Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: WMLute on May 27, 2010, 04:26:25 PM
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I drive an older Honda that I just can't bring myself to get rid of. 130k miles on it and it drives exactly like it did when I bought it.
Anyhoo I needed to charge my AC and was told, by my local Honda dealer, that I should convert it from R12 to R134. There was only @ $20-30 bucks diff between converting and charging it w/ the old so I went ahead and did the conversion on their advice.
This was 2-3 weeks ago.
We had a cold snap right when I did the conversion so I have not really used the AC at all since the conversion. (maybe had it on 1 min tops) Today I turned on my AC for the first time for any length, drove a bit and heard a huge hissing sound. Pulled over and there was a puddle of mess all over the engine compartment near the AC.
Took it to the dealer and they are wanting to charge me $80 bucks to diagnose it, and then whatever it costs to fix whatever the problem is.
(we suspect a seal, or o-ring, or some such thing blew out)
I'm kinda ticked about the whole thing and think they are out of line to charge me to diagnose it at all.
It seems, to me, too much of a coincidence that the first time I use the AC after they worked on it the thing blows up. Something is not right. Looking at the manual that system uses less than a lbs and 1/2 of coolant and I almost suspect they overcharged it thus causing it to blow out. (but I have no knowledge about this stuff and that is only conjecture)
Of course it COULD be that I have an older car and "stuff" just wears out on it, but I am still finding the timing of it all very suspect.
I personally think they should diagnose it, fix it, and not charge me labor but I will pay for the parts. Odds are they did "something" that caused this to fail and I don't think I should pay for their mistake.
I think that is reasonable.
Opinions?
What should I expect them to do here?
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I did not think you could just change the older type of aircon to the new stuff, I thought the whole system had to be changed, which could be the reason why it has deteriorated the seals..but I maybe wrong..as I don't normally work with aircon
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I did not think you could just change the older type of aircon to the new stuff, I thought the whole system had to be changed, which could be the reason why it has deteriorated the seals..but I maybe wrong..as I don't normally work with aircon
It was a Honda factory conversion kit that was used. (they had to order it)
I am wondering, now that I am googlin' like mad about this, if they did the conversion the right way or not.
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I personally think they should diagnose it, fix it, and not charge me labor but I will pay for the parts. Odds are they did "something" that caused this to fail and I don't think I should pay for their mistake.
2-3 weeks ago? screw that, they fix it all FOC. or you get someone else to fix it and the dealer can pay for that, plus legal costs. hopefully the dealer is smart enough to know which option is cheaper for them.
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2-3 weeks ago? screw that, they fix it all FOC. or you get someone else to fix it and the dealer can pay for that, plus legal costs. hopefully the dealer is smart enough to know which option is cheaper for them.
What he said. No reason for you to pay for anything when they installed it.
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Take it one step at a time.
1. Ask them to diagnose it and if it is a unrelated issues you will pay for the diagnosis. what you want here is a normal response OK that sounds great, anything else and ask for the manager.
2. It is my guess that if it is an entirely new system and self contained that they must warranty it.
3. Alls states have implied merchantability laws where they have to offer you some kind of warranty.
4. Be carefull about having anyone else do any work on the system before you give them " reasonable opportunity" to make it right. Or it will void your warranty and you will have no legal options. Ask them to put all responses in writing, with what there reasoning is for charging you to diagnosis it. Oh and put your request in writing to them telling them this is there notice for reasonable opportunity to make it right.
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You can convert an R-12 system to R-134. They sell kits at the local parts store for around $20. It has new o-rings and a tube of ester to coat the inside of the hoses. R-134 has smaller molecules and can seep thru older hoses and o-rings. I converted a couple old pickups I used to have and both worked fine, just not quite as good as they did on R-12.
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Sonicblu hit it, find out what the issue is first. Tell them to stop there. From that point decide best course of action. In the end, dealer should be looking at it for very reduced fee or free. Let us know, many here to help with such issues.
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(UPDATE)
After talking w/ the Service Manager they diagnosed it for free and this is what they said happened.
