Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: eagle20 on December 03, 1999, 08:55:00 AM
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Just want to complain to see what kind of responses I get:
Whats with the accelerated Blackouts in this game. I talked to an actual world war II vet a few weeks ago who flew in a F4 Corsair. He was telling me that you normally would start to black out between 6 to 9 G's, not 4 to 5 in this game. He also said that normally, a "good" pilot wouldn't black out till 8 or 9 G's. He said pilots back then use to exercise extensively everyday in order to keep in top physical condition (This allowed them to pull more G's) Additionally, he said that you never ever pulled slowly on the stick in a dog fight, if you did that, your dead. You always pulled hard bank turns and rollovers, and if you did start to blackout, it took a few seconds, not a few milliseconds.
So, now, my request is decellerate the blackout process, you know what games does it great for a WWII fighter, Janes WWII Fighters. The blackouts are definitly needed in this game to keep the realism, but damn, what am I in this game, a 300 lb beer guzzling sit on my bellybutton and do nothing all day pilot. Thats all, I don't want better guns, tougher planes, (well, I would like you to change the sound of the jumpers from the C-47 - They sound like sheep with hemroids).
I just ask that if you do respond, don't be a arrogant salamander about this, I am extremely curious as to what others think about this. (Except you Fishu, you can be arrogant if you want, seeing that you and I don't see eye to eye)
See you all in the air...
GoeyRu
PS - The WWII vet pilot I talked to was my grandfather, and if you don't think he is correct, you tell, I value MY life.
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Did real WWII fighters carry G meters on board?
I ask because without one there is no way they could tell how much they were pulling or when the onset of blackout occured.
I believe the F-16 has a computer controlled 9G limit to protect the pilot, but I dont think that many real world pilots routinely or actively push that limit. Also G suits were not standard issue in any airforce in WWII, and I do not believe the average or even above average pilot could sustain 8-9 Gs for any length of time. All the accounts I have read say it REALLY hurts.
val
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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death
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Limiter is not for the pilot, is for the plane!!
Since G is exponential along the wings in a bank the F16 could easily cross the 15G barrier and rip a wing off in manuevers if you didn't limit it to 9G. hence squeakin betty says no-no to pulling over 9. I believe Phantam fighters and the F-111 did not have these limiters. And they were very tricky to fly in combat as a result.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Of course i do know of one pilot who did a 11.2 g pull in an F16. If you want to know who he is just ask. He flies AH.
HiTech
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Back to the AH blackout thing for a mo, I dont have a problem with the way its modeled, I can ride the blackout without problem. In a dogfight I dont find the need to "black" more than about 60% of the screen (maybe 80% for short moments) and have yet to lose a fight due to blackout or related loss of SA (unless his buddy is up my 6 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
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The range of G-tolerance that people have is quite large. At the Joint Fighter Conference in 1944, a bunch of test and combat pilots tried out an anti-G suit and gave the following remarks(I'll only post those that reference numbers).
"Suit works beautifully. Pulled 7 G with no gray-out at all. Only difficulty in its wide use might be ability of pilots to exceed strength of airplanes."
"Not more than steady 5 G. Good for short high G turns but should be very carefully considered before putting in production airplanes."
"G-suit appears to materially increase the G which can be withstood before gray-out and black-out. Did not find it uncomfortable to wear. Made pull-outs up to 7.9 G. Should think it would be a decided asset in any flying where high G is encountered."
"Suit functioned O.K. I built up G slowly so that I would have gone black after approximately 4 seconds at 6 G. Suit comes unplugged inadvertently too easily."
"This device with its lack of cumbersome equipment is excellent for test work, and I was pleased with its operation. A 4 G turn was held for 720 degrees with no sign of fade or black-out. I am susceptible to fade at about 360 degrees of turn usually. I consider this to be one of the highlights of the conference."
"O.K. Like for high G pull-outs. Don't find too much help for long-time 4-5 G pull-outs. Not too comfortable on long acceleration periods."
