Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Pyro on May 03, 2010, 11:15:30 AM
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Brit sniper kills 2 Taliban from 8120 feet (1.54 miles, 2707 yards) with a .338 Lapua Mag. :O :salute
LINK
(http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Afghanistan-Sniper-Corporal-Of-Horse-Craig-Harrison-Sets-Record-After-Killing-Taliban/Article/201005115624184?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15624184_Afghanistan%3A_Sniper_Corporal_Of_Horse_Craig_Harrison_Sets_Record_After_Killing_Taliban/)
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Corporal of Horse Craig Harrison fired his consecutive shots from such a long distance that they took almost three seconds to reach their targets.
thats a long way :o
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:rock :salute
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it took the round just over 6 seconds to reach its target. what a shot!
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:O
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What does "Corporal of Horse" mean?
Now I can't get the "Mr. Ed" theme song out of my head, of course! :banana:
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I believe that means he is a Corporal in a Cavalry Regiment.
Equivilent to SGT in other regiments if I remember correctly.
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:O
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Brit sniper kills 2 Taliban from 8120 feet (1.54 miles, 2707 yards) with a .338 Lapua Mag. :O :salute
LINK
(http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Afghanistan-Sniper-Corporal-Of-Horse-Craig-Harrison-Sets-Record-After-Killing-Taliban/Article/201005115624184?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15624184_Afghanistan%3A_Sniper_Corporal_Of_Horse_Craig_Harrison_Sets_Record_After_Killing_Taliban/)
Crist o' mighty. talking about reaching out and touch somebody. :eek:
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ewwwwwwwww 338 lapua runs shivers up and down my spine!
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Brit sniper kills 2 Taliban from 8120 feet (1.54 miles, 2707 yards) with a .338 Lapua Mag. :O :salute
LINK
(http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Afghanistan-Sniper-Corporal-Of-Horse-Craig-Harrison-Sets-Record-After-Killing-Taliban/Article/201005115624184?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15624184_Afghanistan%3A_Sniper_Corporal_Of_Horse_Craig_Harrison_Sets_Record_After_Killing_Taliban/)
:O :O :O :O :O :O :O :O
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What does "Corporal of Horse" mean?
Now I can't get the "Mr. Ed" theme song out of my head, of course! :banana:
It's equivalent to Sergeant, but because Sergeant means servant, the household cavalry have no sergeants.
Outstanding Marksmanship, and two consecutive kille shots proved its no fluke :rock :rock :rock :rock :salute
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The "almost 3 seconds" time of flight in the article sounds like the reporter is just dividing the distance by the muzzle velocity. There's a little more to it than that unless he was shooting in a vacuum. :lol The article also makes it sound like the bullet only dropped 6 feet.
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yeah baby.
British sniper with a British made weapon. I'm feeling very patriotic right now.
And the sniper in question is from my home town.
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Very impressive!
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ewwwwwwwww 338 lapua runs shivers up and down my spine!
I was watching top sniper rifles last week on Military Channel. Lots of info on that bullet and the guns built to use it. Yeah, that bullet is one mean SOB.
WTG on the shots.
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wonder how many crates he had to get, for being on sky news
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The "almost 3 seconds" time of flight in the article sounds like the reporter is just dividing the distance by the muzzle velocity. There's a little more to it than that unless he was shooting in a vacuum. :lol The article also makes it sound like the bullet only dropped 6 feet.
Maybe the Brits have some kind of anti-gravity tech in there bullets they aren't telling us about.
:noid
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the shot was taken in November of 2009 in Afghanistan.
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:salute :cheers:
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where does SKYNEWS get there info. some of there info seems misleading.
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Pyro,you realize now some poor Canuk boy will have to get the record back!
Thats an awesome shot and not that I'd want to be anywhere near there it would be sort of cool to see a target drop then several seconds later here the report of the weapon.
:salute
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where does SKYNEWS get there info. some of there info seems misleading.
Was in a News paper today also, I read the paper at my parents house and when i got home to check the bbs Pyro had posted the story up also. Contained all the same facts and figures..so not sure where they got it, unless the daily mail is owned by sky.
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Wow.... Very nice.
I can hear the convo now.... how ard you doeeng.... I am.... oh my gooness... hajeeb your head exploded. :x
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Wow.... Very nice.
I can hear the convo now.... how ard you doeeng.... I am.... oh my gooness... hajeeb your head exploded. :x
:noid
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I've never picked you for a vet/cop Pyro........... But you make some interesting points.....
The "almost 3 seconds" time of flight in the article sounds like the reporter is just dividing the distance by the muzzle velocity. There's a little more to it than that unless he was shooting in a vacuum. :lol The article also makes it sound like the bullet only dropped 6 feet.
To the rest of you......... Let's do trivia.............
Slope of the Earth is fixed to 90 degrees, no wind. 2 snipers, 1 holding a bullet, 1 holding a Kate. Kate fires and bullet drops out of hand at the same time......................... Which hits the ground first?
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I've never picked you for a vet/cop Pyro........... But you make some interesting points.....
To the rest of you......... Let's do trivia.............
Slope of the Earth is fixed to 90 degrees, no wind. 2 snipers, 1 holding a bullet, 1 holding a Kate. Kate fires and bullet drops out of hand at the same time......................... Which hits the ground first?
Depends on the range you fired at, and the height of the drop.
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yeah baby.
British sniper with a British made weapon. I'm feeling very patriotic right now.
And the sniper in question is from my home town.
Looks Forward to Swoop's " Dedication babe" for this week...... Gonna be a "Killer" Huh Swoop....? :aok
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I've never picked you for a vet/cop Pyro........... But you make some interesting points.....
To the rest of you......... Let's do trivia.............
Slope of the Earth is fixed to 90 degrees, no wind. 2 snipers, 1 holding a bullet, 1 holding a Kate. Kate fires and bullet drops out of hand at the same time......................... Which hits the ground first?
Assuming the rifle muzzle and the dropped bullet are at the same height, and that the rifle's trajectory is perfectly parallel to the earth, and that the earth is flat not round, they would hit the ground at exactly the same time.