The High Pressure Switch failed and caused the Emergency Release Valve to pop off.
This is what they are telling me.
To fix it, replacing the switch, emerg. valve, and recharging the system will run me @ $200.00.
I shopped that price at other garages and it is $100-150 cheaper than everybody else.
Here is where it gets "fun". They said that the actual "cause" could be something else like the fan for the AC not working. The only way to figure THAT out is to repair the valve/switch, charge it up, and then figure it out.
Hopefully it was just a faulty switch.
Dunno. I thought that sounded "fair" so I told 'em to go for it. They gota order a part and it'll be Tue. before they can fix it so I got me a HOT car for this holiday weekend.
Does this sound "right" to everybody? I really don't think they are trying to bang me for $ as I priced the parts at a diff. honda dealer and they were inline w/ the quote I was given. I was told it would be 1 1/2 hours labor (sounds @ right) and $30.00 for the R-134 to recharge it so that breaks down to...
$100.00 parts
$30.00 recharge
$70.00 labor.
ish.
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The fan not running would cause the pressure to rise to the point of hitting the high limit. R-12 and R134a run at almost identical operating pressures, so the change in freon, if done properly, shouldn't have caused anything to be much different.
I wonder it the safety switch was not reinstalled or wired back in after the swap was done. I worry that the A/C was not tested properly after the freon exchange was performed. Normal run time to test the A/C would be 10 min at least to give the system time to balance, check the temp of the air and take a gander at the gauges to assure proper pressures. By this time, someone should have noticed if the fan had turned on or not!!!
$200.00 is a fair price for the work needed, but I would test the A/C fully before leaving their lot this time.
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(update #2)
Ok, THIS is what I am now being told.
The only thing they know for sure is that the emergency release valve on the compressor blew.
The high pressure sensor is just a "guess" and they don't know if it is bad or not. It is possible that it is "fine" and the emerg. release valve was bad. They are telling me to replace it anyway as "insurance" because if it IS bad then if they don't replace it the emerg. release valve will blow again and I will have to pay for another one.
Here is my concern. The engine and the AC had been running for @ 1 minute when this happened. I pulled out of my house and was 1/2 mile down the road when the emerg. release valve blew.
They are telling me that is enough time for the compressor to over pressurize. Does that sound "right"?
The Honda tech said he really doesn't think it is the fan, and it is a good idea to replace the high pressure switch "just in case" and I kinda agree w/ 'em there.
It is really, really "odd" to me that they convert my AC and then this happens 3 weeks later. Something they did is the cause here (I suspect) but I have no way to prove it so I guess I am just out $200.00 more bucks and possible more.
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On that note, it sounds more like some kind of blockage in the system. That may have taken care of itself when the valve blew, but if not, then it will happen again as soon as it's repaired.
Tough call.
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WM, here's my take on what's going on. First let me state that I am an ASE Certified Master Technician with over 15 years experience (including automotive HVAC systems).
First off, R134a (the new stuff) does not run the same pressures as R12 (the old stuff). Since R134a is not as effective, it must run at higher pressures with more cooling at the condenser to achieve the same results.
Secondly, you need LESS OF A CHARGE with R134a than you did with R12. If your system required 1.5lbs of R12, then after a conversion it should require about 1.1 to 1.2lbs of R134a.
Thirdly, the A/C compressor is capable of achieving a very high pressure ALMOST INSTANTLY. Half a block of driving with the A/C is more than enough to over-pressurize the system... ESPECIALLY IN VERY HOT TEMPERATURES AND ESPECIALLY WITH A MALFUNCTIONING CONDENSER COOLING FAN.
Now let me educate you a bit about the pressure relief valve. In the old days, cars' A/C systems used a mechanic 'blow-off' valve... this way if the pressure got too high for whatever reason, the valve would 'blow' to release the freon to keep the compressor, evaporator, lines, or condenser from literally 'blowing up'. When the EPA deemed R12 freon to be 'bad for the environment' and 'illegal to manufacture in the US past 1994' they also required that all new automotive A/C systems and all old A/C systems retro-fitted to R134a to have an electrical high pressure switch. This switch simply turns off the A/C compressor if the pressure gets too high, therefore eliminating the need for a mechanic blow-off valve.
