Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: BulletVI on May 30, 2010, 04:58:32 PM

Title: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: BulletVI on May 30, 2010, 04:58:32 PM
 :furious        Now I'm mad at the Aces High II team. For some time now i have heard from fellow players and friends in Aces High II about them being text banned for excessive swearing and general stick's and stones chat between 2 players. May i suggest that the Aces High II team Implement A program that if you Type in A swear or Racist words that it is replaced By ****** as i have just typed stars. this shall prove more than effective than banning players from chat for a few days. Again i do realise that due to time zones differences that At 10pm UK time there may be young children on the game in the USA at 6pm USA time. but still if swear words or racial words show up as stars then they shan't have a clue as to what they mean. I believe that this is best for all players and the Ace's High II team as it will save them some time in filing through all the text reports they may receive. Text reports should only be used if a player is constantly abusing another player even with a ***** star cover setting then if a player wants him to stop then that player should be reported.

These are my thoughts on the situation of text banning if any other member has any thoughts on this matter feel free to discuss this.

Example ::::  You Mother ****** You shot me down

This Is an example of how the text in Aces High II should show show in the text bar for swearing or racial text :-)

Thanks for reading and commenting on this post.


at no time is this post meant to tell Aces High II how to run their game its a suggestion.

Thanks

BulletVI

 :rofl :aok :huh :lol :) :) :O :angel: :mad: :devil :salute :devil :x :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :O :O :O :O

Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: dunnrite on May 30, 2010, 05:02:38 PM
Or...don't swear

Problem solved.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Jayhawk on May 30, 2010, 05:02:59 PM
Try typing a swear word into the text buffer.  They already have a similar program at work.  However, people find ways to get their message across.  Symbols like @, $, and substitute letters like Zs allow people to "bypass" that filter.  People will always find a way to work around the system, not much you can do about it.  Report the bad ones, but there is only so much you can do.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: SunBat on May 30, 2010, 05:09:47 PM
I have never had a problem with the way it is now.  Learn how to talk without swearing it's good for ya.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: grizz441 on May 30, 2010, 05:13:17 PM
Having ******* asterisks is classified as Masking which is a form of profanity in itself.  Personally I don't think you should get muted for automated system warnings, when it deletes your message before it is even sent out.  The number of times I have gotten warned for typing nosepit is just insane.  If the automated system captures your message, then no harm no foul.  If you choose to mask it to bypass the filter, then the mods should mute you.  I think the mods do a good job.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Guppy35 on May 30, 2010, 05:15:17 PM
If you are so bent out of shape you need to take the time to type swear words, then you probably need to lay down and take your nap.  It's not HTC's job to babysit folks who can't handle themselves.

Umpteen years of playing AW and AH and I've yet to find the need to type profanity.

Could be your friends need to grow up a bit?
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: SPKmes on May 30, 2010, 05:20:25 PM
They have systems in place...If people feel they are unjustly banned then it can be taken up with HTC. Generally though if there is a ban in place it is due to a good reason...just because you replace a word for **** doesn't mean anything, the intent is there and it can be plainly seen and to think that the younger players couldn't work out what you have said in your (for this instance) example is just plain ignorant. As has been said above..just refrain from full blown cursing. There are plenty of other ways to get your point across that are 1) more comical and 2) more scathing..... From what I've noticed it is the people who continuously push the boundaries that find themselves in trouble and looking about for the closest person to blame.

The other thing you can do is keep this stuff to your squad channel or private...do it on open/range channel and expect to be silenced. 
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: thndregg on May 30, 2010, 05:36:12 PM
:furious        Now I'm mad at the Aces High II team.

Then take it up directly with them. :huh Like this publicity is going to lead to some ultimate solution?
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: WMLute on May 30, 2010, 06:03:18 PM
to add...

In order to swear in AcesHigh you have to mask the curse word.

That means not only do you have to type it, but you have to figure out a way to type it so it shows up.

The automated system is in place and I don't think HTC should have to try and figure out all the diff. variables you can use to mask a curse word.

Stupid idea.

A better idea would be to grow up and just not curse where children might be present.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: uptown on May 30, 2010, 06:10:08 PM
Or...don't swear

Problem solved.
Pretty simple really
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: ImADot on May 30, 2010, 06:20:35 PM
You *****. Don't *** think that **** stars can turn a ***** post into some ***** where **** people won't be able to ***** tell what the *** *** ********  ****** you're saying.

