Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: jdbecks on May 26, 2010, 03:39:41 PM
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I was just wondering how pilots navigated during WW2? say a P51 pilot on a several hour flight who has to fly his plane and still navigate? how would they navigate back to base if they get lost? lets say they engage some enemy fighters and loose track to where they are and do not recognise any near by land marks?
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Combination of dead reckoning, and old fashioned think your way out of a hole.
Example, if I was a Pony pilot over france and got lost, first thing I'd do is head west and look for the coast.
Once I find the coast then its decision time, does this look like the coast S of dover, or N?
Somewhere in the process you'll find a landmark, take a bearing from it to where you want to be and set a course.
Of course that is what happened to 5 navy planes in formation off florida too!
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Of course the trickey part is the Mediteranean, where you won't have France to guide you :aok
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Of course that is what happened to 5 navy planes in formation off florida too!
Yeah, the Extra-Terrestrials got 'em :aok
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yup, no VOR's back then either :P
and no ATC lol best thing is just situational awareness, landmarks, and common sense.
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yup, no VOR's back then either :P
and no ATC lol best thing is just situational awareness, landmarks, and common sense.
Actually, they did have radio homing in the aircraft, and later in the war, especially the U.S. Navy, they could be vectored in to the ship via radar vectors.
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Of course the trickey part is the Mediteranean, where you won't have France to guide you :aok
Or those crazy navy pilots, their runway doesn't even have the courtesy to be in the same place that they took off from, all they have to look at is vast stretches of blue ocean.
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Actually, they did have radio homing in the aircraft, and later in the war, especially the U.S. Navy, they could be vectored in to the ship via radar vectors.
Yup. That's what the big arrow on the dial compass in the F4U's was for: Radio Direction Finder
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ADF was in it's infancy in the USN at the end of WW2 and was unreliable at best. More often than not the Pilot had to listen to the two letter Morse code letters and listen to see if it got stronger or weaker as he turned the plane. Also given that this was HF radio it was greatly influenced by local atmospheric conditions and you might not even be able to hear the transmitter less than 100 miles away. Radar vectoring could be done if you were within 70 miles of the carrier and high enough to be pinged.
For most of the war primary aerial navigation in the USN consisted of maintaining a DRT board of the flight. Attack groups were briefed about the "planned position" for the carrier on their return, and was usually an area of about 20 square miles.
At the very end, the first of what later became LORAN stations (in the summer of 45 they were called SHORAN) were established in the Pacific.
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ADF was in it's infancy in the USN at the end of WW2 and was unreliable at best. More often than not the Pilot had to listen to the two letter Morse code letters and listen to see if it got stronger or weaker as he turned the plane. Also given that this was HF radio it was greatly influenced by local atmospheric conditions and you might not even be able to hear the transmitter less than 100 miles away. Radar vectoring could be done if you were within 70 miles of the carrier and high enough to be pinged.
For most of the war primary aerial navigation in the USN consisted of maintaining a DRT board of the flight. Attack groups were briefed about the "planned position" for the carrier on their return, and was usually an area of about 20 square miles.
At the very end, the first of what later became LORAN stations (in the summer of 45 they were called SHORAN) were established in the Pacific.
What was the VHF systems the USAAF aircraft had then? I see them described in the POHs, and they don't look like ADF, especially operating in the VHF spectrum. They look more like an early form of VOR.
Also, I know the PBJ squadrons did a lot of "navigating" for fighters on long strike missions. What nav gear did the PBJ have that made them useful to the fighters on these long over-water missions? Just having a navigator crewman?
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My grandfather got lost more than once due to "navigator error". Luckily for him, all of his missions were up and down the "slot", so he and the rest of the crew just had to verify certain islands to get their bearings back on track and heading in the right direction to the nearest airfield.
