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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Brooke on May 30, 2010, 12:17:25 AM

Title: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Brooke on May 30, 2010, 12:17:25 AM
For special events, what do you consider the most-even matchups of the different countries' tanks?

For example, Tiger vs. Sherman VC is at least a somewhat reasonable matchup.

For Panzer vs. T-34, I'm assuming that the T-34/76 is more even than the T-34/85 to the Panzer.

For Panzer vs. M4A3, which is more even, the M4A3(75) or the M4A3(76W)?

What about for T-34's vs. the M4A3's?
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: E25280 on May 30, 2010, 12:44:48 AM
I would put it like this:

T-34/76 = Sherman 75 < PzkwIV < T-34/85 = Sherman 76 < Firefly < Tiger.

Although in relative terms, the PzkwIV's gun makes it able to compete fairly well against the T-34/85 and Sherman 76.  In that scale, I personally think the T-34/85 is a closer match up than the 76 because of the gun.

And as we all know, any tank can kill any other in the right circumstances, so if you wanted to do a Kursk-like scenario of Tigers vs. T-34/76s, you could balance it simply by giving the lesser vehicle superior numbers.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Karnak on May 30, 2010, 12:31:52 PM
The two most even fights we have in the game are T-34/76 vs M4A3(75) and T-34/85 vs M4A3(76), but those aren't useful for WWII scenarios.

In either M4A3(75) vs Panzer IV H or T-34/76 vs Panzer IV H the Panzer completely dominates the fight. Going to the M4A3(76) vs Panzer IV H or the T-34/85 vs Panzer IV H just reverses that and the Panzer IV H is now dominated by the American and Soviet tanks.

I guess Sherman VC vs Tiger I is balanced at close range due to the fact that any hit on either penetrates nearly every hit.  At long range the Tiger is superior though.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on May 30, 2010, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: Karnak on May 30, 2010, 12:31:52 PM
In either M4A3(75) vs Panzer IV H or T-34/76 vs Panzer IV H the Panzer completely dominates the fight. Going to the M4A3(76) vs Panzer IV H or the T-34/85 vs Panzer IV H just reverses that and the Panzer IV H is now dominated by the American and Soviet tanks.

Right now, my best bet would be on balancing a scenario by mixing tanks in a resonable way.

For example western Allies vs Germany.

the (76) dominates Panzers. So throw in a few (really few) Tigers to compensate, but don't add any Fireflies.
Because the VC and Tigers would basically cancel out each other, so it's just back at the (76w) vs Panzer IV equation.

Of course one could argue about the exact numbers necessary. How about (for example) 30 Sherman (76)w vs 25 Panzer IV and 5 Tiger I?
Similar for the eastern front: 30 T-34/85 vs 25 Panzer IV and 5 Tiger I

In both scenarios, each side would have to use teamwork & coordination to overcome the opposition.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on May 30, 2010, 03:08:19 PM
T-34/76 and  (maybe) M4A3(75) v.s. Panzer

Tiger vs Sherman firefly and T-34/85

M4A3(76) vs T-34/85


The only tanks the M4A3(75) has any chance against in a head on engagment is a panzer or another M4A3(75). both T-34's have no possible frontal shots, and neither does the tiger.

The M4A3(76) and T-34/85 are pretty evenly matched, the 85mm looses its punch pretty fast, and up close, the 76 can kill the T-34/85.

Karnack has it close, but not quite right. On the panzer, the M4's 75 tends to give a lot of turreting shots at long range, and gives a lot of kills out to 1600yds. And the T-34/76 over the M4A3(75) because of its speed, turret traverse speed, and HVAP rounds.

The same goes to the T-34/85 up close, the turret travers and HVAP rounds will give it an edge, but less than the T-34/76's since the M1 AT gun can penetrate the T-34/85's armor up close.

I spend a lot of time in GV's, and have even tested them with friends in the DA. Those seem about the most even match ups you are going to get untill they add more tanks.

Hope that helps sir <S>,
                                 Nemisis
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on May 30, 2010, 03:26:40 PM
Quote from: Nemisis on May 30, 2010, 03:08:19 PM
The only tanks the M4A3(75) has any chance against in a head on engagment is a panzer or another M4A3(75). both T-34's have no possible frontal shots, and neither does the tiger

Haven'ttested longer ranges yet, but at 500yds the (75) can blow up the T34/76 with a a single hit.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on May 30, 2010, 03:40:19 PM
Unless the offline practice doesn't get updated, the T-34's armor just gives ricochets except at the base of the hull (bottom of the slope), at point blank range, and to the turret with zero deflection.