Not a bad word in this post, prove me wrong.  :D


Seriously though...in the heat of the moment, your mouth may beat your brain in the race to show how you feel.  But, your brain most certainly will win the race against your fingers.  Just take a breath and think for those couple of seconds what you really want to say, and how you really want to be perceived by the community.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: thndregg on May 30, 2010, 06:23:59 PM
A better idea would be to grow up and just not curse where children might be present.

Agree.

I so want to introduce my kids to AH. Yes, there is the offline (missions) mode, but that does not replace the human factor. I don't want my kids running into errant bad-mouth behavior. This is where the only viable option exsists that I can think of. Aces High 1 still has network play if I am not mistaken. I guess I will have to make do. :(
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Tupac on May 30, 2010, 09:17:40 PM
half the cursing in the DA is from children LOL, pop in sometime and listen to the squeakers holler cuss words at the top of their lungs
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: mbailey on May 30, 2010, 09:26:01 PM
If you are so bent out of shape you need to take the time to type swear words, then you probably need to lay down and take your nap.  It's not HTC's job to babysit folks who can't handle themselves.

Umpteen years of playing AW and AH and I've yet to find the need to type profanity.

Could be your friends need to grow up a bit?


QFT
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Boxboy on May 30, 2010, 09:50:45 PM
Agree.

I so want to introduce my kids to AH. Yes, there is the offline (missions) mode, but that does not replace the human factor. I don't want my kids running into errant bad-mouth behavior. This is where the only viable option exsists that I can think of. Aces High 1 still has network play if I am not mistaken. I guess I will have to make do. :(

When do you plan on removing your kids from school?, or are they home schooled??? While I do not condone swearing I also do not condone using kids to make my point.  The facts are that kids will hear worse on the street and anyone who thinks they will not is just kidding themselves.

I applaud your efforts to raise your kids correctly but doubt that you can save them from hearing "blue" language.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Tupac on May 30, 2010, 09:54:35 PM
When do you plan on removing your kids from school?, or are they home schooled??? While I do not condone swearing I also do not condone using kids to make my point.  The facts are that kids will hear worse on the street and anyone who thinks they will not is just kidding themselves.

I applaud your efforts to raise your kids correctly but doubt that you can save them from hearing "blue" language.

it was a shock to me in sixth grade when i heard the language, now in high school i dont think twice about it. They will get exposed, one way or another
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: thndregg on May 30, 2010, 10:47:59 PM
My older sons will be in 5th & 4th grades next year. My youngest son starts Kindergarten at that time.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Guppy35 on May 30, 2010, 10:58:48 PM
When do you plan on removing your kids from school?, or are they home schooled??? While I do not condone swearing I also do not condone using kids to make my point.  The facts are that kids will hear worse on the street and anyone who thinks they will not is just kidding themselves.

I applaud your efforts to raise your kids correctly but doubt that you can save them from hearing "blue" language.

I understand your point, but its one thing to 'slip' verbally and even that's a weak excuse.  There is no excuse for taking the time to type the 'blue' language.  That's not an accident.

Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: kvuo75 on May 30, 2010, 11:28:07 PM
I have no problem with vulgar or obscene language, or profanity or curses, or "taking the lord's name in vain", or "drawing a picture of the prophet".. The fact there are words in any language that repulse or otherwise anger and irritate other people into a frenzy has boggled me since I turned 10, 25 years ago..

that said, I go by the rules.. hitech says no such language, it's his house, play by his rules.  It really isn't that difficult. 

 
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: KingRat on May 30, 2010, 11:44:53 PM
I've only been text muted once as far as I can remember and that was just for careless joking around with squaddies not in anger.  I agree with grizz that if the system is capable of catching offensive text and deleting the message before it's sent there's no reason to mute anybody.  Just pop up the warning that offensive text won't be tolerated and let it go at that...it would be pretty stupid for somebody to keep doing it when they know it won't be sent anyway and they keep getting the pop-up.   The only reason I can think of for muting people is if the server is overloaded with offensive text and can't handle it, which I seriously doubt is the case.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: bravoa8 on May 30, 2010, 11:56:45 PM
When do you plan on removing your kids from school?, or are they home schooled??? While I do not condone swearing I also do not condone using kids to make my point.  The facts are that kids will hear worse on the street and anyone who thinks they will not is just kidding themselves.

I applaud your efforts to raise your kids correctly but doubt that you can save them from hearing "blue" language.
Yea it's really pitiful how some kids 10 years old swear like sailors.

Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: froger on May 31, 2010, 01:20:00 AM
If you are so bent out of shape you need to take the time to type swear words, then you probably need to lay down and take your nap.  It's not HTC's job to babysit folks who can't handle themselves.

Umpteen years of playing AW and AH and I've yet to find the need to type profanity.

Could be your friends need to grow up a bit?


