Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Noah17 on May 01, 2010, 08:19:37 AM
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My question is: How can you maintain a high G turn at very high speeds; generally 400+ MPH. This is somewhat of a "re hash" of a question that I've asked on the BBS before but, maybe I didn't ask it/word it correctly. I still got some great information but came away with the feeling that most thought it was not useful in the MA as a tactic to get to a rear hemisphere shooting solution or, maybe any shooting solution on most planes that turn well at lower speeds(zeke/Spit?/109,Ki-84, others?). This is different then going straight down to "dive out" at compression speed hoping the other plane brakes or, the downward spiral tactic where you're pointed straight down but trying to go slower hoping the other guy overshoots. This would be helpful for planes like the F4U/P-51/P-40; planes that were known for their ability to turn well and maintain control at high speeds.
Offline I took an F4U up to 11K and put the nose down slightly to get my speed up to 400MPH. I then rolled 90degrees and let the nose remain slightly angled down. I maintained my turn over 400MPH riding the very edge of the blackout. I was able to get 2 complete turns out of the plane at over 400MPH. I lost about 6.5-7K of altitude from when I started my turn at about 10k. I maintained slightly more than 400Mph the entire time. But would this be enough to get me "around" on the planes I listed earlier? With practice has anyone done this and gotten 3 or 4 circles; and is it worth it? I understand a better low speed turning plane could stay a little slower and cut the corner for a shot but, if he missed maybe it would be the only chance he had and I would have more E and be able to go vertical and come down on top of him?
Here is an excerpt from "Fire in the Sky" written by Eric M. Bergerud from an interview with Joel Paris an ace with the 49th Fighter Group's 7th Squadron in New Guinea; he flew the P-40 early in the war: "If you knew what you were doing you could fight a Jap on even terms, but you had to make him fight your way. He could outturn you at slow speed. You could outturn him at high speed. When you got in a turning fight with him, you dropped your nose down so you kept your airspeed up, you could outturn him. At low speed he could outroll you because of those big ailerons; they looked like barn doors on the Zero. If your speed was up over 275, you could outroll it. His big ailerons didn't have the strength to make high-speed rolls; it was like they were set in concrete."
Maybe this better illustrates what I mean by outturning a known T-n-B plane at high speeds.
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I understand your question, but again, comparing real life with the game is apples and oranges.
Yes you want to force the other plane to fight your fight, but that only works with-in a certain area. Being a game, "death" isn't a factor in most cases, as well as winning the fight for a "tactical" reason, so most "fighter rules" are thrown out the window.
You keep your speed up, and I'll go look for a different fight. To me it looks like your running :D Eventually your going to have to make a guns pass. It then becomes just another BnZ pass and I react according to your speed and angle to give myself the best angle for my shot, or to force you to burn the most "E". And it continues. Either you loose the "E" and fight my way :devil or your BnZ long enough for some "picker" to show up.
I don't see where maintaining 400 is going to help you. It takes you a half mile to make one turn at 400, I can make 3 at a slower speed. How are you going to get on my tail?
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Noah17,
Along with what Fugitive said, you'll also have the trouble of target tracking in a high speed turn like that. All they have to do is be out of your plane of travel(offset from line of travel), and you are going to have a hard time picking them up. In which case you'll have to slow down to re-aquire and the entire exercise was moot. If you are referring to this exercise in requards to a hog vs a better turning slower airplane, you have better options. One of the best things you can do in this game is spar with a good stick with the airplanes you are having trouble with, with the aircraft you are trying to learn. Send me a PM if you'd like to do this and we will setup a time. All planes have their strength's and weaknesses, you have to know yours and know theirs to be succesfull.
:salute
BigRat
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Noah you're putting the cart before the horse. You don't always want to maneuver at 400 MPH. Blowing all your E in a high speed spiral descent is often not your best option.You generally don't decide before the fight how to maneuver and hope your target follows your plan. There are exceptions like trying to rope somebody, setting them up for a wingman or picking somebody with BnZ but usually if you commit to a fight you can't follow a script past the initial merge. You need to see what your target is doing and adjust your maneuvers to your target based on your aircraft's abilities vs theirs.