"G-suit could fit tighter. 4 1/2 G, good; 6 G, good; 7 1/2 G, good."
"Very good. Can fly indefinitely at 5 G, but lags a little for abrupt pull-outs above 6 G."
Regardless of where you black-out, one thing that is not modeled in the game is that it doesn't feel good to put yourself under a lot of G.
We've talked about making some refinements to the onset of the black-out model and will take a look at some things when we get some time.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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PYRO:
Those numbers are all with G-suits right?
Without a G-suit would it be safe to say you could shave 1-2 Gs off of each? Looks like AH has the numbers done right for an average pilot.
HT:
I should not have inferred that the F-16 (or an above average pilot) couldn't exceed 9Gs. I just knew that that was when the warning started. I wonder how 11.2 felt heheheh OUCH!
val
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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death
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Wow.
Thanks for that info HT.
My only prob with black out was that the other guy didnt seem affected. Now I know that he was probably just flying through it.
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Eagle5 is TOTALLY CORRECT as is his grandfather. I have experience too as I mentioned b4 and the Blackout hes talking about is the most accurate example of WW2 blackout/onset anyone has mentioned! BRAVO! It takes a REAL Military pilot to know this.
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Need to clarify what we're trying to model here. Is it simply loss of visual cues, or full loss of consciousness? I've pulled 9G without ANY loss of vision, and I've grayed out at a mere 6G before. The big keys are whether or not you are wearing a G-suit and whether or not you are ready for the G onset.
If you're "planning" a manuever, it's quite simple to do enough of a "g-straining manuever" to be ready and withstand the g-onset with little or no effect. OTOH, if you're following a wingman (or target) and he suddenly makes a move which you follow instinctively, without G-straining, you can quite easily tunnel-vision, grayout, or even go nighty-night. Argue if you must, but there are single-seat fighters lost every so often due to GLOC during air combat practice, where the "highly-trained, physically-fit steely-eyed warrior" simply G'ed himself out.
The combo of G-suit and G-straining is good for about 3 Gs, and of course the WW2 pilot didn't generally even HAVE a G-suit.
Actual blackout, of course, is quite different from simply greying or tunneling. IMO what we have is a pretty good simulation of what used to happen to VISION while flying T-37s and T-38s, which by and large operate at about the same speeds and loads as the planes in AH.
Now, whether you can fly a plane while fully greyed out is another question entirely (and if we model blackout as actual loss of consciousness, then of course not only can you NOT fly, but you'll need a bit of recovery time as well). I will say that flying a REAL airplane with your "eyes closed" is not something you can do accurately enough to, say, continue an ACM manuever, while you could probably do fairly good "blacked-out ACM" whilst sitting at your non-moving, unaccelerated desk (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Actual blackout point is something that will vary from one guy to the next, but 11G is NOT a good "average," IMO. That number comes from 50 years of study, training, and technology. The average WW2 pilot didn't have the benefit of any of that, didn't necessarily have much of a diet, much of a workout regimen, or much sleep to base his G-tolerance on.
Just stirring the pot a bit, but we do need to determine some sort of "average" tolerance and apply it across the board. I think we're pretty close VISUALLY, but if we're modeling "post-blackout" effects, we need a bit more data than "my buddy pulled 11G in the centrifuge," and "my grandad pulled full stick all the time and never blacked out." That's TWO points of data--hardly enough to change the model over.
--jedi
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the saturn (and i believe gemini) astronaughts pulled well over 9g during ascents...
-shower
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Different Gs there shower. The direction is important. Astronauts sit flat on their back specifically to resist Gs. The blood is not pulled out of your brain as readily if your head isn't "up." Same principle as the reclined seat in the F-16.
I WOULD like to see some data on the actual structural G-limits of the WW2 planes tho. It's quite possible that some of them would fail structurally prior to the onset of blackout--which would be an interesting thing to model.
