Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Pongo on April 30, 2010, 10:44:29 AM
-
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=53552 (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=53552)
Some pretty good shots in there, some crazy bad ones.
That mossie pilot was likely pretty Pissed off.
-
got to ask - why were USAAF strafing B-17s and shooting at mossies? :headscratch:
-
My guess is they were trying to destroy planes that landed largely intact but behind enemy lines.
-
Well, I would guess the guy shooting a the mossie at 100 yards wasnt as good at recognizing a mossie as we are. But you will notice it was a short burst.
The Buff looks like it is down intact behind enemy lines I guess.
-
ok, makes sense. the mossies sadly an example of friendly fire (looks like 2 different ones to me). doing a little research it seems that it was pretty much open season on mossies for the 4FG. especially surprising for this pilot as a member of 335FS because they had converted from 121 (Eagle) Squadron RAF so should have had a pretty good idea what RAF aircraft looked like. (although I dont believe 2nd Lt Lewis flew with 121sqn, must have joined later)
cant find out where 335FS were flying on 6/10/1944, but heres the mossie losses for that day:
ML996 Mosquito B.XVI 105s Dortmund Lost without trace from intruder mission
MM113 Mosquito B.XVI 571s Berlin Abandoned over target-area during intruder mission
HR193 Mosquito FB.VI 107s Osnabrück Failed to return from intruder mission
NS522 Mosquito PR.XVI 140s Friesische Inseln Failed to return from reconnaissance
HK179 Mosquito XII 307s Coltishall Swung on take-off and hit parked Tempests
HK499 Mosquito XIII 29s Handorf Failed to return from intruder mission
HK504 Mosquito XIII 29s Stade Failed to return from intruder mission
HK503 Mosquito XIII 409s Le Culot Bellylanded due to engine failure during sweep
MM574 Mosquito XIII 409s Bruxelles Damaged by débris from Ju-188; engine cut and abandoned
:(
-
We did this one in another thread that I can't find at the moment.
Two 4th pilot's 'shared' the Mossie, ID'd as a 410 I believe. Crew of the Mossie was killed :(
17 was destroyed on the ground after a forced landing. Fairly common practice with downed birds that intact.
-
well, swastikas apart, the 410 and mossie do look similar.
-
and the mossie had LIGHT losses compared to other planes. Amazing what total war looks like.
-
Well, I would guess the guy shooting a the mossie at 100 yards wasnt as good at recognizing a mossie as we are.
Yep. He probably had icons turned off.
-
It takes far less rounds to down a plane in flight and with living crew onboard than it does to blow up a parked stationary plane, FYI.
Can't kill the flight crew. Can't stop the engines. Can't disrupt lift by tearing chunks out of the wings. It's already on the ground. Most of the stuff that would make it fall out of the air and hit the ground --- well it's already on the ground.
-
nasty business those 4th FG guys and the mossie. I don't know who the got it wrong being so close to it and didn't see the RAF roundels after flying past it?
About a minute later there is one plane flying THROUGH tree on a strafing run.
-
Sad that a mossie got shot down by friendly fire. On the other hand perhaps the mossie crew could have been paying more attention and evaded attack for long enough to get a possitive ID. I don't know, they didn't even seem to notice the fighter behind them firing. Maybe they did but ID'ed it as friendly, who knows. Such is war. :headscratch:
-
this is off topic but...i had some WWII gun film (idk which plane it was from) but i had to sell them when money was tight :cry :cry
-
I can totally see the CO of those guys yelling at the pilots for friendly fire
-
ok, makes sense. the mossies sadly an example of friendly fire (looks like 2 different ones to me). doing a little research it seems that it was pretty much open season on mossies for the 4FG. especially surprising for this pilot as a member of 335FS because they had converted from 121 (Eagle) Squadron RAF so should have had a pretty good idea what RAF aircraft looked like. (although I dont believe 2nd Lt Lewis flew with 121sqn, must have joined later)
cant find out where 335FS were flying on 6/10/1944, but heres the mossie losses for that day:
ML996 Mosquito B.XVI 105s Dortmund Lost without trace from intruder mission
MM113 Mosquito B.XVI 571s Berlin Abandoned over target-area during intruder mission
HR193 Mosquito FB.VI 107s Osnabrück Failed to return from intruder mission
NS522 Mosquito PR.XVI 140s Friesische Inseln Failed to return from reconnaissance
HK179 Mosquito XII 307s Coltishall Swung on take-off and hit parked Tempests
HK499 Mosquito XIII 29s Handorf Failed to return from intruder mission
HK504 Mosquito XIII 29s Stade Failed to return from intruder mission
HK503 Mosquito XIII 409s Le Culot Bellylanded due to engine failure during sweep
MM574 Mosquito XIII 409s Bruxelles Damaged by débris from Ju-188; engine cut and abandoned
:(
Thomas and Shores ("2nd Tactical Air Force") say it was the 140 Squadron machine, F/L A.E. Palmer and F/S D. Gardner both killed. Four days earlier, another 140 Squadron aircraft had been shot down by Thunderbolts.