The excerpt you quoted was explained in your previous post. At higher speeds the Zero doesn't maneuver as well. The lesson is: don't get slow near a Zero if you aren't in an aircraft that can turn with it at slow speeds. A maneuver you read about that worked when the target flew a certain way will not work against an online pilot who has already learned from his fatal mistakes.
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Heres an example of using 'fast turns' 300-360 mph in combat against superior turning aircraft. If your looking for some sort of turning method that poses no risk to yourself, especially in a fantastic all round aircraft like an F4U well respectfully thats just being a bit timid. :salute
http://www.4shared.com/file/dh3LFqWd/2v2spitsdisadvant.html
(http://www.4shared.com/file/dh3LFqWd/2v2spitsdisadvant.html)
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As others have already said, I don't think all that speed helps you out turn anyone.
The closest thing I can think of, and I use it a lot, is barrel rolling over the top of a slower AC to gain vertical seperation and stay behind his 3/9 line. When you're at the top you have a lot of options relative to lift vector rotation and it's pretty easy to reaquire the six of pretty much anything but the speed isn't really allowing me to out turn him, I'm just trying to maintain it to allow for more options later.
If I'm serious about wanting to fight someone riding the edge of a blackout's the last place I want to be.
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This is not something I would do at a merge. Also, it's not me or the bad guy B-n-Z'ing. This is not something I'm planning before I get in to a fight because no fight is ever exactly the same. This is only something I would have tried if I had not noticed one of those planes had pulled in behind me while we're level at about the same speed. That situation can happen all the time (please don't say well......you shouldn't have lost your SA because that's not the issue or an answer to my question).
Basically I'm level and don't notice the bad guy until he's about 800yds behind me roughly co-E. If this is the case I may not be desperate but, I'm in a pretty bad spot. It's not timid or running if it's something I can do to use the strength of my plane vs. a weakness of my opponents plane and put myself in a position for a reversal. Pervert, thanks very much for the film. You did an excellent job fighting back but the film didn't fit the situation I had in mind of finding someone Co-E on my 6. I should have explained that better.
BigRat, your point about tracking is a good one. The blackout was not total I maintained enough vision to be able to see my speedometer and the nose of my plane. I now realize I didn't try looking behind me to see what my rearview would have been like and if I would have been able to track someone behind me. That's pretty damn important.
I realize that for every move there is a counter move. And sitting here it's easy to say "well if you did this then I would have done that." If that is your comment that's fine, I'm still learning something that I should be watching for. But, it's not always that easy because you don't always have the time to think that clearly in combat. Many people get greedy for a kill and follow maneuvers that they shouldn't. I've seen some very good sticks lose SA or get greedy and get killed as a result....I know, sometimes I'm the one that killed them...and I stink.
Thanks very much for the time you've taken to help, I've gained from it and I really appreciate it.
:salute
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Noah17,
"Basically I'm level and don't notice the bad guy until he's about 800yds behind me roughly co-E." I have an App for that :lol . Shoot me a PM and we'll work out a time to work on this situation.
:salute
BigRat
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If you're level and Co-E with a better turning aircraft 800 off your six just unload and extend and reset the situation.
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I fly 109s alot, and I always try to take the fight uphill. when I fly the dora, I do some high speed turns but not for long as I find it more usefull banking E rather than a high speed turn fight. When someone is doing high speed turns depending on the situation and planes we are in, I do a lagg turn with the thinking I'm pulling less Gs and not burning as much E, hopefully thats the right thing Im doing :angel:
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Also, there's no such thing as maintaining a high-speed, high-G turn. A high-speed, high-G turn inevitably turns into a low-speed, low-G turn. Unless you're going nose-low in a descending spiral you're just going to bleed off your speed if you try to make any sort of sustained maneuver at high speeds. And if I'm in my F4U and I encounter a Zero, I'm NEVER going to try to turn with him at any speed for that very reason. If I start to go nose low to maintain that high-speed fight, he can very easily just grab instead and get above me, where I DEFINITELY don't want him to be. The only time you'll see me do this is if I have no other options and I'm just trying to get out alive.