I thought that Isaac Newton figured this out hundreds of years ago. :rolleyes:
In real life the dropped bullet would hit first though, due to the curvature of the earth giving the fired bullet slightly further to fall.
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Assuming the rifle muzzle and the dropped bullet are at the same height, and that the rifle's trajectory is perfectly parallel to the earth, and that the earth is flat not round, They would hit the ground at exactly the same time.
In real life the dropped bullet would hit first though, due to the curvature of the earth giving the fired bullet slightly further to fall.
Wrong :) common mistake though.
You assume the bullet flies perfectly through it's trajectory.
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Wrong :) common mistake though.
You assume the bullet flies perfectly through it's trajectory.
Yes I did, since I was already assuming we are in a vacuum and that the earth is flat I figured that was a given. Besides in a vacuum it would follow a perfect trajectory.
In the real world I would say that I don't know, there are just to many variables to guess at.
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Yes I did, since I was already assuming we are in a vacuum and that the earth is flat I figured that was a given. Besides in a vacuum it would follow a perfect trajectory.
In the real world I would say that I don't know, there are just to many variables to guess at.
I wasn't assuming a vacuum :)
In the real world depending on the range of the shot bullets go into a nose up attitude, this generates a miniscule amount of lift, but enough to make the dropped bullet hit the ground first.
If the barrel was parallel to the ground an relatively close to the ground the bullet probably wouldn't get to this stage of flight.
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I wasn't assuming a vacuum :)
In the real world depending on the range of the shot bullets go into a nose up attitude, this generates a miniscule amount of lift, but enough to make the dropped bullet hit the ground first.
If the barrel was parallel to the ground an relatively close to the ground the bullet probably wouldn't get to this stage of flight.
Also if fired close to the ground the bullet would gain some minuscule amount of lift from ground effect, would it not? Or would the rotation of the bullet negate any lift effect? I don't know. :headscratch:
All these variables just go to show what an amazing feat a 1.5 mile shot is, truly amazing even with modern rangefinders and pocket computers that one could pull that off.
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He dare nearly got killed him self, "In a remarkable tour of duty, he cheated death a few weeks later when a Taliban bullet pierced his helmet but was deflected away from his skull."
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Very minuscule, and only for a few hundred yards..............
Also if fired close to the ground the bullet would gain some minuscule amount of lift from ground effect, would it not? Or would the rotation of the bullet negate any lift effect? I don't know. :headscratch:
All these variables just go to show what an amazing feat a 1.5 mile shot is, truly amazing even with modern rangefinders and pocket computers that one could pull that off.
You sir are correct about my question. And sorry for not including the generic data for dropping / firing. Figured it to be moot. (not m00t)
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Sierra Hotel Cpl. Well done. :salute
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I call BS on this story completely...and I have shot the Lap 338 out to 1000 yards...
A simple look at the 338 Lapua Ballistics tables tells one that the Lap338 drop at 1000 yards (less than half the distance claimed) is 147 inches at a 3000 fps muzzle velocity given a 250 grain BT projectile...
I can't even find ballistics calculations beyond 1800 meters for the Lap because its down range foot pounds of energy drops of the cliff...its wind drift becomes untenable and its trajectory becomes ballistic...
The article claims the sniper made contact downrange at 2.7 times the ballistics stated above of 1000 yards...given the fact that bullet drop acceleration is directly proportional to time and the gravitational constant of 9.8 meters/second squared...that would put the bullet drop for this shot at well over 425 inches or 35'...using a 250 grain bullet pushing 3000 fps mv...and that is smoking super pumped up hand load stuff...that is pushing the limits of known shoulder fired Lapua guns today...
Further...a 250 grain Lap338 round leaving at 3000 fps mv will drift nearly 5 feet in a 10 knot cross wind at 1000 yards...
Here are some ballistics charts on the Lapua 338 300 grain round (pumped at 2800 mv)...after you look at these and if you understand ballistics...you will realize that either the reporter who documented this is wrong...or the claim is flat out false...
More likely this shot was made with a 50 cal...and not a Lap 338...and even then..it would be a near record for shoulder fired center fire arms in terms of confirmed kills....
Oneway
These charts are the Lapua 338 at 2800 MV for a 300 grain load (that is max MV for the 300)
Please take note of the crosswind 10kt drift at 1600 meters for the Lap...and pay particular attention to the parabolic nature of the graph...
Nobody took out a raghead at 2500 meters with a Lap 338...
Total BS....
(http://www.imt.net/~mele/images/tajectory.gif)
(http://www.imt.net/~mele/images/energy.gif)
(http://www.imt.net/~mele/images/drift.gif)
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Onway, is it possible that the military have a special design 338 that is not sold to the public?
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Bah, charts be damned, we're talking about the real world. Afghanistan is in the real world not some stinkin' chart.
Sure the reporter could have got it wrong, but I think it's possible.
I've seen video of a Barrett .416 target testing at 2000m, according to your charts (I'd guess it falls between the .50 BMG and the .338) that's questionable, yet in the real world it's doable. Also that one bald guy on that one cable TV show hit targets at 2500yds with a CheyTac .408. It's on Youtube somewhere.
Is the Lapua .338 really that inferior to a Barrett .416 or CheyTac .408?
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Onway, is it possible that the military have a special design 338 that is not sold to the public?
The longest confirmed shots on hvt's using the 50 bmg round are varied...they run around 2200-2500 meters..
I can assure you that the Lapua will not challenge that record anytime soon...before that happens the Chey Tac will be knocking...
This never happened...at least not the way the article describes it...
The Lapua round opens up opportunity in the 1000-1500 meter range above its typical competitors being the win 300 mag and others...
The Lap is a big game gun on steroids...its not an uber sniper weapon and it will never ever in a million years come close to what the BMG or Chey Tac can do...