 :rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: WMLute on May 31, 2010, 01:26:07 AM
it would be pretty stupid for somebody to keep doing it when they know it won't be sent anyway and they keep getting the pop-up. 

They obviously CAN'T type an offensive word because the automated system catches it.

So they mask it and type it anyway.

Remember, we are dealing with mostly idiots in this scenario as anybody with just a bit o' brains can figure out that you can say much, much, much more creative (and might I add meaner) stuff to people w/o resorting to profanity.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: palef on May 31, 2010, 01:27:18 AM
"Sending up ISS astronauts" can get you muted for 10 minutes.

There are many other combinations that do the same thing.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Ghosth on May 31, 2010, 08:47:20 AM
You got warned first, and you tried to send it again? ROFL
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: mbailey on May 31, 2010, 09:01:13 AM


I applaud your efforts to raise your kids correctly but doubt that you can save them from hearing "blue" language.

As the dad of twin 9yrolds (boy/girl) i know that i cant save them from hearing it, but what i think thndregg meant is that being a dad, its his responsibilty to not put them in the situation where they can hear it. I know that if its something i can control ( keeping them from hearing it ) you can bet that im gonna do what i need to do to keep it from happening.

Im no angel when it comes to throwing around a 4 letter word now and then, but never in game. I take it as my responsibility to make sure that any littleones playing (  within earshot or visual range of mom or dad playing )arent exposed to it, and honestly it just comes across as ignorant. It takes a village so to speak,Just my opinion.

 
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: gyrene81 on May 31, 2010, 09:38:03 AM
When do you plan on removing your kids from school?, or are they home schooled??? While I do not condone swearing I also do not condone using kids to make my point.  The facts are that kids will hear worse on the street and anyone who thinks they will not is just kidding themselves.

I applaud your efforts to raise your kids correctly but doubt that you can save them from hearing "blue" language.
Come on Boxboy, we all know the obvious, you can't shield your kids from stupid people their entire lives. The point is there are responsible parents in AH that are trying to teach their children right from wrong, and introduce them to AH but they are being subjected to the offspring of people who either cannot or will not teach their offspring right from wrong.


To the OP, you and your buddies need to learn better language skills. If your parents allow you to talk to them that way, maybe you should teach them right from wrong because they obviously failed to teach you. If you want to cuss like you know what you're saying, get yourself a teamspeak or ventrilo server and do it amongst yourselves. It doesn't belong in the text buffer or on vox and be grateful your accounts haven't been banned...yet.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: jimson on May 31, 2010, 10:09:27 AM
No sympathy here.

Profanity has become too acceptable. Too many people use the F-bomb like it is simply another adjective.

It's low class and I don't care who gets banned because of it.

Expand your vocabulary.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: The Grinch on May 31, 2010, 10:37:44 AM
:furious        Now I'm mad at the Aces High II team. For some time now i have heard from fellow players and friends in Aces High II about them being text banned for excessive swearing and general stick's and stones chat between 2 players. May i suggest that the Aces High II team Implement A program that if you Type in A swear or Racist words that it is replaced By ****** as i have just typed stars. this shall prove more than effective than banning players from chat for a few days. Again i do realise that due to time zones differences that At 10pm UK time there may be young children on the game in the USA at 6pm USA time. but still if swear words or racial words show up as stars then they shan't have a clue as to what they mean. I believe that this is best for all players and the Ace's High II team as it will save them some time in filing through all the text reports they may receive. Text reports should only be used if a player is constantly abusing another player even with a ***** star cover setting then if a player wants him to stop then that player should be reported.

These are my thoughts on the situation of text banning if any other member has any thoughts on this matter feel free to discuss this.

Example ::::  You Mother ****** You shot me down

This Is an example of how the text in Aces High II should show show in the text bar for swearing or racial text :-)

Thanks for reading and commenting on this post.


at no time is this post meant to tell Aces High II how to run their game its a suggestion.

Thanks

BulletVI

 :rofl :aok :huh :lol :) :) :O :angel: :mad: :devil :salute :devil :x :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :O :O :O :O


Hello. The best thing is to just simply not to bother. I have received a lot of crap via PM and over 200 channel. But I think that I was better there. Many can not stand that a newbie actually starting to make things look good, I was miserable in the beginning. But now I start to make things happen, especially when I shoot down the pilots who have some more time behind the stick than I have, and basically try to shoot you down, and you win.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Boxboy on May 31, 2010, 11:35:04 AM
Come on Boxboy, we all know the obvious, you can't shield your kids from stupid people their entire lives. The point is there are responsible parents in AH that are trying to teach their children right from wrong, and introduce them to AH but they are being subjected to the offspring of people who either cannot or will not teach their offspring right from wrong.