Considering your system obviously had a 'blow off' valve, it may or may not have had an electrical high-pressure cutoff switch. Most high-dollar retrofit kits (like the ones the dealers special order) usually come with this electrical switch, and it is usually installed on to the original system (leaving the original blow-off valve intact as well) but this switch is usually calibrated to shut off the compressor long before the blow off valve would go off. The fact that your blow off valve DID go off tells me that there's a high chance that either this switch was not installed (as required).. or this switch was not wired in electrically.. or they used a switch that was incorrectly calibrated. If you did have an electrical cut off switch before, most likely it was calibrated for R12. Either way, it should have been verified to be functioning correctly before they released the car to you.
Likewise, if you had a malfunctioning condenser cooling fan, this should ALSO have been discovered before they released the car to you. I should also note that a lot of the high-dollar retrofit kids INCLUDE a larger condenser fan (or a higher volume fan), but this varies depending on the year, make, and model of the vehicle to be retrofitted. You need to find out exactly what was replaced during the retrofit service.
It's also possible that your blow-off valve simply failed due to age and that your A/C pressures never got high enough to cause a normally functioning blow-off valve to set, but since yours was bad it did. This is also a possibility as since the temperature was cooler when they performed the retrofit, then the pressures would be lower as well and the malfunctioning blow off valve would not have been a problem at that time. In this case it would be really hard to blame the repair shop (dealership) for this having happened... BUT if it were my shop and this all happened right after we performed those kinds of repairs to your vehicle, I would NOT HESITATE to fix this for you FOR FREE, regardless if I felt if was our fault or not... that is simple customer courtesy right there.
As for this being 'odd' or not.. I have to tell you from experience that these sorts of things happen more often than you would think, and the vast majority of the time it's really nobody's fault. Like I said, the temperatures were cooler when they retrofitted it, and also you had a (for the most part) malfunctioning system in the first place. They simply got the system up and running for you... but without it being a very warm day it's really hard to test the system to its limit. It's kind of like shooting the hull of a tank with one round from a handgun, and claiming it's strong enough to endure battlefield damage...
Regardless, I sure hope they work something out with you... maybe at least charge you for only the cost of parts.. that way they don't lose money and everyone is happy, but dealerships tend to be a bit 'less forgiving' when it comes to that sort of thing.
I will add this.. the $20 retrofit kits you get from Autozone and the like come with only a small can of refrigerant, a charging hose, and a couple of universal fittings. While this can be installed on many cars to get acceptable results, installing this kit alone on most R12 systems is probably not legal. It is up to the consumer that the appropriate parts are purchased (and properly installed) in order to have an EPA legal automotive HVAC system. Not trying to be a party-pooper here... I'm just trying to educate you guys who may or may not know better.
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I used the Honda part for the conversion and I can only trust that they guys @ the dealership did it all the right way.
The parts they are replacing is the high pressure switch AND the emerg. release valve so I guess even converted it has both.
I found a Honda Service Bulletin from when they originally started doing conversions and the part # they billed me for matches what is on the Service Bulletin to convert my model Honda to R-134 so they used what Honda recommends.
I noticed on the bulletin that they do indeed have to put in less R-134 and I can only hope they put in the proper amount. I asked about this and they said that overcharging the system would just make the compressor not run and would not cause this.
They are being pretty good about it all and what they are charging me for this is much lower than the 3 other Honda dealers in my area would. (I called and checked and they were all @ $350)
It could very well be age that caused this and that is why I am not jumping up/down insisting they fix it for free. Lets face it, this is an older car and things wear out over time. (I will add that this car has been perfectly maintained and this is the first time I have had to put a dime into it other than scheduled maint. and one muffler)
They did (supposedly) a full diagnosis of the AC system when they converted it. At least, according to my bill I PAYED for one. I am gonna be TICKED if the fan is broken and they didn't catch that 3 weeks ago when they converted it. They told me the system checked out perfect before they did the conversion.
