Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Karnak on May 01, 2010, 01:43:04 AM
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Most sources list the Mosquito as having 150 rounds per cannon. Some erroneously list 300 rounds per gun due to two cannon feeding out of each ammo box, but that not being clear in some diagrams that list each box as 300 rounds. In 2000 or 2001 I had a brief correspondence with either the RAF Museum or the Imperial War Museum (I don't recall which and have long since lost the email to a hard drive death) in which they said the Mosquito had an overload of 175 rounds per cannon (and 720 rounds per machine gun, up from 500, as an overload). I forwarded this email to HTC and it may or may not be the source of the overload ammo in AH. It is entirely possible that HTC has another source, or even the same source the museum was referencing, on that.
Why bring this up again, almost a decade later? Well, in anticipation of the redone Mosquito I was reading through a bunch of my Mosquito books and I came across an interesting passage in "Mosquito" by C. Martin Sharp & Michael J. F. Bowyer, ISBN 0 947554 41 6, on page 340. It pertains to changes made to Mosquito NF.Mk IIs in order to switch them over to Intruder operations after the Intruder concept had been proven, it reads as follows:
On 10 December Air Marshal Leigh Mallory, C.-in-C. Fighter Command, visited Hatfield to report that it had been decided that Mosquitoes in his command were to adopt more offensive roles, and that the company would shortly be asked to equip some night-fighters with long range tanks enabling them to make daylight cloud-cover patrols. In December and January, 1943, this work was done on six aircraft in each of five squadrons, Nos. 25, 85, 151, 157 and 264. Radar was removed and Gee navigation equipment fitted. Twenty-mm. ammunition capacity was increased from 175 rounds to 255 rounds per gun. Thus, as 23 Squadron left, the Intruder campaign was actually to increase.
The long range tanks mentioned go were the rear of the bomb bay would have been had the Mk II had a bomb bay, this option was available and used for Mosquito Mk VIs as well. These conversions were done in Dec. of 1942 and Jan. of 1943, six months before the Mk VI entered service. In July of 1943 three squadrons, 418, 456 and 605 began using the Mk VI on Intruder missions, per page 344.
What I am now curious about is if the Mosquito Mk VI was carrying 255 rounds per gun, and if so, was it doing it right out of the production gate? Is the 150 rounds per gun, 175 rounds per gun information simply copied over from data about the F.Mk II and NF.Mk II due to sources simply saying they had the same armament? It is curious that the Beaufighter carried so much ammunition for its 20mm cannons and RAF Fighter Command required the offensive Mosquito Mk IIs to carry a similar ammunition supply and would leave the Mosquito Mk VIs with the same ammunition load of the defensive Mosquito Mk IIs.
Personally I suspect that the Mk VI carried the larger ammunition supply, but I don't have a direct quote or data to support that. I have read that the NF.Mk 30 had a capacity like that for its 20mm cannons.
Sherf, do you know anything about this?
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Not a post on topic, but wasn't the Tempest able to carry 200RPG? Our version has 150RPG.
When the Tempest is remodelled, I hope we see it's max ammo loadout applied.
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Kazaa,
No idea. I don't have a lot of data on the Typhoon/Tempest/Fury line.
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Karnak,
My references have the Beau VIC as having 240 rpg, and the TFX as 283 rpg. Dunno if that helps.
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It is inline with RAF Fighter Command liking higher 20mm ammo totals for offensive operations.
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Sherf, do you know anything about this?
Hi Karnak,
Yeah, I've seen the reference in Sharp & Bowyer, but I've never seen anything to support it, other than one or two books apparently parroting the statement (but offering no back-up). I've snooped around for somthing to support it, no go.
I have the CG table for the F.II here, but the "overload" section still lists 700 cannon rounds maximum.
The only thing I've ever found to suggest a maximum of more than 700 rounds was, IIRC, a combat report which stated the pilot had exhausted his ammunition on ground targets, firing 200 rounds from each of 2 or 3 of the Hispanos, the remaining weapons jamming. The table of ammunition used, located at the bottom of the report, specified the rounds used.
I'm not sure where the could have fitted more ammo on the FB.VI, due to the centre tanks taking up the forward portion of the space in the wing otherwise used for the cannon ammo boxes. The animation they put together for the Airfix 1:24 Mossie assembly shows this IIRC.
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Thanks for the info, Sherf.
Another thing struck me while looking at the Airfix kit. HTC could easily do a Mosquito F.Mk II with lower performance of the Merlin 21s by doing different propeller blades, putting flame dampers on the model and disabling the bomb bay. Other than those things, the F.Mk II would use the same exact model. NF.Mk II would just need some radar trees on the nose and the cockpit changed to have the radar controls/display for the navigator.
That would be a pretty quick way to get another variant out of the model work already done. The performance would be different enough to be two distinct models as well, particularly now than the Mk VI will be a daylight intruder version.
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Karnak,
My references have the Beau VIC as having 240 rpg, and the TFX as 283 rpg. Dunno if that helps.
Ahh Beaufighters...... :)
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Beaufighter will make a great addition when they get to it, no doubt.
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Hi Karnak,
Yeah, I've seen the reference in Sharp & Bowyer, but I've never seen anything to support it, other than one or two books apparently parroting the statement (but offering no back-up). I've snooped around for somthing to support it, no go.
I have the CG table for the F.II here, but the "overload" section still lists 700 cannon rounds maximum.
The only thing I've ever found to suggest a maximum of more than 700 rounds was, IIRC, a combat report which stated the pilot had exhausted his ammunition on ground targets, firing 200 rounds from each of 2 or 3 of the Hispanos, the remaining weapons jamming. The table of ammunition used, located at the bottom of the report, specified the rounds used.
I'm not sure where the could have fitted more ammo on the FB.VI, due to the centre tanks taking up the forward portion of the space in the wing otherwise used for the cannon ammo boxes. The animation they put together for the Airfix 1:24 Mossie assembly shows this IIRC.
Sounds like the requirement was 200 rounds per 20mm and up to 1000 rounds per MG
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I looked at that airfix animation. I don't see how the ammo space is any different for the II or the VI.
I think we'd need some better data to be sure of what we're talking about though.
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The II didn't have the centre-section tanks ahead of the cannon ammo boxes. If it needed extra fuel, it could carry two additional tanks behind the cannon. The two tanks totalled 144 Imperial gallons, better than the VI's 50.
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Was the VI plumbed for a long range tank in the bomb bay? I seem to recall that it was...
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Was the VI plumbed for a long range tank in the bomb bay? I seem to recall that it was...
Yes, it could carry a 63 gallon tank in the bomb bay, in lieu of bombs. I believe this tank will have been used on some of the ultra-long range sorties. For example, a 418 Squadron crew flew to Kolberg direct from the U.K. in April 1944.
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Not a post on topic, but wasn't the Tempest able to carry 200RPG? Our version has 150RPG.
When the Tempest is remodelled, I hope we see it's max ammo loadout applied.
You would ask for more cannon in that beast. :)
-Spektor
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i think they should also re look up the armourment. in 1943 they actually mouted a 6 pdr where the 20mm cannons would go. it fired 25 rds in 20 seconds so really you can use a faster weapon with more hitting power here the link of the footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QndLmfp6Y5w&feature=related
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SDGhalo,
That is the Mk XVIII "Tse Tse" that you have seen mentioned in other threads. It also had ~800lbs of additional armor and so cannot simply be done as a weapons loadout.