures. With a little bit of coaching he could have been (and still can be, I think) a top-3 pilot.
Alonso, for example, has nothing on Kimi in as far as pure, raw car control talent.
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Not having the best car on the grid might have something to do with it.
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For sure, the car is not the best on the grid. Considering that his teammate is second in the championship, I have a hard time blaming it all on the car.
That being said, take a look at this:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83149
From the article:
"The one he had got damaged during the first few races and we repaired it as best we could at the races. But now we are back at base we are going to re-introduce the test chassis and he will be using that in Barcelona."
If what they claim is true, that could be another factor leading to his lack of pace compared to his teammate. Of course the teams PR departments are masters of spin so I'll take it with a grain if salt.
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That's interesting.
I dunno - I cant take anything away from Michael. He was a truly remarkable driver. The best? Dunno - but you cant argue with his record. I still stand by Mika as the more talented driver. During that period, I think Mika would have won just as many races as Michael did had he raced for Ferrari.
Mort - thought you'd appreciate this - from a couple weekends ago. :cheers:
(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6893/43spsc115.jpg)
First time out with the new one; debating build-in-progress. Set up very well but needs a serious diet. Would love to get it down to about 2,600lbs but $$$ is, as always, the limiting factor. Continuously "upping" the brake pads as I chew through them. Pagid Yellow's are next... and they better have some friggen longevity for the price. :mad:
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Nice Mazz :aok
those are some nice buns on the back,what size??
I think 4 cyl. turbo would be a real treat,afterall thats what they used back then,the BMW turbo used old 2002 blocks!
As for Kimi,I agree his car control is second to none but his lack of selfcontrol is more the issues I'm talking about.
Was it his last season with M/C at Monaco when he crashed and then went aboard some Yacht to drown his sorrows?
I believe this is the reason Alonso got his seat but then again it's only rumours that have been going around take if for what it's worth.
I wonder what 2000cc's 20,000 rpm and 6 atmospheres of boost would put out??? :devil
:salute
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I wonder what 2000cc's 20,000 rpm and 6 atmospheres of boost would put out??? :devil
Most likely a rod... :devil
Shumie's problem is he's too old and he's been away for too long.
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Nice Mazz :aok
those are some nice buns on the back,what size??
225/285 F/R. Touch of understeer at the limit, especially in off-camber corners, but easily modulated with a slight breathe to bring the slip angle back to neutral. Debating 245's for the front but the current setup is safer... rear is about as planted as it can be barring any *really* stupid throttle snaps. Extra set of wheels and tires are somewhere in the Midwest in a UPS box and they are 225/265. We'll see how that feels. Either way, the suspension is set up very nicely. Tad more aggressive than RS specs and the corner balance job my guy did down here is astonishingly good.
Posted it in the squad forum a couple days ago because I was able to reserve #109 for the remainder of the season. :D
Most likely a rod... :devil
:rofl
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A good opinion piece on Shuey which covers not only his problems with the W01: http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/15445.html (http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/15445.html)
"Such was the hype surrounding Schumacher's return, expectations were impossibly high and now the knives are out. It seems those of us on the sidelines prize Schumacher's legacy more greatly that the man himself. "All he's going to do is damage what his achievements have been," Sir Stirling Moss told GP Week over the phone last week. "People are going to say he's passed it now, which he probably has. I can't understand why he's come back.""
Tronsky
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Good piece.
"He can drive around any imbalance," said Ross Brawn in James Allen's 2007 book Michael Schumacher: The Edge of Greatness
This stuck out for me.
The difference between the best driver in F1 and the worst driver in F1 is next to nothing. "Driving around any imbalance" just isn't good enough. The car and driver are either perfect or they lose 0.05 seconds per lap and finish 10th.
The margin for error just isn't big enough to accommodate these problems.
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Most likely a rod... :devil
Shumie's problem is he's too old and he's been away for too long.