To the OP, you and your buddies need to learn better language skills. If your parents allow you to talk to them that way, maybe you should teach them right from wrong because they obviously failed to teach you. If you want to cuss like you know what you're saying, get yourself a teamspeak or ventrilo server and do it amongst yourselves. It doesn't belong in the text buffer or on vox and be grateful your accounts haven't been banned...yet.

Sorry I just see no point in bringing in the kids to support an arguement that would easily stand on its' own.  The facts are that .squelch works and detuning 200 also works, so keeping the kids away from the "blue" language is possible while letting them play AH.


Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Swoop on May 31, 2010, 11:36:24 AM
You're a ****** ******** **** **** ****** who ***** a ******* ******** up of a ******* **** **** **** and ***** ***** with a **** ******* ***** and a kipper.

Now is there any doubt about what I just told you?  Would / should I have been muted in game for typing such filth?

Probably.  Now if ya like I can type that lot out again using @'s and Z's and 0's and 1's to get around the text filter but I'd only be hit with the ban stick so hard that you lot wouldn't have a Wednesday Babe again for a month, so which would you prefer?  

Mind your language or no Babes.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Wildcat1 on May 31, 2010, 11:42:28 AM
Sorry I just see no point in bringing in the kids to support an arguement that would easily stand on its' own.  The facts are that .squelch works and detuning 200 also works, so keeping the kids away from the "blue" language is possible while letting them play AH.




(http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy329/Wildcat1995/533.jpg)
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Tinribs on May 31, 2010, 11:43:49 AM
half the cursing in the DA is from children LOL, pop in sometime and listen to the squeakers holler cuss words at the top of their lungs
Oh the irony of it all,without doubt the biggest offenders are the kids the very people that all this censorship is supposed to mainly be protecting,if its a particular personnel attack ban em other than that I dont see the need for it.I must also point out that I am in no way having a go at the squeekers its great to see so many of em playing and having an interest in all things ww2.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: SmokinLoon on May 31, 2010, 01:39:22 PM
There is an old saying that those who swear cant think of something more intelligent to say. 

Also, if you need to resort to name calling in that drastic of a sense then it need not be allowed at all.  It is one thing to call someone a chicken, but completely different to call someone a kahk sukken mudder fudder because they got the upper hand on you.

I say to keep it as is. 
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: The Grinch on May 31, 2010, 01:41:23 PM
There is an old saying that those who swear cant think of something more intelligent to say. 

Also, if you need to resort to name calling in that drastic of a sense then it need not be allowed at all.  It is one thing to call someone a chicken, but completely different to call someone a kahk sukken mudder fudder because they got the upper hand on you.

I say to keep it as is. 
:salute
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: palef on May 31, 2010, 01:52:51 PM
You got warned first, and you tried to send it again? ROFL


Yep. I tried rewording it. I'm easily confused after the last head injury and couldn't see that I was typing anything offensive. I've had to learn to read and write again over the last 6 months so it was extremely frustrating.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Boxboy on May 31, 2010, 02:16:25 PM
(http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy329/Wildcat1995/533.jpg)

Change that to parents and you got a winner LOL
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: dkff49 on May 31, 2010, 06:52:19 PM
I really have to disagree with the not muting someone just because the filter caught it. Basically because the way it is discourages people from attempting to defeat the filters because of the penalties for getting it wrong. Though it does not work for all, I think that it would be much worse without it.

Personally I think the muting system works very well and needs very little if any tweaking. It is very simple, don't use offensive language you don't get muted.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: BulletVI on May 31, 2010, 08:12:56 PM

yeah but come on fellas i may be Scottish but i don't curse every second word. im talking about a friend was joking about with a fellow player who said far worse to him than what he said back. my friend was called a Hacker A Cheat A no good looser of a shishter. an all he said ah it looks like the old fart is mad. now he was reported for that 1 comment i mean what 4 year old nowadays dosent know the phrase old fart i bet the kid will learn that from his parents by the time he's 1 and a half :-)   .   what im saying is that like aloit of other online games i play true swear words should be shown as for example toejamster S******r ok  but general sticks an stones shouldnt matter. as all our parents would say sticks and stones may brake your bones but names will never harm you. Now i play an online game that 5 year old's can play and on that game swear words like toejam are **** and words like Bastard Aren't ******* So what's the harm i mean at-least it saves you clicking on ok from the warning :-)

BulletVI
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: BulletVI on May 31, 2010, 08:13:59 PM
Oh And Plus swearing was around in WW2 LOL
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Tupac on May 31, 2010, 09:25:12 PM
Oh And Plus swearing was around in WW2 LOL

yeah, the cursing is in the game for a more realistic feel
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: The Fugitive on May 31, 2010, 09:30:37 PM
Oh And Plus swearing was around in WW2 LOL

This isn't WWII

kids play this game and HTC would like to keep as many players here as possible.... bank checks look better that way.

