Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SpinMan on May 24, 2010, 06:08:45 PM
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Ive said this before, then I fly some until it annoys the hell out of me then I feel the need to whine again.
Buff lethality is insane, this wwii flight sim as its advertised is becoming less sim and more video game. Perhaps thats where the studies of the Dev's have told them their market is. The day a single set of 17's, 26's etc can fend off and defeat a pair or 3 fighters is crazy. A decent gunner in this game can stop anyone getting within striking range of ships, fields or towns. Flying is tough so I'll try gunning, well this is tough, so HTC makes it easier??? Fly against the CV 5" or anything other than nose on to 17's, anywhere within 1500yds of a flak or PT you will see what I mean, this needs to be addressed and balanced out, HTC seems to always correct one issue by creating another. Not that my simple monthly fee will make or break this business nor is my opinion carrying any weight, I am sure im not the only one of this opinion.
Spin
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Agreed. We have CV gunners nailing bombers at 15k, we have bomber gunners nailing guys at 1000yds. Hell, we even have 37mm AA guns firing HE taking down tanks from the side. I can see from the rear, and at point blank range, but at 1k is a little ridiculous.
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Maybe you need to learn new methods for attacking your white wales instead of blaming the game for your pitfalls.
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Jayhawk, I can at least see your point on the bombers (at least for 1 or 2 attackers, but 3 is starting to push it IMO), but even you must agree that CV ack is ludicrous.
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The day a single set of 17's, 26's etc can fend off and defeat a pair or 3 fighters is crazy.
Only if those 3 fighters attack bombers in the most stupid way... which most AH players unfortunately do.
When I'm in a bomber I see 9 out of 10 players simply creep up my six. I'm a mediocre buff gunner, but most of the time I can blast them.
But each time I see someone is simply taking his time to get into a serious attack position... I know I'm about to die.
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Jayhawk, I can at least see your point on the bombers (at least for 1 or 2 attackers, but 3 is starting to push it IMO), but even you must agree that CV ack is ludicrous.
I've never liked that auto CV ack can keep up with a fighter doing maneuvers at 20,000 ft going 400mph. The auto gunners would have to know where I'm going sometime before I even do. However, If a guy sitting in those guns is just good enough to knock my bombers down at 15,000ft, more power to him, he earned that skill through practice.
To reiterate Lusche's point, my bombers can take down 15 fighters if they all slip in at dead six one at a time. IMO, patience is the most important thing when attacking bombers, once you start hurrying to try and kill bombers, you're dead meat.
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And lets not also forget that bomber guns are firing backwards so they hit with more force because you're flying into his bullets. (if you attack from the rear quarter that is)
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Ive said this before, then I fly some until it annoys the hell out of me then I feel the need to whine again.
Buff lethality is insane, this wwii flight sim as its advertised is becoming less sim and more video game. Perhaps thats where the studies of the Dev's have told them their market is. The day a single set of 17's, 26's etc can fend off and defeat a pair or 3 fighters is crazy.
That gunner in the buff was lucky to encounter 3 players without any sort of knowledge on how to properly attack a bomber formation. If anyone of those 3 had a clue, the gunner along with his formation would be dead. No matter how good of a gunner or bomber pilot you are, you will lose 99.99% of the time to the fighter pilot that knows what he's doing.
A decent gunner in this game can stop anyone getting within striking range of ships, fields or towns.
Grossly exaggerated but hey, you were on a roll.
Flying is tough so I'll try gunning, well this is tough, so HTC makes it easier??? Fly against the CV 5" or anything other than nose on to 17's, anywhere within 1500yds of a flak or PT you will see what I mean, this needs to be addressed and balanced out, HTC seems to always correct one issue by creating another. Not that my simple monthly fee will make or break this business nor is my opinion carrying any weight, I am sure im not the only one of this opinion.