Don't try to flat-turn an opponent you know is going to be able to beat you in a sustained turning contest. It's a s simple as that. As has been said: Use the vertical. Every F4U but the -1 Birdcage should out-vertical the Zero. The A6M5 has a marginal advantage over the 1A/C/D in sustained climb, (less than 500fpm, and only up through 10,000ft) but it's close enough that the Corsair's power and E retention gives her an edge short-term if you have the speed to work with. And if you DO have that speed to work with, then USE it. Stay above him. Extend vertically and try to position yourself directly over him (the closer to vertical your attack is from, the more difficult it is for your target to defend because you can keep him in position just by rolling. Just remember you may have to break off sooner to be able to pull off without overshooting or scrubbing your E at the bottom). And if you're in a -4 he'll NEVER catch you going uphill unless you've screwed up and let him bleed your speed
Again, as someone else said, work to your plane's strengths. To put a finer point on it, work to your plane's strengths against the opponent you're facing. If you're faster than and out-vertical Plane B, and Plane B can out-turn you, then that tells you right away to keep the fight uphill and don't close into any sort of sustain turning fight. However if Plane C comes along that's faster but you can out-turn HIM, you want to drag him in close.
That's one of the beautiful things about the F4U, is that there's really not an opponent that she doesn't have SOME sort of advantage over. There's some that blur the line--F6Fs are very similar aircraft with most of the same strengths and weaknesses, although the F4U has a marginal edge in most categories; and I still maintain that a very well-flown Ki-84 is THE most dangerous opponent for the Corsair--but the F4U's flexibility and capability to switch between BnZ and TnB with ease is just one more tool in the box to take advantage of. However in the case of pure turn-fighters like the Zero, Spit I, Hurricanes, Brewster and F4Fs you DON'T want to try to enter any sort of sustained maneuvering engagement as once you wear out your E, they'll all out-turn you and you're in for a world of trouble. Against a P-51, P-47 or 190, if you can drag them into a close-range fight you'll chew them up (but keep in mind, they're going to treat you EXACTLY how you'd treat that Zeke).
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Thanks Sax,
The scenario I was describing was pretty much a desperate (or close to it) one.
The nose slightly low turn at 400 plus MPH I thought could be a good maneuver if someone was on my six. If they are determined to get the kill and are going to chase me down a zeke or 109 or something like that will have a tougher time staying with me if I can maintain that speed while pulling close to 6g's. I have managed to maintain a close to 6g turn for a couple of continuous turns and maintain about 420+ offline. I haven't tried that online because I've just now considered it. Pulling that many g's a plane behind me trying to follow, shoot and, pull as much can't hit me unless they kill their speed. If they did I would think that still being at 400+ I would have the option to extend or go vertical. I've flown the Ki-84 and at high speed; If I remember it can't pull more then 5g's at that speed.
It definitely seems that I can't come all the way around to be at a low AOT but, if one of these planes were to follow me in to that and I reversed using the F4U's ability to get slow and either go up or roll over on top of them well..... I thought maybe that would work.
:salute
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Thanks Sax,
The scenario I was describing was pretty much a desperate (or close to it) one.
The nose slightly low turn at 400 plus MPH I thought could be a good maneuver if someone was on my six. If they are determined to get the kill and are going to chase me down a zeke or 109 or something like that will have a tougher time staying with me if I can maintain that speed while pulling close to 6g's. I have managed to maintain a close to 6g turn for a couple of continuous turns and maintain about 420+ offline. I haven't tried that online because I've just now considered it. Pulling that many g's a plane behind me trying to follow, shoot and, pull as much can't hit me unless they kill their speed. If they did I would think that still being at 400+ I would have the option to extend or go vertical. I've flown the Ki-84 and at high speed; If I remember it can't pull more then 5g's at that speed.
It definitely seems that I can't come all the way around to be at a low AOT but, if one of these planes were to follow me in to that and I reversed using the F4U's ability to get slow and either go up or roll over on top of them well..... I thought maybe that would work.
