Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: FTJR on May 31, 2010, 05:13:12 AM
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Hi Guys,
I managed to go away just as the new mossie was released, I followed Greebo's SEA mossie thread, and Krusty's Silver vs Bare Metal thread as well. While this is a redo of the L-NA, im considering going for A-NA as I have better photo's. Anyway, suggestions appreciated.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/ahss39.jpg)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/ahss38.jpg)
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My first impression was that this was a bare metal skin rather than silver-painted, so perhaps the specularity in the material.txt file is a bit high?
For details, I like to see a little shadow between spinner and the engine nacelle - maybe a touch of grime here as well. I also think shadowing along the hinges of control surfaces looks good - I've been using one line of shadow along the leading edge of the control surface followed immediately by another line of glare, to try to give the impression of a curved surface.
Were the Mossie's rudder, ailerons, and elevators fabric-convered or metal? If fabric, you could enhance the ribbed structure in these areas (I see it on the rudder but not on the elevators or ailerons).
Overall, I think it's a real stand-out skin for the Mossie-- maybe a tad clean (exhaust stack & gun muzzle dirt/grime), but its hard to show dirt/grime on a shiny bird effectively because the dirt/grime gets the same specularity value as the skin. It does make me want to get in and fly it though!
<S> and welcome back!
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Hi Oboe,
Yes it does look more metal than it should, there is dirt there, only after posting did I realise its a bit too distant for detail, and I have the lines turned down low.
Im pretty sure the control surfaces are all metal, but I stand to be corrected, all the photo's i have show a bit of ribbing on the rudder, but none (that I can see) on the elevators.
Thanks for the input.
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Nice job FTJR. :aok
The silver RAAF Mossies probably didn't have enough time to get really dirty in the time they were used in combat, but maybe a bit exhaust dirt could be added. Also some oil below the nacelles (the Merlin was quite a leaky engine) and some gun dirt if its not already there.
The elevators and ailerons were metal skinned on the Mosquito, the flaps were plywood and only the rudder was fabric covered.
Below is the material file I used on my silver 82 Sqn Mossie, in real life this aircraft would probably have been a bit dirtier than yours though. So you would probably want a higher specularity value than mine.
0.302,0.302,0.302,Ambient
0.439,0.439,0.439,Diffuse
0.000,0.000,0.000,Emissive
0.475,0.471,0.465,Specular
8.200,Power
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Going along with the materials.txt comments, I'd ask if you can do a version with some subtle highlights painted on, and toning the reflective shine in the materials.txt down a bit.
I'm a novice with this silver paint surface coloring, but something looks a tad off. Might be the "too shiny" aspect plus the lack of little shadows/lines along certain areas as mentioned already.
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:aok
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Hi Greebo,
Thanks for the input, as it happens my material file is identical to yours with the exception that the specular is .567, .536, .490
As I mentioned in the post to Oboe, most of the grime is there, just getting the correct combination of it is the trick which im not yet able perform.
Anyway an update
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/ahss7.jpg)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/ahss3.jpg)
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Going along with the materials.txt comments, I'd ask if you can do a version with some subtle highlights painted on, and toning the reflective shine in the materials.txt down a bit.
I'm a novice with this silver paint surface coloring, but something looks a tad off. Might be the "too shiny" aspect plus the lack of little shadows/lines along certain areas as mentioned already.
Hi Krusty,
I know what you're asking, I just dont know if I can achieve it, I turned up the panel lines in response to the earlier posts, is that helpful? To the material, that is untouched just at the moment.
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I have noticed in my recent P-47N attempts and from my past B-17G attempts that when you monkey with the materials.txt file you can really wash out a lot of the weathering detail. I started out using the specularity, then ended up toning it way down and all the details started coming back out.