Spin
You're dying because you're not being smart when attacking things like PT boats, flak panzies, bombers and the like. You're blaming the game for what is basically your own doing. Not much different than the people that cry to perk the Spitfire Mk XVI because they can't fight against one. I guess, just like screaming "PERK IT!", it's far easier just to scream "FIX IT!" instead of taking some time to learn and practice and build up on your skills.
ack-ack
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Yea 5" puffy ack is the single most annoying thing in Aces High.
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Learn to attack bombers from the front, or high/ low slashing attacks from the sides.
Dead 6 is called that for a very good reason. Your movement relative to the bomber is virtually nil.
Add to that the the formations defensive guns converge at 500 yards, anyone who sits behind a bomber from 800 to 300 yards out is going to die. Why? Because he is a stationary target at convergence for the bombers guns. The gunner can put his crosshairs on your cockpit pull the trigger and you will run into those bullets.
Fighter > 300 mph * <<<Bullets going 3000 feet per second.
Come into the TA, learn how to make high or low slashing side attacks. Learn to avoid the danger zones, learn to always be a moving target in the 800 - 300 foot zone. Its not hard, it just takes a bit of educating, and discipline.
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Bombers fly too fast in this game (unhistorically) thereby forcing even a plane in good attack position to fall into a trailing dead-6 attack after only 1, maybe 2 passes.
If you were flying along at historical speeds of 180mph, they wouldn't fall into that dead 6 trap that AH facilitates.
Think about that, Beef, Lusche. It's the speed of the bombers that limits even the best attackers' options.
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Bombers fly too fast in this game (unhistorically) thereby forcing even a plane in good attack position to fall into a trailing dead-6 attack after only 1, maybe 2 passes.
If you were flying along at historical speeds of 180mph, they wouldn't fall into that dead 6 trap that AH facilitates.
Think about that, Beef, Lusche. It's the speed of the bombers that limits even the best attackers' options.
Krusty! *facepalms* It's not the speed that limits options, it's the patience of the attacking pilot that limits the options. A pilot that's cool and takes his time to setup, attack, withdraw, and setup again will usually succeed against me. A pilot that sets up, attacks, and then tries a desperate move will usually die and this is what I see 90% of the time in the MA.
Most of the fighters in AH can overtake most of the bombers. Granted sometimes the closure rates can be slow if the bomber is at full power but that doesn't limit the options, it just means the attacking pilot has to plan his attacks and decide how much time he's going to invest in trying to shoot me down. I've had fights that lasted 20+ minutes where a good pilot has dogged me all the way to target or home making great passes and giving me poor firing arcs/shots.
Going full power to escape is my defense against impatient pilots. Most people don't want to spend time setting things up so they just go for it and dive into the area that has the most guns pointed at it and pay the price. Is flying at full speed unhistorical? Possibly. But if I'm under attack and my B17 can do 280mph at full power don't think I won't firewall that throttle.
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I must point out that following the logic of bullets doing more damage because you are flying into them, then they would do even more damage when attacking head on, as you have the speed of the bomber, the speed of the bullet and the speed of the fighter all working together, where as from dead 6, you have the speed of the fight and the speed of the bullet minus the speed of the bomber.
As to the attack position thing:
I must agree, I've taken out a set of B-17's withought taking a ping by HO'ing them, and attacking from the 3 or 9 o'clock possition after the HO.
In a pinch (you are unable to get in possition before the drop, or your engine is damaged) the 4 20mm's in my 190 are VERY effective at sawing the wings off of bombers while outside of effective range of retaliaton.
As to the 5" man guns knocking down bombers at 15k, show me 5 examples of a single 5" gun knocking down a set of 3 bombers at 15k with only 10-20 rounds expended.
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Bombers fly too fast in this game (unhistorically) thereby forcing even a plane in good attack position to fall into a trailing dead-6 attack after only 1, maybe 2 passes.