I had forgotten about that, but I still don't feel that its a fair fight.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Easyscor on May 30, 2010, 04:10:09 PM
In the OP, it was about our SEA events, and implied the set would be Axis vs Allied tanks, divided into Western and Eastern fronts.

From the posts so far, I’m getting these lineups for AHv2.19p4:
--------------------------------------------------
German | vs | Western ..| Eastern
Panzer .| vs | M4(75/76) | T34/76
Tiger ....| vs | Firefly   .....| none
--------------------------------------------------
Is this right?

In our goal to achieve balance, I’m wondering if limiting the loadouts would have any effect, for example, deny HVAP. Would something similar allow for balanced match-ups with equal numbers of tanks on each side, and if so, what loadouts accomplish this? Particularly for the Eastern front.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on May 30, 2010, 04:20:30 PM
After some thinking, I can only reinforce my point: Do not look too desperate for a fair 1v1 equivalent. Use different tanks with adjusted numbers to get an overall fair & balanced mix.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Easyscor on May 30, 2010, 04:31:46 PM
Quote from: Lusche on May 30, 2010, 04:20:30 PM
After some thinking, I can only reinforce my point: Do not look too desperate for a fair 1v1 equivalent. Use different tanks with adjusted numbers to get an overall fair & balanced mix.
.
The CMs always do that, but with all the changes recently, it's best to get new input on the current situation with GVs. It's very hard to quantify those balancing numbers without knowing relative power of the tanks in the current version of the game.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on May 30, 2010, 05:50:33 PM
Easyscor, the T-34/85 will give a fair fight for the tiger depending on the map (some maps just breed close quarters fights, IDK why. They just do).

Aside from that, your list was accurate. Perhaps have a ratio of 2-1 for the M4A3(75)  and M4A3(76) respectively? The M4(76) is slightly superior to the panzer, while the M4(75) is slightly inferior. This is assuming 50/50 numbers.

But one thing you need to remember when you're using GV's in the special events: better tanks only go so far towards making up for a lack of numbers. Even if you have Tigers against T-34/76's, the tigers will be swamped.

In the last HMS Blitzkrieg, the final frame was 3 tigers against 8 T-34/76's. We held the town for 7mins or so, and killed only 5 T-34's (we were holed up in the TT on the Nisles map, and 2 of us were turreted in the first 3 mins).
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: BaldEagl on May 30, 2010, 10:20:18 PM
Your Eastern front would have to be the Tiger vs T-34/85 hoping that proper tactical use of the T-34's speed would compensate against the slow traverse rate of the Tiger's turret.

It will be a very challenging proposition for the T-34's if the numbers are equal but, depending on the map and situation could be accomplished.  Even a small bump in numbers in favor of the T-34 would help a lot and it wouldn't take that large a numbers advantage to even things out.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Easyscor on June 01, 2010, 01:26:37 PM
I think we're getting some agreement.

From the posts so far, I’m getting these lineups for AHv2.19p4:

--------------------------------------------------
German | vs | Western ....| Eastern
Panzer .| vs | M4(75/76*) | T34/76
Tiger ....| vs | Firefly   .......| T34/85**
---------.-----------------------------------------

* Using the M4 75s and 76s in a 2 to 1 ratio vs the Panzer
** Using a slight numbers advantage for the T34/85 over the Tiger

Anyone else care to comment, or offer clarifications?

Thanks to all who contributed their input.  :salute
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 01, 2010, 01:31:35 PM
Quote from: Easyscor on June 01, 2010, 01:26:37 PM

--------------------------------------------------
German | vs | Western ....| Eastern
Panzer .| vs | M4(75/76*) | T34/76
Tiger ....| vs | Firefly   .......| T34/85**
---------.-----------------------------------------

* Using the M4 75s and 76s in a 2 to 1 ratio vs the Panzer

The M4 75 and 76 are quite different beasts when compared to the Panzer. The 75 is a much weaker gun, put the (75) at 1-1 to the panzer.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Easyscor on June 01, 2010, 01:42:26 PM
Are you saying that the M4/76 is too much vs the Panzer?

You can tell I'm not a GV guy, but I do listen to you guys.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 01, 2010, 01:44:46 PM
Quote from: Easyscor on June 01, 2010, 01:42:26 PM
Are you saying that the M4/76 is too much vs the Panzer?

You can tell I'm not a GV guy, but I do listen to you guys.