This article claims the Lap killed at 2.4K meters...Never happened...total BS...that would have challenged the BMG and Chey...sorry not buying it
Do your own ballistics on a 300 grain - 2800 fps hunk of lead slung nearly a mile an half across the planet....it would be coming in like a russian ICBM to get that far...and when it did..it would be traveling at the velocity of an air gun...
Oneway
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OK, what about wind behind the bullet. Could that help lengthening the distance for the bullet to travel? Or even the environment condition?
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OK, what about wind behind the bullet. Could that help lengthening the distance for the bullet to travel? Or even the environment condition?
Wind has Zero effect on ballistics dynamically...once an object (projectile) enters a body of airspace in motion, that object in motion follows the rules of physics....as a pilot I am sure you are aware of this..
And to put things in perspective...10kts of wind relative to a 3000 fps muzzle velocity is the same as comparing 10kts to 2045 mph...
It becomes irrelevant...unless the wind component is at 90 degrees to the flight of the projectile in a horizontal sense...then it becomes quite significant...
But only because that every component of crosswind is constant and applied...
Oneway
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OK, well, i never took physics nor do i know much about bullets ripping through the air. So i can not question that snipers kills or your info but thx for educate me on something new.
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OK, well, i never took physics nor do i know much about bullets ripping through the air. So i can not question that snipers kills or your info but thx for educate me on something new.
Neither did I...
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Neither did I...
LOL, well you sure hell know a lot more than i do.
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It does sound like that story has its facts mixed up. I wonder what the real story is.
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I call BS on this story completely...and I have shot the Lap 338 out to 1000 yards...
how does the energy look if you use 270-300gr CNCd low drag bullets @3,070fps, then adjust for 3,300'ASL, 30degC, 10% humidity?
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Could it be the British Army doesn't want the enemy to know about some sort of secret very long range sniper rifle and they invented the Lapua 338 part of the story?
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If that were the case I doubt we would have heard about it at all.
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Neither did I...
thanks oneway, for showing the ballistic charts :aok I wanted to call BS on the original story, but didn't feel like getting into one of those BB pizzin matches... Some news writer/reporter probably got the numbers wrong, it is pretty easy to do..
:salute RC
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looks like someone has done the calcs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Harrison_%28sniper%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Harrison_%28sniper%29)
The external ballistics software program JBM Ballistics further predicts that the bullets of British high pressure .338 Lapua Magnum cartridges using 16.2 g (250 gr) Lapua LockBase B408 bullets fired at 936 m/s (3,071 ft/s) muzzle velocity under International Standard Atmosphere conditions at 1,043 m (3,422 ft) elevation (air density ρ = 1.069 kg/m3) and assuming a 100 m (109 yd) zero arrive at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) after approximately 6.017 s flight time at 251.8 m/s (826 ft/s) velocity and have dropped 120.95 m (4.762 in) or in angular units 48.9 milliradian (168 MOA) on their way.
16.2g at 250m/s (560mph) is roughly 1KJ (740 ft-lb), still plenty of energy. more than a .357mag at point blank range. the same as say a cricket ball at 180mph. or a baseball at 190mph if you prefer ;)
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how does the energy look if you use 270-300gr CNCd low drag bullets @3,070fps, then adjust for 3,300'ASL, 30degC, 10% humidity?
Never seen a 270 with a 300grain lead and that's all I shoot .Found that a 100grain lead will do more damage to meat anyway .
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I think it is magic.
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They could also be shooting at a higher elevation than there target increasing range? Also i read somewhere being in the mountains the air being thinner plays a key role in the long shots being possible
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Exactly my thought kilo.
If the sniper was considerably higher than the target, shooting downhill, that would reduce the bullet drop considerably. Distance remains the same but the trajectory is different.
Also time of day would make a difference on wind, esp in mountain canyons.
Dawn and dusk can get pretty still.
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Oneway missed the "rested the bipod on the compound wall" part of the story.
:salute Cpl.
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They could also be shooting at a higher elevation than there target increasing range? Also i read somewhere being in the mountains the air being thinner plays a key role in the long shots being possible
shouldn't have been in the mountains. the shot was taken in the Helmand Province
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Hitting his mark twice in fairly quick succession though? :headscratch:
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Oneway you have to also remember what alt they are taking the shot at. The Canadian that had the previous record did the shot at I believe around 10k. When he was interviewed he stated at that alt it was a mixture of the american bullets he was using with his weapon (not sure what he shot with) and the altitude. Altitude he was getting much greater range because of the less dense air.
Yes I know It is the History Channel but they explain what happens at alt and the different effects it has on sniping. It explains how Furlong got the previous record the the factors into it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3jVEB_UiQE
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Hitting his mark twice in fairly quick succession though? :headscratch:
Looks like you ranger boys need to learn a few lessons from us :noid :bolt:
:devil
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Thats a long way for a sniper lol.
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So what scope has 168 MOA adjustments?
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Irrelevant of the weapon used, if he really got two guys at over a mile and a half away in quick succession that's amazing.
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Oneway you have to also remember what alt they are taking the shot at. The Canadian that had the previous record did the shot at I believe around 10k. When he was interviewed he stated at that alt it was a mixture of the american bullets he was using with his weapon (not sure what he shot with) and the altitude. Altitude he was getting much greater range because of the less dense air.
Yes I know It is the History Channel but they explain what happens at alt and the different effects it has on sniping. It explains how Furlong got the previous record the the factors into it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3jVEB_UiQE
The weapon in question was the TAC 50 as for the exact ammo used I'm not sure,2450yds is a long wat down range.For you horse race fans thats 12.1 furlongs.All in all both were incredible shots,glad I'm not the one tasked with that job.
:salute
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Gentlemen...
If anyone still believes the details of this story I offer the following ballistics data for the 338 Lapua Magnum shooting a Sierra 300 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail Matchking projectile with a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps, a zero point at 1500 yards, 10% humidity, 10,000 elevation....
Please note that with zero point (point blank) of 1500, the bullet still drops 1437 inches in the last 1000 yards as the bullet finishes its trajectory down range..
Further, it takes the slug over 4 seconds to travel this distance......
