Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hangtime on December 08, 1999, 05:06:00 PM
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An interesting sub discussion has developed in the 'F4U in Stallfights' thread regarding the FW variants; their relative merits and capabilities and notably, the potential for the Dora (when/if we get it) to unseat the Mustang as top of the fighter foodchain in AH.
Oh; I can't wait to see a Dora in AH! I was very impressed and surprised by the energy and aerodynamics modeling in AH. If the flight model fidelity holds for the Dora the way it currently does in the Mustang; we will have the most outstanding cross-platform matchup (LW v USAAF)in this sim.
Which will Win? Where? Why?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang (muahhahhaaa)
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If they do it right, it's just as fast as the P-51D, but a much better climber. P-51D has a better wingloading, so don't expect to see Doras winning dogfights.
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Hiya Funked!
I'd expect it (the dora) to be faster on the deck.. maybe this in itself might not be too significant; but it's handling at high speeds while on the deck will be. I wonder it'll wind up being a nasty surpise for us stang drivers like the La5 is. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Ahh, my favourite matchup (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Also, don't forget Dora's powerloading.
That one will give it much better acceleration, pretty important thing in E fight.
Generally, Dora would have better E income, but would be able to waste it very quickly if flown poorly.
However, it would keep E better than A-8, due to its lower drag.
Mustang could use its lower wingloading to fight it. Also, it would be flown more historically, at high alt, not as deck fighter it is now.
Can't wait to see it. And some of those Doras had cool paint job indeed.
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I agree totally on the Dora right after they put in the Hawker Tempest Mk V.
Mino
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Tempest, of course. But not before Dora. After the Dora. Or the Allies would have all the aces in their hands. And Tempests did not fight P 51. And don't jump to new planes, this thread was created to discuss Dora vs P 51 matchup. Otherwise someone will nail you with 262.
Dora did fight P 51. It was made to fight it. And we need it to fight the menace.
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howabout making the P-51 a bit more reasonable before a novelty aircraft like the 190D-9 is added into the sim. Heck the current 190A-8 can't even do 400mph TAS, i'm surprised more haven't complained about that.
Based on prevelance in the war, the more obvious choices for the next ac would be: yak3, p47, p38, bf110, typhoon, f6f, a6m
oh, and like i mentioned above, give the p51 the laminar-flow wing characteristics we've all read about (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ik: I have, when I sure don't like some spits keep with me 100% same speed at 10k, when I should be faster ;(
Looks like 190 is more correctly modelled P-51 with lower stall rate and dive to escape more used.
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Have you guys red PYRO's post? After the B26 and some work on FMs/bugs/effects, they will step back to 1942-43, most probably variants of what we have now, i.e: SpitV, MC202, 109F4, FW190A5, La-3 (Leonid ?) .... an early P51 ....
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sorry double post
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-09-1999).]
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La-3 (Leonid ?) ....
gatt,
That would be the LaGG-3, an aircraft designed from a team of three engineers, one of which was Lavochkin.
Incidently, Lavochkin's mating of the Shvetsov M-81 radial engine to the LaGG-3 body was almost literally a desperate measure. The reason is that the LaGG-3, which ended up being the most numerous Soviet fighter in 1942, was a very poor performing aircraft. Stalin was extremely displeased with this state of affairs, and Lavochkin knew his reputation was seriously on the line. Yakovlev's own criticism of anything not Yakovlev didn't help either. Thankfully, the new configuration was an immediate success. Thus began the legend of the La-5 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 12-09-1999).]
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1000+ Doras built.
400 Tempest V built.
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"Stalin was extremely displeased with this state of affairs, and Lavochkin knew his reputation was seriously on the line."
His reputation? What about his life?
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Spinny, VF-17
8X
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Funked, info I see says 800 Tempest Mk V built, and only 700 Fw190D... Oh by the way, where's my B-24, they built more of them than the B-17... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Oh BTW: guess what the first plane shot down by a Mustang was...?
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 12-09-1999).]
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funked, i really doubt that 1000+ Doras were built. I've always read somewhere between 700-900.
oh and juzz, the dora is still a better choice than the tempest, as the dora actually did some fighting, while the tempests mostly sat on their arses in england.