At this point, the 76's penetration seems to be slightly superior compared to the Panzer IV's gun, but the ROF is 50% higher... that's a very distinct advantage

In tour124, the Panzer had a K/D of 1.85 vs the (75), but only 0.52 vs the (76)

Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: BaDkaRmA158Th on June 01, 2010, 04:35:23 PM
Anything that can sit under 1k 6:00 behind the enemy spawn, and pop turrets in one hit.  :rock :devil

Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 01, 2010, 06:49:04 PM
The panzer CAN beat the M4(76), but its not a 50/50 chance.

M4 has faster turret traverse, slightly superior gun, 50% higher ROF, and better armor. The M4(76) won't always beat the panzer, but it will 75% of the time.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: 715 on June 02, 2010, 01:37:39 PM
Quote from: Easyscor on June 01, 2010, 01:26:37 PM
I think we're getting some agreement.

From the posts so far, I’m getting these lineups for AHv2.19p4:

--------------------------------------------------
German | vs | Western ....| Eastern
Panzer .| vs | M4(75/76*) | T34/76
Tiger ....| vs | Firefly   .......| T34/85**
---------.-----------------------------------------

* Using the M4 75s and 76s in a 2 to 1 ratio vs the Panzer
** Using a slight numbers advantage for the T34/85 over the Tiger

Anyone else care to comment, or offer clarifications?

Thanks to all who contributed their input.  :salute

I did some offline testing.  At 1400 yds the T34/85 cannot penetrate the Tiger frontal armor with either AP or HVAP even hitting the proverbial (yet probably apocryphal) soft spots of the drivers window or the turret ring.  At 1200 yds the AP still cannot penetrate.  The HVAP can just barely penetrate, if you hit certain areas, but they will not kill the Tiger even with multiple hits.  Of course the Tiger can vaporize the T34/85 with one shot at much, much longer ranges.

I don't really know what constitutes fair in a scenario, but I do know I would not want to be part of that match up.  Even with the return of the little berms, AH is a wide open uncluttered environment and the Tigers could just stand off at distance and kill the T34/85s with impunity (especially their weak turrets).
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Rino on June 02, 2010, 03:27:01 PM
     I'm thinking the most even matchup would be the guy driving the same tank as you,
but for another country  :D
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: CDR1 on June 02, 2010, 03:41:28 PM
try t34/76 in early war, you can shoot each other for hours, first one to get sick of the shooting and towers is hte loser.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 02, 2010, 04:11:18 PM
715, you couldn't be more wrong. There are the impassible thickets of trees, the hemp bushes that flip 50 ton tigers, and the hedge rows, all in addition to the burms. This makes for very close quarters fights. I rarely have to engage anything out past 1200yds, and 800-1000 is normal.

Yesterday, I ambushed two tigers that passed within 200yds of me.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: 715 on June 02, 2010, 05:05:00 PM
True, if you are lying in ambush there are places to hid and hope the enemy passes by (the terrains don't really have many true choke points).  But if you are advancing, as a scenario would require, the thickets, berms, and hedges are sparse enough that you will always have to transit open territory.  Then: boom.  I can easily hit tanks that are moving at ranges up to and beyond 3K and they can certainly hit me from those ranges while I'm maneuvering.

In the MA are virtually all of your kills really closer than 1200?  The majority of my kills are beyond 1200 (not counting suicidal M3s).
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 02, 2010, 05:21:18 PM
One side will always be advancing 715, AlWAYS. Two sides probably won't be advancing at the same time on the same spot. Getting in on eachothers flanks, yes, but not on the same line of advance. PANZERS would have an advantage over the T-34/85 if they were playing defense, its just the nature of the game.

And yes, either my sights are screwed up, or most of my engagments are at under 1200 yds. That either says I'm extremely lucky, or that I make better use of terrain and am able to advance to extreme close range much better than you are.

I'm not saying that I don't have a good number of engagments at long(ish) range, just that the numer of long range engagments is relativly low. Take those two tigers in my earlier post: We were both advancing, I ducked behind a burm and was able to kill an M4A3(76)W without being spotted, drive up behind those two tigers, and kill both of them without being seen. I then killed a firefly at 1600yds before a T-34/85 I didn't see killed me.

GV'ing comes down to 3 things IMO.

Use of cover and concelment: Hitting him from the rear at 500yds takes his gun out of the equation.
Gunnery: the penetration qualities of your gun matter VERY little of you can't aim it.
Use of terrain and movment: Fight from the high ground, and move in on the enemy's flanks and rear.

In order of importance of course.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 02, 2010, 05:26:32 PM
Quote from: Nemisis on June 02, 2010, 05:21:18 PM
And yes, either my sights are screwed up, or most of my engagments are at under 1200 yds.