So far as I can determine, 140 lost one crew to German flak, and possibly another to a 262, with third aircraft being damaged by the Luftwaffe but returning safely.
-
nasty business those 4th FG guys and the mossie. I don't know who the got it wrong being so close to it and didn't see the RAF roundels after flying past it?
It's the nature of real life combat. We play a game, these guys are flying for real firing real bullets and facing real death. The mistake could have been caused by fear, adrenaline, fatigue, inexperiance or a combination of the those or any other real world problems you don't deal with in a game.
-
I came across an account of a group of P-47s setting up to attack a Mosquito PR.Mk XVI in one of my books. They P-47s had already dropped their tanks and were lining up for the run when the Mossie's crew fired their "color of the day" flare, stopping the imminent attack.
-
Which book is that Karnak? I can't recall having read that story.
-
I can totally see the CO of those guys yelling at the pilots for friendly fire
Men were probably killed, or injured in that short burst of friendly fire, really not something to joke about, especially such a weak one.
-
No probably about it.
-
Scherf, I found that one in 'Mosquito' by Sharp & Bowyer while hunting for descriptions of Mosquito vs Me262 encounters.
-
Gotcha, thanks.
-
nasty business those 4th FG guys and the mossie. I don't know who the got it wrong being so close to it and didn't see the RAF roundels after flying past it?
ID-ing aircraft in flight isn't as easy as you might think, especially if you're in combat or other high-stress situation. The biggest problem is that you have a tendancy to see what you expect (or want) to see and many features that seem obvious to the casual observer just aren't to someone under stress, even something like roundels. For instance, the F111 and Mig23 look amazingly similar even though the F111 is twice the size of the Flogger and the Mig23 has a big sawtooth leading edge on the wing that's very visible. Put them next to each other on the ground and there's absolutely no way you'd mistake them for each other but put them in the air and it's a completely different story. The 1994 shoot down of two US Army Blackhawks during OPC (Northern Iraqi no-fly zone following the first Gulf War) happened even though the AWACS knew there were friendlies in the area and the Eagles had IFF interrogators and both fighters did a Visual ID. The Blackhawks were carrying external tanks (not a real common configuration) and looked very similar to Iraqi Hinds. They expected to see Hinds, wanted to see Hinds, and saw "Hinds". I ran into a fighter about 20 miles off the coast of Vladivostok in 1986 that I thought at first was an F4 off Midway or maybe a JSDF F4 but it turned out to be a Soviet SU15 Flagon, the same interceptor the Soviets used to shoot down the KAL 007 airliner three years earlier (not too far away from where I was). Coming beak to beak with him we had our TCS (a high power TV camera under the nose) on him and I saw a low wing, two large, rectangular intakes, and a big old nose and remember thinking "what the heck is an F4 doing coming FROM Soviet airspace?". I realized what it was only when I saw that the wings were flat and the tips didn't crank up like the Phantom's. I really knew what he was when he pickled his drop tanks to play. I guess he didn't like seeing a Tomcat that close to Vlad. :D
-
They expected to see Hinds, wanted to see Hinds, and saw "Hinds".
I reckon that about covers it - highly unlikely there were any other aircraft near the mossie, so near fear or fog of war, just young guys wanting to get to grips with the enemy. "A twin on its own can't be ours," or some such.
Friendly fire accounted for more mossies than one might think. Of the losses to which I can attribute a definite cause, 40 are to friendly fire. That contrasts with 45 to 190s, and 26 to 109s. Flak accounted for 196 that I know of, but there are likely many more than that.