The story is pure hogwash or the reporter didn't get it right or was fed misinformation intentionally...
Trajectory
Input Data
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.700 G1 Caliber: 0.338 in
Bullet Weight: 300.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 2800.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft
Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg
Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Speed: 0.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg
Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 10.0 % Altitude: 10000.0 ft
Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: Yes Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No Include Extra Rows: No
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 47.845 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA
Atmospheric Density: 0.05647 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1077.4 ft/s
Maximum PBR: 360 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 304 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 165 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 4039.6 ft•lbs
Sectional Density: 0.375 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2803.3 2.602 5233.9 0.000 0.0 ***
200 89.4 42.7 1.4 0.7 2610.6 2.423 4539.2 0.222 0.0 0.0
400 159.9 38.2 5.7 1.3 2426.4 2.252 3921.1 0.460 0.0 0.0
600 206.8 32.9 13.2 2.1 2249.8 2.088 3371.2 0.717 0.0 0.0
800 226.1 27.0 24.3 2.9 2080.6 1.931 2883.1 0.994 0.0 0.0
1000 213.2 20.4 39.5 3.8 1918.8 1.781 2452.1 1.295 0.0 0.0
1200 162.5 12.9 59.2 4.7 1764.9 1.638 2074.7 1.621 0.0 0.0
1400 67.0 4.6 84.0 5.7 1619.9 1.504 1747.6 1.976 0.0 0.0
1600 -81.7 -4.9 114.5 6.8 1484.8 1.378 1468.3 2.363 0.0 0.0
1800 -293.5 -15.6 151.1 8.0 1361.3 1.264 1234.3 2.785 0.0 0.0
2000 -580.6 -27.7 194.5 9.3 1251.4 1.162 1043.0 3.246 0.0 0.0
2200 -956.8 -41.5 244.8 10.6 1157.1 1.074 891.8 3.745 0.0 0.0
2400 -1437.2 -57.2 301.9 12.0 1080.4 1.003 777.4 4.284 0.0 0.0
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i am going to take a guess, that is not a full metal jacket bullet
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Gentlemen...
If anyone still believes the details of this story I offer the following ballistics data for the 338 Lapua Magnum shooting a Sierra 300 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail Matchking projectile with a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps, a zero point at 1500 yards, 10% humidity, 10,000 elevation....
etc...
which part(s) of it are you disputing and why?
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The term FMJ means the entire projectile is clad in copper or a copper alloy or equivalent...Hollow Point Match Bullets such as the one used in the calculation are far and away ballisticially superior to FMJ. The small hollow tip traps air and creates in essence a frictionless micro bubble of air at the tip of the bullet, vastly improving the characteristics of the round...
All long range match shooting is done with hollow points, and all branches of our military use HPBT's in their dedicated small caliber sniper weapons, as well as the SDM/SAM weapons (Squad Designated Marksmen, Squad Advanced Marksman) such as the various M16/AR10 variants...
BT stands for boat tail, and describes a bullet that has a slightly tapered rear which is also a feature of long range bullets...
If anyone would like to run their own tables use this link
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi (http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi)
I ran another test using 2500 yards as the zero point...notice that at its apogee, this round is over 83 feet above the line of sight...it is truly a ballistic trajectory not unlike a missile or rocket...
300 grains was chosen over the faster 250 grain slug because the 250 grain slug would scarcely have enough energy to break a window at that range
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2803.3 2.602 5233.9 0.000 0.0 ***
200 227.4 108.6 1.4 0.7 2610.4 2.423 4538.5 0.222 0.0 0.0
400 435.8 104.0 5.7 1.4 2426.0 2.252 3919.8 0.460 0.0 0.0
600 620.6 98.8 13.2 2.1 2249.2 2.088 3369.4 0.717 0.0 0.0
800 777.7 92.8 24.3 2.9 2079.8 1.930 2881.0 0.995 0.0 0.0
1000 902.7 86.2 39.5 3.8 1917.8 1.780 2449.7 1.295 0.0 0.0
1200 989.7 78.8 59.3 4.7 1763.8 1.637 2072.1 1.622 0.0 0.0
1400 1032.0 70.4 84.1 5.7 1618.6 1.502 1744.9 1.977 0.0 0.0 +/-Apogee
1600 1021.1 60.9 114.6 6.8 1483.5 1.377 1465.7 2.364 0.0 0.0
1800 946.8 50.2 151.3 8.0 1359.9 1.262 1231.7 2.787 0.0 0.0
2000 797.2 38.1 194.6 9.3 1249.9 1.160 1040.6 3.247 0.0 0.0
2200 558.4 24.2 244.9 10.6 1155.7 1.073 889.6 3.747 0.0 0.0
2400 215.4 8.6 302.0 12.0 1079.1 1.002 775.5 4.286 0.0 0.0
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meh, you're saying the round drops 7 feet in the time it takes to travel 200 yards?
Hell, I could just walk it over to the bad guy at that rate.
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which part(s) of it are you disputing and why?
It never happened...the story is bogus...I dispute the entire thing.
As I stated earlier: Either the reporter got it wrong, he was fed a line of bull, or he was purposely fed disinformation.
Oneway
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meh, you're saying the round drops 7 feet in the time it takes to travel 200 yards?
Hell, I could just walk it over to the bad guy at that rate.
drop is negative and rise is positive...
What your referring to as 7 feet of drop is 7 feet of rise for the zero point at 1500. In other words the bullet is climbing up hill on its way to apogee before it finally begins it fall back to earth.
Drop is relative to the angle of elevation and the point at which you zero your range...one could say the entire drop is the cumulitive values of rise and drop below LOS (Line of sight)...or you could simplify things and say drop is all that fall below LOS (Zero Point)...
Oneway
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It never happened...the story is bogus...I dispute the entire thing.
again ... based on what?
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The ballistic characteristics of the 338 Lapua Magnum 2500 yards down range
Are you paying attention?
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Here let me help you further understand:
Quote from the article itself - The distance to his two targets was 8,120ft, or 1.54 miles - according to a GPS system - and about 3,000ft beyond the weapon's effective range.