[This message has been edited by -ik- (edited 12-09-1999).]
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They shot down some V-1's in between all that sitting on their arses though. But I didn't say I wanted Tempest before Dora. My point wasn't that at all... Anyway Dora 12 is a much better idea. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Yowsa! Propaganda and wishful extrapoliation aside; I have over the years gained the impression that the LW had in the Dora their finest prop fighter. Of course; the Mustang gets the same recognition from the Allied side. (obscure types with limited combat exposure notwithstanding)
I heard somewhere that towards the end of the war extensive side by side testing was done with a Dora and a Stang... anybody know where I can find this?? Mebbe see it posted here?
It would be sad indeed if the Dora was not given a high priority for introduction in AH.. Considering the quality of 1 v 1 dissimilar ACM we currently enjoy, a Dora would be much applauded. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Flying the late model stang against the current 109 and FW
variants is just about a turkey shoot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And; as a dyed-in-the wool USAAF pilot, I'd sure like to wish that when the much-vaunghted FW190D/9 appears, we get a Tbolt and a Lightning (with historical terrain) STAT! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now; there's no doubt in my military mind that Pyro and HT are well aware of the current somewhat unbalanced platform availabilty, and I know it'll all come in due time. And under the circumstances, I have to point out I'm not particularly impaitent, given my platform prefrence.
Muahhhaaahaaahaaaaaa! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Dora did fight P 51. It was made to fight it. And we need it to fight the menace.
Hristo-
I've seen this quote twice, and I'm wondering what your source is? Everything I have suggests that the D9 was an attempt to boost the altitude performance of the FW190. The primary focus of the LW by this point was too stop the bombers that were leveling Germany. it's intended role was interceptor, though it was very competitive with the Mustangs and Spitfires (page 507 The Great Book of WWII Airplanes, Bonanza Books 1984). I have numerous sources that basically repeat this thought. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The D series was merely a stop-gap until the definitive Ta-152 could be developed.
Of course, it needs to be added with all due haste! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I guess the best definition would be multi role figher... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Still, its armament configuration (compared to bomber interceptors), as well as role of high escort of heavier bomber killers like A-8 or 110, suggests that its duty was somewhat different than you say, Kier.
Also, it wasn't nicknamed Mustang Killer for nothing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yes, by all means we need to add the Dora right now... so the whining will stop.
The most commonly quoted production figure for the Dora is 700ish. I believe that Funked has seen one source that states around 1000. For what it's worth the Dora saw very limited combat action prior to late December 1944.
Given the high losses the Luftwaffe was suffering (the first squad equipped with the 190D was composed of a large number of converted bomber/bomber-destroyer pilots and suffered very high losses); the avgas shortage; the moving about that some JGs did; and, finally, the number of airfield-strafing sorties the Allies made as the war came to a close, I suspect that the number of Doras that saw significant combat action was probably no more than about 400-500.
So, that means that the we should be seeing the Spitfire XIV first (which equipped RAF squads beginning in April 1944). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Or, more appropriately, a slew of other aircraft like the bf110, P38, P47, P40, Hurricane, etc. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Well, all I can say to that is they better take the George out of AH post haste, I just read that only 423 were built...
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Juzz, I should correct myself. 400 Tempest Mk. V served with the RAF during WW2. There may have been others built later.
As near as I can tell SnakeEyes is pulling that 400-500 figure out of his crack. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I forgot who gave me the new figure of 1100 or so. I had read 700 for a long time, then somebody on one of these boards (please speak up!) said he had some new info that there were 1000+.
400-500 still might be correct for the number that served though. Who knows...
On a similar note, there is a much quoted figure of 20,000 Fw 190A's built, based on very sketchy records from Fw. However BMW's records (which are supposedly in order) show that only 13,000 801 engines were built! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 12-09-1999).]
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That number (800) is for Tempest Mk V built by August 1945. Anyway, deciding which plane should be in on numbers is ridiculous and obviously HTC don't care to do it that way Eg: N1K2-J.
