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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Erkel on May 14, 2010, 01:04:08 PM

Title: Arena cap
Post by: Erkel on May 14, 2010, 01:04:08 PM
sigh...

10:30 am PST, friday, orange arena (where my squadies are) capped at 100 with 158 people in it.

10:45, orange arena still capped at 100. 123 people in it.

10:50, orange arena still capped at 100.  119 people in it.

10:55, orange arena still capped at 100.  113 people in it.

11:00, orange arena still capped at 100.  107 people in it.

Total players in ALL arenas 206.

I think I'll go out and mow the lawn.  Will be more entertaining than sitting here waiting to get into the game.


Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Pongo on May 14, 2010, 01:14:37 PM
I was out of the game when these caps where put in place, so I am not sure the reasoning, but the scenario described is common.
Looking at two arenas, one moderately populated (150) the other honesty empty(40) and having to join the empty one seems to happen a fair amount. Certainly a scheme that would get one of them to 300 would be ideal.
but then I guess what do you do when you have one at 300 and one at 0? Stop access to the 300 one and that second theater is pretty emtpy for a bit. Like log out empty.
Like I said, I am sure that what is happening is deliberate and the best that could be conceived for the objective, but it can be pretty frustrating, even for someone not in a squad.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: AWwrgwy on May 14, 2010, 01:14:48 PM
You cannot complain about the arena cap ten minutes after it goes into effect.

Go to the other arena.  I bet all your squadies could get in too.

It's your $15.  Don't play and wait as long as you like.

Here's some cheese to look at while you wait....

(http://www.wineandleisure.com/images/cheese.jpg)


wrongway
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Yeager on May 14, 2010, 01:15:03 PM
Do you think your the last man in?  Maybe there are squad mates in blue?  Maybe not.  Who cares, get in there and PLAY.  Or instead come in here and whine about your pathetic condition before heading out and mowing the lawn.  Now that I think about it.  Get your chores done then play.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Erkel on May 14, 2010, 01:16:11 PM
Aw, what the heck, I'll give it another try.

11:05, orange arena capped at 100, 103 people in it.

11:10, orange arena capped at 100, 101 people in it.

11:11, YAY! orange arena capped at 100, 99 people in it.

Total players in ALL arenas, 216
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: AWwrgwy on May 14, 2010, 01:18:03 PM
Aw, what the heck, I'll give it another try.

11:05, orange arena capped at 100, 103 people in it.

11:10, orange arena capped at 100, 101 people in it.

11:11, YAY! orange arena capped at 100, 99 people in it.

Total players in ALL arenas, 216

OMG!!1!  It took all of Ten minutes!!1!!!

And all you had to do was look at some cheese.


wrongway
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Bruv119 on May 14, 2010, 01:21:29 PM

And all you had to do was look at some cheese.


wrongway

 :lol
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 14, 2010, 01:26:43 PM
Actually the real problem with the caps is when they go into effect.  There is about a 20-30 minute time period where the game is unplayable.  I logged in the other day right when the caps went into effect and orange was at 120/100 or something, Blue 0/0.  Okay, I'll go to blue.  So I got in blue and I'm the only guy in there.  After about ten minutes I click refresh and now there are 5 or 6 people in there.  It takes up to half an hour for there to be enough players to actually have a fight.  And if it's a giant map in blue, forget about it.

It wasn't a big deal because I usually don't play in the day but I can see how it would be aggravating for someone who can only play in the U.S. daytime hours.  Just sayin.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Erkel on May 14, 2010, 01:27:03 PM
Do you think your the last man in?  Maybe there are squad mates in blue?  Maybe not.  Who cares, get in there and PLAY.  Or instead come in here and whine about your pathetic condition before heading out and mowing the lawn.  Now that I think about it.  Get your chores done then play.

In regard to your opinion Yeager:

(http://maxvision.webs.com/Images/givadamn.gif)


Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Erkel on May 14, 2010, 01:32:18 PM
OMG!!1!  It took all of Ten minutes!!1!!!

And all you had to do was look at some cheese.


wrongway

From the time I logged into the game to the time I was able to enter the orange arena: 35 minutes.

The point of the post was:  With just over 200 people in ALL arenas, why was an arena capped at 100 and with such a long wait to get in?

In my 3 years of playing, I've never encountered this problem until recently.  The cap will usually rise within 5 or ten minutes.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: ImADot on May 14, 2010, 01:32:23 PM
Actually the real problem with the caps is when they go into effect.  There is about a 20-30 minute time period where the game is unplayable.  

Seriously????  There are plenty of other arenas - Orange isn't the only one (as much as most of you guys want to believe it).
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 14, 2010, 01:34:58 PM
Seriously????  There are plenty of other arenas - Orange isn't the only one (as much as most of you guys want to believe it).