As an experiment (just for yourself, if you like), try this materials.txt:
0.400,0.400,0.400,Ambient
0.600,0.600,0.600,Diffuse
0.000,0.000,0.000,Emissive
0.700,0.700,0.700,Specular
25,Power
[edit: that's my recent p-47n values]
And compare how the details/weathering change. I think overall that power value on the last line (at least, in my fiddling and playing around) tended to add too much shine, so I bumped the number up and up (thus reducing the shine to lower and lower levels).
If none of that helps, oh well, I gave it a shot. New territory for me :)
Definitely watching this skin's progress with interest.
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I like what I see so far! My suggestions: add some more oil streaks near the exhaust pipes from both sides of the engine nacelles. I would also lightly darken the gun smoke soot next to the 20mm guns on the fuselage. Also, what do you suppose if you were to darken the gray paint just a little bit? Might that give it a more "silver" appearance? Would it tone down the illusion of the specularity? Just food for thought.
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Ok this is a quick sample of choices, L_NA is unaltered from earlier, A_NA is the same but using Krusty's material file suggestion, the naked one is a slightly different mix of colours using L_NA's material file.
Krusty, just so you know, i am using Greebo's 82 squadron mossie as target to shoot for.
Plazus thanks for the suggestions, the naked mossie is an attempt to answer your question about giving a more silver appearance.
sorry the mash up of the photo's is an attempt to save space and make it easier to compare, but its ugly. plus i've added a photo of A_NA
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/collage.jpg)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/128849.jpg) (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/NEA0662.jpg)
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Nice photos - am I seeing a hint of ribbing on the left aileron in the lower right pic?
Might be a nice touch to have some panel lines darker than others - flaps, for example, and where the engine is mounted into wing look a little darker in the pics...
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Hi Oboe,
Re the ribbing, I have a copy of a walkaround, and it shows no ribbingon the aileron, and to be honest I cant see it on the photo's ( but my eyes are bad). I agree on the panel lines, and am working on it.
JR.
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Ok, last one for the day,
Updated the grime, exhaust stains, and defined some panel lines.
Played with the material file
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/ahss11-1.jpg)
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Seeing the side-by-side screenshots, it appears my suggested materials values weren't much different. Oh well, it was worth a shot. :aok
I think you're getting close to those pictures in that they are silver but not overly shiny/reflective. There aren't as many specular highlights on the surface of the plane. Does it pick up shine when the light hits it at other angles? I can see it off the nose and leading edges, but not much else. Can't tell if that's the materials values or just the angle of the sun.
If so, I think you've hit a decent balance. If not, might suggest just lowering the "power" value just a couple of numbers (lower value = more highlights/reflectivity).
My next suggestion is a little long, but simple in theory.
Copy your panel lines layer(s). Straight-up duplicate them so you have 2. Select the entire layer (i.e. "select all"). Using whatever selection tool you like, DESELECT the areas of panel line that run the outer borders of the flaps, ailerons, rudder, elevators, and cockpit hatch. [Edit: Might include gear doors and bomb bay doors as well?] Now you have everything BUT them selected. Press the delete/clear key.
Now you have just created a layer that brings out specific panel lines, and you can raise/lower as needed. Leave it on top of previous layer(s) and export the skin again.
To sum up, it makes the areas where there would be noticable gaps more visible, but without ruining your previous panel lines efforts.
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FT,
Maybe you've got this already and I can't tell - but do you have light and dark panel line layers with 1px diagonal offset to simulate glare between panel sections? I think all I'm seeing is the dark lines, no light ones for accents.
Since its paint, you will be able to add chips/scratches also along panel section seams, esp around access panels. No idea what color should show through chipped paint though - since the a/c is wood not aluminum.
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It's fabric and wood covered, you wouldn't "chip" so much as fade and wear off, but as mentioned in the other silver mossie thread they only had this paint scheme for a little while (it was freshly painted) so I'd doubt it would have much wear and tear.
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Some extra photo's of A-NA.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/OG3124.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/NEA0663.jpg)
Same photo as FTJR's just a little clearer.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/mosquito.jpg)
Not sure if you would do stencils but this is a good picture.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/VIC2060.jpg)
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It's fabric and wood covered, you wouldn't "chip" so much as fade and wear off, but as mentioned in the other silver mossie thread they only had this paint scheme for a little while (it was freshly painted) so I'd doubt it would have much wear and tear.
