Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Squire on May 22, 2010, 04:49:25 PM
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Frame dates are June 4th, 11th and 18th. Sides will be posted next saturday with frame 1 objectives out soon after.
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ANGELS EIGHT: Normandy Front Summer 1944
The backbone of Allied air power in the Normandy campaign centered around the mobile fighter-bomber wings of the RAF 2nd Tactical Air Force and the USAAF IX Tactical Air Force. Their mandate was to provide direct support to the American, British and Canadian armies. They had to move as the army did and be ready to change locations on short notice. When fully operational the mobile wings were completely self sufficiant organisations performing the same function as a unit in England. Airfields also had to be built from scratch or repaired, a task perfomed by engineers assigned to those airfields often using an invention called peirced steel planking (PSP) that was critical to setting up airfields quickly. Such was the importance of the tactical air force support troops that many were in the follow up waves of personnel on D+1. Within 24 hrs of the invasion the first Allied aircraft were using emergency strips on the Continent and by a month into the campaign 25 Advanced Landing Grounds (ALG) had been built.
The Luftwaffes reaction to the threatened Western Front was remarkably swift. Initially the French based JGs defending the landing area had been widely scattered to counter the threat of air attack and as a result the Jadgwaffes first efforts were woefully inadequate. However by June 9th 1944 no fewer than 15 Jagdgruppen had departed the Homeland for France. Bomber forces from Italy and southern France were also deployed to bolster the defenders bringing their combat strength to about 1000 aircraft. Now faced with having to counter both the Allied Bombing Offensive and the Normandy fighting the Luftwaffe braced itself for a fight for survival in a war few in the Wehrmacht now thought winnable. Many of the Luftwaffe units operated from rough strips during the fighting, keeping well camoflaged and disperesed untill sortied. Along with the fighters of the Jadgeschwader units many Schlachtgeschwader (ground attack) units also flew into the cauldron flying desperate missions in order to try and stem the Allied forces.
After intense fighting in the bocage country the Allies broke out during Operation Cobra in July. The following month saw the bulk of the German 7th Army retreating from the closing Falaise Pocket. August 25th saw the liberation of Paris. On August 30th the 84 day battle was over with the remaining German forces withdrawn across the Seine river. The air campaign had cost the Allies 1639 aircraft (to all causes) and the Luftwaffe 1522 aircraft (to all causes). The worst losses amongst the Luftwaffe was the high percentage of veteran aircrew killed or posted missing, valuable crews they could ill afford to lose.
This FSO will recreate the defence of the Western Front by the Luftwaffes surviving experten and the Allied air forces supporting the advancing armies.
Country Percentages:
Axis 48%
Allied 52%
Field Assignments:
Axis Bishop
Allied Knight
CM Rook
OOB:
Axis (Luftwaffe):
Bf 109G-14
Bf 109G-6 (min 24)
Fw 190A-5 (min 24)
Fw 190A-8 (min 24)
Fw 190F-8 (min 24)
Recon Aircraft: Ar 234 (6 per frame, no formations) *Special mission aircraft*
Allied (USAAF/RAF/RCAF):
Spitfire XVI (max 48)
Spitfire VIII (max 24)
Typhoon (max 48)
Mosquito VI
P-51B
P-47D-25 (min 24)
P-38J
A-20G
B-26B (max 24 players, formations enabled)
Recon Aircraft: Spitfire FR XIV (Spitfire XIV, 12 per frame) *Special mission aircraft*
Special Rules and Ordnance Restrictions: Each a/c type must be used by a *minimum of 12 players* unless otherwise specified. The Recon Aircraft have an OPTIONAL mission ability to make a tactical reconnaissance run. The recon a/c may also be used in their regular fighter/bomber/attack roles. The Ar 234s RATOs will be disabled. Axis aircraft are not permitted to go feet dry over England.
Special Missions (Optional): Recon missons are filmed (ALt-R) over a strike target at 4000 ft or less within light flak range and/or over the center area of the target after the strike is completed but within 60 min of frame start. They must rtb safely to get the points for the mission. Confirmation film to be emailed to the Admin CM.