The story reeks of BS and the story itself gives you the necessary information to come to the same conclusion I did, without all of the ballistic gyrations..
:aok
Oneway
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drop is negative and rise is positive...
What your referring to as 7 feet of drop is 7 feet of rise for the zero point at 1500. In other words the bullet is climbing up hill on its way to apogee before it finally begins it fall back to earth.
Drop is relative to the angle of elevation and the point at which you zero your range...one could say the entire drop is the cumulitive values of rise and drop below LOS (Line of sight)...or you could simplify things and say drop is all that fall below LOS (Zero Point)...
Oneway
Fair enough.
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The ballistic characteristics of the 338 Lapua Magnum 2500 yards down range
Are you paying attention?
:rolleyes: once again. what about the ballistics? specifically.
help me out here, even using a lower muzzle velocity of 2800fps (not sure why you'd ignore the MoD figure of 3070fps) your figures show that the bullet will arrive 2400yd downrange packing more KE than a point blank fired .357mag. I'm told that is enough energy to put a guy down.
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Fair enough.
You got it...
Basically bullet drop starts the moment the bullet leaves the muzzle, and accelerates at the gravitational constant of 9.8M/sec*sec (32 fps +-)...
Of course the angle at which the bullet leaves the muzzle relative to horizontal (perpendicular to gravity) also has something to do with it. Bullets shot both 'up hill' and 'down hill' drop less than bullets shot perpendicular to the force of gravity because a component of their trajectory can then be applied to the to or against the force of gravity.
Bullets shot down hill have a minuscule edge over bullets shot up hill because gravity becomes 'negative drag' and the time of flight is reduced...though the advantage as stated earlier is minute...
Oneway
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I think you may be out of your element oneway. As you do not know how many grains are packed in, what kind of powder was used if they used hollow point (which everything I have read is less superior to FMJs in every way other than stopping power) or not, the elevation of the shooter and the elevation of the target, the weather. You do not have enough information to make a for sure assessment of what happened. What you do have is a web site calculator.
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Hmm, as you say, even if it doesn't lose any velocity after leaving the muzzle, at 3100 fps it's going to be affected by gravit to the tune of around 67 meters. (Ghosts of science teachers past heard screaming about mixed units.)
Could he even see over the barrel at that rate?
NOTA BENE - I'm not a shooter, nor do I play one on the internet.
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For anyone interested, 1 of these 2 were likely the rifles that held the Canadian record from back on the Whale Operation in 2002/3 in A-Stan. To answer Morhpiend's question, 750 Gr AMAX would be a reasonable assumption.
(http://www.canadiantactical.ca/Images/McMillan50.jpg)
As for the Brit shot, a big salute, as for .338 Lap that is truly an extremely long range even with the "tee hee" ammo being used. .416 or .408 caliber of rifle would have been impressive enough for an 8000 ft shot.....Top Drawer Lads!
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I found this really cool sight lots of info and history of Snipers, interesting reading for those interested
http://www.snipercountry.com/SnipHistory.asp (http://www.snipercountry.com/SnipHistory.asp)
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I think you may be out of your element oneway. As you do not know how many grains are packed in, what kind of powder was used if they used hollow point (which everything I have read is less superior to FMJs in every way other than stopping power) or not, the elevation of the shooter and the elevation of the target, the weather. You do not have enough information to make a for sure assessment of what happened. What you do have is a web site calculator.
You obviously have read and understand wrong...
and ... have never done any competitive long range shooting...and have never fired the Lap...
It boils down to Ballistic Coefficients...full metal jacket is cute catch phrase for an all clad bullet...
Hollow Point Boat Tail Match bullets far exceed any FMJ offering...
Full Metal Jacket means nothing in terms of terminal velocity and energy....it simply describes the construction of the projectile...
If you want to penetrate Kevlar at close range choose FMJ...if you want bullets that reach far down range and ON target your going to load HPBT and load it up heavy with slow burning powder in a long barrel with slow twist...and your going to shoot for the head or other soft elements of the target...
Further your going to choose Match grade projectiles...projectiles that fall within a very narrow weight range and centric gravity mean...there is a reason why FMJ is not offered in a Match Grade profile...because its a waste of time and money to even contemplate it...
Further still I do not need to know how many grains are 'packed in'...the 338 Lapua like every other round can only be packed so tight...it can only be loaded so far...given the pressures and what not of typical and atypical loads...the 300 grain load is stuck in the 2800 fps neck of the woods...and besides if you were psycho enough to push it north of 2900...it would have very little effect on the terminal ballistics...not enough to over come the obvious BS of a shot whose apogee was 83 feet above the line of sight, and elapsed time to target was around 4.25 seconds...not to mention the article claims that he got off 3 rounds-2 kills and 1 equipment kill....
Now come again...and tell me I am off point...
Oneway
The United States Army uses Sierra 77 grain and Hornady 75 grain HPBT Match Grade bullets for their .223 based variants of SDM/SAM rifles on the M16 platform...utilizing the slow 1:7 twist and slow burning powders such as Varget...the 77/75 grain bullets are the Largest that the 223 can handle...
They DO NOT use FMJ for operators needing to reach out and touch...when utilizing FMJ constructs 99.9% of the time its a 55 grain FMJ-BT slug and its produced by Hornady...and its what the day to day guys get for their M4's...all of the SDM/SDA are rolling with 77's and 75's...
Now if this Knuck is shooting out to 2500 with the Lap he is certainly rolling with HPBT and he is certainly rolling with the heaviest slug the Lap can throw at 300 grains...thus 83 feet vertical displacement and 4.25 seconds eta to target +/-...
Now go ahead and tell me how this guy got 2.5 kills given those params?
Keep the full metal jacket commentary on the Counter Strike forum...while your grabbing the double pistols as T
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Well you can believe it is a impossible shot thats your opinion no I have not fired the lap. You do not have the all the facts on the 2 shots so you can never be a 100% and neither can I. They made it all up oneway for whatever reason. You take the skeptic route and I will take the other. :salute
never played counter strike is it a good game?