They guy who did the work is one of their most senior techs and per. the Service Manager is one of their best guys. (not that they would tell me he sucked)
I appreciate the advice and I hope it turns out to just be a bad release valve.
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Probably a little too late now but...http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/second-opinion/
Click and Clack :banana:
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(Update)
Honda dealer replaced the High Pressure switch and the Emergency Release valve on the compressor, the AC fan is working fine, and are now saying that "something" is causing pressure to build in the system and I probably have a "blockage" in the system somewhere.
They further said there is no way to figure out where the blockage is and will have to tear apart my AC piece by piece looking for it.
If there is a blockage, wouldn't it stand to reason that THEY caused the blockage when they converted my AC 3 weeks ago?
Man... I wonder how much this is gonna cost me now...
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This is what they are telling me.
Pfft.
The only people who spew more bulltoejam than car salesmen are dealership service managers.
If you *must* go to a stealership, go straight to a tech and bypass these morons. Not only do they have zero clue about... well... anything; but they are only interested in getting you back out the door if they cant con you into paying bogus bills.
Last weekend, my 15-year old wheel lock key finally gave out and I was told by the dealership that - get this - they don't have the master set because they don't service cars that old.
When I finally was able to sneak around into the service bay and talk to the mechanics; I learned that they did, in fact, have the master set but I had to schedule an appointment (for a 15 foot walk and 20 seconds per wheel?). Awesome customer service. Seriously - a smoke break would have taken longer. I just need A key to go into B lock and swap for C standard lugs. Appointment...
Went to AutoZone, bought a cheap socket and ground my own damned Jerry-rigged key.
F dealerships.
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(update)
I am seriously considering walking away at this point.
They are now using a National Honda Tech. Line to advise them on my car. It concerns me that they are needing to do this.
What they have done is took an infrared sensor and checked my AC at IDLE and at 2,000 RPM and did temp. readings at various points of the AC system. They then submitted that info to this tech line and are waiting to hear back.
Apparently if there is a blockage those readings will tell them where it is at.
I don't have the slightest clue what is going on but one would think that THREE DAYS is enough time to diagnose and fix my friggin' AC.
I am debating picking up the car, telling them to stuff it, and going elsewhere.
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Hi Lute,
You took the car in and requested a recharge of the existing system, something that can still be done.
They recommended an alternative.
It failed.
Tell them to put the old system back the way it was before you went with their recommendation.
They will say it is not possible, you will say that is not your problem. All you wanted was a recharge, you took their recommended action and it failed. Then walk away, go find the top dog of the dealership and say you want to look at a replacement vehicle for the one his service department broke and see how fast you get your A/C fixed.
Might not work, but fun as hell.
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Loved my old Acura and Honda. Had my Honda overheat all over a 2 dollar hose once! :rolleyes: Only problem with the AC for me was coolant.
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Hi Lute,
You took the car in and requested a recharge of the existing system, something that can still be done.
They recommended an alternative.
It failed.
Tell them to put the old system back the way it was before you went with their recommendation.
They will say it is not possible, you will say that is not your problem. All you wanted was a recharge, you took their recommended action and it failed. Then walk away, go find the top dog of the dealership and say you want to look at a replacement vehicle for the one his service department broke and see how fast you get your A/C fixed.
Might not work, but fun as hell.
THIS
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Tell them you want to talk to the head of the dealership,and no one else..explain it to him..then tell him..THE ONLY thing they have to offer you is SERVICE,You can go anywhere and buy a car,there are other honda dealerships around..And if they cant fix it right,you WILL go somewhere else when you buy your next one..
Talk to DCCBOSS he owns his own mechanic biz..
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Don't mess with any middle men. After watching my ex wife on issues like this she would send a certified letter with return receipt to the head guy of the corporation spelling out the problem. Every time problem was fixed pronto.