Scoring:
Aircraft Pts
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B-26 = 20 pts
Arado 234 = 25pts
Twin Engined aircraft = 10 pts
Single Engined aircraft = 5 pts
Spitfire FR XIV = 20 pts
Landing Bonus = 5 pts
Ground Target Pts
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Gun = 0.1 pts
Ammo Bunker = 3 pts
Barracks = 3 pts
Radar = 3 pts
Vehicle Hangar = 25 pts
Fighter Hangar = 25pts
Bomber Hangar = 25 pts
Town Building = 3 pts
Factory at strategic target = 3 pts
Truck in convoy = 1 pt
Train = 2 pts
Recon mission = 50 pts
Arena Settings:
- Battle of Britain (bob09) terrain
- Fuel burn 1.2
- Icons short (3k)
- 0.5 Ack
- Fighter and Bomber warning range 42,000 (about 8 miles)
- Tower range set to 42,000 (for display only to match the above setting)
- Haze/fog full visability (17 miles)
- Radar off
- Enemy Collisions On
- Friendly collisions off
- Killshooter off
- Time: 15:00 ( 3PM ) Game Clock
- Formations: On
- Bomber calibration: Manual
- Wind: 0-2K NO WIND
2K-18K W TO E - Speed 5
18K-24K NW TO SE - Speed 10
24k+ W TO E - Speed 15
Designer's Notes: The Spitfire XVI is identical to a Spitfire IXe and represents that type. The Spitfire VIII is a stand in for the almost identical Spitfire VII. The Recon Spitfire FR XIVs were armed varients of the Spitfire XIV with cameras added. The Ar 234 was just entering service in very small numbers with operational trials units during the Normandy air battles.
Design by Warloc
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This looks like a very good set-up! Already looking forward to it. :salute
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I want a 234! :)
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looks good :salute
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I'm only gonna HO 234's from now on...... We hates Spikesies!, we hates him!
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Are their no bombers for the axis besides the Arado's? :headscratch:
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Believe so because Axis are on defense.
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There will be objectives to attack for both sides but the Axis will be mostly on the defensive. The only real "bomber" for the Luftwaffe in AH is the Ju-88. It is cannon fodder in a mid 1944 ETO setup and did not see daylight action in France in 1944. They flew almost exclusivley night missions. Mainly the LW relied on Jabos (fighter-bombers). The pts for a/c makes the B-26s expensive to lose and this offsets the better bombload they have. So the two reasons I did not include it was the high vulnerability, and the fact they were not used as traditional day bombers in Normandy. Some designs may include them, for this one I chose not too.
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There will be objectives to attack for both sides but the Axis will be mostly on the defensive. The only real "bomber" for the Luftwaffe in AH is the Ju-88. It is cannon fodder in a mid 1944 ETO setup and did not see daylight action in France in 1944. They flew almost exclusivley night missions. Mainly the LW relied on Jabos (fighter-bombers). The pts for a/c makes the B-26s expensive to lose and this offsets the better bombload they have. So the two reasons I did not include it was the high vulnerability, and the fact they were not used as traditional day bombers in Normandy. Some designs may include them, for this one I chose not too.
That makes sense.
While you're on, as I understand it, the 234s are allowed to do bombing as well as carrying guns so long as they fulfill their recon role?
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"The Recon Aircraft have an OPTIONAL mission ability to make a tactical reconnaissance run." - from the write up.
I really want to avoid any confusion here. The recon missions are optional. That is to say if the CiC assigns them, they can, or, they can opt to just use them as just bombers. There are only 6 Arados per frame, they are really included for some history...and variety, they will certainly not be a "main type" in the FSO.
Same with the Spit 14s. They, as an option, be used as recon fighters, in the same fashion, or just be flown as a regular fighter. Its up to the CiC to assign them the tasks.
Both types can also, looking at the above, roll as a recon a/c, land, reup, and fly a fighter or bomber sortie. So there is room for some creativity here.
Regards.