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Production at the end of September '43
Fw-190A series: 3223
F series: 548
G series: 790
In December of '44, 1858 Fw-190s were in action, 1237 on the western front, 621 on the Eastern front.
Of the Fw-190D series, 674 aircraft were built (including prototypes).
In mid-January '45, there were 1534 Fw190's (all types including the Ta-152) still in action.
These figures come from Heinz Nawarra's book on the 190 and seem accurate to me. The figures are actually broken down into unit strength which I didn't post here. Note that the figure for D model production is a nice exact figure, not rounded off, like 600 or 700 or 1000 or 1100. That doesn't mean it's correct, but it would seem to be reliable.
How many of those 801's went into bombers?
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Sorry wells, the numbers you have got on the D-9 are quite wrong IMHO. The overall number of produced D-models (includung ptototypes)was 847 (Quote: FW 190 / Ta 152 by Griehl / Dressel, Motorbuchverlag, ISBN: 3-613-01681-8, 2nd edition 1997)
D-9 airframe numbers (Werksnummern):
210001-212160 FW 190 D-9
217000 FW 190 D-9
400201-401380 FW 190 D-9
500001-500650 FW 190 D-9
600121-601600 FW 190 D-9
630000 FW 190 D-9
If you count in all eventualities (25% losses before reaching the squads) your number around 600 should represent the 190 D-9s that really saw combat.
Just my 5 cents
Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"
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hello
being a fw fan and having doing a bit of research on the beast,i can not resits....
For comparison between the stang and the fw190.
There is something in FW190 in combact from alfred Price (more about Fw190A against P51B).
I have seen that test in the uk archive and one comparing for NA on d9 with a jumo213 E.
It is not very accurate and does not have any hard data.
and one as well on the P47 and a Fw190 at low level.
from my research (for what it is worth...)
the test between the A and the p51 B
gave the Pony 50 mph faster up to 28k
and 70 above.
the rate of climb were comparable and the stang better in zoom climb.
the roll rate of the Fw190 was far much better.
turning circle: there is little to chose between the two. the mustang is sligtly better.
The mustang can always out dive a FW190
It seem very very likely that the test
was carried with a 390 mph fw (more likely a ground attack, captured in Italy)
It was done in late 43. The A8 the slowest of the A figthers (execpt the r11 and the A8 that got the TU around june-jully 44)was introduced in beginning of 44. Even if it was a A8 I have the speed of 399 @ 21 k.
with special dispositive that increased the boost (not the Mw50, GM1 or a petrol injection) the top speed was 405-406.
an earlier figther wersion would be 10 mph faster that that around let say 413-416 @ 22 k for the A5/A6.
The test for the P47 was with a 390 mph FW190
and a whater-methanol injected p47.
the Fw was more manoeverable but slower..
I hope that helped
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On the number produced.
well this, with power boosting in a Fw is the topic
We know for sure that there was between 17000 to 21 000 fw190 produced.
price break it down as follows
1941 1224
1942 1878
1943 3208
1944 11401
1945 up to may circa 2700
1945 ta produced 150.
so it is 19570.
i was able to more or less match that up with data in the uk archive.
as far as the early version
a0=40
A1=102
A2=423
A3=509
A4=900
A5=726
A6=556
g+F = 6634
Ta=150 or 160
In most publication, those figure are more or less the same.
but for the other it is more dodgy....
A german autor mrs Rodeike published a book in german. this is where to highest figures are comming from.
the other are the most commonly pubished.
A7=80, 80 of the number produced were R6 or 701
A8=1100,3300 or 6655
A9= none or 930
D= 650 d9 + 50 d12 or 1826 (including d11,12 13)
Rodeike works has an adventage it makes the mathermatic works...
you find a number around 20100
Any way, as far as i can tell this is a very foggy subjects..
[This message has been edited by weretiger (edited 12-10-1999).]
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Weretiger: Weren't P-51B also alot more maneuverable than P-51D?
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that is my understanding.
Even the version with the rear fuselage fin of the P51 D was not considered as the P51 B was manoeuverable.
Again i take that from diverse board and books.I can not really prove it.