Do you have your head position adjusted & moved forward?
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 02, 2010, 05:28:12 PM
On the Panzer, T-34s, and the Tiger, but not the M4: the help you get from such a small enlargment of the sights is offset by the fact that the ranges are no longer accurate.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 02, 2010, 05:33:01 PM
Quote from: Nemisis on June 02, 2010, 05:28:12 PM
On the Panzer, T-34s, and the Tiger,

Just asking, because with those tanks, you have to double the indicated range number to get "true" range, if you have done so.

Speaking subjectively for myself, most of my GV kills are well beyond 1200, mostly in the 1600 to 3000 range - but I'm generally a defensive player.

800 and less is definitely "panic" range ;)
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 02, 2010, 05:37:25 PM
In your oppinon. I've known guys that won't open up and give away their possiton untill a tank is at under 200yds.


I'm a good long range gunner, just that most of my engagments are, by luck, at short range. When using the panzer, I don't usually have to use more than the "4" range mark. Perhaps its that I'm used to the T-34/76, which has a relativly weak gun. You simply HAVE to get close for the AP rounds to be of much or any use.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: jay on June 07, 2010, 02:09:47 PM
75 (which i love) can actually smoke most tanks as long as it gets a flank  :rock
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Easyscor on June 07, 2010, 09:00:02 PM
It's taken awhile to get back to this, but I'd like it
as complete as possible. So, lets see if I have it
right for each type of terrain in side by side ratios
for both types of terrain.


Open Country     ||  Wooded
(tunisia)              || (arden08)
M4 75   | Panzer || M4 75 | Panzer
      2    |     1       ||     3     |     2
M4 76   | Panzer || M4 76 | Panzer
      2    |     3      ||      2     |     3
FireFly  | Panzer || FireFly | Panzer
      1    |     4      ||      1     |     3
T34 76 | Panzer || T34 76 | Panzer
      1    |     1      ||      1     |     1
T34 85 | Panzer || T34 85 | Panzer
      1    |     4      ||      1     |     2
FireFly  | Tiger    || FireFly  | Tiger
      4    |     3      ||      1     |     1
M4 75   | Tiger    || M4 75   | Tiger
      4    |     1      ||      3     |     1
M4 76   | Tiger    || M4 76   | Tiger
      4    |     1      ||      2     |     1
T34 76 | Tiger     || T34 76 | Tiger
      3    |     1      ||      3     |     1
T34 85 | Tiger     || T34 85 | Tiger
      1    |     1      ||      1     |     1

It's curious, in the previous versions, I considered the Firefly vs Tiger and even match up, but even with the new change to the Sherman's mantle armor, no one is saying the Firefly is weaker compared to the Tiger.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 07, 2010, 09:21:16 PM
Quote from: Easyscor on June 07, 2010, 09:00:02 PM
It's curious, in the previous versions, I considered the Firefly vs Tiger and even match up, but even with the new change to the Sherman's mantle armor, no one is saying the Firefly is weaker compared to the Tiger.

This change is only a few days old... too early to form a new opinion, there only have been about 70 Sherman VC vs Tiger fights in Late War yet.


I have taken the freedom of changing the table a bit... but it's purely subjective:

Open Country     ||  Wooded
(tunisia)              || (arden08)
M4 75   | Panzer || M4 75 | Panzer
      2    |     1       ||     3     |     2
M4 76   | Panzer || M4 76 | Panzer
      2    |     3      ||      2     |     3
FireFly  | Panzer || FireFly | Panzer
      1    |     4      ||      1     |     3
T34 76 | Panzer || T34 76 | Panzer
      2    |     1      ||      3     |     2
T34 85 | Panzer || T34 85 | Panzer
      1    |     4      ||      1     |     2
FireFly  | Tiger    || FireFly  | Tiger
      4    |     3      ||      1     |     1
M4 75   | Tiger    || M4 75   | Tiger
      6    |     1      ||      4     |     1
M4 76   | Tiger    || M4 76   | Tiger
      4    |     1      ||      2     |     1
T34 76 | Tiger     || T34 76 | Tiger
      5    |     1      ||      4     |     1
T34 85 | Tiger     || T34 85 | Tiger
      2    |     1      ||      3     |     2
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: E25280 on June 07, 2010, 10:21:12 PM
I'm curious as to why you both rated the T-34/85 vs. Panzer as 1-4, same as the Firefly?  It is faster than the Firefly, but the gun is weaker.  I'm not sure I would rate it as low as the Sherman 76 since the T-34 has HVAP and a speed advantage (but Sherman has better rate of fire), but I wouldn't equate it to the Firefly.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 07, 2010, 10:57:12 PM
Here are the most even match ups, assuming a 50/50 number split.