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Was my bad. Upon picking my rides for next montth I was looking at the old Fso write up in Special events site. I t has not been updated yet and the write up looks similar.. :eek:
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With the Holiday Weekend coming up, Are we going to see sides or CICs selected?
Frame 1 CICs may find it tough with the holiday schedule.
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Was my bad. Upon picking my rides for next montth I was looking at the old Fso write up in Special events site. I t has not been updated yet and the write up looks similar..
Remember the events site is still being updated. That is why we have an FSO up and posted from 2 months ago.
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FSO dates are as stated, Frame 1 June 4th. No plans to not proceed with CiC, sides, ect as per usual. Any wrinkles we will work out.
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Spit 16?
Is this a typo for Spit9?
I need to know soon please.
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Just read the Designer notes and Im upset about the Spit16 replacing the Spit9. Not to mention they (allies) get a max of 48 Spit 162 and only a max of 24 Spit8's. Am I the only that sees this as a little unfair?
perdweeb
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Its not a typo.
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Just read the Designer notes and Im upset about the Spit16 replacing the Spit9. Not to mention they (allies) get a max of 48 Spit 162 and only a max of 24 Spit8's. Am I the only that sees this as a little unfair?
perdweeb
Nope. Not just you. I don't know how the Axis is meant to compete with inferior equipment and numbers..I predict alot of 1 way sorties :(
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what I don't understand is if this is late war, why is the K-4 and D-9 are excluded?
seems like it is quite one sided.
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I too am surprised there is not a mix of Spit 9's thrown into the Spit 16 category instead of omitting them outright.
Rest assured though, the FSO admin will make adjustments as needed for Frames 2 and 3.
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what I don't understand is if this is late war, why is the K-4 and D-9 are excluded?
seems like it is quite one sided.
Yes, that too...
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what I don't understand is if this is late war, why is the K-4 and D-9 are excluded?
seems like it is quite one sided.
K-4's and D-9's were not yet in service at the time of D-Day, i believe.
I too am confused why the allies have 48 spixteens.... :headscratch:
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I too am surprised there is not a mix of Spit 9's thrown into the Spit 16 category instead of omitting them outright.
Rest assured though, the FSO admin will make adjustments as needed for Frames 2 and 3.
I agree. If you are going to give Spit 16s in replacement of Spit 9e's, then we should have K4's in replacement for G10's.
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I agree. If you are going to give Spit 16s in replacement of Spit 9e's, then we should have K4's in replacement for G10's.
Werd. Too many 16's for sure. Not gonna be a long frame for alot of folks.
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I have to agree. This setup is no where near balanced. Some dedicated Axis guys will be able to make lemonade out of these lemons, but as a whole, Allies are going to dominate every single fight with guns, speed, and turnfighting performance.
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At FSO altitudes, greater than 20k, the Axis fastest plane is the G14. At these altitudes, it is slower than Spit16s, Spit14s, Spit8s, P38Js, and P47D25s. Below 8k, it is faster than these aircraft, but gets run down by the Typhoon. Take the fact that Axis will not be able to run and regroup, and add it to the fact that allies will be sporting 5 aircraft with hispanos... Spit16s, Spit8, P38Js, Typhoons, and Mosquitoes which can all dominate the G14s and A5s in the dive, well, it goes without saying. This is going to be a complete blood bath. If Axis had D9's and K4s, it would be more reasonable.
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Its not a typo.
Could you explain the thinking and reasoning on this then?
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At FSO altitudes, greater than 20k, the Axis fastest plane is the G14. At these altitudes, it is slower than Spit16s, Spit14s, Spit8s, P38Js, and P47D25s. Below 8k, it is faster than these aircraft, but gets run down by the Typhoon. Take the fact that Axis will not be able to run and regroup, and add it to the fact that allies will be sporting 5 aircraft with hispanos... Spit16s, Spit8, P38Js, Typhoons, and Mosquitoes which can all dominate the G14s and A5s in the dive, well, it goes without saying. This is going to be a complete blood bath. If Axis had D9's and K4s, it would be more reasonable.