There was a reason in WWII in the PTO aircraft very rarely took off with less than %100 fuel.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/63/AN-MRN-2.jpg/619px-AN-MRN-2.jpg)
This was the most common system used by the Army in the second half of WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/MRN-2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/MRN-2)
From Wiki
"The set is a ground mobile, two course, VHF aural Radio Range with station identification, periodic sector identification and simultaneous voice transmission. it is a crystal controlled set and operates in the frequency range of 100 to 156 Mc. for use in guiding aircraft equipped with VHF radio receivers, such as SCR-522, to a landing field, or for use along ferry routes. effective range is 100 Miles."
This is a description of the aural radio range from the SCR-277
"In operation the transmitter sends out signals coded "A" or "N" in each of the four quadrants around the beacon. The signals overlap on the range, providing the pilot of the aircraft an indication of his position in relation to location of the beacon. Thus, if he is heading toward the beacon he will receive an aural signal coded "A" or "N" if he is between the beam, and when he is on the beam he will receive "AN" signal."
It was common for a pilot to get disoriented listening to the "A" or "N" in Morse code, and fly the reciprocal course by mistake.
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Excuse me but thats deceptive if your talking about VHF. Its 100 miles with clean line of sight and an aircraft at 10000 feet. Its 200 miles at 20000 feet (maximum useful range) but only 50 miles at 5000. Pilots with VHF equipment were instructed to climb to at least 8000 before requesting a homing.
The "A" and "N" are carry overs from LF navigation and was dropped for "Four Beam" or "Four Course" navigation systems. ADF used the loop which is what pilots were using in the early stages of the war (the loop does not turn the entire plane does). The late war navigation method was an early form of VOR that used VHF frequencies (but no "A" or "N") and an ADF antenna (though not necessarily a loop) with a backup LF receiver (Detrola in most cases for American aircraft). In 1943 real VOR systems were available (designed at least) but not ready for public use due to most systems going to the military and there were already ILS systems also.
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Ask that 190a3 guy that landed ,after doing a victory roll , on an English airfield .
<insert "the most embarrassing moment of my life" here>
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From what I have read the weather on eastern front was notorious for changing bad very quickly so the pilots had to land to what ever flat space they found and sometimes even in totally blind conditions miraculously avoiding obstacles. Of course those who were not that luck did not live to tell about their mishap.
I think it was a custom to teach the new pilots on area a few easily recognizable terrain formations to help them establish their whereabouts incase they got lost during mission or if damage prevented from using compass.
-C+
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so when they navigated to waypoints did they fly on eta to each point? or use the map to spot local landmarks to see when they reached the waypoint?
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Pretty much yes. If they could not maintain a visual on ground features and the wind at altitude was great enough they could easily get blown miles off course and have a difficult time finding their way home.
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The same way Amelia Earhart did. :airplane:
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The same way Amelia Earhart did. :airplane:
Ask Fred?
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There are two methods of navigation used in the absence of radio navigation aids.
Dead Reckoning and Pilotage.
The two are used together whenever possible.
Dead Reckoning is essentially keeping track of your estimated position mathematically. You are flying known courses at known (hopefully) ground speed. Dead reckoning requires good planning to be reasonably accurate as there are many factors that reduce its accuracy. A few are compass errors, magnetic variation, winds aloft. Simple things can get you in trouble with dead reckoning. You plot your course on the map as a true course (referenced to true north). In order to follow that true course you have to correct for magnetic variation and compass deviation as well as calculate the required wind correction angle. A math error in the planning and you can easily be completely lost.
Pilotage is navigation by reference to visual landmarks.
In good weather over land the two methods are used together. One backs up the other. In poor weather or over water all you have is dead reckoning.
Reckon correctly or you are dead as the joke goes.
In reality even in poor weather or over water there are visual clues as to your location. Cloud formation differ over land in the open ocean etc etc. That is where experience comes in.
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Don't forget the trusty old sextant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation#Celestial_navigation_trainer
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Could always try this one:
Sunstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland_spar)
:D