Open Terrain
German | Allied | Soviet

Panzer | M4A3(75)/(76)W* | T-34/76

Tiger I | Firefly | T-34/85**

Wooded Terrain

Panzer | M4A3(75)/(76)W* | T-34/76

Tiger I |Firefly/M4A3(76)W* | T-34/85**

* at a 2-1 ratio, respectively
** given a numbers advantage of 1.5

Firefly is at a disadvantage to the tiger in a fair fight. If the firefly gets the range faster than the tiger, he can still win; but if they get the range at the same time, or the tiger is faster, the firefly is screwed.

And the M4 would need a 3-1 numbers advantage in open terrain, not wooded. In wooded terrain, its whoever sees the other side first wins (M4 is olive drab, not the yellow-brown of the panzer). My advice would be to start a new topic when you use a new map, location on a map, or change the line up. Honestly, things can change from one spawn to the next. Some give a MASSIVE advantage to the defenders (V85 on the compello map, for example), where some give an advantage to the attackers (any where the spawn is uphill from the base/town).



And E25280, the M4A3(76) can COMPETE with the T-34/85, but is by no means its supperior or equal. Also, the T-34 has a paper turret, I've disabled one at 2700yds in one shot. At long range, the HVAP rounds are less effective than standard AP rounds, at med range the 76 can force a draw, and at close range the rule is whoever scores the first hit wins. T-34 has traverse speed (although not by a huge amount), and the M4 has ROF (again, not by any huge amount, but by enough to give it an edge): T-34 is more likely to fire first, but the M4 is more likely to score a hit first should they both miss.

The M4(76)'s gun also gives it a fighting chance against the firefly at close and lower-middle (out to 1300yds or so) range. Out past that, the likely hood of a one-shot kill or disabling shot drops below 40% for a good gunner (thats about all I'm willing to risk since the firefly WILL kill you at that range).
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Karnak on June 08, 2010, 01:06:49 AM
The M4A3(76) is superior to the T-34/85 in all but top speed and perhaps a slight loss of comparative penetration at 1500 yards and above.

I maintain my prior position, from best to worst tanks in AH looks like this:

Tiger I
Sherman VC 'Firefly'
M4A3(76) Sherman
T-34/85
Panzer IV H
T-34/76
M4A3(75) Sherman

The absolutely most balanced fight, in an MA, not historical sense, is the M4A3(76) vs T-34/85 and those two tanks should be the top free tanks, splitting the kills rather than a single tank have absolute dominance as is happening with the M4A3(76) getting three times the kills of the Panzer IV H and having a higher K/D ratio than the T-34/85.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 08, 2010, 06:22:18 PM
Karnak, you forget turret traverse speed, and armor. The frontal armor is equivalent, but the sides and rear are much weaker. However, the turret armor is made of a wet paper bag, so they may be equal. I personally view the T-34/85 as slightly supperior in a one on one engagment, with the M4A3 pulling a bit ahead in an engagment with multiple opponents, as the ROF will let you kill them faster.

And karnak, I personally think that the K/D ratio has to do with a relative lack of weak points for aircraft. I've found none that are as easy to use as those on the T-34's and Panzer. Most likely, T-34's are (getting turreted/killed) by aircraft and (forced to tower out/getting killed) by enemy armor. And if the T-34/85 were free, likely it would overtake the M4A3 is usage and kills.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: BaldEagl on June 08, 2010, 11:48:39 PM
I think you're close.  I'd adjust as follows:

Open Country     ||  Wooded
(tunisia)              || (arden08)
M4 75   | Panzer || M4 75 | Panzer
      2    |     1       ||     3     |     2
M4 76   | Panzer || M4 76 | Panzer
      2    |     2      ||      2     |     3
FireFly  | Panzer || FireFly | Panzer
      1    |     2      ||      1     |     2

With the one above the Panzers need to knock out the Firefly first then overwhelm the 76's.  Four Panzers is just too much for a single tank with a slower recoil (the original 4:1 vs Firefly).

T34 76 | Panzer || T34 76 | Panzer
      2    |     1      ||      2     |     1
T34 85 | Panzer || T34 85 | Panzer
      1    |     3      ||      1     |     2

Again, four is too many.  In this case the Panzers need to knock out the 85 then move on to the 76's.

FireFly  | Tiger    || FireFly  | Tiger
      2    |     2      ||      1     |     2
M4 75   | Tiger    || M4 75   | Tiger
      3    |     1      ||      3     |     1
M4 76   | Tiger    || M4 76   | Tiger
      2    |     2      ||      2     |     1

Here the Tiger's slow traverse rate will really hurt it in a wooded environment.