You're comparing the aircraft in dogfite vs dogfite mode, keep in mind that many of the the Allied aircraft you've mentioned will need to be used in the more traditional roles than in the MA pick-a-thon mode. This is not one big furball fest.
Frame 2 will be adjusted accordingly, I'm sure.
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You're comparing the aircraft in dogfite vs dogfite mode, keep in mind that many of the the Allied aircraft you've mentioned will need to be used in the more traditional roles than in the MA pick-a-thon mode. This is not one big furball fest.
Frame 2 will be adjusted accordingly, I'm sure.
No I'm not. It's not even close.
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You're comparing the aircraft in dogfite vs dogfite mode, keep in mind that many of the the Allied aircraft you've mentioned will need to be used in the more traditional roles than in the MA pick-a-thon mode. This is not one big furball fest.
Frame 2 will be adjusted accordingly, I'm sure.
All of our planes are either out performed, or out gunned, or both.
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:huh Should be interesting to say the least. Nothing on the Axis lineup to compete with the Spit16s, P-38J, P-47 and B-26 at 30k. The Normandy invasion was a fail for the Germans, let's see if we can recreate history.
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All of our planes are either out performed, or out gunned, or both.
Ja.
Looks like the legendary skill, fighting spirit and courage under extreme condition of our Luftwaffe, will be needed called into play once again. Let them come. :airplane:
:airplane:
:airplane:
:airplane:
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Ja.
Looks like the legendary skill, fighting spirit and courage under extreme condition of our Luftwaffe, will be needed called into play once again. Let them come. :airplane:
:airplane:
:airplane:
:airplane:
That's some positive attitude. :salute
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Spit 16 is a joke. It would be the same for us to have K4s instead of g10s, as spikes said.
We have a spit 9 why not use it. I realize its a C and not an E.
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Spit 16 is a joke. It would be the same for us to have K4s instead of g10s, as spikes said.
:headscratch:
Limited to 12 per frame. The other 200+ Allied AC will be something else. Also thought it came out in the summer of 1944. What am I missing here?
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:headscratch:
Limited to 12 per frame. The other 200+ Allied AC will be something else. Also thought it came out in the summer of 1944. What am I missing here?
From OP:
Spitfire XVI (max 48)
IIRC the XVI was made operational in Oct of 44, deeming it unfit for this FSO.
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Oh I see my mistake. I looked at this line.
Recon Aircraft: Spitfire FR XIV (Spitfire XIV, 12 per frame) *Special mission aircraft*
:salute
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Oh I see my mistake. I looked at this line.
:salute
dd,
Like I said earlier. Alot of folks going to have a short night. I thought this was a typo or something. Really an way off planeset this operation.
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Oh I see my mistake. I looked at this line.
:salute
I figured sir :)
Have to agree with Stampf. I think the only people who might be able to survive are the 234s. if the props all dogfight.
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Just look at it on the face:
The axis is fielding:
a tanked 109, an early/midwar, 7mm equipped 190, and the 190A-8 which unless in the hands of pilots with alot of experience, might as well be a target drone, and even in the best of hands is woefully out matched and offers no offensive option, other than head on...which is hardly offensive.
EDIT: Now that is it on the face. Variables like tactics, circumstance, individual pilot abilities, luck and the way the battle unfolds will all play into the way the night goes of course, but looking at just the match-up, it's really not even a fight, with that many 16's deployable.
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The 109G-14 and the Spitfire XVI( LF IX) share the same time line for the ETO. Pls dont throw out stuff like "Same as K4s" without the facts, thanks.
Geezus. You guys make it sound like the Spitfires are F-86 Sabres. How about a little less drama?
The Spit XVI are capped ar 48.
The Spitfire VIIIs are capped at 12. (the 24 was from a previous copy and has been changed).
There is NO LIMIT AT ALL on 109G-14s, if you look.
Regards.
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The 109G-14 and the Spitfire XVI( LF IX) share the same time line for the ETO. Pls dont throw out stuff like "Same as K4s" without the facts, thanks.