I can hear the howling now...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
--jedi
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Well, Jedi, here's one data point for you.
A PT-19 is a +6/-3 airplane...well, it was 50 years ago. Don't think I'd put that on a basically original wood wing now. <G>
Minor point on the T-37/38 G issue. 37's had no g-suit hook up. The 38 did, of course. I thought the suit gave me a bit more than 1G, maybe up to 1.5 additional. Been so long, it's gettin hard to remember <G>.
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Most US fighters were 7.5 G limited and probably -3 to -3.5 negative (never seen a -4 or greater spec) with actual failure 50% above that! The example of the Spit that pulled 11 G's out of the Mach 0.9 dive is about right on for the wing roots to start separating! Come to think of it, that's probably where the 11G figure came from...they looked at the wing and said, 'You pulled 11G's, so who knows...
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lets all remember this is a game, and in its early stagages.
and who keeps shooting off my wing
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Ok, I am curious Hitech, who was it? Will they speak up? I am very curious how it happenned, I know you can override the flight computer for stalls etc but I thought it had hardcoding that prevented over 9g manuevers. I know that in F4 I have never managed a +9g manuever even trying to pull out of dives but the real plane of course, is very different (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And of course the F16 can handle well over 9G. I believe it can absorb over 20G in testing. Of course nobody would want to fly it afterward!
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
[This message has been edited by Sorrow[S=A] (edited 12-10-1999).]
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well, IMO, this is not just a game, it's more than a game, it's a lifestyle (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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sorrow, i _think_ there's a switch (next to the manual pitch overide) that allows you to switch off the g-limiter. this is necessary because for heavy A-G loadouts the g-limiter is set to 5G. but if you drop your load or jettison stores (say you get bounced) you want to be able to turn at max g. i'm not sure, though. anybody know?
shower
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forgot to mention it's definitely not hard-coded.
-shower
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HTC;
I was actually wondering if your model would include damage to wing spars under G load?
It sees to me, wings should come off alot faster damaged.
Merry Christmas Everyone!
Mino
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Yep, Minotaur's on the track I was talking about...
One of the silliest things about Brand A and Brand W is the way you can be wailing on some guy, and suddenly he pulls his G-whiz 6 G dipsy-doodle rabbit-out-of-the-hat ACM magic move and is on your tail wailing on you, while his wing is sitting one damage point away from a kill for you.
Modeling structural damage and it's effect on the aircraft's ability to utilize its full flight envelope would be a pretty innovative touch I'd say. And it would change what we think of as "ace ACM" a bit as well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Re: F-16 G-limiter...
I believe this is tied into the pilot's ability to "pass" the centrifuge test at high G-loads. We had a guy in the Agressors at Red Flag who was "certified" to fly 11-G ACM, and his plane's computer was set for that value. Or so the story went. At any rate, it's a maintenance setting function. I believe the aircraft itself is good for 13 G.
The T-38 was good for about 8, IIRC, and it was definitely possible to over-G (and damage) the aircraft while not blacking out. And it was also possible to black yourself out well before the aircraft limit if you weren't careful or were surprised by the G-onset.
So, no hard and fast rule of thumb, I guess, but G-effects ARE something you deal with in high-speed flight, and we know a LOT more about em now than we did 55 years ago, so I say leave em in the game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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while we're on the subject bullet holes should _substantially_ increase drag regardless of whether they hit anything vital or not.
-shower
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Yeah, and pilot wounds should cause your plane to bob around randomly......oh wait...it already does......hmmmmmm.....
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Minotaur: that damage varies by plane.. I think spitfire was quite easily damaging its wings with hard Gs (Was that about 6G when it might get damage on the wings already)
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Fishu;
I am not sure what you intended to say. Sorry, I do not understand your post.
My intention was to have modeled damage effects to the wing spar from weapon damage. IE: An undamaged wing spar could take 9G's, a damaged one might only take 3G's.
Thanks for you reply. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 12-17-1999).]