T34 76 | Tiger     || T34 76 | Tiger
      3    |     1      ||      3     |     1
T34 85 | Tiger     || T34 85 | Tiger
      2    |     1      ||      1     |     1


One thing to consider here is that the guy(s) under attack with lower numbers will be distracted and tempted to rotate the turrets to eliminate threats other than their current targets not knowing what they are as they sit in the guns.  That's part of the reason why even a small numbers advantage can work in a weaker tanks favor.  

I've sat on a field in a Tiger and been tracked by overwhelming numbers of M8's.  You just can't turn the turret fast enough to take out the numbers and that's why any 4:1 vs Panzers is going to be a tough road.  A Panzer can take out any tank in the game.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: 715 on June 09, 2010, 01:38:54 PM
I'm impressed.  You guys must be way more skilled than me in choosing to pit tanks that must close to less than 1K (T34/85) or point blank (T34/76) against Tigers.  I salute your skills, but somehow I think mundane players, like me, will be slaughtered in our T34s.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Karnak on June 09, 2010, 05:08:25 PM
Quote from: Nemisis on June 08, 2010, 06:22:18 PM
And if the T-34/85 were free, likely it would overtake the M4A3 is usage and kills.
Even if that were to happen, which I don't think it would, so what.  I doubt it would have three times the kills over the M4A3(76) as the M4A3(76) has over the Panzer IV H.

The very light perk on the T-34/85 is enough that it sees very little use.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 09, 2010, 05:25:14 PM
Just another chart on changes in tank usage numbers.
Keep in mind tour 125 numbers are just like a snapshot.


(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6505/tanks.jpg)


will post the current tank vs tank K/D matrix later... got some towns to bomb ;)
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 09, 2010, 09:30:01 PM
Eagle, why do you give the M4(75)'s a numbers advantage in the wooded terrain, where they will be able to get within effective firing range MUCH easier? Swap the numbers for M4(75) vs Panzer, and it will be better.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: BaldEagl on June 09, 2010, 11:07:05 PM
Quote from: 715 on June 09, 2010, 01:38:54 PM
I'm impressed.  You guys must be way more skilled than me in choosing to pit tanks that must close to less than 1K (T34/85) or point blank (T34/76) against Tigers.  I salute your skills, but somehow I think mundane players, like me, will be slaughtered in our T34s.

With a 5:2 numbers advantage if you can't get into point blank range with at least 2-3 tanks your strategy has failed.  I don't think this is supposed to work like the MA where everyone is there for themselves with minimal coordination.  Even if it was, you could literally drive circles around a Tiger with a T-34 firing while he tried to get the turret around.

Quote from: Nemisis on June 09, 2010, 09:30:01 PM
Eagle, why do you give the M4(75)'s a numbers advantage in the wooded terrain, where they will be able to get within effective firing range MUCH easier? Swap the numbers for M4(75) vs Panzer, and it will be better.

Because the Panzer's still have a 7:6 overall numbers advantage which they will need given a Firefly and the pair of 76's in addition to the 75's.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 10, 2010, 12:11:24 AM
Seeing as its wooded terrain, the firefly has lost most of its advantage (its gun), as it will be whoever hits first wins. I (personally) would omit the firefly in the wooded terrain, replace it with a M4(76), and give the panzers a numbers advantage of 7:5.

Either I'm far better than average at setting up ambushes and in close quarters combat, or you have an exagerated idea of how hard it will be to defend, even with mostly 75's.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 10, 2010, 06:10:51 AM
And here it is... the current tank vs tank k/d matrix for LW, after 10 days of current tour:

(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/2884/tankmatrix.jpg)

I will do this again after the tour has been completed. Some numbers may shift considerably due to the relatively low number of engagements between certain types.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: 715 on June 10, 2010, 01:54:55 PM
How do you access that data?  The score/stats page used to have "Plane vs Plane", but I haven't been able to find that in a long time.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 10, 2010, 02:35:29 PM
Select "plane" and tour. Klick on a plane's (or GV) kills number to get a list of all targets killed by that plane/GV. Same for deaths. If you klick on the plane/GV name, you get a list of all pilots that did score at least one kill in this plane/Gv in the tour. If it's a completed tour, you will get even more (and sortable) pilot info.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: E25280 on June 10, 2010, 06:10:29 PM
Quote from: Lusche on June 10, 2010, 06:10:51 AM
And here it is... the current tank vs tank k/d matrix for LW, after 10 days of current tour:

(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/2884/tankmatrix.jpg)

I will do this again after the tour has been completed. Some numbers may shift considerably due to the relatively low number of engagements between certain types.
The Sherman 75 shows a 1.1 kill per death ratio against the T-34/76.
The shows T-34/76 a 1.1 kill per death ratio against the Sherman 75.