If orange is at 150/100 and Blue is 0/0, if everyone took your advice and went to a different arena, like the WW1s or DA, Blue would never get filled, and Orange caps would never go up and be locked down until 50 players left which could take hours.  So yes, seriously.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: ImADot on May 14, 2010, 01:39:17 PM
Blue is different.  Why would you think they can't go the Blue?  Someone has to be first to break the ice.  Be a leader, not a follower.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 14, 2010, 01:39:45 PM
Blue is different.  Why would you think they can't go the Blue?  Someone has to be first to break the ice.  Be a leader, not a follower.

LOL.  Did you read my first post?  I think you read the first line of it and had a knee jerk reaction and clicked the reply button.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: ImADot on May 14, 2010, 01:45:04 PM
Rgr.   :salute

This is a ridiculous thread about something that happens every day and will never change.  The knee-jerk reaction is the OP.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 14, 2010, 01:45:49 PM
Rgr.   :salute

This is a ridiculous thread about something that happens every day and will never change.  The knee-jerk reaction is the OP.

Like I said it is no problem for me and I think the pros outweigh the cons for caps but for some, the cons might outweigh the pros.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Hap on May 14, 2010, 03:22:29 PM
Caps vex.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: 68ZooM on May 14, 2010, 03:25:47 PM
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/deadhorse1.gif)
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: TheDudeDVant on May 14, 2010, 03:29:20 PM
Too bad we American players are not as important as those other late night players that don't have to deal with the caps.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: BillyD on May 14, 2010, 03:46:59 PM
Arena Caps late at night for the US are not necessary. There is no purpose at all...it's not like there is gonna be an influx of 1001001010 players all of a sudden LOL. HTC could just flip it to 400 for each arena at the end of the day and go home happy to their wives and domestic/imported beverages whilst we pwn  in whatever arena we want.

Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Pongo on May 14, 2010, 04:06:39 PM
"You cannot complain about the arena cap ten minutes after it goes into effect.

Go to the other arena.  I bet all your squadies could get in too.

It's your $15.  Don't play and wait as long as you like.

Here's some cheese to look at while you wait....
"
Hey, what a stupid post, you must have real issues, thanks for sharing them with us.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: SlapShot on May 14, 2010, 04:17:39 PM
HTC shot themselves in the foot by supplying too much information. So much angst is created by seeing what the CAP number is and what the current population is.

They should just get rid of the numbers and show ... "FULL" or "OPEN" ... next to an arena.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 14, 2010, 04:21:13 PM
Too bad we American players are not as important as those other late night players that don't have to deal with the caps.

Overall, Euro players are more hurt by caps. Caps kick in right at our prime time (1900 here). Before Arena Caps, I was able to play with 200-300 players in an arena at my time. Nowadays, I'm very often stuck to less than hundred for hours. For a player like me, that did not come to AH for 1v1 duels but for large battles and a very diverse gameplay, it often simply sucks. For a similar gameplay experience I once had at my prime time, I now have to stay up until like 3-4 in the morning.

It may be true that 600 players is too much for a single arena environment... but from my own egoistical standpoint, 125/100 and 50/150 surely ain't not better than having a single 175 players arena.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: captain1ma on May 14, 2010, 04:55:30 PM
(http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_2.gif)
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 14, 2010, 05:12:09 PM
Start the caps 4 hours later than it is set to engage currently and deactivate them an hour earlier than it is currently.  That would fix a lot of problems imo.  Fluctuate the initiations and closing times accordingly as the monthly stats alter.  /discussion
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 14, 2010, 05:18:30 PM
Start the caps 4 hours later than it is set to engage currently

For myself that would be great... but then you would face another problem:

LWO 300/100  
LWB 20/150

In other words, you would delay and even magnifiy arena imbalances.

How to deal with this situation?
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 14, 2010, 05:27:35 PM
For myself that would be great... but then you would face another problem:

LWO 300/100  
LWB 20/150

In other words, you would delay and even magnifiy arena imbalances.

How to deal with this situation?

Activate caps an hour before the peak log in times.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: JimmyC on May 14, 2010, 05:36:08 PM
end caps
job done
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: ACE on May 14, 2010, 05:47:19 PM
 :rofl
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: doleboy on May 14, 2010, 05:48:24 PM
end caps
job done
U Da Man....
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Chilli on May 14, 2010, 05:58:02 PM
(snip image)
(http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_2.gif)

Giteyup!!!
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: doleboy on May 14, 2010, 06:13:33 PM
Giteyup!!!
Yep, a dead horse that needs to be resurrected and sorted out...
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: AWwrgwy on May 14, 2010, 07:04:42 PM
"You cannot complain about the arena cap ten minutes after it goes into effect.

Go to the other arena.  I bet all your squaddies could get in too.

It's your $15.  Don't play and wait as long as you like.

Here's some cheese to look at while you wait....
"
Hey, what a stupid post, you must have real issues, thanks for sharing them with us.

Actually, I don't have a problem.  I'll fly in the other arena.