Not true at all. You will only get into a trailing position if you allow yourself to, it is easy to set up sequential attacks without ending up on the bomber's dead six.
ack-ack
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Not so Ack-Ack... Even in a position of alt and speed, you make 1 pass and even if you move along the same path as the bombers, they move so fast that by the time you reposition for a second pass they are pulling away. Every jink/evasive you pull while zooming past them serves only to bleed your speed.
Beef, you're wrong on that part. The speed of the bombers limits you to chasing them down. You try any manuvers that does NOT take you along the path of the bomber (dive with them, not against them), and you cannot reposition for another attack as they are well outside guns range and heading away.
You try a HO with a bomber formation and you won't get back in position behind them for a long time. Slashing attacks from the side also have this problem, as you are flying on a tangent and they are going straight, you have to cover far far more ground to make an attack than they do simply by flying level.
Historic B-17G speeds were 185 mph cruising, B-24s 20mph or so faster. In this game they're almost always going 300+ mph.
Don't try and tell me that there's no difference attacking a bomber going 185mph than there is one going 300mph. I'll have you know my main prey every month before all this server splitting and reorganizing (right around when my game time was cut down to nil) by a large % my most-killed-planes were the heavy bombers. I've spent a lot of time in this game attacking them, chasing them, working on them from various angles. I can tell you that from any angle, the speed of the bombers forces the attacker to either waste 10 minutes slowly trying to overtake and climb above them (by which time they've flown 50+ miles, dropped their load, and are no longer much of a threat to your country) or you resort to dead-6 attacks because you're only 10mph faster than they are.
Bombers are too fast in this game. They don't have engines that overheat. One of them (B-17G I think?) runs at full-time WEP settings. They can enter your country's radar, bomb your field, and be out the other side of the radar ring before you can even climb up to them, let alone build up speed and overtake them.
300mph = 1 sector crossed in 5 minutes. 1 radar ring = ~12.5 miles (roughly a sector?) from the edge to the field, meaning a bomber can get in and drop bombs in 2.5 minutes. Even a Komet rocket taking off would have a hard time getting to 20k, getting up to speed, making attack runs on and stopping bombers in those conditions.
The entire setup fosters unhistorical bomber gameplay.
EDIT: I don't agree with the topic that the weapons are over powered, I'm simply saying these comments about bombers being just fine are wrong.
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Don't try and tell me that there's no difference attacking a bomber going 185mph than there is one going 300mph.
I don't think either are saying that, but you can make successful attacks with patience and planning.
Out of curiosity, do you propose making bomber's engines overheat?
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A few points.
1. The vast majority of game play is "unhistoric".
2. Fighter engines don't overheat either.
3. With the exception of the Boston, which is rare enough in the MA to be considered moot, the only piston powered bomber that does 300mph in level flight is the 17, and it does that speed at ~30k.
4. Bombers are meat.
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B-24 can pull 301 at alt and the Ki-67 can pull over 325mph at 20k or so.
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the Ki-67 can pull over 325mph at 20k or so.
Yea forgot about that one, probably due to the fact that hardly anyone ever flies them.
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IDK about that, and the boston is more common than you think. Often they leave formations in the hanger, and their icon is the same as the A20's from a distance. They A20 you see flying about 10-15k is most likely a boston since 15k is above where the A20 is fastest.
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Krusty if you can catch them from dead 6, then you can catch them echelon'd off to the side 1k. Then turn and attack from the side instead of flying up his 6.
It really is that simple.
I know you have a pet peeve about bombers flying faster than they did in some situations.
But it really doesn't apply here.
Bomber engines were designed for long runs. And even if they did pull the throttle back a bit when flying with a large formations. That really doesn't effect their top speed that much. At 250 - 300 mph, 5 mph difference is minor.
It certainly won't make the fighter attacking have it any easier. And the very first thing a bomber would do when it sees a fighter is firewall the throttle.
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Not so Ack-Ack... Even in a position of alt and speed, you make 1 pass and even if you move along the same path as the bombers, they move so fast that by the time you reposition for a second pass they are pulling away. Every jink/evasive you pull while zooming past them serves only to bleed your speed.