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(update)
Ok, they are saying it has a blockage somewhere. They did infrared sensor readings, sent them back to the Natn. Honda tech people who are NOW wanting further tests done on the Compressor and on the Condenser.
They gave me the car back, I have not paid them anything except for the original conversion, and we have put off working on it until Mon/Tue.
I took it to another shop that hooked it up and looked at the pressure in the system.
At idle it is...
High pressure 115 psi
Low pressure 60 psi
When you throttle up the engine the low pressure drops and the high pressure raises.
(significant both)
I might add that the compressor is NOT cycling during this and that the AC Fan is working fine.
THAT guy said that, to him and with those psi readings, either the Compressor is going bad OR the dryer is clogged. Normally when the compressor is bad both high/low are the same readings. He told me my high wasn't high enough and my low not low enough. So in his opinion it is indeed a blockage somewhere, and he thinks the dryer, or that compressor is starting to fail.
I guess it all boils down to what caused the blockage. If when they originally converted it, vac. out the AC lines caused some debris to dislodge and cause the blockage, would that be THEIR fault or just an "act of God". Was their something they failed to do properly that I can trace directly back to them or is this just something that "happens" and I need to either pony up a ton more $ or not have AC this summer.
All in all this has been quite frustrating.
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It looks like a bad compressor to me. 115 psi at idle is EXTREMELY low. If there was a blockage somewhere, the high pressure side would spike (300+PSI) until it triggered the high pressure switch to cut it off... then the pressures should stabilize and then the process repeats. Normal pressures on a 85-90 degree day for R134a is about 210PSI/35PSI at idle.. but this varies depending on the car and humidity and cabin temperature.. etc. The general rule is that as the high side goes up, the low side goes down. Since your high is low and your low is high, this tells me the compressor isn't doing its job.
I'd be willing to bet that the compressor is coming apart, and pieces of metal shavings etc. have the dryer all clogged up, and possibly the expansion valve as well. The best course of action at this point would be to replace the compressor and dryer, and to flush the entire system. You might want to consider replacing the expansion valve as well as it cannot be flushed. It gets especially pricey at this point.
It's possible the compressor was already on its last legs and the conversion process was just enough to 'tip the scales'... as part of the conversion includes replacing the oil with a thinner type. Kind of like with an old, worn engine... putting thin oil (which would have been just fine when it was new) might cause it to have problems.
The reason for this is since the new refrigerant has smaller molecules, the old mineral oil is too heavy for it to circulate along with the refrigerant in the system. The new replacement 'PAG' oil is light enough to be carried, but doesn't play well with some compressors, especially old, worn ones.
As far as the dealership... if you can't get them to repair this for free, at least see if they'll credit all of the money you've spent with this thus far towards the final repair bill.
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(update)
Ok, they are saying it has a blockage somewhere. They did infrared sensor readings, sent them back to the Natn. Honda tech people who are NOW wanting further tests done on the Compressor and on the Condenser.
They gave me the car back, I have not paid them anything except for the original conversion, and we have put off working on it until Mon/Tue.
I took it to another shop that hooked it up and looked at the pressure in the system.
At idle it is...
High pressure 115 psi
Low pressure 60 psi
When you throttle up the engine the low pressure drops and the high pressure raises.
(significant both)
I might add that the compressor is NOT cycling during this and that the AC Fan is working fine.
THAT guy said that, to him and with those psi readings, either the Compressor is going bad OR the dryer is clogged. Normally when the compressor is bad both high/low are the same readings. He told me my high wasn't high enough and my low not low enough. So in his opinion it is indeed a blockage somewhere, and he thinks the dryer, or that compressor is starting to fail.
I guess it all boils down to what caused the blockage. If when they originally converted it, vac. out the AC lines caused some debris to dislodge and cause the blockage, would that be THEIR fault or just an "act of God". Was their something they failed to do properly that I can trace directly back to them or is this just something that "happens" and I need to either pony up a ton more $ or not have AC this summer.