Actually in the 80's Sik1 they were using this amount of boost,though the revs were in the 10to 12 thou range.The limit was 1500 cc back then and they put out the most HP of any F1 to date. I read they ran the BMW dyno past the 1200 hp limit and the engine still held together.
So any rumours of a move to turbo and 4 cylinder engines would be a welcome change in my books,I say give the driver adjustable boost and let them have at it! With no refueling and a limited amount of fuel on board to keep the cars incheck.
I still think it's far to early in the season to surmize about Shummie,ya he's older but I dont think thats the deciding factor,as Mazz has said the difference between 1st and 10th is all about the car.Although this years field has the biggest spread in times I've seen in years,remember when you were allowed 105% qualifying time? If you were more than 5% slower you just didnt make the field.
I think around race 10 to 12 we'll see the cream rise to the top,much like we say last year.
:salute
PS: Mazz,did you say tighter than an RS,must be a sweet ride....you drive it on the street too...dont you. :aok
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Morf I remember the cars of the '80's and they were wild too say the least. I also remember each team used their own fuel blend. Qualifying engines didn't live for more than ten minutes, and it wasn't uncommon for a single car to go through four engines a weekend. Not saying that they couldn't build it but I do think it would be very difficult to keep the current engine use rules and run the engine you describe.
As far as Shumie goes I hope he is successful in his venture back into F1. I'm a big fan and have been since his days with Benetton. I do believe though that he is past his prime and has spent too long out of an F1 car to make a successful comeback. The fact that he is consistently out performed by his teammate who is a decent driver but has never shown the level of skill Michael once was capable of seems to bear this out. As you point out from about mid-season on should really show which drivers, and teams are the real deal. Again I would gladly eat my words if it meant he could win another championship.
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I agree Sik,but then half the cylinders,half the cost,twice the amount of engines.... :devil
The engine rule was an atempt to cut costs as the FIA thought the well heeled teams would run away with things.
Personally I think it's a stupid rule but thats just me,I still think the 2.4 litre engines are just too small for "the premire motorsport" F2 uses 3 litres and it just doesnt make sense to me that F1 has smaller mills,now add a turbo and I'll quit complaining.... :rofl
:salute
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It would be nice if they could have some real fire breathing monsters again and were allowed to run how ever many engines they wished, or could afford. That being said it does appear to me that some of the lesser teams are able to compete a little better with the big guns. So maybe the measures the FIA have taken are working as they have intended. Can't believe I'm sticking up for the FIA. :confused:
A turbo'd 2.4L V8 that revs to 18k could be a wicked thing. :devil
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Looking like I may have to eat my words about Vettel and the championship.
Suddenly, the last 2 weekends Mark Webber has been the Red Bull to beat. He just took pole again in Monaco. :aok
Personally I would LOVE for Webber to get a championship, he's always been one of my favorite drivers, is more of a gentleman than many drivers, and in the past always seemed to be the unluckiest driver out there. Not to mention that this may be his last season. I'll definitely be rooting for him in Monaco.
Back on the topic of Schumacher I loved how the commentators, (not Brundle so much as that other guy) as soon as Schumacher does better in a race then Rosberg, start talking about favoritism and Schumacher taking over the team and imposing his will and bla bla bla, etc, etc.
Guy seems a bit :noid to me.
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From what I have heard they(Mercedes) are building the car more towards Shumie's driving style.
The way I see it it will probably take most of the season just for him to get back into the groove with the ban on testing in effect. That being said, only time will tell if he can regain his championship form.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RvLyYqgGqU&playnext_from=TL&videos=M6gr47k9TsI&feature=grec
these cars would be more fun, technology is slowly making all sports less entertaining imo.
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From what I have heard they(Mercedes) are building the car more towards Shumie's driving style.
The way I see it it will probably take most of the season just for him to get back into the groove with the ban on testing in effect. That being said, only time will tell if he can regain his championship form.