:salute
Ahh I get what your talking about now, you could do that but theres a good chance he'll still be somewhere on your tail at the end of it, and if they really want to pull more gs they could just use trim and you still won't have enough e to get out of guns range. Just seems a lot of hassle to blow all your alt to maybe get 1 guy off your tail.
Probably be better taking bigrat up on the training offer and spending the time there mate. :salute
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That diving spiral is more or less a move of last resort to keep them from drawing a bead in hopes you can gain enough separation to straighten out and motor away. Ideally you want get them out of phase and work it so that you extend in the OPPOSITE direction your opponent is facing. However this is a defensive move and you don't have many options to re-engage directly from it unless your opponent makes a really bad mistake such as an overshoot. Once you commit to this your best hope is to shake them off so you can withdraw and re-enter the fight from a better position. You can use a low-AoA high-speed climb once you have some room to straighten out (with gunnery in here, you want at LEAST 1000yds separation). You may not climb as high, but the F4U can hold on to airspeed for a LONG time like this, and really scoot away from slower opponents--even those who will out-climb you like the Spits. IF you have sufficient airspeed and separation.
Keep in mind that while this may work in a large fight where there are other targets your opponent needs to contend with (particularly those at co-alt or above) and can't devote himself to chasing you down, (granted if he DOES get fixated and you have a friendly nearby, you CAN use this to initiate a drag-and-bag....) in a 1v1 he can just pull out and pursue you from a perch which puts you in very little of a better position than when he was D800 on your Six and closing.
Another option is a situation I was in tonight:
The skies were completely clear in all directions, above and below, while I'm searching for a target near an enemy airfield. All the sudden I look back and have a 109G-14 about 800yds out and closing (no idea WHERE he came from, either. There wasn't so much as a dot in all directions for the time I was circling, with plenty of checks to the rear and rocking to clear my Low-6).
Priority 1: React to the immediate threat.
I snapped into a low-yo to the left, turning back into him to throw off his attack run. I was cruising level, so had a decent amount of speed (gotta love the 350mph cruise speed on the F4U) and couldn't get my flaps out. The G-14 attempted to turn with me. I was still in his front arc, but had prevented him from gaining a clear guns solution and spoiled the bounce.
Priority 2: Reverse the bastage.
The 109 was now within 400yds, but unable to pull lead. I continued through my low-yo (it ended up as almost an oblique Split-S) into a high one. The G-14 continued to follow, and we ended up in a looping fight. As we continued looping I continually made alterations to my bank angle. Sometimes I came more straight over the top, others I was in more of an oblique/high-yo. By now our airspeeds were dropping and as I was able to bring my flaps into play I started pulling around on him. The 109 did the smart thing: He broke off and grabbed out. Had he not, I was maybe a loop or two from being able to roll over into a guns solution and a victory. A G-14 WILL out-climb the 1-series Hogs (I was in my 1A) and I had no intention of trying to follow him up, so I unloaded my flaps and turned for home in a shallow climb, watching him all the way and waiting for him to try coming back in (he didn't and decided to pick on a friendly that arrived shortly after we separated instead).
Do NOT stay defensive. If you stay on the defensive, you're only delaying the inevitable. The only defensive maneuver you should make is that first one to avoid the initial attack. Once you clear his first pass the next thing on your mind should be, "How do I get on HIS Six from here?" It could be dragging him into a looping fight, or extending out in a shallow high-speed climb to neutralize his E and altitude advantage. Diving out with a spiral is purely defensive. That's not to say there's situations not to use it (I do myself if I'm in a really bad position and out of options) but it should definitely not be your first move as there's very few places you can go to reverse the situation.
...and I reversed using the F4U's ability to get slow...
Again, you do NOT want to use that capability against the Zeke. Stay. Fast.