All in all this has been quite frustrating.
man i'm waaay late on this one.
depending on temp, and humidity, your pressures should be(at idle) around 30-40 psi on the low side, and anywhere from 150 to 250 psi on the high side. the 250 reading would be on an extremely hot/humid day.
the readings above show a restriction, probably the oriface tube or expansion valve...whichever your system uses. 60 is WAY too high on the low side, and 115 is WAY too low.
the high pressure blow off valves generally will not blow out till the pressure is over 300 psi.
as for blockage, there's generally 2 common areas, depending on how this system is set up.
1) if you have an expansion valve, find it, and tap it with a small hammer. if it brings pressures into range, then you have a bad expansion valve.
2) if you have an orifice tube, just take it out and put a new one in. they have filter screens built into them, and sometimes as they age, they will clog, causing a restriction.
you stated that you were driving when it blew. forget the fan. if you were moving, then you had air going through the condenser, and the fan is a non-issue at that point. even if it were sitting still, and the fan not running with the a/c, you'll still not generally get enough pressure to blow the blowoff valve.
someone else mentioned about converting........the conversion is crazy simply, and more than likely you could've done it yourself. it requires nothing more than placing the proper fittings on the lines for the r-134a, and installing ester oil, as the mineral oil that's used with r-12 will not be carried throughout the system. sometimes, if it's an older system, you'll want to replace the accumulator too.
hope some of this helped.
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It looks like a bad compressor to me. 115 psi at idle is EXTREMELY low. If there was a blockage somewhere, the high pressure side would spike (300+PSI) until it triggered the high pressure switch to cut it off... then the pressures should stabilize and then the process repeats. Normal pressures on a 85-90 degree day for R134a is about 210PSI/35PSI at idle.. but this varies depending on the car and humidity and cabin temperature.. etc. The general rule is that as the high side goes up, the low side goes down. Since your high is low and your low is high, this tells me the compressor isn't doing its job.
I'd be willing to bet that the compressor is coming apart, and pieces of metal shavings etc. have the dryer all clogged up, and possibly the expansion valve as well. The best course of action at this point would be to replace the compressor and dryer, and to flush the entire system. You might want to consider replacing the expansion valve as well as it cannot be flushed. It gets especially pricey at this point.
It's possible the compressor was already on its last legs and the conversion process was just enough to 'tip the scales'... as part of the conversion includes replacing the oil with a thinner type. Kind of like with an old, worn engine... putting thin oil (which would have been just fine when it was new) might cause it to have problems.
The reason for this is since the new refrigerant has smaller molecules, the old mineral oil is too heavy for it to circulate along with the refrigerant in the system. The new replacement 'PAG' oil is light enough to be carried, but doesn't play well with some compressors, especially old, worn ones.
As far as the dealership... if you can't get them to repair this for free, at least see if they'll credit all of the money you've spent with this thus far towards the final repair bill.
i'd think something besides a bad compressor, only because of the 60psi on the low side.
i apologize for bumping this....haven't been in here lately............
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Quick question.
If there is a blockage, would that account for the odd High/Low pressure readings?
It is a Honda so it has an Expansion valve but according to the Service Mgr it is in the Dash? Does that sound right? Would love to try the tapping w/ the hammer bit.
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Quick question.
If there is a blockage, would that account for the odd High/Low pressure readings?
It is a Honda so it has an Expansion valve but according to the Service Mgr it is in the Dash? Does that sound right? Would love to try the tapping w/ the hammer bit.
yes, that does make sense.
what could be happening, is that the compressor is doing its job, sending the r134 through the system, but it's encountering a blockage, causing this reading. yet some still gets through, causing the very low reading on the high side.
i don't recall you saying what year the honda was? some of them did have the expansion valve mounted just at the evaporator core, behind/below the dash. it should be on the passenger side, and i think it's a fairly easy matter to remove the glove box, and the lower dash trim to get at that.
also, one other thing i forgot......if the dealer hasn't found it yet.....take it to a good reputable local "mom and pop" repair shop. they'll scare you with how good they are.
if you want to post the year and model, i'll look it up on alldata for ya, and get you some information on the system.