 :devil

Start the caps 4 hours later than it is set to engage currently and deactivate them an hour earlier than it is currently.  That would fix a lot of problems imo.  Fluctuate the initiations and closing times accordingly as the monthly stats alter.  /discussion

Or, have caps on all the time so the arena numbers stay closer to each other all the time, doing away with what seems like a greater disparity than it is.


Arena Caps late at night for the US are not necessary. There is no purpose at all...it's not like there is gonna be an influx of 1001001010 players all of a sudden LOL. HTC could just flip it to 400 for each arena at the end of the day and go home happy to their wives and domestic/imported beverages whilst we pwn  in whatever arena we want.

Caps ON at Noon HTC local, OFF at Midnight HTC local right now.

The problem as I see it is everyone is choosing the wrong arena, the full one.  If it's about your buddies and they don't want to change to accommodate you then maybe a chat server or something will fulfill your need to bond?


wrongway
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: kvuo75 on May 14, 2010, 07:22:50 PM
For myself that would be great... but then you would face another problem:

LWO 300/100  
LWB 20/150

In other words, you would delay and even magnifiy arena imbalances.

How to deal with this situation?

IMO, have caps run 24 hrs a day..

and start at 50 players.. orange 51/50 blue 20/75, etc...

in truly low times, it might be 20/50 and 2/75.. but about the time 50-100 ppl are logging in, you would quickly get 2 relatively even arenas..


I cant recall hitech's magic number range (was it 100-300?) for a "healthy" main arena.. but I think just running the caps all the time make things much simpler for everyone, easier to predict.. instead of that magic time in the day when they kick in where it is just completely out of whack.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 14, 2010, 07:23:48 PM
IMO, have caps run 24 hrs a day..

and start at 50 players.. orange 51/50 blue 20/75, etc...

You aren't serious?
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 14, 2010, 07:24:48 PM
Or, have caps on all the time so the arena numbers stay closer to each other all the time, doing away with what seems like a greater disparity than it is.

wrongway

That would kill gameplay for those who fly at off hours and have a hard enough time as is finding a fight on giant maps when everyone is in one arena.  I like my idea better.   :)
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: goxwerd on May 14, 2010, 07:28:46 PM
just never have caps go under 150.. or even 200..  When there are that few people on no reason to heard them into arenas.

I dont mind the caps but nothing gets me to be "done for the day" than relogging and finding out the arena with my friends is 170/100 and the other one is 20/150

I feel so bad for the people who play non peak and get locked out for a bit when the caps drop.

Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 14, 2010, 07:30:38 PM
just never have caps go under 150.. or even 200..  When there are that few people on no reason to heard them into arenas.

I dont mind the caps but nothing gets me to be "done for the day" than relogging and finding out the arena with my friends is 170/100 and the other one is 20/150


So if the minimum cap is 200...

... LWO 220/200 and LWB 20/ 200 will be better for you? ;)
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: SHawk on May 14, 2010, 09:11:51 PM
After reading all the posts in this thread,
I have 3 points to make.

#1 Arena Caps are Stupid

#2 Arena Caps are Stupid

#3 Arena Caps are Stupid


Question: When the ww1 arenas first opened and caps were at 850 all the time...
Did anyone once complain that there were to many in one arena and not enough in the other?
Answer: No
Case rested. :cheers:
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 14, 2010, 09:19:02 PM
<facepalm>

It has already been stated a million times that the caps have brought in new business and have kept the arena's in 'good health'.  I generally agree with that line of thought and believe HTC has the hard stats to back it up.  So to say "The caps suck get rid of them" is an incomplete thought and should be ignored.  I personally feel the caps are an incomplete solution to the given said 'arena health' problem.  There has to be a better way to address it.  I have offered up what imo is a very reasonable solution.  The game's population right now only makes for an 'unhealthy' arena during US peak hours which is probably around a 5 hour gap of time.  I also believe that stats will show that on a daily basis, the arena's max entry flow rate can be predicted through simple statistics.  If you initiate the caps an hour or so before people start getting home from work and logging in, Blue will fill up ten times as fast, minimizing the problem at hand.  Also, the caps aren't needed all the way till midnight, especially on weekdays.  Maybe on Friday's and Saturdays, but that's it. 

The caps could be managed more efficiently.  My 2cents.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: guncrasher on May 14, 2010, 09:26:25 PM
Join and u will fite against tens of player because the other arena is close :).  Really want to have caps then have caps that make both arenas close in numbers not like it is right now with one arena with 300 and the other 1/2 as many.  And shawk is right no one complained when there was no caps while wwi arena was released.


Semp
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 14, 2010, 09:29:49 PM
And shawk is right no one complained when there was no caps while wwi arena was released.

It has nothing to do with active players whining about it.  It has to do with expanding the game and the statistics to prove that two arenas produce two healthier arenas and more subscriptions.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 14, 2010, 09:42:11 PM
I'm sure if the players who don't want caps would pay the difference of lost subscription to HTC till the end of HTC's life cycle, they would surely get rid of the caps.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: kvuo75 on May 14, 2010, 10:57:14 PM
You aren't serious?