Depending on the stick you MIGHT be able to pull it off against a Ki-84 as your flaps can come out well before his can and the Corsair has a very good instantaneous turn on that first notch, but you damn well better make that first shot count. Against 109s it really depends on the type. The E and F both turn too well so again, don't get slow if you can avoid it and stay fast. The G-series, especially the G-14, you can take a chance with. The K-4 is more often than not going to treat you like a Zero and use climb and speed to try to keep you away. Against most pilots if you drag him in close you can dice him up if he tries turning with you, but if you've got an Experten on your hands he's going to vertical you to death so be VERY careful trading off your airspeed against the K-4. Remember the 1-series Hogs don't recover E very easily if you give it up, so once you decide to get slow you're basically committed to it until the fight is over. This is why I prefer to keep her fast and high in large fights.
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I the desperate situation you describe, your best bet for getting out of trouble is to put your nose down and get your speed up.
That said, I'd be putting my nose down the absolute minimum I had to. I want the speed, and need the separation, but I sure don't want to blow whatever alt I have. Diving out hard gives me the escape, but doesn't let me set up for the kill.
Coupled with putting my nose down a tad, I'm doing some slight, random, scissoring. Just enough to dodge the shots, not enough to create an overshoot.
In a "very" desperate situation, I might do a hard scissor or two, just to get him out of sync with me, before I drop my nose and go back to plan "A". Every hard turn i make is detrimental to my survival in that situation, even if it's absolutely necessary initially. If it takes two hard turns to survive, three will probably get me kilt... Again, no attempt at an overshoot here... I'm not trying to kill him, or keep the fight in close, or get behind him for a shot; I'm trying to mess up his shot so I can live long enough to get some speed.
If I can get into a subtle dive, with him following, all's going well. Now, what I don't want him to do is break off and up. I want him to tail-chase me, as I level out (out of guns-range) in front of him, and begin to build enough separation to go vertical. That sets up a rope or slashing attack, depending on whether he follows me up. Once we're in a level chase, I can raise my nose a bit, as long as I maintain 300mph. This allows me to climb, at a speed that he can't maintain, even in level flight. He'll slow down, fall behind (I like to see the icon read +1.5K before I go vertical) and be in trouble. Following gets him killed, and turning away gets him killed. This works on spits too, but I'd like 325mph for the Spit16.
This type of a fight is capitalizing on my speed advantage, and my ability to maneuver better than him at high speed. It's taking advantage of his inability to maintain that speed, or to maneuver well at that speed. Just because I'm doing that, though, doesn't mean I'm trying to out-turn him at that speed.
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Thanks for your thoughts Pervert I've already sent BigRat a pm on when I can meet up w/him.
Sax, thanks for so much time and detail on the subject. I appreciate it. I agree that one of the best ways to avoid the situation to begin with is to stay fast in the F4U and keep your SA up. I am normally pretty good at maintaining my E in a fight one on one but, in some of the larger engagements where this trouble is more likely to happen I bleed too much speed looking around or, take too long to get my kill. Then, someone's on my 6 and I'm in trouble.....
Also, thanks Mtnman. I guess part of my problem is worrying too much about the reversal and trying to get a shot at him when I should just be doing my best to get out and reset the fight or come back another day. If he follows or turns away too soon I can reverse and kill him but, if he has friends that way it's best I come back another time.
:salute
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My question is: How can you maintain a high G turn at very high speeds; generally 400+ MPH. This is somewhat of a "re hash" of a question that I've asked on the BBS before but, maybe I didn't ask it/word it correctly. I still got some great information but came away with the feeling that most thought it was not useful in the MA as a tactic to get to a rear hemisphere shooting solution or, maybe any shooting solution on most planes that turn well at lower speeds(zeke/Spit?/109,Ki-84, others?). This is different then going straight down to "dive out" at compression speed hoping the other plane brakes or, the downward spiral tactic where you're pointed straight down but trying to go slower hoping the other guy overshoots. This would be helpful for planes like the F4U/P-51/P-40; planes that were known for their ability to turn well and maintain control at high speeds.