No matter how often you will claim this, it's still not true.
Buff busting is my business in AH, and I make repeated successive attacks on them without seeing them "pulling away". Unless they fly 25k+ (which only a utter minority does), one should have no real problem to catch up, overtake, do repeated attacks.
(http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/571/speedcompnt5.jpg)
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No matter how often you will claim this, it's still not true.
And no matter how many times we try to explain this to him, he refuses to budge. I don't even have the energy to joust with him anymore on this one.
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3. With the exception of the Boston, which is rare enough in the MA to be considered moot, the only piston powered bomber that does 300mph in level flight is the 17, and it does that speed at ~30k.
Empty lancs can do something like 320 @ 34k. :D
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I must point out that following the logic of bullets doing more damage because you are flying into them, then they would do even more damage when attacking head on, as you have the speed of the bomber, the speed of the bullet and the speed of the fighter all working together, where as from dead 6, you have the speed of the fight and the speed of the bullet minus the speed of the bomber.
Nemisis beetle is correct but for the wrong reasons. At longer range the bullets relative speed is faster then when shooting backwards. This is simply because the drag is a V^2 function.
The simplest way to in vision it is a bomber going 300 mph shoots a bullet backwards with a muzzle vel of 300 mph. Relative to the ground and air it would not be moving. But even if a fighter is 1 mile behind traveling at 300 mph he will still hit that bullet at 300mph.
Same case forward the bullet would slow down very quickly with a 600mph air speed and strike the fighter moving at 300mph with a speed less then 300 depending on the distance.
HiTech
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the game can be incredibly frustrating at times but there are always ways to defeat the reds. Always. The challenge of it keeps me interested.
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Not so Ack-Ack... Even in a position of alt and speed, you make 1 pass and even if you move along the same path as the bombers, they move so fast that by the time you reposition for a second pass they are pulling away. Every jink/evasive you pull while zooming past them serves only to bleed your speed.
Yes, you can.
You come in for your first pass from above, after you make your pass you extend out of gun range while in a shallow climb. When you get beyond gun range, you pull up into the vertical and come over teh top and back down on the bomber formation. You will not be in the trailing position when you make your 2nd attack. Make your 2nd pass, repeat extending beyond gun range, pull into the vertical come over teh top and dive back down on the last remaining bomber. If done correctly, each pass set up you for the subsequent pass and you will not end up at the trailing position.
The only time you would end up in a trailing position is if you extended to short or you stayed in a vertical climb for too long.
ack-ack
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I have never been a bomber gunner during WWII, nor have I ever played one on TV...but my father WAS.
Anyone dumb enough to come up from dead 6 was just that...dead. Anyone dumb enough to parallel a bomber 1000 yards out was (probably) going to have additional ventilation added to their aircraft.
Where AH and reality grossly diverge is where fighters attack bombers solo and where the bomber guns are all ganged together. As near as I can tell second hand, there were bad guys coming in from multiple angles (and not always at YOU, but very likely at someone near by) and every gunner chose whichever target looked the most dangerous. They NEVER (at least the training was very specific about this) fired on a fighter after closest approach; the odds didn't favor a hit and the guy coming in was more threatening.
...ok, so the Icons were harder to see and hit sprites were often lost in the excitement...
I've put my dad in a bomber gun and he did annoyingly well for an 80-something that doesn't fly AH. Way, way better than the punk kid with the good hand-eye coordination and no real-life experience, anyway.
The best view in the aircraft...Emerson nose turret on a B-24. Nothing but glass between you and the whole Pacific Ocean.
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Only if those 3 fighters attack bombers in the most stupid way... which most AH players unfortunately do.
When I'm in a bomber I see 9 out of 10 players simply creep up my six. I'm a mediocre buff gunner, but most of the time I can blast them.
But each time I see someone is simply taking his time to get into a serious attack position... I know I'm about to die.
Interesting when your bomber is cruising around at 300 mph huh?