I think it would be better than the 300/100 and 20/150 when the caps kick in. (exaggerated i know)

if there were ALWAYS caps in place, the arenas would be pretty much even all the time. hence my question about "healthy" arena population, I think hitech said it was sowewhere between 100-300 people per arena -- and it seems to be a trade secret :)


whatever the case.. let's say if the aim is 100 people per arena, it does not make sense to let 300 people into one arena for some of the day, then arbitrarily (i know it's not arbitrary) start imposing limits.. makes more sense to me to just have the limits work throughout the day... i think that would end up with 2 equally populated arenas 24 hrs a day.

well that's how i see it.. (i never go to orange, unless it happens to be the underpopulated one)

Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: TnDep on May 14, 2010, 11:10:22 PM
The cap system suks point blank and it doesn't help new people stay in reguardless what people say.  Nobody likes it so they keep it in, I have the same problems Kvuo.  I've not heard one person say they like the cap system all it does is prevent good fights because of the lesser numbers in the arena's.  More red con's the better. 
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: RDSaustinTX on May 14, 2010, 11:20:45 PM
So to say "The caps suck get rid of them" is an incomplete thought and should be ignored.

Complete the thought and I'll ignore you accordingly.      :headscratch:
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 14, 2010, 11:48:33 PM
The problem is, you can hardly create a cap system that achieves all goals at once without pissing anyone off at a certain point.

We are looking for a system that

- prevents getting numbers in any single arena from getting too high, ("unhealthy") , whatever that number is (lets say, for discussion purposes only, 300)
- balances the load between the arenas, so that it's not hundreds of players having fun in one and a dozen boring themselves in the other
- is getting that balance as quick as possible.

The last two are the difficult ones to meet. Once you enable the cap, it takes time for the second arena to fill up. Unfortunately the current system is producing much grief for those flying at "early caps" time.

The only real "solution" I can think of would indeed be getting the caps into effect later than it currently uses to be, when more players are online - and then remove a appropriate number of players from LWO, so that both arenas will be up to the same numbers. For example: population in LWO gets to 300... zooooomg: LWO 150, LWB 150.
Of course it's not that easy... you can just randomly suddenly kick 50% of the players out of the arena. I'm not seriously proposing this ;)

But... I'm just letting my thoughts flow... how about a regular, scheduled "shift" system?A daytime arena, and a "nighttime" arena, or non-prime and primetime or whatever.
Let's say the single daytime arena get's shut down at the same time each day (like 16:00 EST or whatever time is best). The whole process could be automated to happen at exact the  same time each day and include early warnings at T-30, T-15, T-10, T-5 minutes. Then the arena closes, and the two "prime time" arenas will open up, with appropriate caps placed on them. Both would then will fill up more quickly.

Of course players would complain (we always do, don't we?). But as it's scheduled & automated, so it's reliably happening at the same time each day, no one would be surprised by a sudden shutdown. And  it would just be a 15-30 minutes timespan in which action would die in the non-prime arena in expectation of the shutdown, and the two primetime arenas get back up to numbers and action - and note a 2 hour time of seeing LWB numbers climbing up from 20-100 players...






Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: danny76 on May 15, 2010, 12:41:19 AM
Actually the real problem with the caps is when they go into effect.  There is about a 20-30 minute time period where the game is unplayable.  I logged in the other day right when the caps went into effect and orange was at 120/100 or something, Blue 0/0.  Okay, I'll go to blue.  So I got in blue and I'm the only guy in there.  After about ten minutes I click refresh and now there are 5 or 6 people in there.  It takes up to half an hour for there to be enough players to actually have a fight.  And if it's a giant map in blue, forget about it.

It wasn't a big deal because I usually don't play in the day but I can see how it would be aggravating for someone who can only play in the U.S. daytime hours.  Just sayin.

I have a problem in the slightest going into Blue instead of Orange.

Not for lack of squaddies

Just lack of a fight.

Yesterday there was at 1 point (when the Orange cap opened up presumably), where the numbers were 7 Bish 2 Rook and 2 Knights.

The Bish did not want a fight, they were just rolling bases and score hoarding, so what choices do I have?

1. Pootle about trying to find a fight with the Rook, 1 of which is permanently in a Panzer, the other apparently AFK

2. Fight against 7 to 1 ganging and picking

3. Give up till Orange cap opens up again

Having said that, last night was one of the best nights in a long time once I didi get into Orange. Salute to all fighting over 221 / 222 last night.

Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: AWwrgwy on May 15, 2010, 12:50:38 AM

<READ IT UP ABOVE>

So you want to boot everyone out of all the MA's daily, on a schedule?  Make them re-enter the arena's, each with the dynamic cap working?  A mini reset type thing, but only resetting the numbers, not the map?

Wouldn't having 24 hour a day caps do the same thing?

If you just hid the numbers, would everyone still NEED to be in the first arena on the list?