Shouldn't one of these be a 0.9?  Or am I reading the chart wrong?
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 10, 2010, 06:16:49 PM
Quote from: E25280 on June 10, 2010, 06:10:29 PM
The Sherman 75 shows a 1.1 kill per death ratio against the T-34/76.
The shows T-34/76 a 1.1 kill per death ratio against the Sherman 75.

Shouldn't one of these be a 0.9?  Or am I reading the chart wrong?

No, you are not reading it wrong, yet my numbers are (were) correct. ;)

No how can this be possible? It took me a few minutes to compiled the data, and even though I did that at the time with least action in the MA's, there must have been a tank fight between those two types, which is extraordinary rare.
When I looked up the M4 numbers, it was 17-16, a few minutes later (when I came to the T-34) it was 17-19 - 3 M4(75)'s had been killed by a T-34/76. With numbers that low, it caused a shift in the k/d balance.  :)

This was the only fight during compilation that had any influence on the numbers, though.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 10, 2010, 06:19:44 PM
Not quite as rare as you think. I engaged 2 T-34's two days ago. killed one, and got an assist on the other (damn tiger took my kill  :rofl)
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 10, 2010, 06:26:51 PM
Quote from: Nemisis on June 10, 2010, 06:19:44 PM
Not quite as rare as you think.

The number say otherwise. T-34/76 vs M4(75) is currently  the about rarest tank fight in the LW, tied with a T-34/76 vs T-T-34/76 and M4(75) vs M4(75) duels

Some examples:
M4(76) vs M4(76) - 10164 combats (= recorded kills repectively deaths)
M4(76) vs Panzer - 8887 combats
M4(76) vs Tiger - 1336 combats
Tiger vs T-34/85 - 253 combats
M4(75) vs M4(75) - 12 combats
M4(75) vs T-34/76 - 33 combats


Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: BaldEagl on June 10, 2010, 06:31:50 PM
So if I've interpreted Lusche's table right then, not accounting for terrain, base numbers for each scenario would be:

M475 2 - Panzer 1
M476 1 - Panzer 2
Firefly 1 - Panzer 4


T34/76 2 - Panzer 1
T34/85 2 - Panzer 3


M475 0 - Tiger 0
M476 8 - Tiger 1
Firefly 3 - Tiger 2


T34/76 0 - Tiger 0
T34/85 3 - Tiger 1

Of course coordination of resources would skew these numbers and possibly considerably.

I'm not sure I'd want to be an American in the first scenario or a German in the third or fourth but the second looks ok.

Using those numbers as a baseline I might now revise them to look more like this:

M475 2 - Panzer 1
M476 1 - Panzer 2
Firefly 2 - Panzer 4


T34/76 2 - Panzer 1
T34/85 2 - Panzer 3


M475 0 - Tiger 0
M476 6 - Tiger 2
Firefly 2 - Tiger 2


T34/76 0 - Tiger 0
T34/85 2 - Tiger 1
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: E25280 on June 10, 2010, 06:36:49 PM
Quote from: Lusche on June 10, 2010, 06:16:49 PM
No, you are not reading it wrong, yet my numbers are (were) correct. ;)

No how can this be possible? It took me a few minutes to compiled the data, and even though I did that at the time with least action in the MA's, there must have been a tank fight between those two types, which is extraordinary rare.
When I looked up the M4 numbers, it was 17-16, a few minutes later (when I came to the T-34) it was 17-19 - 3 M4(75)'s had been killed by a T-34/76. With numbers that low, it caused a shift in the k/d balance.  :)

This was the only fight during compilation that had any influence on the numbers, though.
:lol

Well, pretty close no matter how you cut it.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Lusche on June 10, 2010, 06:37:06 PM
Quote from: BaldEagl on June 10, 2010, 06:31:50 PM
So if I've interpreted Lusche's table right then, not accounting for terrain, base numbers for each scenario would be:

M475 2 - Panzer 1
M476 1 - Panzer 2
Firefly 1 - Panzer 4


T34/76 2 - Panzer 1
T34/85 2 - Panzer 3


M475 0 - Tiger 0
M476 8 - Tiger 1
Firefly 3 - Tiger 2


T34/76 0 - Tiger 0
T34/85 3 - Tiger 1


The sad thing is - you can't take the K/D numbers and simply convert it that way. In typical MA gameplay, a Tiger may kill 8 M4(76)W's before finally being killed, but those are mostly 1-2 Shermans facing the Tiger at a time (Tiger sitting on Vbase, defending against one or two guys rolling in repeatedly). Now if you would really have 8 Shermans fighting the Tiger at the same time, the Tiger would hardly have a chance to kill 'em all...