Offline I took an F4U up to 11K and put the nose down slightly to get my speed up to 400MPH. I then rolled 90degrees and let the nose remain slightly angled down. I maintained my turn over 400MPH riding the very edge of the blackout. I was able to get 2 complete turns out of the plane at over 400MPH. I lost about 6.5-7K of altitude from when I started my turn at about 10k. I maintained slightly more than 400Mph the entire time. But would this be enough to get me "around" on the planes I listed earlier? With practice has anyone done this and gotten 3 or 4 circles; and is it worth it? I understand a better low speed turning plane could stay a little slower and cut the corner for a shot but, if he missed maybe it would be the only chance he had and I would have more E and be able to go vertical and come down on top of him?
Here is an excerpt from "Fire in the Sky" written by Eric M. Bergerud from an interview with Joel Paris an ace with the 49th Fighter Group's 7th Squadron in New Guinea; he flew the P-40 early in the war: "If you knew what you were doing you could fight a Jap on even terms, but you had to make him fight your way. He could outturn you at slow speed. You could outturn him at high speed. When you got in a turning fight with him, you dropped your nose down so you kept your airspeed up, you could outturn him. At low speed he could outroll you because of those big ailerons; they looked like barn doors on the Zero. If your speed was up over 275, you could outroll it. His big ailerons didn't have the strength to make high-speed rolls; it was like they were set in concrete."
Maybe this better illustrates what I mean by outturning a known T-n-B plane at high speeds.
Some interesting replys to this and some misperceptions. First, start with looking at the physics of the issue and similar vice dissimilar aircraft.
The first question is how do you maintain a 400mph high G turn? Noah has it exactly right, the only way to do this with a WWII aircraft is a nose-low turn. WWII aircraft do not have the excess power required to sustain a six G level turn so it must be nose-low to maintain speed and G.
This really leads to the "why" would you do this question. Remember that if you're above your aircraft's corner velocity (as 400mph is) you are limited to a 6G turn as is every other AH aircraft. Turn rate and radius is determined by the G you're pulling and your speed so, if you're both pulling 6G at 400mph your turns are exactly the same. OK, so if both aircraft perform the same here is there an defensive advantage? Yes there is if the bandit is already in guns range but there's also a caveat. In order to pull lead the bandit will have to pull greater G than you and, since you're both limited to the same 6Gs, it's impossible for him to do that provided you stay at 6G. Essentially this means you're in a stalemate, the "caveat" comes in you realize that you don't have unlimited altitude to convert to sustain the G so something is going to have to happen otherwise you'll end up on the deck with the bandit in the same guns position he occupied before you started your high-speed spiral. You can put off the inevitable and "hope" that help arrives or the bandit decides he doesn't want to use up all his altitude in pursuit. As we all know "hope" is not a plan (or political strategy) so you need to consider other options such as starting the high-speed spiral and, once the bandit is committed to follow, chop your throttle and skid the plane to slow to corner velocity with the idea of tightening your turn while the bandit keeps going balls to the wall forcing an overshoot.
There are three different outcomes that are possible when it comes to dissimilar aircraft:
--First, there are high high-speed maneuvering limits for some aircraft such as two mentioned, the 109 and Zeke. Both of these aircraft stiffen up at high speeds and are forced to throttle back or bring the nose up to maintain control so the high-speed spiral can take away angles and gain separation.
--Second, is relative Ps. We know all the WWII aircraft will have negative Ps in a 6G turn so have to go nose-low to sustain it but consider a pony vs a hurricane. Both can sustain 400mph turns with identical rates and radius but they are at different nose-low positions. The Hurri's more negative Ps means he will have to have his nose lower to sustain the turn than the Pony which means the Hurri will be trading altitude for E at a higher rate. The Hurri cannot get a shot due to his G limit and the Pony will gain an altitude and E advantage. Either the Hurri will hit the deck first or the Pony will gain sufficient altitude/E advantage that he can transition to a vertical or separation/pitchback fight.