If you roll back the time caps begin, more people wouldn't be able to get into the "popular" arena because you would have an even more lopsided 250/100, 60/150 situation.

The solution is in the hands of the players, some of who just MUST be in that particular arena no matter what.  A whole squad will not switch to accommodate the guy who can't join them where they are.  "There are no good fights" in the other arena.  Who's fault is that?

What's the saying about helping those who help themselves?



wrongway
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 15, 2010, 01:05:35 AM
So you want to boot everyone out of all the MA's daily, on a schedule?  Make them re-enter the arena's, each with the dynamic cap working?  A mini reset type thing, but only resetting the numbers, not the map?

That's basically my idea. But it's not  what "I want to" - I'm just brainstorming

Wouldn't having 24 hour a day caps do the same thing?

No, absolutely not.

What I'm trying to avoid is arenas with only 20 players or so. 24 hour a day caps would mean two arenas with 40 players each for many hours a day.
And with the current system, you have a (closed) high numbers arena and an open, low numbers arena for a long time when caps kick in. It really sucks having to play at this time.

Quote
The solution is in the hands of the players, some of who just MUST be in that particular arena no matter what.  A whole squad will not switch to accommodate the guy who can't join them where they are.

It's illusory that everybody suddenly starts to leave LWO once caps kick in and goes to LWB, just to balance the numbers. And you can't really blame anybody who's just logging off again when coming to the login screen and seeing LWO 170/100 and LWB 20/150. After all, if players were that altruistic, there would not be any caps on the two arenasin the first place. If you have two arenas, youhave to channel the players in some way.



I'm just looking for a better way to ensure that as few players as possible, for a short time as possible, have a negative impact on fun & gameplay by split arena's & caps.
And it's particular important for me to have some reasonable minimum numbers. As I said before, when i was joining AH I was able to play with 200-250 players on a map at my prime time. Now it's almost always not only half that number, but sometimes maybe a quarter... and not just for 15 minutes. And it's definitely less fun.




Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Pongo on May 15, 2010, 02:46:22 AM
Like I said in the first response in the thread, I was on a long break when these things were implemented, and I am not exactly sure the purpose, but the effect on me, when I notice an effect is that I am forced into some pretty poorly populated servers when the "full" server is really not nearly full, its probably got a good fight going.
Presumably at some point in some nights, the ability of the servers to handle the customers is overwhelmed and this is a load balancing concept.
Maybe it is the best that could be conceived.
What would people think of this scenario.

Orange at 800
"System: Casualties will be kicked from the arena for load balancing"
And they can log into the other arena.
Might create an interesting dynamic.
Might be worse.
But if they have to load balance, and they want to clean some people off one server and force them to another, and do it quickly, people die pretty quick on a 500 person server. The other server would be at 200 players pretty quick.

Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 15, 2010, 03:27:57 AM
Orange at 800
"System: Casualties will be kicked from the arena for load balancing"
And they can log into the other arena.
Might create an interesting dynamic.
Might be worse.

Interesting? Indeed! Worse? You can bet!

And speaketh the Lord:
"Thou shall not die and be resurrected in this world
But thou shalt live in the other one
For I am your LORD and this is my will"

And upon these words of the LORD
There was a big crying all over the server
And a big hugging of the ack commenced
And not the angles did fly in heavenly spheres
But the players, being afraid to come down
And fly beneath another one
For it could be their death
And departure from this world."




(in other words: everybody will start to fly like me.... ;) )
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: iwomba on May 15, 2010, 04:36:42 AM
I think that any plausable reason for arena caps has been debunked by having Titanic Tuesday.

There should only be 2 arenas for LW & get rid of the other waste of space arenas that only have 10-20 in them practically all the time.

By closing the low populated arenas ( EW , MW , WW1 ) you also address the so called "arena health" issue.

I cannot see how one can talk about arena health when you have these other arenas that basically do not get used.

Same as how you can discuss arena caps when you have Titanic Tuesday.

I hate TT but the numbers in there could also prove that many might be in favour of a single large arena.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: The Fugitive on May 15, 2010, 08:20:47 AM
Like I said in the first response in the thread, I was on a long break when these things were implemented, and I am not exactly sure the purpose,


I think that any plausable reason for arena caps has been debunked by having Titanic Tuesday.


The reason it was put together was HTC subscription stopped growing. Once the split arena system was added the subscription rate has started to grow again. Subscriptions going up is good for business. Titanic Tuesday is a concession to those players who "think" they know whats better for the business.

As for a solution.... maybe keep the system as it is, but when the dynamic caps kick in make the percentage needed to open more space in the other arena dynamic as well. I'm not sure what the numbers are for real, but say when the DC (Dynamic Caps) kick in it opens more space when the cap gets within 15% of the cap. If they changed that to a dynamic that started at say 2% and over the first 4 hours in creased to the 15% wouldn't that make the population closer and easier to get into each arena? Would this work, can anyone think of any negative effects it might have?