Could be true, Rosberg just out-qualified him in Monaco though so he's doing alright with the new car too. But really as far as the championship goes I think it's a moot point. Mercedes seems to be lagging behind Ferrari and Mclaren as far as the cars go. And they all are lagging behind Red Bull. The only fault of the Red Bull cars so far has been reliability.
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I wonder what 2000cc's 20,000 rpm and 6 atmospheres of boost would put out??? :devil
:salute
1.5 litre turbocharged F1 engine from 80's puts out 1300 plus horsepower during the race and 1500hp in qualifying. RPM were limited to 13000 , valve springs couldn't close valves fast enough.
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WTG Webber :aok completely dominated, he would have been like 35-40s clear if not for all the safety cars. I'd say the most dominating win so far this season. On board laps didn't even look like he was pushing that hard.
Also I have to say that 20s penalty on Schumacher last lap is total BS in my opinion. Alonso fubared the restart and Schumie took advantage of it. Safety car was in, cars where accelerating away, Alonso screwed up, and Schumie did what race drivers are supposed to do. Seems like a case of taking the letter of the law to the extreme to me.
I could concede, OK he hadn't crossed the line yet, shouldn't have done that, technically an illegal pass. But then just give the place back to Alonso and all is well. But 20 stinking seconds seems waaaaaay to extreme for me. :furious Ruined what was otherwise a decent drive for him.
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^ Actually you are allowed to pass after the first safety car line near pit in. No to sure about this instance, but that holds true for any restart after a safety car period.
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^ Actually you are allowed to pass after the first safety car line near pit in. No to sure about this instance, but that holds true for any restart after a safety car period.
I guess Alonso hadn't crossed that line then yet, but it was close.
It shocked me when I saw the post race results, because Martin Brundle, David Coulthard, and that other commentator who talks to much and annoys me (I REALLY miss Murray Walker) all agreed it was a fair pass. The safety car was already in the pit lane. And Webber was already accelerating down the final straight nearly to the finish. Alonso lost the back end for a moment accelerating out of the corner on the restart, and Schumie took him on the inside exiting the corner. I was really shocked that the stewards called it illegal. But even so, if it was illegal, why not just give the place back to Alonso. It's not like it gave Schumie and unfair advantage over anyone else, it happened on the 2nd or 3rd (so many corners in Monaco I can't remember) to last corner, the race was over 15s later. A 20s penalty in that situation just seems really extreme to me.
Edit: and I'm not just saying this because I dislike the Spaniard, I'd feel the same with any drivers in that situation.
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There was a line just before pitlane that Alonso had past before Shummie passed him.
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So 4 races in and so fan Schumacher has been, well... not very Schumacher-like.
Now I'm not a rabid Schumacher fan, and I never expected him to come back and dominate like he did before, I never though he could take the Championship this year. But I did thing he would be in the top 5. I'd just like to see him competing with the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Button and Alonso. The more people in the fight near the end of the season the more exciting it is I think.
So what's up? Is he really just too old, has his reaction times slowed to much with age?
It seems, especially in Australia and China that his car just didn't have the grip, especially in China he was braking earlier into the corners and accelerating slower out of them, and it seemed like every time he put the power down coming off an apex he was fighting loads of over steer. So I kinda wanna think that the car just isn't set up the way he likes, BUT then again Rosberg has outclassed him in every qualifier with the same car. His only bright spot in China was when he blocked Hamilton, whose car was obviously faster and grippier, for 3 laps. Everyone else Hamilton rolled right past with no problems.
Anyway, I think it's gonna be Vettel or Button for the Championship this year. Vettel if his car is reliable throughout, Button if it's not.
Best bit of Formula 1 is the ability to switch channels and watch Moto GP, 100 overtakes a race against 10 overtakes per season :rock
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Ferrari appealed on a technicality that the race was finishing under the safety car and under such rules theres no overtaking - however race control announced to the teams the safety car was coming in, the marshals pulled the SC signs and waved yellows, and showed green flags and lights. Mercedes maintain under the sc rules you can pass after the safety car line which was before the Rascasse with the start finish line following the corner and there was no Safety Car as it had left the track just prior to the SC line with the track under green flags/lights, so race on.