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I nailed a hare today @ 100m with my Savage 22 (4x scope), does that count? .... god I love CCI Stingers :D
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Now if this Knuck is shooting out to 2500 with the Lap he is certainly rolling with HPBT and he is certainly rolling with the heaviest slug the Lap can throw at 300 grains...thus 83 feet vertical displacement and 4.25 seconds eta to target +/-...
AI/MoD quote 3070fps which suggests a lighter round than 300gr. plug in 3070fps and (commercially available) Lost River J40 270gr, using local environmental conditions (I just used a clear still day from Khandahar last week) and we get:
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (J) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -2 *** 0 *** 3073.2 2.684 7675.7 0.000 0 ***
100 -0 -0 0 0 2977.7 2.600 7205.9 0.099 0 0
200 -2 -1 1 0 2884.2 2.519 6760.5 0.202 0 0
300 -9 -3 1 0 2792.6 2.439 6338.0 0.307 0 0
400 -20 -5 2 1 2702.9 2.360 5937.2 0.416 0 0
500 -36 -7 4 1 2614.9 2.283 5556.9 0.529 0 0
600 -57 -9 5 1 2528.5 2.208 5196.1 0.646 0 0
700 -83 -11 7 1 2443.9 2.134 4853.8 0.767 0 0
800 -115 -14 10 1 2360.8 2.062 4529.4 0.892 0 0
900 -154 -16 13 1 2279.3 1.990 4222.0 1.021 0 0
1000 -199 -19 16 2 2199.3 1.921 3931.0 1.155 0 0
1100 -251 -22 19 2 2121.0 1.852 3656.0 1.294 0 0
1200 -311 -25 23 2 2044.3 1.785 3396.4 1.438 0 0
1300 -379 -28 28 2 1969.3 1.720 3151.9 1.587 0 0
1400 -457 -31 33 2 1896.2 1.656 2922.0 1.743 0 0
1500 -544 -35 39 2 1824.8 1.594 2706.3 1.904 0 0
1600 -641 -38 45 3 1755.5 1.533 2504.5 2.072 0 0
1700 -750 -42 52 3 1688.2 1.474 2316.3 2.246 0 0
1800 -871 -46 59 3 1623.2 1.417 2141.3 2.427 0 0
1900 -1005 -51 67 3 1560.6 1.363 1979.3 2.616 0 0
2000 -1153 -55 76 4 1500.5 1.310 1829.8 2.812 0 0
2100 -1317 -60 85 4 1443.2 1.260 1692.6 3.016 0 0
2200 -1498 -65 95 4 1388.7 1.213 1567.4 3.229 0 0
2300 -1697 -70 106 4 1337.5 1.168 1453.8 3.449 0 0
2400 -1915 -76 117 5 1289.6 1.126 1351.5 3.678 0 0
2500 -2154 -82 130 5 1245.2 1.087 1260.2 3.915 0 0
2600 -2416 -89 143 5 1204.7 1.052 1179.5 4.161 0 0
2700 -2701 -96 157 6 1168.1 1.020 1108.8 4.415 0 0
thats 1.1KJ KE, and the round is still just supersonic at 2700yd ...
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I found this really cool sight lots of info and history of Snipers, interesting reading for those interested
http://www.snipercountry.com/SnipHistory.asp (http://www.snipercountry.com/SnipHistory.asp)
Nice link 68ZooM , Thanks bro ..
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You obviously have read and understand wrong...
and ... have never done any competitive long range shooting...and have never fired the Lap...
It boils down to Ballistic Coefficients...full metal jacket is cute catch phrase for an all clad bullet...
Hollow Point Boat Tail Match bullets far exceed any FMJ offering...
Full Metal Jacket means nothing in terms of terminal velocity and energy....it simply describes the construction of the projectile...
If you want to penetrate Kevlar at close range choose FMJ...if you want bullets that reach far down range and ON target your going to load HPBT and load it up heavy with slow burning powder in a long barrel with slow twist...and your going to shoot for the head or other soft elements of the target...
Further your going to choose Match grade projectiles...projectiles that fall within a very narrow weight range and centric gravity mean...there is a reason why FMJ is not offered in a Match Grade profile...because its a waste of time and money to even contemplate it...
Further still I do not need to know how many grains are 'packed in'...the 338 Lapua like every other round can only be packed so tight...it can only be loaded so far...given the pressures and what not of typical and atypical loads...the 300 grain load is stuck in the 2800 fps neck of the woods...and besides if you were psycho enough to push it north of 2900...it would have very little effect on the terminal ballistics...not enough to over come the obvious BS of a shot whose apogee was 83 feet above the line of sight, and elapsed time to target was around 4.25 seconds...not to mention the article claims that he got off 3 rounds-2 kills and 1 equipment kill....
Now come again...and tell me I am off point...
Oneway
The United States Army uses Sierra 77 grain and Hornady 75 grain HPBT Match Grade bullets for their .223 based variants of SDM/SAM rifles on the M16 platform...utilizing the slow 1:7 twist and slow burning powders such as Varget...the 77/75 grain bullets are the Largest that the 223 can handle...
They DO NOT use FMJ for operators needing to reach out and touch...when utilizing FMJ constructs 99.9% of the time its a 55 grain FMJ-BT slug and its produced by Hornady...and its what the day to day guys get for their M4's...all of the SDM/SDA are rolling with 77's and 75's...
Now if this Knuck is shooting out to 2500 with the Lap he is certainly rolling with HPBT and he is certainly rolling with the heaviest slug the Lap can throw at 300 grains...thus 83 feet vertical displacement and 4.25 seconds eta to target +/-...
Now go ahead and tell me how this guy got 2.5 kills given those params?
Keep the full metal jacket commentary on the Counter Strike forum...while your grabbing the double pistols as T
I'd believe the Sniper, before yourself. He was firing from an elevated position and you are still going around in circles.