Edit - Meh, make it 41, possibly 42 for friendly fire. The truth may simply never be known in some cases, especially at night, over water.
-
Didn't the USAAF paint the tails of their Mossies red to help ID them from the Me410?
(http://www.airrecce.co.uk/graphics/AC/Mosquito/F-8-USAAF-650.jpg)
-
Scherf, I got home and looked up that passage. It is on page 138, bottommost paragraph.]
Mace2004, that matches pretty closely to what I have heard about the Iranian airliner shootdown. The The Aegis operators expected, or feared, Iranian aircraft to enter the fray to support the gunboats we were engaged with and, even though the computers were reporting a climbing contact, the operators repeatedly identified it as a descending F-14 on an attack path.
-
Thanks mate.
I know of another instance with Thunderbolts, in which they attacked and shot down a USAAF Mosquito, escorted by USAAF Mustangs, despite the Mossie crew maneuvering to present national markings and yelled calls on the radio. The Thunderbolts who shot down the 140 Squadron Mossie on 2 October (not the one in the film clip) apparently reported "a Mosquito in German markings" (!), as did the Mustang pilot who shot down a Mossie during operation Clarion.
I dunno, people see what they want to see, U guess, as posted above by Mace.
-
Mace2004, that matches pretty closely to what I have heard about the Iranian airliner shootdown. The The Aegis operators expected, or feared, Iranian aircraft to enter the fray to support the gunboats we were engaged with and, even though the computers were reporting a climbing contact, the operators repeatedly identified it as a descending F-14 on an attack path.
Yep, definently a good example. Of course, I think the reports focused on what the air track was doing and tend to gloss over a very significant point. Exactly what sort of threat did an F14 pose to an Aegis cruiser??? Iranian F14's don't carry bombs, never did and never have. We didn't even start to experiment with bombs on the Tomcat until 1987 at VX4. So, what could an F14 have done to Vincennes? A strafing run on an Aegis that had SM2 and Phalanx? That would have been an incredibly stupid decision for the Iranians especially since they had a bunch of F4s that did carry bombs. Overall this incident was a terrible series of incompetance, mistakes and wish fulfilment. Life is hard, it's even harder if you're stupid.
-
Life is hard, it's even harder if you're stupid.
That raht thar is sig material.
-
Didn't the USAAF paint the tails of their Mossies red to help ID them from the Me410?
(http://www.airrecce.co.uk/graphics/AC/Mosquito/F-8-USAAF-650.jpg)
Eventually yes, they did. following the loss of NS533 of the 25th BG on August 12 1944, which I see now from my notes was lost to P-51s, not to Thunderbolts. Apparently the Mossie was mistaken for a Ju-188.
-
Greetings to the discussion group,
I have a lot of information regarding many of the mosquitos on the evening of 6th OCT 1944.
However, When I use the link to the film below it does not work anymore.
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=53552
Does anyone know where this film has gone and If it is still available. It may answer some very important questions about action on 6th OCT which are puzzling many people.
Thanks in anticipation.
Mug
-
It's on youtube now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je_EYjcK8Bw
What questions are there?
-
Greetings to the discussion group,
I have a lot of information regarding many of the mosquitos on the evening of 6th OCT 1944.
However, When I use the link to the film below it does not work anymore.
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=53552
Does anyone know where this film has gone and If it is still available. It may answer some very important questions about action on 6th OCT which are puzzling many people.
Thanks in anticipation.
Mug
I think the "discussion group" broke up slightly over three years ago.
-
Yes most of the above users are now persona non grata
-
Most of them are still around.
-
Wasn't Guy Gibson killed in a friendly fire incident while flying a Mossie?
63tb
-
Hmmm, as I understand it, an old boy who'd been a rear gunner claimed, very recently, to have opened fire on what he thought was a Ju 88 on that night, afterwards felt that "it must have been me."
Not sure how much credence I give that. Have not read of Gibson's aircraft having shown evidence of gunfire. Still think the original explanation, fuel starvation due to insufficient understanding of the aircraft's fuel system, is far more likely.
-
Yes most of the above users are now persona non grata
Actually it looks as though not a single user in this thread is PNG.
It is however over three years old.
-
Hmmm, as I understand it, an old boy who'd been a rear gunner claimed, very recently, to have opened fire on what he thought was a Ju 88 on that night, afterwards felt that "it must have been me."