If Ferrari maintain that their drivers knew the rules and were coasting to the finish, why did Alonso try to accelerate away at the SC line - spin his back wheels and slide the back out giving the chance for Schumachers pass if he was only coasting to the end?
Ross Brawn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQerOq_7DcA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQerOq_7DcA)
Tronsky
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safety car went in, both cars had crossed the line, alonsos right foot was too heavy, schumi nicked a cheeky place. looked fine to me, couldnt believe he got the penalty. and trust me i'm not a schumi fan...
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Ross Brawn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQerOq_7DcA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQerOq_7DcA)
Tronsky
Wow!! With that evidence Ross had, I'm now even more flabbergasted that he got penalized. Not only had the SC come in, and not only had they crossed the SC line, it's plain as day from Schumie's in car footage that he was looking at green lights/flags. It's also plain as day the Alonso was racing, not coasting to the finish. How in the world does the FIA justify this?!? If they're not allowed to race, then why the %#$@ are they waving green flags?!? :headscratch:
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From the BBC F1 site:
Article 40.13 of the Formula 1 sporting regulations states: "If the race ends while the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
Doesnt explain the green flags though :headscratch:
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From the BBC F1 site:
Article 40.13 of the Formula 1 sporting regulations states: "If the race ends while the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
Doesnt explain the green flags though :headscratch:
Nor does it explain why they announced "track clear" and "safety car in this lap". Or why they pulled the SC signs off the track, or the green lights.
Bottom line; Green lights/flags + no SC signs + "track clear safety car in this lap" = They (race control, FIA) either made several colossal screw-ups simultaneously, OR they did not intend to finish under the SC (per article 40.13).
If the former, then the stewards should have said, "We're sorry Michael, but you shouldn't have been allowed to pass there. It was our mistake however, so we'll just give the place back to Alonso, your back in P7, no harm no foul"
If the latter, then Schumi's pass stands.
Another thing to consider is that the steward/driver this week was Damon Hill. Who by some accounts has no love lost for MS. Apparently (I've heard 2nd hand) Hill was on the BBC this morning trying to justify this decision, say things like Schumacher was "dangerous" and "gonna get somebody killed" and the FIA needed more "safe passing rules". Really Damon :rolleyes: Some of the passes Alonso made on his brilliant drive from 24th to 6th looked crazy dangerous, I mean pucker factor up in the teens scary. At one point I thought he was gonna drive right under Kovalinen. Should he be penalized for them? *rhetorical question* Of course not, that's what makes it exciting.
I hate to say it, but this almost sounds like a case of Damon Hill still being bitter towards MS, and using this as a chance to give him a big screw you.
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Killer Instinct, yes Schumi still have it!
The rule is crap, i mean they disccussed for 3 hours before they announced the penaltie for Schumi.
If it was a 100% mistake it would be announced instant. I think it have something to do with Damon Hill
sitting in the Jury ;)
This situation didnt happend before so i say nobody really knew what to do, but as a race driver you allways
try to overtake when the track is clear & green.
Good Job Schumi :aok
Best bit of Formula 1 is the ability to switch channels and watch Moto GP, 100 overtakes a race against 10 overtakes per season :rock
LOL since when is F1 an "non-stop overtake sport"? it was not and it will never be, its F1.
R
Gh0stFT
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Still, despite the ridiculous penalty on Schumacher, I thought it was a great race. Alonso zipping up through the field from last place made some exciting moments. A caution for a loose drain :huh . Button no doubt pissed at his crew for leaving a duct cover on and frying his engine, sucks for him. And even Rubens Barichello tossing out his steering wheel gave me a chuckle.
Most of all Webber was just crazy fast, and it didn't even look like he was pushing as hard as he could have. Plus Championship leader now. :aok Hoping Webbers great race streak continues. He seems like a very deserving guy.