The cap system suks point blank and it doesn't help new people stay in reguardless what people say.  Nobody likes it so they keep it in, I have the same problems Kvuo.  I've not heard one person say they like the cap system all it does is prevent good fights because of the lesser numbers in the arena's.  More red con's the better. 

Yes caps suck, but it's a necessary evil that we must all live with if we want the game to continue and grow.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: oTRALFZo on May 15, 2010, 09:28:25 AM
What I loved when we had arena caps turned off for that brief taste of bliss was the fact that LWO and LWB had a very consistent "theme" (trying to look for a better word) about both arenas I think that everyone enjoyed.
LWO had the #s, very easy to find action no matter what the map was. It was very difficult but not possible to milkrun because soon as a base flashed..they would find opposition. Which I enjoyed. Also, very rarely did any side experience ENY so it made a nice balance.
LWB even with the low #s, you know was populated by base rollers and milkrunners, if thats your thing go to LWB that was usually dominated by one country totally outnumbering the other 2. What I found to be the most fun was joining the low #s side to fight these guys.

Now since the re-intro of arena caps, for some reason changed the style of gameplay of both arenas. You have say rooks in LWO with an ENY of 15-20 with nits having the low #s and you find that the other countries are still pumbling undefended nit feilds.
Now in LWB, The Knights outnumber everyone else, Rooks with low #s and the Rook undefended front being pumbled.

Your choice in both arenas..horde or be hoarded. Be part of the 1 vs 10 fight or 10 vs 1 fight. I ask HTC this question..If too many people in one arena is unhealthy, wouldnt this style of gameplay that is consistent with the arena caps be an unhealthier enviroment? Or is it the lesser of the 2 evils? I would assume keeping the caps off so at least players arent griefed with being forced to play in an arena they didnt choose.
 
Flame away guys

 :bolt:
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: hitech on May 15, 2010, 09:28:49 AM

I also believe that stats will show that on a daily basis, the arena's max entry flow rate can be predicted through simple statistics. 


This is how we chose the current switch time.

HiTech

Title: Arena Cap
Post by: MunKySR on May 15, 2010, 12:37:42 PM
Can I ask a simple question as why (in non-peak time such as 1:30 PM EDST with only 280 players on the entire system) we have areana capping limits as per the distribution below! Makes NO sense to me. When I do get a moment to play in this game, I dont appreciate having to go play by myself.  Would it not make more sense to have a minimum limit of at least 200 each Orange and Blue, never ever have I seen 300 players in Early!

early 5/350
mid 11/350
Orange 176/100
Blue 80/100
Dogfight #1 0/100
Dogfight #2 0/100
Axis vs Allies, 1/200

I know the thread has been beat up before, I'm just makin a suggestion lookin for a technical answer.
Its just so frustrating to be locked out when you dont have much time.

Thx

MunKySR
Title: Re: Arena Cap
Post by: Lusche on May 15, 2010, 12:59:59 PM
1. Early mid caps are just theoretical ones. And as they don't have any influence on the LW arenas, you can simply ignore them

2. LW Caps are dynamic. See http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/arenas.html on how they work.
2.1 Caps are started at 12:00 EST, that's why you see LWO having 76 players more than it's cap limit currently is. As time goes by, that number will change. See above.

3, You have now 176+80= 256 players total in both LW arenas. So what would it look like if the cap was a minimum of 200? In LW there would be 200, in LWB 56 players. Would that be any better to you?
Title: Re: Arena Cap
Post by: MunKySR on May 15, 2010, 01:43:55 PM
Perhaps it might be, or maybe not. And why only balance arenas by "Total players" and not by "players from country" as well ...
Also, perhaps both Orange and Blue maps could always be identical so as to remove that preference as well, in that way if numbers are too high in one board a group of players that wish to play as a unit can simply move to the other board. There are always ways and means of improving an algorithm.
It just doesn't work well the way it is now either.
To the point, I will just walk away from it, better things to do than sit around waiting for action in an almost empty arena. 

Munk
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 15, 2010, 01:55:35 PM
This is how we chose the current switch time.

HiTech

Mid day?  :headscratch:

I would have thought max entry flow rate would be closer to around 6-7 est.
Title: Re: Arena Cap
Post by: OOZ662 on May 15, 2010, 03:09:55 PM
And why only balance arenas by "Total players" and not by "players from country" as well

Complexity.

Also, perhaps both Orange and Blue maps could always be identical so as to remove that preference as well, in that way if numbers are too high in one board a group of players that wish to play as a unit can simply move to the other board.

Every time a war was won in one arena, the other would lose their chance to.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 15, 2010, 03:15:33 PM

But... I'm just letting my thoughts flow... how about a regular, scheduled "shift" system?A daytime arena, and a "nighttime" arena, or non-prime and primetime or whatever.
Let's say the single daytime arena get's shut down at the same time each day (like 16:00 EST or whatever time is best). The whole process could be automated to happen at exact the  same time each day and include early warnings at T-30, T-15, T-10, T-5 minutes. Then the arena closes, and the two "prime time" arenas will open up, with appropriate caps placed on them. Both would then will fill up more quickly.