Not sure how much credence I give that. Have not read of Gibson's aircraft having shown evidence of gunfire. Still think the original explanation, fuel starvation due to insufficient understanding of the aircraft's fuel system, is far more likely.
I saw the articles about the rear gunner possibly shooting down Gibson. I think it's a bit like the Glen Miller story where the Lanc dropped a bomb that knocked down his plane. We'll never know.
That Mossie has the blister on the top of the canopy that is seen on lots of the PR birds. Seems like we've discussed this one before too. The 4th pilots each got half credit for a 'Ju88" I believe. There's even better known film of a PR Spitfire XI getting chopped by friendly fire out there too.
Scary to watch that stuff and think that folks are dying for real. I seem to recall we determined the ID of that Mossie too and that both crew were killed :(
The other fascinating piece of film in that batch is early on with a 479th 38 pilot just about to light up a 109 when another 38 cuts across his nose. bet he never saw him.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Battle%20of%20Britain/lightning_zpse0c15dc8.jpg)
-
The other fascinating piece of film in that batch is early on with a 479th 38 pilot just about to light up a 109 when another 38 cuts across his nose. bet he never saw him.
Good thing killshooter was turned off.
- oldman
-
This is an interesting film...
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/military-store-dump/query/B17 (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/military-store-dump/query/B17)
Most P-51Bs do not yet have unit markings. However, the one with markings belongs to the 354th FG of the 9th AF. This Fighter Group was operationally transferred to the 8th AF because it was the only P-51 group in the ETO in November 1943. They flew the first Mustang escort missions. The P-47s belong to the 4th FG. One P-47C, marked WD-X was transferred to the 56th FG when the 4th transitioned to the P-51B. The next P-47C was the plane assigned to Lt. Robert J. Messenger, and was transferred to the 368th FG when the P-51s went on combat status. The last P-47 taking off is "Reggie's Reply", belonging to Major Johnny Godfrey. It's a P-47D-1-RE, SN 42-7884. The aircraft depicted in the film, including early a few B-17G-1 bombers, indicates to me that the film probably dates to December of 1943. The 4th FG was stationed at Debden, but this film was not shot at Debden. Debden did not have three runways. Seeing as there are all types of fighters and bombers, I suspect the location was the Honington Air Depot.
Fascinating film.....
-
ID-ing aircraft in flight isn't as easy as you might think, especially if you're in combat or other high-stress situation. The biggest problem is that you have a tendancy to see what you expect (or want) to see and many features that seem obvious to the casual observer just aren't to someone under stress, even something like roundels. For instance, the F111 and Mig23 look amazingly similar even though the F111 is twice the size of the Flogger and the Mig23 has a big sawtooth leading edge on the wing that's very visible. Put them next to each other on the ground and there's absolutely no way you'd mistake them for each other but put them in the air and it's a completely different story. The 1994 shoot down of two US Army Blackhawks during OPC (Northern Iraqi no-fly zone following the first Gulf War) happened even though the AWACS knew there were friendlies in the area and the Eagles had IFF interrogators and both fighters did a Visual ID. The Blackhawks were carrying external tanks (not a real common configuration) and looked very similar to Iraqi Hinds. They expected to see Hinds, wanted to see Hinds, and saw "Hinds". I ran into a fighter about 20 miles off the coast of Vladivostok in 1986 that I thought at first was an F4 off Midway or maybe a JSDF F4 but it turned out to be a Soviet SU15 Flagon, the same interceptor the Soviets used to shoot down the KAL 007 airliner three years earlier (not too far away from where I was). Coming beak to beak with him we had our TCS (a high power TV camera under the nose) on him and I saw a low wing, two large, rectangular intakes, and a big old nose and remember thinking "what the heck is an F4 doing coming FROM Soviet airspace?". I realized what it was only when I saw that the wings were flat and the tips didn't crank up like the Phantom's. I really knew what he was when he pickled his drop tanks to play. I guess he didn't like seeing a Tomcat that close to Vlad. :D
I have never been in combat but I spent a couple of minutes in the boxing ring and the first thing that happens to me is I loose all peripheral vision. Ya you could "train" to help this but I always got a sort of tunnel vision.