Geezus. You guys make it sound like the Spitfires are F-86 Sabres. How about a little less drama?
The Spit XVI are capped ar 48.
The Spitfire VIIIs are capped at 12. (the 24 was from a previous copy and has been changed).
There is NO LIMIT AT ALL on 109G-14s, if you look.
Regards.
This is more of a hypothetical question, but what is ultimately more important in designing an FSO setup, Historical Accuracy or Balanced Matchups?
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Ja.
Looks like the legendary skill, fighting spirit and courage under extreme condition of our Luftwaffe, will be needed called into play once again. Let them come. :airplane:
:airplane:
:airplane:
:airplane:
:rock
:salute
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The 109G-14 and the Spitfire XVI( LF IX) share the same time line for the ETO. Pls dont throw out stuff like "Same as K4s" without the facts, thanks.
Geezus. You guys make it sound like the Spitfires are F-86 Sabres. How about a little less drama?
The Spit XVI are capped ar 48.
The Spitfire VIIIs are capped at 12. (the 24 was from a previous copy and has been changed).
There is NO LIMIT AT ALL on 109G-14s, if you look.
Regards.
It depends how you're looking at this...Yes the LF IX was in service. So was the G10. You are replacing the Spit LF IX with the 16 (Oct '44), so replace the G10 with the K4 (Nov '44). It is not like it's uneven...
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This is more of a hypothetical question, but what is ultimately more important in designing an FSO setup, Historical Accuracy or Balanced Matchups?
In my opinion, balance without question, but that does not mean we will not have setups where it is difficult for one side or another.
With many of the Allied fighters acting as strike AC I think this could work. Time will tell.
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When developing a historical match-up, the second thing the designer should be concerned with is "balance". The primary goal is to reenact the historical encounter, and for each side to be given the hand-cap or advantage it had for the real deal. I believe the goal of each side, per scoring, is to achieve better results that what actually happened in the real deal. Otherwise, we're simply meeting in the middle, punching it out like a playground fight, and letting the points fall where they may.
If the Axis was stomped on during the summer of 1944 over Normandy with a kill to death ratio of 1 to 9, then it goal should be to minimize losses and to maximize damage to the Allies and hope for a 1 to 4 kill to death ratio.
The FSO is an evolving concept, give the designers a perpetual chance to keep improving.
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When developing a historical match-up, the second thing the designer should be concerned with is "balance". The primary goal is to reenact the historical encounter, and for each side to be given the hand-cap or advantage it had for the real deal. I believe the goal of each side, per scoring, is to achieve better results that what actually happened in the real deal. Otherwise, we're simply meeting in the middle, punching it out like a playground fight, and letting the points fall where they may.
If the Axis was stomped on during the summer of 1944 over Normandy with a kill to death ratio of 1 to 9, then it goal should be to minimize losses and to maximize damage to the Allies and hope for a 1 to 4 kill to death ratio.
The FSO is an evolving concept, give the designers a perpetual chance to keep improving.
I can agree with this. However, if the Axis get spanked by the Allies and most have no fun, such as the Final Battle in a couple frames, what is the point, since the point of scenarios/FSOs are yes, to recreate a battle, but to have fun as well?
I just think that the logic behind the substitution of the Spit 9 with the Spit 16 is flawed and needs to be matched with an Axis ride.
The G6's can possibly match the Spit VIII's, in the hands of a good pilot.
The allies have many planes his hispanos:
Typh, Spits, Mossie, 38.
The P51 and Jug are the only with out, and those have great diving ability, speed, and 6-8 50's to make up for the lack of cannons.
The axis have, with 20mms:
A5s, A8s (+30s), F8s, G14s (+30s), G6s, 234s (Yes I will add that in).
Now in a turn fight, you can count the A8s, F8s, and 234s out.
That leaves the A5s, G14s, and G6s.
The A5s have good cannons, but lack a bit in maneuverability (a bit, I've seen some guys fight that bird well)
The G14s and G6s are a bit better, but lack firepower if you do not take the gondolas.