--The third outcome is arcing. Pulling sustained G's above corner velocity creates a condition known as arcing. That is, you're not turning at your best possible turn rate, your radius is pretty large, and your flight path describes a large, gentle arc in the sky. You're neither gaining angles or separation and bandits can simply operate inside of your turn. Let's go back to the Hurri vs Pony. A smart Hurri will NOT follow a Pony into a high-speed spiral and play the Pony's game. Generally speaking the Hurri has two options. He can sustain 6G but keep his nose up a bit so he bleeds to near his corner velocity rather than sustain 400mph. He then lowers his nose to sustain corner. He will then have a higher rate and smaller radius and will simply turn a tighter circle inside of the Pony's. He will lose altitude quicker than the Pony but he'll gain angles putting him at a position well inside the Pony's turn and a bit lower. Once he gains this position he then goes for his shot leveling his wings a bit and pulling up into the shot. The disadvantage of this approach is that it's a bit difficult to maintain sight of the Pony because it's under his nose. The Pony could reverse and extend and the Hurri not see this in time. The other slightly different option for the Hurri is to again let the Pony arc but pull up into a quick high yo-yo to slow to near corner (for best turn rate and radius) and overbank to put his nose in front of the Pony. (It's important the Hurri doesn't go too high in his yo-yo because that'll let the Pony gain separation even if he is arcing.) The Hurri then dives back down in a low yo-yo and accelerates while cutting across the Pony's arc to go to where the Pony will be. When he arrives there he may have a crossing shot opportunity, if it doesn't look like he's going to have it then he repeats the yo-yo and continues. The downside here is a smart Pony can avoid this by turning to keep the Hurri directly on his six when he tries to high yo-yo. The Pony can then extend away creating separation. Notice that in both of these counters the Pony MUST stop arcing.
So to directly answer the OP's questions. The only way to sustain a 400mph, 6G turn is nose low. No, this sort of turn will not "get you around" on someone's six because you are not flying your best turn rate/radius. If the bandit has a high-speed deficiency than you can use the high-speed turn to redefine the fight and get him off your six but the turn alone doesn't equate to "getting around". High speed fighting should be done at or near your corner velocity for best turn-rate and radius, above that and you're arcing with few advantages except in a limited set of circumstances. Sustained high-speed turns (even at corner) all have a clock running on them called altitude. There's only so much turning you can do before Mother Earth interceds so it's best to think ahead and plan for what you're going to do next.
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While not directly what the OP was asking, I frequently see comments regarding "planning ahead" vs "reacting". Planning or thinking ahead is NOT the same thing as scripting a fight and it certainly doesn't preclude reacting to what the bandit does, consider it more as a "gameplan" than a script. First, you must know what your airplane is capable of and what all the potential bandits can do. Second, it's quickly evaluating the tactical situation, i.e., relative altitude, position, E and aircraft capabilities. Third, and this is the gameplan part of it, is determining what approach you're going to take in the fight. It's not scripting out every single move of a fight, that's not going to work, it's knowing what you're trying to achieve and how best to do that.
Say you're a single fighter vs a single bandit that is co-altitude and E. You're in a Pony, he's in a Hurri so what do you already know? You know you're faster, and can climb better but he'll outturn you and has a killer knock out punch. You also know the Hurri can dive real well so disengaging will be difficult unless you have a significant E advantage....on the other hand, you know the Hurri can't get away from you. You're sure the Hurri will want an angles fight and will try to intimidate you with his nose so you immediately choose an energy fight and lower your nose to trade a bit of altitude for speed. You already know how you want this fight to progress even before the merge. Because the Hurri has a smaller turn radius you know you want to force a two-circle fight to keep him outside of your turn circle. You want an energy fight so you know you want to use your most efficient and effective turn rates so you want to work around your corner velocity and use no more than one notch of flaps. You'll also want to work with your nose higher than the Hurri's to build an altitude advantage and that you want to minimize his shot opportunities with his 20mm guns. You also expect that he'll shoot at any opportunity so you're always prepared to jink to avoid any forward quarter shots he does take.