And of course the big one, it's in the rules you AND your buddy agreed to when you loaded the game up.

Grow up, own up, and take your punishment like a good little boy, and hopefully LEARN from it.  :O
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Guppy35 on May 31, 2010, 11:27:25 PM
Oh And Plus swearing was around in WW2 LOL

The second you start really dying, you feel free to talk anyway you want.  Til then it's just a game.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: thndregg on May 31, 2010, 11:36:39 PM
Oh And Plus swearing was around in WW2 LOL

Oh, that makes it okay, eh? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :huh
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Ghosth on June 01, 2010, 06:48:36 AM
You  can swear like a drunken sailer, on "your" side of the monitor.

All HTC asks is that you keep it a bit clean on the other side.

You have the choice every time before you hit that enter key.

So swear all you want on your side, but please don't feel you need to share.

Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: grizz441 on June 01, 2010, 07:10:42 AM
I really have to disagree with the not muting someone just because the filter caught it. Basically because the way it is discourages people from attempting to defeat the filters because of the penalties for getting it wrong. Though it does not work for all, I think that it would be much worse without it.

It's just not necessary.  The variant of cursing that potentially affects the game is public masking, which imo is not related to any sort of Pavlovian trigger that was created due to the automated features.  The automated feature does good at capturing curse words, but HTC should try to get rid of the automated mute feature and rely on mods and the report button.   

p.s. Cockpit needs to be added to the list of allowable words in a flight sim.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: gyrene81 on June 01, 2010, 09:34:15 AM
yeah but come on fellas i may be Scottish but i don't curse every second word. im talking about a friend was joking about with a fellow player who said far worse to him than what he said back. my friend was called a Hacker A Cheat A no good looser of a shishter. an all he said ah it looks like the old fart is mad. now he was reported for that 1 comment i mean what 4 year old nowadays dosent know the phrase old fart i bet the kid will learn that from his parents by the time he's 1 and a half :-)   .   what im saying is that like aloit of other online games i play true swear words should be shown as for example toejamster S******r ok  but general sticks an stones shouldnt matter. as all our parents would say sticks and stones may brake your bones but names will never harm you. Now i play an online game that 5 year old's can play and on that game swear words like toejam are **** and words like Bastard Aren't ******* So what's the harm i mean at-least it saves you clicking on ok from the warning :-)

BulletVI
If that is indeed all there was to it, then your friend should have gotten a couple screen shots of the text and reported the other person. Somehow I'm doubting that was all there was to the incident.

You really do need to stop using e-speak, your spelling is atrocious.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: dkff49 on June 01, 2010, 03:22:04 PM
It's just not necessary.  The variant of cursing that potentially affects the game is public masking, which imo is not related to any sort of Pavlovian trigger that was created due to the automated features.  The automated feature does good at capturing curse words, but HTC should try to get rid of the automated mute feature and rely on mods and the report button.   

p.s. Cockpit needs to be added to the list of allowable words in a flight sim.  :rolleyes:

Honestly I think a mixed system like we have is the best. There are as many complaints about mods being unfair as there are about the automated system.

I do agree that cockpit should be an allowed word though I'm not sure how the coding works on filters like that.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: ImADot on June 01, 2010, 05:56:22 PM
Imagine the AI needed to take context into account...

My cockpit gauges are all fuzzy.
You cockpit!  Quit HO'ing me.
You're a cockpit if you think you are the shiznit here.

I think the system would melt down.
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: fbEagle on June 10, 2010, 04:50:49 PM
Now i like this game just as much as the next guy and i know ive complained on here about this and that but heres the the thing most people need to remember.
ITS JUST A GAME
so if you get mad enough over a game to swear at one another or about things you've got problems.  :salute
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: SIK1 on June 10, 2010, 11:04:58 PM
No sympathy here.

Profanity has become too acceptable. Too many people use the F-bomb like it is simply another adjective.

It's low class and I don't care who gets banned because of it.

Expand your vocabulary.

Completely agree... :salute
Title: Re: Swearing And Text Bans
Post by: Jayhawk on June 10, 2010, 11:12:55 PM
It doesn't really matter how I feel about cursing, I understand HTC's rules and follow them (though I'm not so high up on my horse to not admit I've slipped before).