I understand that the adventage of the D were a very good altitude performance (not as good as the B) and a supercharger optimised for low and medium altitude, hence better perf than the B
and of course 2 more guns
[This message has been edited by weretiger (edited 12-10-1999).]
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Absolutely... I'll admit that I'm speculating Funked... but I don't think it's an unreasonable estimate of the situation.
Assuming that 700ish is the base number from which we're working, if you knock off all the aircraft destroyed on the ground, shotdown on the first or second sortie, lost in Bodenplatte (I think the LW lost about 250 pilots with Bodenplatte so the aircraft count is obviously higher), and so forth, you've probably got about 4-500 190Ds that 'effectively' saw combat.
Now, of course, you KNOW my stand on the old number & impact argument... but when we're talking with the numbers & impact crowd, I figure I might as well speak their language.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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You'll get yer TA-152 right after I get my P-47M...
<stir, stir, stir the pot>
-Smut
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>>Assuming that 700ish is the base number from which we're working, if you knock off all the aircraft destroyed on the ground, shotdown on the first or second sortie, lost in Bodenplatte (I think the LW lost about 250 pilots with Bodenplatte so the aircraft count is obviously higher), and so forth, you've probably got about 4-500 190Ds that 'effectively' saw combat.<<
"Bodenplatte"' What is this?? 250 pilots lost??? Could you tell us what happened at 'bodenlatte'.. where it is, why it was significant?
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Yep SnakeEyes, it depends on how you define it. Anyways were are on the same wavelength - if it was in production we wanna fly it!
Hangtime: Bodenplatte was a crazy Jabo raid in January 1945. Galland had saved up a lot of fighters to try and cripple the 8th AF bombers. But he was forced to squander them on an attack against Allied airfields on the continent.
They destroyed a lot of Allied planes but lost just as many of their own, plus a lot of pilots.
A lot of 8th AF bomber crews had their death sentences revoked on that day. Hallelujah! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Juzz, no need to remove the George due to limited construction, when we have the C.205V.
According to my records, a mere 289 C.205V were produced. By the time of Italy's surrender, only 177 had been delivered to aircrews, of which only 66 were on strength!!!
Some of these aircraft later served with the Allied co-Belligerent Air Force after the armistice.
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm (http://www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm)
'feel the heat .......'
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-10-1999).]
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Only that low count of C.205s?
all right, wheres my Ta-152, no more numeric excuses :P
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Is that H or C? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Stop dreaming, Fishu. We will be very lucky if we ever get the Dora modeled correctly.
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Operation Bodenplatte was probably the last great attempt by the LW to wrest control of the skies from the Allies.
Galland's original idea, "Der Grosse Schlag", (The Big Blow) would have pitted nearly 1000 LW fighters against the Allied bombers. If successful, it might have brought down as many as 400 bombers, and significantly affected the course of daylight bombing over Europe.
Fortunately for the allies, most of the aircraft were siphoned off to support the Battle of the Bulge.
Operation Bodenplatte involved some 900+ LW aircraft attacking allied airfields at low level. A combination of bad luck and bad navigation saw the LW lose over 100 planes to its own ack, and they lost a further 300 or so aircraft in the actual attacks.
The results??? About 500 Allied fighters were destroyed on the ground, but most importantly only about 25 pilots were lost. The LW, on the other hand, lost over 200 of their most experienced pilots.
It was a mission from which the LW never recovered.
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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Re Bodenplatte..
Ahhh.. yes; heard of the raid, didn't recognise it by that name, thought it was an adjunct to the Bulge effort. Recall that the low level weather was atrocious and the LW missed or aborted most JABO targets with lotsa friendly fire losses. had no idea they nailed so many allied AC on the ground.
Wasn't there a big showdown over berlin during this .. allied intelligence got a read on LW intent & supposedly doubled escorts? As I recall they managed to keep them for the most part outta the bomber stream but at a high price.. we suffered our worst single day fighter losses during this I think.. Its all muddled now; damn I'm gettin old.
Kinda makes yah wonder about how things would of turned out if guys like Galland did the planning instead... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thanks!
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Hang, if guys like Galland did the planning, they wouldn't have started such a foolish war in the first place! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)