I'm wondering if fighter pilots experience{d} the same type of thing? As I understand it it's part of the fight or flight response. I would think that this could come into play when IDing friend or foe. I didn't have that issue,I knew the other guy wasn't going to be friendly from the start..... :devil
It's a very interesting topic,a bit morbid but I find it fascinating.
:salute
-
That's what you have a wingman for.
Old hares always looked back for wingman and cons before doing his deed.
Fights in AH tend to be everyone for himself, and if you fight in teams often you get it on 200/private for doing it.
-
This is an interesting film...
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/military-store-dump/query/B17 (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/military-store-dump/query/B17)
Most P-51Bs do not yet have unit markings. However, the one with markings belongs to the 354th FG of the 9th AF. This Fighter Group was operationally transferred to the 8th AF because it was the only P-51 group in the ETO in November 1943. They flew the first Mustang escort missions. The P-47s belong to the 4th FG. One P-47C, marked WD-X was transferred to the 56th FG when the 4th transitioned to the P-51B. The next P-47C was the plane assigned to Lt. Robert J. Messenger, and was transferred to the 368th FG when the P-51s went on combat status. The last P-47 taking off is "Reggie's Reply", belonging to Major Johnny Godfrey. It's a P-47D-1-RE, SN 42-7884. The aircraft depicted in the film, including early a few B-17G-1 bombers, indicates to me that the film probably dates to December of 1943. The 4th FG was stationed at Debden, but this film was not shot at Debden. Debden did not have three runways. Seeing as there are all types of fighters and bombers, I suspect the location was the Honington Air Depot.
Fascinating film.....
Yes it was. I was wondering if VF-P might be Godfrey's bird. I felt better about my Mustang landing skills after the one guy bounced and went around :)
-
I have never been in combat but I spent a couple of minutes in the boxing ring and the first thing that happens to me is I loose all peripheral vision. Ya you could "train" to help this but I always got a sort of tunnel vision.
I'm wondering if fighter pilots experience{d} the same type of thing? As I understand it it's part of the fight or flight response. I would think that this could come into play when IDing friend or foe. I didn't have that issue,I knew the other guy wasn't going to be friendly from the start..... :devil
It's a very interesting topic,a bit morbid but I find it fascinating.
:salute
It's actually a huge topic in aviation John. Becoming too focused on one specific thing is a highly studied problem in aviation and more than just in fights. Aviation is one of those areas where you really have to be able to simultaneously manage multiple things all at the same time and if you can't control and prioritize your focus then you're not going to be successful. For instance, maybe you've heard the maxim "aviate, navigate, then communicate?" This is drilled into your head from the very beginning and comes directly from experiences where pilots (or crews) have flown perfectly good airplanes into the ground simply because they "forgot" to fly the plane and became single-mindedly focused on some other, many times very minor, issues. The Eastern flight into the Everglades comes to mind. When landing on a CV you have a specific instrument scan (meatball, lineup, angle of attack) that you continually do to make sure you don't forget lineup or get too slow while focused on your flight path (meatball).
This ability is so overwhelmingly important in aviation that there are countless terms, maxims, and aphorisms used to remind pilots what they should be doing such as "Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee." Other terms are "instrument scan," "situational awareness," "boresighting," and "target fixation." The second and third terms come directly from situations where a pilot is so intensely focused on precisely placing his pipper on a target (for bombs or air-to-air) that he ends up flying right into his target. Generally though, they can be used to describe any situation where the pilot's ability to manage, prioritize and time-share multiple tasks breaks down in an uncontrolled fashion.
To go directly to your question yes, it's a real issue in a fight. The more intense a fight for instance, the more likely it is that the pilots aren't looking at much else except each other. In other words, their situational awareness breaks down. You have to constantly remind yourself to take a quick look around until it becomes second nature.
-
Thx Mace!
It's easy for us to say this or that about cartoon airplanes but we both know it's a lot different in the real deal!
Most guys would be banging their head off the canope trying some of the moves we do regularly in our cartoon planes and we sure don't feel the G forces or fatigue.I do experience a version of it tho,it's what keeps us here,that adrenaline rush but It's not quite the same I'm sure...... we don't have that pucker factor!
Mace I was fortunate enough to grow up hearing stories about the air war,so I heard many axioms..... not always the polite ones we can mention on the forums.. :devil
:salute
-
Great post Mace.