(wrote this before you modified your posting coming to the same conclusion :) )
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 10, 2010, 06:47:02 PM
Eagle, 5 M476's will sufice. The tiger's edge over it isn't THAT great, especially in wooded terrain. Hell, I've snuck up on one when rolling over an open field.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: BaldEagl on June 10, 2010, 06:51:35 PM
Quote from: Nemisis on June 10, 2010, 06:47:02 PM
Eagle, 5 M476's will sufice. The tiger's edge over it isn't THAT great, especially in wooded terrain. Hell, I've snuck up on one when rolling over an open field.

I modified it while you were typing removing one of the Fireflys instead.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: BaldEagl on June 10, 2010, 06:53:52 PM
Quote from: Lusche on June 10, 2010, 06:37:06 PM

The sad thing is - you can't take the K/D numbers and simply convert it that way. In typical MA gameplay, a Tiger may kill 8 M4(76)W's before finally being killed, but those are mostly 1-2 Shermans facing the Tiger at a time (Tiger sitting on Vbase, defending against one or two guys rolling in repeatedly). Now if you would really have 8 Shermans fighting the Tiger at the same time, the Tiger would hardly have a chance to kill 'em all...


(wrote this before you modified your posting coming to the same conclusion :) )

No.

I want to see the scenario with 85 M475's against a single Tiger.   :D
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 11, 2010, 06:18:03 PM
I wouldn't mind taking one on with 10 so long as they didn't start us out 3200yds apart with no cover but the burms inbetween us.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Easyscor on June 14, 2010, 02:39:26 PM
I’ve added a page for this information to the CM team’s private reference pages that I maintain. It’s still marked Under Construction, probably until the end of this month.

I’m looking forward to seeing Lusche’s final tour data, and at that time I’ll review all of these posts again before I update and bless the page for CM reference.

To all the posters in this thread, you have my thanks.  :salute
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 14, 2010, 06:05:49 PM
No problem easyscor. And is there any chance that we will see tanks in the scenarios again?
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: jay on June 14, 2010, 10:54:32 PM
how about this it ALL depends on WHO is driving the darned tanka anyways????!!
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Easyscor on June 15, 2010, 10:37:54 AM
Quote from: Nemisis on June 14, 2010, 06:05:49 PM
No problem easyscor. And is there any chance that we will see tanks in the scenarios again?
That would be a Brooke question, but since he started this thread, perhaps he's thinking about it.

I record and archive information like this and try to present it in an informative way, which helps the Admin CMs build their setups. It's very important data in this case, as you and others have alluded, sheer numbers but especially the terrain, can severely impact the success of a GV event.

Yes Jay, in the context of your post, that's true in the MAs and for what I call 'registered walkons'. No matter how good you are, if your undisciplined group comes up against a group that has been practicing tank tactic, (same for any ride) they will win and you will loose. The information we're seeking in this thread is data that the CMs may use to make sure that the outcome wasn't skewed by our setup, that you have a fair shot at coming out on top.

Edit: spelling
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Fencer51 on June 15, 2010, 11:02:48 AM
Quote from: Nemisis on June 14, 2010, 06:05:49 PM
No problem easyscor. And is there any chance that we will see tanks in the scenarios again?

Yes.  There is a special project in the works which will enable alot of possibilities.  After all I am not doing all those skins for the MA!

The question is are there enough people interested in staffing a vehicle only event?
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: WMLute on June 15, 2010, 04:11:27 PM
Quote from: Fencer51 on June 15, 2010, 11:02:48 AM
Yes.  There is a special project in the works which will enable alot of possibilities.  After all I am not doing all those skins for the MA!

The question is are there enough people interested in staffing a vehicle only event?

Depends on what you are planning to do.

SnapShot?  sure.

Scenario?  maybe.

FSO?  doubt it.
Title: Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
Post by: Nemisis on June 15, 2010, 06:51:36 PM
Easyscor, thats not necessarily true. Once, we (bishops) took a V base about 3 sectors from the knit strats. We held it for something like 3 hours against determined, well organized attack from both the air, and from GV's. We held if for so long because Snarglie, Regolith, myself, and several other good GV'ers were defending it. We were opperating pretty much independently, occationally offering support when possible.

Point is that even a few good, but unorganized people can beat many average players. As I've said before (although in a different thread), most players problems stems from their hesitation when advancing, and their impatience when defending. They don't move fast enough, and let the enemy get into good defensive positions, or they just ambush the enemy from where ever, and fire too soon.