Of course players would complain (we always do, don't we?). But as it's scheduled & automated, so it's reliably happening at the same time each day, no one would be surprised by a sudden shutdown. And  it would just be a 15-30 minutes timespan in which action would die in the non-prime arena in expectation of the shutdown, and the two primetime arenas get back up to numbers and action - and note a 2 hour time of seeing LWB numbers climbing up from 20-100 players...

Not a bad idea but imo it would kill subscriptions.  Daily resets would devalue the capture game and players who enjoy that mode of play would feel no purpose and potentially quit.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 15, 2010, 03:19:17 PM
Not a bad idea but imo it would kill subscriptions.  Daily resets would devalue the capture game and players who enjoy that mode of play would feel no purpose and potentially quit.

Of course you would have to save & carry over arena status in some way. Without such a measure it would indeed quickly kill AH.
Title: Re: Arena Cap
Post by: 2BAD on May 15, 2010, 04:03:27 PM
Well Well  I didn't know u had a mean streak in ya MUNKY

YEAHHHHHHHHHHH  :)

Gonna change squad name to BaDMunkY  in ur honor  <S>

ps

It took me till 3am just to get into the orange areana last night
wasn't happy about that either.

Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: hitech on May 15, 2010, 04:51:04 PM
Of course you would have to save & carry over arena status in some way. Without such a measure it would indeed quickly kill AH.


Think of it as a mass eject, not a reset. Arena would stay in the same state.

HiTech
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: TequilaChaser on May 15, 2010, 05:06:27 PM
HTC
~snip~

They should just get rid of the numbers and show ... "FULL" or "OPEN" ... next to an arena.

I forget how wise you can be......... excellent suggestion, Slap
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Baumer on May 15, 2010, 05:06:51 PM
I was wondering if this could be a second use of the code for dynamically generated user arenas, you mentioned at the last CON.
Title: Re: Arena Cap
Post by: MunKySR on May 15, 2010, 06:10:20 PM
Hey Well 2BAD,
just voic'in my frustrations instead of kickin the 10 year old cat upstairs!

Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: iwomba on May 15, 2010, 10:31:12 PM
The reason it was put together was HTC subscription stopped growing. Once the split arena system was added the subscription rate has started to grow again. Subscriptions going up is good for business. Titanic Tuesday is a concession to those players who "think" they know whats better for the business.

Interesting comment.

So advertising & promotion has nothing to do with increasing awareness & attracting new business?

Only arena caps is responsible for any growth in new business?.

Maybe I should split my 80 room hotel into 2 seperate 40 room hotels then I will get an immediate growth in business.

How do you reach the conclusion that TT is a concession for those that "think" they know how the business should be run?
Title: Re: Arena Cap
Post by: batch on May 16, 2010, 01:22:37 AM
another one of those threads where everyone will bash the question or the premise of caps rather than simply giving the answer to the specific question I guess

the question is actually 2 parts so theres 2 answers, with both parts actually meaning the same thing....

as to why a "non-peak" time for the starting the caps: because its really hard to make the cap effective if the arenas are extremely unbalanced as they would be if the cap started in peak times

for example using your numbers from 1 1/2 hours after cap kicked in...... theres still a huge balance issue...... if the cap had been initiated at a later time the difference would be even greater....... the cap is started at a non-peak time so the arenas can fill evenly before they get to extremely unbalanced

which brings us to the question of raising the initial cap to 200....... you could just as easly say start the caps at 1,000......... if you show 176 vs 80 in the arenas with the cap at 100 then you have to realize that a 200 cap would simply mean 24 people from blue would instead be in orange and it would be 200 vs 56........ so the problem being that with the current system blue would only need 60 more people for oranges cap to raise...... if you start caps at 200 then blue would need 119 more people for the cap in orange to raise......... which do you think takes less time for the caps to raise?

the problem isnt in the implementation of the caps......... the problem is having caps in general........... if you agree with having caps then you must also agree and accept that they currently are as fair and balanced as they can be to work effectively
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Money on May 16, 2010, 03:44:59 AM
There are not enough active players at the moment to justify two arenas.  Make it 500 and be done with it.

As for the notion that simply labeling them open or full will reduce the aggravation, that is silly.  Just knowing most of your friends, squadies, etc are in an arena you cannot access is frustrating.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: gpwurzel on May 16, 2010, 05:59:05 AM
During prime time, its really not a problem, cant get in one, go into the other. Off prime time, its a bit different (affects Euro and similiar time zones players more) - but I've never had a problem going into the lesser numbered arena. The cap is what it is.