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Interesting when your bomber is cruising around at 300 mph huh?
The "heavies" can't do 300mph when loaded and the only ones that can are rarely used. Even then what fighters are unable to catch/overtake a buff doing 300mph? F4F? I-16? The only planes which might not able to overtake a 300mph bomber are planes that are not suited to attack buffs in the first place, IE it's the wrong tool for the job.
Most pilots are just lazy and impatient and refuse to take the time needed for a good attack. Instead they charge in low and slow from dead six and promptly get sent back to the tower in short order.
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Maybe you need to learn new methods for attacking your white wales instead of blaming the game for your pitfalls.
Im presuming however never actually clarified that a non stupid approach was taken, on making this post myself and 2 other seasoned pilots dove in on a flight of 17's manned by a skillful gunner (1) the same guy supposedly flying the things:) We took one buff each and differed in our attack angles. On 1st pass two of us were smoked or PW'd on making a second pass we were finished off, I was killed eggressing front to rear, 400 kias coupled with his 250 should have had me ripping off into the distance faster than his rounds could catch me...or so I thought:P Smoking but otherwise undamaged the flight carried on its merry way. Historically single 17's have successfully defended of single attackers at high alts but rarely multiples......did I mention the 5" guns on the carriers:)
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Im presuming however never actually clarified that a non stupid approach was taken, on making this post myself and 2 other seasoned pilots dove in on a flight of 17's manned by a skillful gunner (1) the same guy supposedly flying the things:) We took one buff each and differed in our attack angles. On 1st pass two of us were smoked or PW'd on making a second pass we were finished off, I was killed eggressing front to rear, 400 kias coupled with his 250 should have had me ripping off into the distance faster than his rounds could catch me...or so I thought:P Smoking but otherwise undamaged the flight carried on its merry way. Historically single 17's have successfully defended of single attackers at high alts but rarely multiples......did I mention the 5" guns on the carriers:)
The reason why the B-17 gunner was able to defend his bomber against multiple attackers came in stupid and got shot up and paid the price. It isn't a case of the guns on a B-17 or any other bomber being too uber, it's just a simple case of not using the correct tactics to engage and shoot down a gunned B-17 in this game.
ack-ack
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That gunner in the buff was lucky to encounter 3 players without any sort of knowledge on how to properly attack a bomber formation. If anyone of those 3 had a clue, the gunner along with his formation would be dead. No matter how good of a gunner or bomber pilot you are, you will lose 99.99% of the time to the fighter pilot that knows what he's doing.
Grossly exaggerated but hey, you were on a roll.
You're dying because you're not being smart when attacking things like PT boats, flak panzies, bombers and the like. You're blaming the game for what is basically your own doing. Not much different than the people that cry to perk the Spitfire Mk XVI because they can't fight against one. I guess, just like screaming "PERK IT!", it's far easier just to scream "FIX IT!" instead of taking some time to learn and practice and build up on your skills.
ack-ack
Id agree with you if I were some nub that hasn't been around a while. The point im getting at is these guns werent that lethal before and now they are, explain where any level of extra skill or lack there of fixes this? The lethality of these guns have been increased....Or am I incorrect? Certainly feels like it to me. We all have room to improve which is what keeps these genres from getting stale. FYI ive been around since the days of Dos on the Genie server many many years ago, I understand apples to apples and all. Restore the balance
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The bombers in AH are clearly more effective air-to-air than they were historically. Personally I think it is a combination of speed and overly stiff mounts increasing accuracy.
That said, it is pretty much a required gameplay concession. If bombers did not have a reasonable chance to fight off fighters, they wouldn't get used much at all.
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Perhaps its not the particular 50cal round that is the issue, but certainly the convergence of all the guns firing from all the aircraft all converging on the the same point from 1 single gunner is certainly frustrating. The amount of time invested by the devs to do their homework and make the game dynamics and performances of the a/c realistic should IMHO be consistant throughout. As said in the 1st instance im whining:) I recall fondly the days of 1 manned position 1 gun firing, if you wanted more success you recruited gunners to fill positions....Have I mentioned the 5" and puffy?