Correct I have a lot of pictures of this squadron & it is very hard to find dirty aircraft the bottom picture of the first page is about as scuffed up an aircraft I can find.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Scan1-13.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/NEA0679.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/NEA0680.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P03132.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/NEA0681.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P03132er-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P03132qw.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/NEA0682.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P03132-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/NEA0678.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Scan11-10.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/OG3128.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/OG3185.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/OG3291.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Scan7-14.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/045059.jpg)
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FT,
Maybe you've got this already and I can't tell - but do you have light and dark panel line layers with 1px diagonal offset to simulate glare between panel sections? I think all I'm seeing is the dark lines, no light ones for accents.
Since its paint, you will be able to add chips/scratches also along panel section seams, esp around access panels. No idea what color should show through chipped paint though - since the a/c is wood not aluminum.
Oboe, yes that has all been done, the base colour makes the lighter lines difficult to see. As Krusty mentioned, wood is a bit difficult to weather, and again the base paint makes it hard to see the effect, when I get this satisfactory I intend to redo my ETO mossie, and that should be easier to see the paint peeling. Also please remember that the RAAF mossies where only a couple of months old so there was little time to get so battered.
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Lyric, thanks for the photo's
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Perhaps too dirty?
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/ahss16.jpg)
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That looks much better. Now here are my thoughts:
1. Make the silver paint just slightly lighter in color (only by the slightest bit)
2. With the weathering, make it just slightly darker in color (only by the slightest bit)
*This will make both the silver paint and weathering more contrasting and easier to see*
3. Make the Roundels more vivid in color. The roundels should contrast well with the silver paint. Make the blue more bluer, and the white more whiter. Judging by those pictures, those roundels stand out pretty well against the silver.
4. You might want to make the prop spinners a little lighter too, as they look pretty dark when compared to the historical photos. The spinners may actually be the exact color as the rest of the aircraft.
Hope this helps achieve the look youre wanting to see! :salute
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Hey Oboe, thanks for the tips, please bear in mind the planes only reached the theatre about 2 months before the wars end.
You're right about the roundels, and codes, they'd have no time to fade in the tropical sun, and having said that, it may still be too dirty, what do you think?
I put the straight silver on the spinners, but it may be "too" much.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/ahss18-1.jpg)
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Best version yet! I went back through the photos and spinners can be either lighter, the same, or darker than the plane, so I think this'd be your choice based on the best info you have about the particular plane your skinning.
Can I see a screenshot with 1 notch of flaps? There's been something I've been seeing in the photos near the rear of the engine nacelle and wing area - I'd like to see how AH handles it.
Also does this bird have any artwork on the crew access door as many do shown in your photos?
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Oboe,
here you go, and no there is no artwork on the door, the only artwork is the mosquito under the pilot. I darkened the spinners a touch. I think I will go with this version.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/ahss19.jpg)
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Nice work so far FTJR!
I think you need more panel line shadings in order to create different shades on the wing. What also works is motion blurred weathering.
I tried to edit your last screen-shot to give you an idea what I'm talking about.
(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/9541/ftjr.jpg)
I also edited a little dirt, as in my opinion clean planes can look right in some simulations, but not in Aces High. (I know some of you call this a simulation).
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I dunno Mus.... That's a good tip for BMF skins, but for a freshly-painted, uniform colored, silver camo finish? I don't think it "fits" -- I think the smoother finish fits this particular bird better.
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Thanks for indulging me, FT! I think those photos may have been taken with a notch of flaps down?
Personally, I've decided I like dirty planes better. I submitted a fresh P-38L for the 82nd FG and I'm not so happy with it now. Tough to show dirt on a reflective skin though.
I definitely want to fly this sweet girl!
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Mus, thanks for the suggestion, but as Krusty mentioned it might not be appropriate for this particular plane, but I certainly like your weathering.