Now, the Spit IX that we have is faster than the A5s, G14s, and Spit 16s at 26K.
In Turn Radius, the Spit IX is very close to the Spit XVI at flaps and no flaps.
It also is close in acceleration. It is also close in Lethality and Maximum Speed @ low alt.
So with very little losses in performance that won't be noticeably different in the field, why does it need to be replaced?
Now to the K4 and G14.
If the K4 is added, it would give us a viable option to fight the P51s at high altitude, as they compete well speed wise at any altitude.
Now, the P51 is still theoretically a better plane than the K4, since it is easier to handle and has a better gun selection. That said, why would giving the Axis a better fighting chance at bringing the score closer be a bad thing? A 2 weeker has a much better chance at hitting a plane with 1880 50 cals than he does at hitting a plane with 65 30mm rounds.
Now I am not whining or complaining, or trying to give the Axis a distinct advantage over the Allies and simply adding the K4 as a high alt bird does nothing of the sort. But it would certainly help us 'rewrite history' if it is at all possible.
In conclusion, it would be much appreciated if the K4 would be let in as a sub for the G10 that we do not have, that would have made a nice impact in this FSO.
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In my opinion, balance without question, but that does not mean we will not have setups where it is difficult for one side or another.
With many of the Allied fighters acting as strike AC I think this could work. Time will tell.
Honestly, this might be the most lop sided FSO I have ever seen, on paper. I am expecting results to prove my point, but AoM will fight its damnedest to even it out regardless.
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Honestly, this might be the most lop sided FSO I have ever seen, on paper. I am expecting results to prove my point, but AoM will fight its damnedest to even it out regardless.
Hell ya :aok
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When developing a historical match-up, the second thing the designer should be concerned with is "balance". The primary goal is to reenact the historical encounter, and for each side to be given the hand-cap or advantage it had for the real deal.
Sorry sir. Could not disagree more. Been involved with FSO since the beginning. Always stressed to those I trained that balance takes precedence over historically accuracy. A late war Pacific setup would not be much fun with out some over representations of the Ki-84's and the N1K2's. Same would be true for some 1945 setup's. Both would have an overwhelming number of Allied pilots, but to keep it balanced we split the numbers pretty close to 50/50. The 'balance' is what has made FSO so popular over the years, not the historical accuracy.
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Honestly, this might be the most lop sided FSO I have ever seen, on paper. I am expecting results to prove my point, but AoM will fight its damnedest to even it out regardless.
Do you remember last month? :headscratch: Rangoon Sunrise had to be the most lop sided FSO that I can remember in all my years. Frankly, I expect the Axis to win each frame this month.
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Sorry sir. Could not disagree more. Been involved with FSO since the beginning. Always stressed to those I trained that balance takes precedence over historically accuracy. A late war Pacific setup would not be much fun with out some over representations of the Ki-84's and the N1K2's. Same would be true for some 1945 setup's. Both would have an overwhelming number of Allied pilots, but to keep it balanced we split the numbers pretty close to 50/50. The 'balance' is what has made FSO so popular over the years, not the historical accuracy.
Don't confuse "balance" with playability. Meeting in the middle and playing for kills shouldn't always be the name of the game. Otherwise, it is no different than than the MA. Adding in aircraft that may not have been there is completely fine, but as long as they dont sway the battle way way too far.
I also agree that a complete substitute of the Spit16 for the Spit9 is questionable, but I didnt set this FSO up. As I've said before, I bet there will be adjustments for Frames 2 and 3.
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Lets dont forget the aspect of "strategy" here.
If one side is at a disadvantage by plane selction there is still room to counter that with tactics.
HOWEVER.....If there is an imbalance there should be a reason for it. A reason in the scenario.
We do have to consider the fun factor. We should be able to make contact and fight at some time. So the option of not engaging is not an option.
Historical accuracy is important and is one of the reasons we have the FSO. But, no one is going to play a lopsided FSO. The FSO still has to consider the fun factor.
I think it should be 50 fun, 50 historical accuracy.