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Perhaps its not the particular 50cal round that is the issue, but certainly the convergence of all the guns firing from all the aircraft all converging on the the same point from 1 single gunner is certainly frustrating.
They don't do that.
The guns from a single bomber fire in parallel to each other. These streams of parallel flying bullets from the three bombers cross each other at the fixed distance of 500 yards. This means that in most cases only one bomber can even be hitting you, but it does create a shotgun effect making individual hits more likely.
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I don't think that's correct karnak, otherwise there would never be a purpose to coding formations in the first place. I believe all bomber guns on all ships converge at 500 yards, not just the plane you are firing from.
Otherwise there would never be multiple hits and from my personal experience it seems there are multiple hits from different drones on the same target.
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Krusty,
You misread what I wrote. The guns an an individual bomber don't converge at all. The streams from each of the three bombers converge at 500 yards.
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I do seem to recall a challenge from Urchin to Toad, in which Urchin's argument was along the lines of Karnak's, and Toad's argument was along the line of everyone else. IIRC, Toad failed to shoot down Urchin's bombers.
Ofcourse, this once incident doesn't prove anything, but it does give you something to think about. Maybe it's just that the "buffs are easy to kill" guys never really meet people as experienced in gunnery as themselves manning the defensive guns in buffs. I mean, usually people who fly buffs are not really the 'vet' sort of people, and all.
Maybe the vets who feel confident in both gunnery and flying skills should get together and actually test it out to see how often one can so 'easily' shoot down buffs that are manned by people actually as skilled as theselves. Might be interesting to see how the results come out.
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I do seem to recall a challenge from Urchin to Toad, in which Urchin's argument was along the lines of Karnak's, and Toad's argument was along the line of everyone else. IIRC, Toad failed to shoot down Urchin's bombers.
Ofcourse, this once incident doesn't prove anything, but it does give you something to think about. Maybe it's just that the "buffs are easy to kill" guys never really meet people as experienced in gunnery as themselves manning the defensive guns in buffs. I mean, usually people who fly buffs are not really the 'vet' sort of people, and all.
Maybe the vets who feel confident in both gunnery and flying skills should get together and actually test it out to see how often one can so 'easily' shoot down buffs that are manned by people actually as skilled as theselves. Might be interesting to see how the results come out.
I can assure you I have been up to the best buff gunenrs in game, guys that are almost exclusively & successfully bombers, as buff hunting is my main mission in AH .
They are are tremendoulsy dangerous game, not only by pure gunning skill but also by using formations, altitude & routing to maximum effect.
But still, as long as I don't get careless and keep on utilizing the weapons speed & angles, they go down most of the time, not me. It's no comparison to guys with a similar skill level in fighters, those kick me around all the time.
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I do seem to recall a challenge from Urchin to Toad, in which Urchin's argument was along the lines of Karnak's, and Toad's argument was along the line of everyone else. IIRC, Toad failed to shoot down Urchin's bombers.
Ofcourse, this once incident doesn't prove anything, but it does give you something to think about. Maybe it's just that the "buffs are easy to kill" guys never really meet people as experienced in gunnery as themselves manning the defensive guns in buffs. I mean, usually people who fly buffs are not really the 'vet' sort of people, and all.
Maybe the vets who feel confident in both gunnery and flying skills should get together and actually test it out to see how often one can so 'easily' shoot down buffs that are manned by people actually as skilled as theselves. Might be interesting to see how the results come out.
Karnak vs 999000!!!!!! A fight to the death :D!!!!!
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Krusty,
You misread what I wrote. The guns an an individual bomber don't converge at all. The streams from each of the three bombers converge at 500 yards.
My bad, you're right I misread you.