We keep hearing "the story is bogus" from you and not much else. You're too busy playing "know-it-all" to realize two things:
1. He was again, FIRING FROM AN ELEVATED POSITION
2. You don't have a clue on how high up he was. None of us do, but he was not "on the ground".
You need to stop while you think you're ahead.
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I'm enjoying this debate, so lets keep it going. According to the article he aimed 6' high, according to Holmes ballistic tables (unless I'm reading it wrong or my calculator is broken) that round would drop 225'. Discuss.
Holmes could you run a .50bmg round through that program once just for comparison sake?
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the 77/75 grain bullets are the Largest that the 223 can handle...
BTW, I have personally fired 88gr 5.56mm through my AR15. I pretty sure I have heard of 90 gr for the 5.56mm ...
Terror
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I'm enjoying this debate, so lets keep it going. According to the article he aimed 6' high, according to Holmes ballistic tables (unless I'm reading it wrong or my calculator is broken) that round would drop 225'. Discuss.
Holmes could you run a .50bmg round through that program once just for comparison sake?
I believe what the article states is that he "aimed" 6' above target.
I interpret that as he had to place the crosshair 6' above target, meaning the round dropped 6' more then he had elevation adjustment for with his scope.
Put another way he had to aim 6' higher then he had scope adjustment for.
... if the round did only drop 6' then I must again conclude that the British have mini anti-gravity drives embedded in their bullets. :noid
I'm still inclined to believe the story as well, I just watched video of the "Future Weapons" guy nail a target first shot at 2500yds with a Barrett .416, made it look super easy. and that was on the level with target. Even thought the Lapua .338 isn't as good as the .416, it leads me to believe that if you give the .338 a "handicap" so to speak of some significant elevation and perfect atmospheric conditions, it's not at all outside the realm of possibility.
PS I got 3,070 fps muzzle velocity when I googled the Lapua magnum round as well, don't know where oneways 2,800 number came from.
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Lethal just joined ah from fa, he was in Marine 1st recon, he has some good sniping stories. :aok
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I was thinking along those lines as well saggs with the adjustable scope and mil dots. But something about it still bakes my noodle, I wish I was more familiar with the type of optics they use so I could get a better picture in my head. I think what we need is an AH BBS shoot. I'll provide the beer. Can someone else provide the land to shoot on and the $20,000 guns?
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Hollow Point Boat Tail Match bullets far exceed any FMJ offering...
HP bullets are banned from military use under the Hague convention... correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstand that though.
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HP bullets are banned from military use under the Hague convention... correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstand that though.
I think your right, someone must have thought it was not a humane way to shoot someone :lol
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I believe what the article states is that he "aimed" 6' above target.
I interpret that as he had to place the crosshair 6' above target, meaning the round dropped 6' more then he had elevation adjustment for with his scope.
Put another way he had to aim 6' higher then he had scope adjustment for.
yeah thats how I interpreted it. he was also firing from a "ridge" relative to the patrol/target. how high, we dont know, just as we dont know what bullet is loaded in those high pressure .338 cartridges. we also dont know which scope mount hes using, or where his zero range is set. given the mission profiles our snipers have over there, and the great ballistic conditions I'd be amazed if he were zerod at 100yds ...
could he see over the barrel? the scope has 56MOA and the mounts come with options of 18/28/45MOA builtin.
http://www.accuracyinternational.com/products.php (http://www.accuracyinternational.com/products.php)
http://www.schmidtbender.com/PMspecs3_12x50LP.htm (http://www.schmidtbender.com/PMspecs3_12x50LP.htm)
what I do know is that hes a 35yr old Sgt (equiv) in the HC so this will not be his first tour, and that the British Army use sniper overwatch in Afghanistan in preference to CAS because its cheaper/more diplomatic/we have less air resources than US army. many of our snipers are coming home with 20+ kills under their belt, so the army is getting alot of practise, every day, for 8 years, in almost perfect conditions. if you're going to set sniper records, this is the time and place to be doing it.
Holmes could you run a .50bmg round through that program once just for comparison sake?
here ya go :)
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi (http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi)
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I had a 308 but they are junk . I hate to know I had to set in a tree with one . I take my 270 over it any day . Never shot the 50 cal but I know that would be the way to go , lol ....
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I had a 308 but they are junk . I hate to know I had to set in a tree with one . I take my 270 over it any day . Never shot the 50 cal but I know that would be the way to go , lol ....
you had the wrong kinda .308 then. try a Rem 700 .308
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Dang and I thought I was good hitting a target from 600 meters with my Squad leaders M4 with ACOG.......
We are lucky to have him on our side!!!
:salute
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I had a 308 but they are junk . I hate to know I had to set in a tree with one . I take my 270 over it any day . Never shot the 50 cal but I know that would be the way to go , lol ....
I shot a friends Weatherby .270 and Remington .338 at 300yds side by side last summer. I actually did a better grouping with the .270, I think was the trigger on the Remington, it had a slighter harder pull, and just didn't feel as nice to me as the Weatherby. The biggest rifle I actually own is a Winchester model 94 30-30 circa 1920's I inherited from my Grandfather. It's only iron sights, but the range on it is so short that that doesn't matter anyway. I still love it though, it's fun little rifle, and just big enough to take down a deer. I play with my brother-in-laws .300 winmag, and 22-250 alot too, that 22-250 is great for popping groundhogs or jack rabbits at 100yds. Yes I kill small animals for fun, I'm a terrible person :devil . But to be fair I only do it because they make holes for me to twist my ankle, and get tractors stuck in.
From what I've read and seen the Barrett .416 is the new best uber-long rifle out there. It stays supersonic longer then a .50 BMG and carries more kinetic energy past 2200yds. Although it doesn't have the energy to punch through concrete and brick walls at shorter range like the .50, so I suppose the .50 BMG will remain king as far as military use.
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I had a 308 but they are junk . I hate to know I had to set in a tree with one . I take my 270 over it any day . Never shot the 50 cal but I know that would be the way to go , lol ....