My squaddies and I will all swap so we are in the same arena - if we cant find a fight, we'll go and start one - up, go to a base, get it flashing - if no one ups - start attacking town/ack guns etc, until we annoy someone into upping.


ymmv,

Wurzel
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: grizz441 on May 16, 2010, 06:15:55 AM
During prime time, its really not a problem, cant get in one, go into the other. Off prime time, its a bit different (affects Euro and similiar time zones players more) - but I've never had a problem going into the lesser numbered arena. The cap is what it is.
Wurzel

And the ironic thing about that is, off prime time, there is no need for caps.  
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: AWwrgwy on May 16, 2010, 08:21:13 AM
And the ironic thing about that is, off prime time, there is no need for caps.  

What's ironic?  Off prime either there are  no caps or caps really don't effect anything.  The only time people complain about caps due to arena imbalance is right after they go into effect.  Otherwise it's a matter of "I can't play with my friends" and not an imbalance issue as much.

Is 200/200 vs 140/250 really that big a difference that actually going into the open arena is a problem?


wrongway
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 16, 2010, 08:24:13 AM
What's ironic?  Off prime either there are  no caps or caps really don't effect anything.  

That's absolutely not true. Caps do have a major impact at off US prime time.

I am facing it every day... at Euro prime time it's not 200vs 140... its often like 150 vs 50... for a long time, not just for a few minutes.
Caps kick in at 7pm local... and arenas are like 180 vs 20 then.

the 200vs140 is often reached only after a few hours.
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: 321BAR on May 16, 2010, 08:28:04 AM
agreed on the rediculous thread but ive seen the cap happen even if there are 100 in orange and 70 in blue. the cap wont go to 200. idk the full idea behind the dynamics for the caps but could someone tell me?
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: AWwrgwy on May 16, 2010, 08:35:09 AM
agreed on the rediculous thread but ive seen the cap happen even if there are 100 in orange and 70 in blue. the cap wont go to 200. idk the full idea behind the dynamics for the caps but could someone tell me?

So, 30 people difference?  I guess that's a huge deal.   :x

That's absolutely not true. Caps do have a major impact at off US prime time.

I am facing it every day... at Euro prime time it's not 200vs 140... its often like 150 vs 50... for a long time, not just for a few minutes.
Caps kick in at 7pm local... and arenas are like 180 vs 20 then.

the 200vs140 is often reached only after a few hours.

But like I said before, 7pm local, prime time Euro, is when the caps begin.  When the disparity is at it's greatest.  I think 24 hour caps would keep the numbers closer and one argument for not joining the open arena would go away.


wrongway
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 16, 2010, 10:11:21 AM
I think 24 hour caps would keep the numbers closer and one argument for not joining the open arena would go away.

24 hours caps? So when 100 players are online total before 7pm, you want to set caps to 50?

That's making it worse instead of better. Having only a low number arena available IS our problem. It's not being solved by forcing me to play with numbers as low as that all the time...

Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: 321BAR on May 16, 2010, 10:39:33 AM
So, 30 people difference?  I guess that's a huge deal.   :x
you dont get my point. i am saying that i thought caps interdicted once one arena dropped below 75% or so of the other. i dont really give a crap about the caps and me playing in the arenas. i have fun anywhere i go i just go and find it...
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: kvuo75 on May 16, 2010, 11:02:13 AM
24 hours caps? So when 100 players are online total before 7pm, you want to set caps to 50?



IMO 50 and 50 is better than 90 and 10..
Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: Lusche on May 16, 2010, 11:12:39 AM
IMO 50 and 50 is better than 90 and 10..


No. Because before caps kicks in, there are 90 in an OPEN arena. I can always get there. And 90 players is more fun than 50.  AWwrgwy's proposal of caps on all the time will make it almost impossible for me to get any decent gameplay at all.

Right now I'm at  least occasionally able to play with halway decent numbers about two hours before caps kick on at 7pm. Enforcing caps all the time will take this away from me too, without solving anything or making gameplay or "arena health" any better.

My problem is NOT having to go into a 200 player arena instead of a 300 player one. Things like 200 vs 140 or "all my buddies are in LWO"  is a kind of "luxury problem" of US players.


Allow me to exaggerate a bit:

Sometimes I have the feeling, players like me are paying the price for prime US time arena health and gameplay. Two arenas of 300 are better for HTC growth and gampelay then a single 600 one - no doubt, I have played a lot at prime US time and having to play with "only" 300 or 240 is absolutely no problem.

BUT - once I was able to fly & fight against 200+ players at my prime time. Now I'm often facing 50-80 players only even though 200 are online. THAT is my problem. And it is a very distinct change in gameplay resulting of it. Not for the better...


And that is the reason why I am rather desperately looking for improvements on that whole split arena & caps thing.






Title: Re: Arena cap
Post by: SlapShot on May 17, 2010, 03:10:54 PM
There are not enough active players at the moment to justify two arenas.  Make it 500 and be done with it.

Wow ... so you're privy to all of HTC's proprietary statistical data ? ... I'll bet Lusche wished he was you ... :rofl