EDIT: But I thought each turret on each plane also converged, not just fired parallel. Otherwise waist guns and dorsal/ball guns would never hit the same target coming in from the side, tail and dorsal would never hit targets coming in hich 6, etc.
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Krusty,
That is a common error. Many people seem to think they converge, but they really don't. This doesn't have much effect when coming up the 6 of a B-17 as the ball turret's guns are, what, 2-3 ft below the tail guns, but it does have a large effect on side shots.
Go offline and shoot at the target from various angles off the bomber and it will show up.
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I've attacked the buff formation of the best gunners in the game with my fragile and meekly armed p51 and done just fine. If you are having trouble killing them or getting multiple passes, your methods are flawed.
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I agree with Krusty only in the case of attacking bombers flying in the stratosphere. Anything under 15k is easy to get above and out in front of in setup for a successful attack.
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Ive said this before, then I fly some until it annoys the hell out of me then I feel the need to whine again.
Buff lethality is insane, this wwii flight sim as its advertised is becoming less sim and more video game. Perhaps thats where the studies of the Dev's have told them their market is. The day a single set of 17's, 26's etc can fend off and defeat a pair or 3 fighters is crazy. A decent gunner in this game can stop anyone getting within striking range of ships, fields or towns. Flying is tough so I'll try gunning, well this is tough, so HTC makes it easier??? Fly against the CV 5" or anything other than nose on to 17's, anywhere within 1500yds of a flak or PT you will see what I mean, this needs to be addressed and balanced out, HTC seems to always correct one issue by creating another. Not that my simple monthly fee will make or break this business nor is my opinion carrying any weight, I am sure im not the only one of this opinion.
Spin
Buffs require patience... If you fly them, it takes a long time to get where you're going, especially at an altitude that gives you a margin of safety. If you're in a fighter, it takes patience to get into a position to attack from above, and be able to zoom forward so you can set up another steep attack.
In either case, rushing the situation just leads to frustration. It takes time to set things up right. Like almost everyone mentioned, if you attack bombers "wrong", they're lethal. If you attack them "right" though, they're very vulnerable. Maybe even too vulnerable?
Attack them in a steep dive. Try not to go too much below them as you go by, and zoom forward for your next attack. In a case like this one, looping works fine. Had I not had quite as much speed, my attack would more closely resemble a very large barrel roll with my shooting taking place at the bottom of the coils. If you find yourself unable to attack in a steep dive, stop attacking. Fly parallel with them, getting out front and above them, and set up a decent attack. As you get better at it, you can afford more risk, but be careful, there are a few really good shots out there!
This type of attack is easy to master, and very effective. I had a month where I paid attention to my K/D vs buffs a few years ago. Using this type of attack, my K/D against all bombers was roughly 80 or 90 to 1. The one was a C47 that jinked a bit while I was too fast and I rammed him, lol. Embarrassing... Take the time it takes to set up this type of attack, and get good at it. Then, you can start to attack without such a good position, and you'll still do fine. Don't worry about whether they've dropped their ord or not. That will just cause you to rush things. Set up the kill, and worry about getting quick at it later. Bombers begin to look like "gimme" kills after a while.
http://www.4shared.com/file/0h_xSRI2/6_buffs_with_Saber.html (these were set afire, but it doesn't seem to show in this film).
http://www.4shared.com/file/wUpB-EdR/Lancs_0000.html
You don't need big cannons, or a long time to land your shots. A decent hit in the right place and they really don't stand much of a chance. Don't sit behind them, or attack at a shallow dive angle. Minimize the time you're exposed to their guns. Shoot for the cockpit, wingtip, or wing root. Clear the right drone first, left drone second, and lead bomber last. If you light one on fire, it will die. Time your dive so that as you get in range for your second pass, the burning plane has already died. Attacking from front to back works fine for one pass, but makes subsequent passes take forever to set up.
Like Grizz mentioned, bombers at 15K or less qualify as pretty easy targets. Bombers from 15-20K can be pretty tough. Bombers above 20 can be killed, but are very tough.