So, now take it a step further. You're above corner, your merge will be from low to high and you'll force the two circle. The nose-high merge will convert speed to altitude and give you a very good turn rate near corner while letting you observe what the Hurri does. If he accepts your two-circle fight then continue your fight, if he reverses and forces a one-circle fight then roll-out, unload and extend to redefine the fight as an extension pitchback. Say he accepts the two-circle fight you immediately start looking ahead toward the next merge and focus on his nose position relative to yours. If you see that he's inside your turn radius with only a few angles you know that the Hurri has a smart pilot and this is going to take a while. He's aware of his E state and isn't selling everything for angles. On the other hand, maybe you see him well inside your turn circle with 45 deg of angles. Those angles had to come from somewhere and that's E. The Hurri has the stick back in his lap and is selling everything to get angles and a quick shot. You continue your direction of turn to maintain the two-circle fight and start to work the turns into alternating high and low yo-yo's. Low yo-yo's let you accelerate to above corner and high yo-yo's take you back down to corner while minimizing your turn radius. If he has lots of angles (maybe his flaps are starting down) you know he's below 150 while you're still at 225, you've got a large energy advantage which is what you're looking for. On the next merge you really unload and accelerate with wep into the merge and, at the merge you level your wings and go pure vertical. The Hurri will either follow into a rope or try to dive away. In either case he's used most of his E. If he follows you up in the rope, drag him up. When he falls off, you drop in and nail him. If he runs, you immediately reverse, drop in, and nail him.
The point to the above isn't to discuss Pony vs Hurricane tactics, it's just to illustrate a throught process and decisions a pilot could make, that's what's meant by planning ahead. The best pilots never just "react". If that where true then they're allowing the other pilot to define the fight. Many good sticks that claim that they just react are oversimplifying what they're doing, perhaps without even thinking about it. While not consciously thinking through each step they have learned what choices a bandit has and how to force him into bad choices. One of the simplist examples of planning ahead is the low to high merge. By diving down a fighter gains speed which he then converts to altitude and turn rate after the merge while the bandit is forced into a nose low merge forcing him to fight G to get the nose back up. If the bandit stays level he give up angles. If he goes up then he's turning in front of the fighter and the fighter will be behind his 3-9 line as they both go up. When a bandit makes a mistake the good stick isn't surprised because he's been working to force that mistake so expects it and reacts to it quickly and efficiently to achieve a kill. This isn't much different than calling a play in football. The quarterback knows what options the defense has given the offensive play call so looks to where the defense has given an opportunity and reacts to it. From a training perspective, new sticks need to force themselves to consciously think ahead...if I do this, what options does that give him? How will I respond to each of these options? They need to work on this until it becomes second nature. Being one, two or even three steps ahead of the bandit is really what differentiates a good stick from an average or poor one.
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God Bless U Mace! You nailed it; this is what I was getting at. I never go in to a fight planning to have someone 800 off my dead 6 but, it happens plenty(even to good sticks at time) so what are some things I can do? That was my planning part, it's only if it happens against my intentions. The high g turn/spiral would be one possibility I would have considered, there would also have to be a plan b and, maybe a plan c. However, if I can't be sure that anyone of them will work or what to look for during the maneuver how can I manage the fight at all.
In your first reply the first part of your answer is also what I was looking for. The possibility to gain separation; can it work and what are some things I should look for? I kept thinking (even though several in this thread thought in not wise or possible) that considering the tendency of some planes to aileron lock or, not be able to pull more than 5g's this strategy could work to at least gain separation if not a firing solution. Then I could exit the fight and come back on my terms or, just go home if I'm outmatched. If they do start to gain angles on me then they've probably "sold out" in some area. They've slowed significantly in which case they may be able to get a shot but it also may allow me to go vertical on them or at least make an obleak reversal. If they don't follow me then my maneuver has worked! It got them off of my 6 which was the whole reason for the maneuver in the first place.
In my very first question I asked about being able to get 3 or 4 turns and maintain that high g turn; had anyone been able to do it in the F4U and how? I would only continue a turn like that if it was working to my advantage; getting me the separation/angle that I wanted. If my opponent didn't buy it or if it's somehow not working it's time for plan b.....Whatever that is....???
Again Mace thanks!!!
:rock
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Very nice writing Mace! :aok