Oboe, dirty girls, are always more fun.
Thanks everyone for their suggestions, help and time.
JR <S>
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Im going to have to agree with Mus on this one. A freshly painted Mossie will look great in real life. But in a game, like AH, it just looks bad IMO. Looks too cartoonish for me. FTJR, youve done a great job with your skin so far. I would like to see the plane with a little bit of weathering, even though in real life, it wouldve been clean as a whistle.
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FTJR, im not saying you have to dirty her up. I'm saying it might change the look if you add panel line shadings.
Example, dont look at the shadow but just the shades between rivets and panels, its not dirt but just the static shadow/highlight between panels.
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8646/shadesh.jpg)
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As a counter-point to Mus, I would like to point out the difference between bare metal and aluminum paint.
Bare:
(http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/BBS%20Stuff/B-25-3s.png)
Clearly appears as you suggest.
Painted:
(http://www.azcaf.org/images/aircraft/TB-25N_Mitchell/closeup_nose_sm.JPG)
Very bland. No panel shades, variations, no rivets to show (which the mossie wouldn't have much of to begin with, I guess).
Images taken from the BMF/painted thread here:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,289514.0.html
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Plazus, thanks for the reply, I see I changed some things suggested by you on page 2 but didn't acknowledge that, sorry. In regards to the weathering, did Mus's illustration work for you?
Mus, Im looking into the reference material to see what panels there are, and though I haven't looked for awhile I believe the mossie was put together in 2 halfs like a model aeroplane, basically there are very few panels, and what there are will be on the wings.
Krusty's illustration of the differences is pretty good, thanks Krusty.
Im a bit busy with RL things atm, so will be slow to reply.
Again I appreciate the input guys.
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FTJR,
I think Mus does a good job of pointing out the weathering details when he edited your picture. I would try implementing something similar to what he is suggesting.
Now Krusty also brings up a good point too. Silver painted aircraft generally have a bland appearance with little weathering visible, especially on those that are freshly painted. Also, you may want to play with your specularity settings. I notice a few things between BMF and Silver paint with the following:
1. BMF has a very bright reflection when shown in light. However, the size of the reflection (area that is reflecting the light source) is small, and as such, gives it a mirror-like luster, and you can see the sun, light bulbs, or other sources of light as if you were looking into a mirror.
2. Silver paint has a different kind of "luster" or specularity assiciated with it. Reflections are not nearly as bright as BMF. Rather, the appearance will seem dull in comparison. But the size of the reflection (amount of surface reflecting light), is much larger, as the paint spreads light across the surface further than bare metal.
If you look at Krusty's images of the B25 that he posted further up in this thread, you will see what I mean. I think that you might be able to depict the specularity as mentioned above, and perhaps the silver painted Mossie wont look too cartoonish.
So essentially, you have two choices. You can either depict your skin as being a freshly painted Mossie on the first day it saw action. Or you can depict the Mossie after having flown several missions and collecting dirt, oil, and other weathering. Either way, there really is no right or wrong. Just use your imagination!
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Mus, Im looking into the reference material to see what panels there are, and though I haven't looked for awhile I believe the mossie was put together in 2 halfs like a model aeroplane, basically there are very few panels, and what there are will be on the wings.
You are correct.
This vid shows Mossies being built.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7cVvYdLeek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7cVvYdLeek)
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As a counter-point to Mus, I would like to point out the difference between bare metal and aluminum paint.
Bare:
(http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/BBS%20Stuff/B-25-3s.png)
Clearly appears as you suggest.
Painted:
(http://www.azcaf.org/images/aircraft/TB-25N_Mitchell/closeup_nose_sm.JPG)
Very bland. No panel shades, variations, no rivets to show (which the mossie wouldn't have much of to begin with, I guess).
Images taken from the BMF/painted thread here:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,289514.0.html
I was thinking the same thing about the rivets, since the things made of plyboard.
Did mossies have metal covered wings?