Yea my dad gave me his 1952 Husqvarna 30.06 Nitro 3000 Crown model he brought back while stationed over in Germany When he bought a browning 308 lever action, he hated that gun lol sold it a year later and got a Rem 30.06, the Husky was modeled after a Mauser98 and it shoots a extremely hot round 400 yards is no problem with this gun It's just remarkable how far them snipers can reach out with todays weapons, it was some amazing shots he performed :aok
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You know I like my 270 BAR but I have a Rem 243 that is bad to the bone . It makes it hard when you go hunting . Don't know what I want to shoot . If I am going to be shooting long long range I will shoot the 243 ..I would love to try that 50 cal out !
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I had a 308 but they are junk . I hate to know I had to set in a tree with one . I take my 270 over it any day . Never shot the 50 cal but I know that would be the way to go , lol ....
yep, .308s are junk... :noid thats why most LE snipers, military snipers, and long range shooters in general shoot that round..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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yep, .308s are junk... :noid thats why most LE snipers, military snipers, and long range shooters in general shoot that round..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
thats what i was thinkin
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I bet if they had a choice they would not .
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yep, .308s are junk... :noid thats why most LE snipers, military snipers, and long range shooters in general shoot that round..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Actually.............................your kinda wrong and Flench is kinda right.....
I forget its M-whateverorsuch but the Barretts 50 cal round is our best bullet as far as ballistics go.
It will also kill someone without hitting them.
:salute
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It will also kill someone without hitting them.
This is a popular myth, but I can find only anecdotal evidence (so far) to refute it. OTOH, there is no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, which supports it.
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It will also kill someone without hitting them.
Only if it hits a brick in the wall behind which they're standing.....the brick then kills them.
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I own an Armalite .50 with some very nice optics on it. It has some very serious range. That said, I am buying a Barret in .416 because of recommendations from a friend who is an operator that uses that weapon now as opposed to the .50.
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This is a popular myth, but I can find only anecdotal evidence (so far) to refute it. OTOH, there is no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, which supports it.
Im just using what my NCOs have told me, my sqaud leader said he had a problem with the timing on his M2 one time.....shot 1 round at an enemy(of course before the 50cal was banned from use against Infantry) and a limb flew off. Maybe a lucky shot, but not likely....he was going to aim with tracers.
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Actually.............................your kinda wrong and Flench is kinda right.....
I forget its M-whateverorsuch but the Barretts 50 cal round is our best bullet as far as ballistics go.
It will also kill someone without hitting them.
:salute
he didnt say best round. he just stated that the .308 (7.62) is a round used by snipers in the military/police. which is true.
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he didnt say best round. he just stated that the .308 (7.62) is a round used by snipers in the military/police. which is true.
yep... :aok
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(of course before the 50cal was banned from use against Infantry)
really? seriously?
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he didnt say best round. he just stated that the .308 (7.62) is a round used by snipers in the military/police. which is true.
misread, nobody is perfect.......btw your avatar :noid
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relevent picture found
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/384/article127041409676d820.jpg)
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Damn. I thought the Marine snipers were good.
This guy takes it to a WHOLE new level.
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Really, the .50 cal was banned, hmm, then I suppose m1a1's story about how is gunner blew a raghead's brain out isn't true.
-Penguin
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Under the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868 the use of explosive projectiles with a weight of under 400 grams and incendiary ammunition against personnel is forbidden. .50 cal ball ammo is not illegal to use against personnel.
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The M2 is a anti vecihcle weapon, a 50 cal round is over kill...thats why we got those new miniguns and 240s on top Humvees, and MRAPs now.
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The M2 is a anti vecihcle weapon, a 50 cal round is over kill...thats why we got those new miniguns and 240s on top Humvees, and MRAPs now.
Meh...overkill or not, the guy's gonna go down...don't see why people want to act 'nice' about killing.
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Nothing instills fear in the Enemy more than watching one of your Comrades Head bust open like a Zit on prom nite and not know where it came from, there not so liable to poke there heads out, The 50 is a powerful fire platform, and so are the others hands down, it just comes to personal preference's, Now didn't the 50 come with rounds that could penetrate Concrete block walls then exploded in the Inside of the room? i think i seen it on Future Weapons, as far as the Mini-guns on the Humvees, its about time, those will throw the lead :aok
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The M2 is a anti vecihcle weapon, a 50 cal round is over kill...thats why we got those new miniguns and 240s on top Humvees, and MRAPs now.
The Ma Duce is very effective against infantry in cover and inside structures.
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The Ma Duce is very effective against infantry in cover and inside structures.
And the fear of hearing that thing brings is a whole other plus. Besides, a minigun on a Humvee is more overkill than a M2 ever was. You think that getting an arm or leg blown off looks bad? Try grinding the enemy into a paste! (I'm in favor of the M2, far more cost effective)
-Penguin
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Yea, you can't used 50 cal on personals but who said you were using it on them. You're just using it against their kit. It's okay to engage their kits w/ 50 cals xD.
It's all about enviroment consideration. If you're in an urban area 95% of the time you will not use 50 cals. Pending on where you are, a lot of houses in the Middle East are mut huts. A 50 cal round would go thru 4-5 houses easily. So most the time the gunner would have to use his peashooter. We try out best to negate collateral damage. I had an Iraqi soldier ND his AK-47 at my COP a few weeks ago. That round went thru 3 connexes. It was just a normal AK-47 rounds, not an AP round. So imagine what a 50 cals round would do.
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Well. yeah the .50 MG's are not supposed to be used against 'personell'.. I was informed of that rule of modern warfare many yrs ago as well.. Hmmmm, I was also informed of the policy, "Yes sir, I opened fire on a long line of canteens and entrenching tools marching out of the treeline!" "Oh OK, good work Marine!"... "Where did they run?, We'll call down some 81's on their head!"
Thats combat policy!
M16's and M42 Dusters were used heavily by US troops in Korea against Chicom human wave attacks.. Worked good too!
Damn, the devils harvest must have been pretty ugly that time... Ugh, what a mess!
RC